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Rav hirsch held that german jewry were tinokos shenishbu in his time too
Mdd, he isn’t giving license to do aveiros… That’s a misinterpretation
Jack, tendler is misunderstanding the pro life position among goyim, and is extrapolating from rav Moshe. He’s also contradicting himself. In the first piece he says not to get involved at all, even if it’s a clear violation of the 7 mitzvos. Later he says that he’s not getting involved because they are advocating what he calls murder. For goyim, the jury seems to be out on whether or not they can kill the baby to save the mother. Is there a din rodef by goyim? Who knows
Bereshis bara elokim; an atheist per force denies a god in any form. Doing mitzvos because your father commands you is not a mitzvah, even though technically there’s a “metzaveh”
This thread is getting pointless. You’re trying to justify being kofer be’ikar, which chazal discuss quite a bit, with some empty verbiage
An atheist cannot believe in a commander, unless you mean he things that natural law mandates that he wear tefilin, which is the same as saying that the earth god or the sun god commands him to
Marx; good question. I’ve never met a rosh yeshiva who has said that American frei are not to be treated as tinokos shenishbu.
Israelis are where it gets thorny. Some go with rav shloml zalman and say that they have ample exposure in our time. Others go with the chazon ish, that we’re on a very low level of torah and can’t properly teach it to the point where one is no longer a tinok shenishba simply by hearing about the torah and seeing us keep it. The majority go with the chazon ish, in my experiences, with some (mostly brisker) either going with rav shlomo zalman or saying it’s a safek.
Jonathan sacks o.b.m., was not a posek. He was a theologian rabbi speaker person. His statements do not establish anything except his own opinions. They definitely do not determine what is a living thing and what is not
As has been noted, there is a degree of question among achronim as to the status of an uber/fetus. That being said, in practical halacha, the great tzitz eliezer should not be counted together with rav moshe. They were simply in different universes. A psak from the tzitz eliezer when compared to the ineffably vast torah depth and bredth of רשכבה”ג maran rav moshe, is not counted.
Ujm… sorry, but the chazon ish is just as (actually, more, because he was earlier) big of a towering figure as rav shlomo zalman.
You can text me on a regular phone number too if you know my number; i should have specified
Just for the record, נשים רחמניןת refers to eating children who already passed away
You’ve yet to bring a single source for any of your statements.
I agree that being a chosid is a madrega, and that a simple jew can do simple mitzvos. But simple mitzvos include believing in, fearing, and loving Hashem. There is a minimum of those mitzvos, but such thinfs are obligations on some level.
The mishnah berurah brings lehalacha that one cannot pursue gashmius without a constructive purpose, as it violates an asei of ve’ahavta. That’s a minimum for every jew.
“even the nost far out atheist can be a committed jew”
“My entire post was belief in mitzvos! How did you miss that?!?
That’s how i “missed” it. You said you can be a committed jew, a “basic” jew, while being an atheist, a denier of the creator and giver of the mitzvos that he professes to do.
Interject; it’s the same with the gangster. He would not have made the decision to join the crips if he knew how it woild hurt his conscience. Does that make his murder ok?
And i stand by what i said regarding celebrations. If the issue is removing something unwanted due to emotion stress that’s no mlre significant than a wart, then why not celebrate? If it’s a life, then it’s murder, and if it’s not a life, whats wrong with throwing a party that now that this clump of flesh js gone i can go to scho, larties, and make it happen all over again!
Whatsapp is enclosed; you can speak to and hear from only people whose phone number you have.
You should however, avoid groups containing anybody and everybody.
If they were the kind of arabs that were before zionism that is
User – who put us in a situation where we need an army? Let them take care of it; we couldn’t care less if arabs ran the place
Who cares about how racist something is, and who cares about a murderer wanting to get ahead in life?
Take out mother and insert gangster.
“A young black man joins a gang at 18 to earn money to support his family. In doing so, he begrudgingly has to kill an innocent person here and there…but he’s just a poor black man trying to support himself and his family….”
I stand by my connection that this kefirah is the product of an attempted treatment of OCD, mixed up chabad education, and a topping of know-it-all, smarter-than-thou egotism.
