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Jewish shmad state at it again
Rabbi yaakov feitman has an amazing, well sourced article on the rogotchover that was published in the Jewish observer. He mentions my statement that moreh is entirely torah based
Yabia, there is still a divide between the baladi, who still keep original rambam-based halacha, and shami community, which adopted shu”a. They get along fine socially; they have a beis hillel/bais shamai dynamic.
We can’t bemekabel things from any group which contravene our mesorah; the fact that they’re an ancient community notwithstanding.
AAQ; please provide a source for…. Everything? The rogotchover was a chabad chosid, he was far from “rationalism” in the context of how maskilim and quasi maskilim attempt to besmirch the heiligeh rambam.
The rogotchover was famous for saying that everything in moreh nevuchim is in chazal, that the rambam didn’t copy from or was influenced by the philosophers that he used to articulate his hashkofos.
Ujm, maybe he ate a big portion of salty lox and herring: should do the trick
Ujm, he did, and rav gifter said that the rambam says that when you’re in a spiritually impure society, the only recourse is to go to the caves – so he’s praising us as talmidei horambam!
Perhaps then, according to the nameless “yesh omrim” in rabbi breitowitz’s view, it would be “shev ve’al taaseh adif”, since eirher side can potentially inflict us with anti-halachik problems
Jack, So far, the only concern raised is that a suicidal person might kill herself rather than bear the innocent child of a criminal. Some poskim call that pikuach nefesh. The other side is that suicide is a capital offense and that normally speaking, we don’t sit shiva for such a person. We’re essentially advocating the mother commit murder of her child to stop her from commiting murder on herself. I admit that this is a machlokes, and that while the 2nd opinion rings true for me, i can respect those who disagree.
What i do not admit to is the way you chose that one line; he was not being medayak in his choice of words, because the plain meaning is nomesorah’s splitting of torah from politics, which you are agreeing is not the case. We both agree that rabbi breitowitz was speaking about halacha above everything, not that your political views can be independent of halacha, but that in order to protect halacha, *there are those that say*, as he ends off with, that we shouldn’t oppose roe v wade because it’s possible to run into a situation where secular law will prohibit us from keeping halacha.
Ujm’s argument is strong; whicu halachos are we concerned with? He makes us question our negius – are we worried about the suicidal mother(which is extremely rare – less than 1% of abortions are due to rape or incest even by goyim, certainly in the frum world where such things are rarer..) more than, say, haba bemachtere? Or is there a negius involved.
I’d argue the other way, that not opposing it opens the door to the pro abortion extremists permitting the killing of babies after delivery. Are we not to be concerned with a Jewish mother with severe post partum depression having regret and wanting to “abort” when her baby is delivered? I honestly think that’s a more realistic concern and would happen more frequently than the suicidal mother.
My point about rabbi breitowitz is clear though; whatever ideas people want to cram into that one sentence is intellectual dishonesty. Listen to the shiur, you’ll see what he says.
No rosh yeshiva advocates an ideology where torah is not complete primacy and that everything else is subservient to dvar Hashem zu halacha.
Nomesorah – any sources that would say to separate politics from “religion”? Or is it that we’re looking from the outside of Judaism now, as “higher criticism” would demand? And that it is us thinkers who are determining the appropriate limits of “religion”?
For a torah jew, there’s no such thing as something “outside the purview of torah” because Hashem created the world through it; everything in the world is a reflection of that Torah, hafoch bo vehafoch ba dekulah boh
Reform said to seperate religion from…. culture, politics, basically everything outside of shul. That’s where you’re headed when you place artificial limits on what Hashem has to say on a given issue.
Re, politics affecting halacha – i agree (wow!) With this to an extent, as we see zionist rabbis routinely mix their politics into their “psakim”, such as sacrificing Jewish life for a state, converting goyim who maintain the arbitrary Israeli standard of traditional observance, skirting shmitah, terumos and maasros (but yishuv eretz yisroel is the biggest mitzvah….just were going to be extremely lenient in ita mitzvos, but pay no attention to the man behind the curtain…)
Where we differ is that if you are first a big person in learning, politics will not affect your halachik jurisprudence. Rav miller was very political, but it was entirely based on his learning. It’s the same risk of learning secular studies; the extent to which it will affect you depends on how much you’ve honed yourself as a product of your learning, how much of your daas is daas torah (which is how reb elchonon defines the term ‘daas torah’, a cumulative, quantifiable measure of how much of your thinking process is fueled by torah)
This is why true gedolei yisroel rejected politically advantageous movements like mizrachi, when they were fraught with hashkofa problems.
People were much less beurocratic back then…i believe the story
Jack, i don’t think you read what I wrote. Your understanding of rabbi breitowitz is misleading and wrenched out of context. He clearly says that wanting halacha to be the law is the ideal, and that *some can argue*, that the practical issue of possibly letting a suicidal woman die from an abortion outweighs that gain.
He isn’t saying “don’t mix politics and halacha” in principle. He misspoke. I took the time to listen to the shiur; he is not saying that you’re entitled to believe one way politically absent halacha. He’s saying that halacha mandates the preservation of life of suicidal mothers. (Not everyone would agree to that, actually) and even then he doesn’t even agree that such a position is viable, just that such an argument can be made.
AAQ, that’s exactly the misunderstanding of rabbi breitowitz that jack is claiming. Listen to the piece, that sentence was not meant that way at all.
Rabbi breitowitz, also, kevodo benakomo omedes, is not rav moshe feinstein. Nor is he rav avigdor miller, who advocated endlessly for the pro life movement.
Listened to it – he says that advocating the prohibition of abortion is the “pashut pshat”, that we should do. He then expresses another viewpoint, “one can make an argument” – without saying that he agrees with it at all – that there’s a danger of goyim going too far and prohibiting abortion when halacha would allow it, namely if a woman is suicidal where he deems it pikuach nefesh(venimuko imo, many hold that it is pikuach nefesh)
He ends it with saying clearly “Many people would say that’s wrong”Tl/dr, you took that one line WAY out of context and your statement is motzi shem ra on rabbi breitowitz. He didn’t mean that we shouldn’t apply halacha in theory, but rather that we need to – in the argument he presents but DOES NOT necessarily agree with, worry about the secular law infringing on halacha.
Big difference.
Jack, how exactly does that make sense?
You also can’t have your cake and eat it too; you and others discuss halacha as it suits your goal, then shift to this separation of church and state mentality when backed into a corner.
Would you mind sharing with us what he says? He’s a respected person, i doubt he said that you can vote against halacha.
TS, it’s mostly accurate; a drop over the top based on my experiences with chabad, but only just
Duvid – I’d like to meet a yeshiva that turns a profit; outside of endowed MO schools, no yeshiva makes money.
Arkansas – Act 309, 5-61-401, et seq., which prohibits all abortions save those necessary to save the life of the mother.
Alabama 13A. Criminal Code § 13A-13-7 unless the same is necessary to preserve her life or health and done for that purpose, shall on conviction be
Oklahoma Tit. 63§§1-730 to 741; 21§§713 to 714; 21§861; 21§684taking life of viable fetus unless necessary to preserve life, health of mother
Mississippi; shall be guilty of a felony unless the same were done by a duly licensed, practicing physician:
(a) Where necessary for the preservation of the mother’s life;I’m not going to read every states code, because i don’t have that much free time. Every random state i read on the list of states that have trigger bans and that are set to ban abortion have this on the books.
Please provide information to the contrary, asi have invested time already in providing evidence against your statement.
Ujm, the karowai in Indonesia is one example; another is Brazil, where people sometimes eat human remains after death out of desperation.
Ujm, to be fair, cannibalism is practiced in many backward places besides Africa, including eastern countries. It used to be found in some parts of Europe too.