And of course ample doses of api(courses), and online blogger wisdom
Doesn’t justify murder – there’s really no middle ground. If something is murder, it’s bad and only can be justified if the baby is a rodef.
If it’s not murder, then go and celebrate it like the idiots on tiktok who make abotion parties r”l, where there are balloons which say instead of “it’s a boy” “it’s a b..ortion”
Interject; so a career is more important than a baby’s life?
Black women are biologically more likely to die in child birth? Source? Maybe it’s because they don’t seek health care and have babies at home, which is societal and can be fixed.
In any case, abortions to save the mothers life are extremely, astronomically rare, even for black women. And it’s allowed in every state that bans abortion.
If a woman is old enough to get pregnant she’s old enough to be taught to not do the immoral things that cause it. Her parents must keep an eye on her.
My initial list re tendler was a little over the top; I’ll rephrase.
Tendler backed banning metzitzah bepeh. He has no problem getting the government involved when it’s something he wants done. When it’s something that doesn’t bother him much, such as abortion, he gives the slippery slope argument that it will lead to the govt interfering with mitzvos….like milah.
Lashon, i never said chilul shabbos is not allowed for saving one’s life – it not only is allowed, it’s necessary and one who refuses to be mechalel shabbos for pikuach nefesh is considered a shofech damim.
However, al pi din we would not be mechalel shabbos normally for a person who does not keep shabbos, because the rationale of “break one shabbos so that he will keep many more” does not spply.
For goyim there’s literally no reason in the world to, but hatzolah does because if they don’t there will be hatred among goyim and they will not save us. This was a takanah of the vaad arba aratzos in the times of the shach.
Ever read chovos halevavos? Ever heard of the title?
What you describe is yeshayahu Leibowitz, pretty much copied and pasted. It is really your contention that if a jew keeps shabbos out of fear of communal reprisal but denies Hashem, that he is a “good jew”?
Mordechai kaplan said that one does not need to believe in Hashem to be a good jew. He was the founder of reconstructionist judaism; sounds like you and him would really hit it off.
Rav hirsch put other frum jews in cherem for espousing hererical beliefs regarding the definition of torah shebaal peh, including rav azriel hildeshimer.
The torah is repleat with exhortation after exhortation to love, fear, and obviously believe in Hashem. The mitzvos are meant to bring us to that state, and express those feelings as well.
Reform believed that only faith in god matters, and that Hashem doesn’t care what you do as long as it’s not hurting anyone. Conservative believe that Hashem cares a little about both. Reconstructionism said you can be a good jew without God.
Orthodox judaism requires belief and practice. Lo sasuru, a laav you probably don’t like very much, is violated, as in, Hashem cares about it, as in, a person burns in gehinnom for it, every time a heretical thought is entertained. Acharei levavchem zu minus.
If Hashem only cares about mindless actions, why is tefilah belo kavanah like a guf without a neshoma? Why does Hashem punish us tachas asher lo avadta….besimcha…merov kol, why does Hashem care if we serve him with joy and will punish us severely if we don’t…if all that matters are going through the motions?
During the war with amalek, why did it matter that klal yisroel were meshabed es libam, subjugated their heart to Hashem? Shouldn’t they win because they were doing the mitzvah of fighting the war, no matter what was going through their mind.
Mitzvos tzrichos kavanah is a machlokes. However one thing is clear; we don’t answer amen to the bracha of, say hamotzi, made by a known idol worshipper, because he beloeves in AZ.
Rav hutner makes an important point in his rebuttal to the common practice in chabad of putting tefilin on the oblivious heads and arms of frei people. He says that even if you hold mitzvos do not require kavanah(the jurys out on that one, it’s not resolved, which further disproves your “yiddishkeit” sweeping statements), it does require for you to be aware of the mitzvah that’s being done. Someone who does not believe in the mitzvos, wherher due to ignorance or kefirah, cannot do them, because there’s no such thing as a mitzvah without a metzaveh.
“Above all things, guard your mind/heart, for from it comes life” according to you, life comes from the body doing the actions.