They mention the big three, and some say mother’s health, which is not a legitimate reason
Amil, all information I’ve found online(looked at pro murder sites too, like guttmacher (what a name!) make mention of allowing abortions for “the big three” exceptions, two of which are not very reasonable, as explained, but saving the mother’s life is always on the list.
It just is. Can you provide information from a credible, non social media hack source to the contrary?
Er, we concern ourselves with the actions of our surrounding host countries for three reasons. One is kovod shomayim – lesaken olam bemalchus shakai – we want the world to keep Hashem’s laws, and this is included undeniably in the 7 mitzvos. We care when others sin, because while goyim may not have the same spiritual impact as we do, their actions still should be in line as much as possible with Torah, for Hashem’s honor.
The 2nd reason is that society affects us. “Rak ain yiras Hashem”, avrohom said when he was travelling in gerar. We don’t want to live in a society which condones infanticide, same sex marriages, , edited any other evil that is forbidden to goyim as well as us. We want to shield ourselves from influence, as you can see many posters here copy and paste their attitudes straight from feminism and western values.
3rd, oy lerasha and oy leshecheino. If Hashem punishes the goyim for infanticide, and we happen to live here, we will not be spared. Especially if we had the chance to protest, as chazal say(avodah zara 18a) “one who has the ability to protest but does not is punished on his account(the one who sins)”
Ubiq – question. If you saw a detailed video of a 2nd trimester fetus, with its organs, its heart beating, its brain firing neurons, its limbs developing…would you crush its skull, sever its spinal chord and dismember him?
I’m just wondering if you have that in you, because if it’s not technically a nefesh for yidden, it’s still a baby to our senses, and it takes a ruthless murderer to kill it.
For goyim it’s called a nefesh anyway, so your statement is just plainly against the pasuk. Just flat out ignorance.
Mainstream pro life legislation nowadays allows for abortions to save the mother, which is the only really necessary circumstance that halacha would (for Jews, not clear for goyim) mandate it as a necessity.
If we’re going to get into preferences, as in, if someone (insert italics) wants to rely on the tzitz eliezer (which I don’t think would be allowed since rav moshe was mara de’asra) in cases of deformities…nu nu, so you won’t be able to. You’ll have to bring a neshoma into the world. It’s not the kind of thing we’d fight about. We don’t believe in “rights”.
It’s better than the alternative of permitting goyim to do what is considered flat out, capital offense murder, since that’s all they’ve been doing. As stated, there are no states that are pushing the old hard line Catholic nonsense stance(most goyim are not Catholic) about the baby being purer etc. The states that have banned abortion ALWAYS allow it in cases where the mothers life is at risk, which for yidden is the only exception MANDATED by halacha. Again, we shouldn’t care about the whims and mere desires of people when the alternative is to allow infanticide.
Is abortion not “violent” too? They crush skulls, sever spines, and if the baby miraculously survives this “health care”, they let it die outside the womb, writhing in pain because they won’t put it in a simple incubator. Because someone else chose that this baby shouldn’t be allowed to live. It’s evil, and the word you were looking for is retzicha, murder.
Ujm, if that were true, he wouldn’t have to call out trolls multiple times a day. He would just certify non trolls, and all else would be trolls by default
Why is the emotional well being of one person more important than the literal life of another, innocent person?
If someone’s bullying me and causing me emotional harm, does that give me a right to kill and dismember them?
The only rechitzah involved is that she wants to wipe her hands clean of the “problem”.
It’s a tragedy if someone is assaulted. Likewise, if someone gets robbed, it doesn’t entitle them to take someone else’s money.
The pregnant victim was wronged, but that has no bearing on her bearing a child. Don’t punish the child for the crimes of his father.
Such cases also account for less than 1% of abortions.