The mesilas yeshorim explains, and I’m quoting this word fkr word: created the world to bestow upon His creations perfection, shlaimus, to be in a state where one can behold the shechina and enjoy it. The tools that bring one to this state are the mitzvos. The place where this experience is felt is olam haba. On this world, we experienced it too in the form lf dveikis “veani, kirvas elokim li tov’. That is the only good, to be close to Hashem. The opposite, aveiros and materialism, bring a person far from Hashem. According to you, eating and being materialistic is perfectly fine as long as you put on cow hides with scrolls in them, wear fringes on your 4 cornered garments and eat meat slaughtered in a special way.
The lengths you go to contrive a non existent yiddishkeit are baffling. Is this perhaps something a therapist recommended when you had problems with emunah, maybe OCD? To just do it anyway and not think about philosophy? It’s good advice for such conditions, maybe, but it’s not normal avodas Hashem.
Notably missing from your definition of judaism is one single source, pasuk, rishon, acharon, or chazal.
Why is risking one’s life, which he would have done to save goyim too, any more important than keeping shabbos?
Does Hashem tell us in the Torah to risk our lives for others as the highest form of heroism? Isn’t there a machlokes if one is even at all permitted to do so?
Isn’t fighting the true enemy, the yatzer hora, a greater achievement?
The OP sounds authentic
The chazon ish disagreed wirh rav shlomo zalman. I don’t know what he would say today that there are so many more charedim and lehavdil datiim
Solid food i could hear, but liquids get swallowed inevitably. Smells fishy.
Tinok shenishba….
If so, he’s no more deserving of honor than a baby.
Rav moshe (and many other gedolim) were opposed to things like mandating teaching religion in public schools, and other religious issues. Murder is not like that, it’s a basic requirement of the 7 mitzvos which are binding, as is Dinim, the imperative to make laws that enforce the other 6. Tendler would also probably not be in favor of opposing abominable marriages, even though they were the cause of the mabul and would put us all in danger.
Afra lepumei.
Aha…. more extrapolation from igros tendler. That’s the “source”.
There’s no way rav Moshe said it. His son in law and grandson-in-law have spread numerous falsehoods in his saintly name.
Halevi, chabad enjoys its exclusivity, claiming (as manu cults do) that “you just don’t understand because you’re not chabad”
I’ve learned chasidishe seforim for over a decade, including tanya. Never saw a piece about rebbe worship, him running the world, or that you can pray to him at a kever and it’s not doresh el hamaysim because he’s the essence of god wrapped in a body.
I’ve seen a lot of things i don’t understand, but those are things that are not meant to be understood, they’re just plain AZ
I never said I’m a tzadik; pretty far from a tanya-esque beinoni too.
Doesn’t change the arguments i made; that’s just ad hominem, so too with the sam hamaves line
Most of my rebbeim are no longer living, but when i do something i don’t preface it by davening to them that i should find favor before them in my work. I hope that they are seeing whatever good i do and are having nachas
Pregnancy is hard. Yes, but murder is worse, actually, a lot worse. And halacha says that by goyim it’s 100% murder.
I have no sympathy for women who, 99% of the time due to lack kf self control and irresponsible, immoral choices, wind up saddled with unwanted children.
edited
Nome – invoking zchusim from the avos is something we do everyday. Malachim are a bit controversial; i.e. machnisei rachamim, but that’s not relevant here – those tefilos always are that the malachim bring our tefilos to Hashem.
I was not referring to likutei sichos’ quality per se, and seforim aren’t “reading material”. The yeshiva worlds seforim are very different from anything even in mainstream chabad, so I don’t see the comparison at all. Rav Belsky held that the sefer isn’t a sefer.
“Bzchus adonainu bar yochai”
Lekovod hatana eloki, rabi shimon bar yochai ”
Where in lag baomer liturgy is there even a request to him at all?
Kuvult, i addressed your concern about teachers above. It’s far from a given that we readily employ non frum teachers. I know menahelim who prefer non jewish teachers, because they’re respectful of the institution moreso than non frum or left wing MO.
As far as being concerned with what jews believed in, the rambams Moreh, hilchos deos, and shemoneh prakim are full of exactly what he held a jew should believe, and the consequences of not doing so, i.e. apikorsus. The rambam held that corporealism, even unintentionally, disqualifies one from olam haba. Clearly he cared and held that Hashem cares about what we ordinary Jews have in our heads. Some of us may have brains rhat are a rishus harabim, but that’s not the way it’s supposed to be.
Ts, before doing mitzvos we say vehi noam – that Hashem should find our service fitting and proper and should bless our efforts, that we should serve Him the way He wants us to.
Opening q religious event with a request that we find favor before the lubavitcher rebbe, is very very different than a speaker saying at, say a siyum hashem “rav Meir shapiro is looking down on us with such nachas”
One is a request, which only Hashem can and should answer, and the other is a sentiment.
My main avodah zara point was cunin’s rebbe running the world bit.
Nomesorah, while there is a small distinction, it’s not as stark as you describe. Having non frum teachers is very bedieved, and only as a matter of last resort. Go ask any menahel about who they choose for English teachers – unfortunately good frum English teachers (for boys’ schools) are rare.
The heter for having such teachers is that they’re in a jewish school and are accountable. They’re subordinate to the guidelines and standards of the school, although i know many, many students who were influenced regardless. I know of a certain English teacher who convinced many boys to go to college against the wishes of their parents and rebbeim, and that’s just the tip of the iceberg.
Here, there’s no one on top of them, as the situation was described as a non-denominational group of kids, some happened to be frum, some weren’t, and there’s a coach who will say heaven knows what to the kids. He might use foul language. He might shmooze with them about girls they have crushes on and encourage it. That’s just the first two examples that come to my head.
“Abortion laws that decide who lives and who dies, are far more abhorrent than allowing mothers choices”
You really like reduction fallacies. Remove “mothers choice” and insert “voluntary disembowelment and dismemberment of innocent unborn children”
Sounds different, no?
So when the rambam, rav saadya, ramban, and others discussed notions of Hashem, they were being simpletons?
Yserbius, where does rav moshe supposedly say not to oppose abortion? I’ll believe it when I see it, or when pigs fly , both of which have the same chances of happening
Does your view on chabad include throwing likutei sichos out without genizah?
Does it include not eating meat or ( wine, he was clear about that) withoit investigation?
Halevi, chelek eloka mimaal is discussed a lot in seforim. That statement does not say “the world will see that it’s the rebbe who runs the world”. You don’t need to be introduced with preconceived notions to see why that’s out of bounds. It’s not jumping to conclusions or taking it out of context. There’s no context for that belief.
Similarly, at the council of shluchim, one of the organizers began with a vehi noam, that “the rebbe should look down and we should find favor before him”
They pray to him. Many, many do; even non-meshichisten. Nobody ever prayed to the arizal, maggid, baal hatanya, ledushas levi, or anyone else. It’s avodah zara. Period.
So now we go from tolerating non frum or objectionable friends and their families…to having role models who lead lives devoid of Hashem. Seriously? You’re proud of a kid gettinf guidance, submitting, and learning from a person without Torah?
Firstly, that’s shelo kadin. Shulchan aruch says openly that we cannot send our kids to learn a trade from goyim, because they will be influenced.
It’s shocking, and i don’t get shocked easily on this forum.
The fact that supposedly “yeshivishe” people do something means absolutely nothing if it’s shelo kadin.
When did i say that goyim can’t conquer and own land? They can, even though it might not be allowed according to many (we had a thread on this a while back).
On a minute -by-minute basis, a secular jew commits one sin after another. Every time he eats, lives in rooms without mezuzos, every day without tefilin/shma/davening, every shabbls desecrated, every marrital relation an issur kares, every wall in the street full of forbidden gazes
A sin is an action, thought or speech against halacha. Or is it just stealing and cheating on taxes?
“an empty life full of sin”
No torah, equals no value, equals emptiness. Not keeping the torah equals sinfullness.
Is it possible to be sin free and close to hashem(fulfillment, actual fulfillment, not self righteousness) without the Torah? Is the torah “extra credit”?
Coffee, we have to keep halacha, so do goyim. Behani kavshei derachmana lama lach; who are we to decide who dies and lives?
Chizkiyahyu was severely punished for refraining from having children after seeing beruach hakodesh that they would be ovdei avodah zara.