Ujm, agreed, but the fact that there are more out of towners coming in than vice versa doesn’t mean that the influence of in towners is less; they’re often yeshivaleit and bring a lot of Torah with them. There are community kolelim which are usually lakewood talmidim; their kids go to school there, and the community changes. Actually, that’s probably why manu OOT people move to lakewood and NYC, because they want to go to top yeshivos.
It’s because OOT yeshivos and bais yaakovs are being increasingly influenced by in towners who move out from Lakewood and Brooklyn
One of the avos davened that people should not doe suddenly,but should first get sick so that they can put their affairs in order(and do teshuva).
Or maybe he left because of the mixed kiddush and blatant violation of tznius, or if he came a few decades ago, he would certainly leave because of the mixed dancing
So maybe go into it and charge a little less interest than the rest
Yeshiva bochurim get very uncomfortable with theological discussions; we don’t teach a lot of it, and we stress that emunah is fragile.
Chabad are open to just about anything.
Their notions of Hashem which you mentioned (planner, maintainer, creator, etc) i agree that they share – except that they then apply them in some degree to their rebbe. They won’t tell you that, but ask them if the rebbe helps them, hears their prayers, and knows everything that happens in the world.
Puk chazi
Yserb; as was pointed out, the question of christianity was one of if shituf applies to goyim, or not. No one ever said it’s not shituf or that it’s compatible with monotheism. As was also pointed out, everyone agrees it is yehereg velo yaavor for a jew. Christian theology since the council of nicea has always held of the trinity. It was only recently that a small group called Unitarian Christianity started, where they believe yushke was a prophet, but not in any way divine. Christians don’t have much uniformity, but the trinity is one area(unfortunately) that they all agree to. Far less than 1% of all christians are unitarians.
“Marx was in favor of achieving that at least partially through the cruelty of withholding charity.”
Source?
Marx (2008b, 83–4)
“Feminism further sought to break women of the bonds of motherhood and matrimony, even against their own will.”
See simone de Beauvoir’s repulsive anti family filth.Nomesorah has yet to provide one source to this supposed Torah view that beliefs aren’t important or integral, and that one can be a good jew if he denies Hashem.
No established society would accept communism by choice. It needs to be foisted on them. Marx was in favor of achieving that at least partially through the cruelty of withholding charity. He said only if the workers are desperate will they accept change. Feminism further sought to break women of the bonds of motherhood and matrimony, even against their own will. They need to be shown the light even if they oppose it, and only then will they be “free”.
Stalin simply entorced communism by force, as every creator of every communist state has done. That’s what happened in china, vietnam, north korea, cuba, and elsewhere. Those who fall in line are fine, but if you resist “the people’s movement”… well, we all know what happens, don’t we?
Much like zionism, communism sought to right perceived wrongs. Zionism aimed on the surface to stop antisemitism, but it was really after making a new Jew in the form of nordic land worship and european nationalism – the same philosophy which spawned Nazism, as it were.
Communism seeks to right the wrong of the oppressed majority of working families, to wrest control from the elite minority who live in comfort.
Until it is they who live in comfort with the masses in tribute to them.
Hayom…im bikoli tishma’un**
Hayom…im bekolo tishma’un
Just go through mishnayos kesuvos and kidushin..why post about it one way or another.
Nomesorah; they’re allowed their opinions and we’re allowed to indirectly kill them under normal circumstances.
Even now, we don’t mourn them and we daven 3x a day for Hashem to “utterly destroy them”, in birchas haminim, the blessing of the heretics, whether they’re respectful or not.
Reshoim we daven to do teshuva. Apikorsim we daven should be eternally condemned. Their evil is a very different sort.
Moreh 1:36 re, atheism worse than avodah zara
Why do chazal care about the (unfortunately common) refrain of people who aren’t machshiv learning, saying “what do those rabbis benefit us? They learn for themselves” chazal say that they are apikorsim because learning benefits the world, im lo brisi, chukos.shomayim vearetz lo samti
Mdd, doubting the idolatry of Christianity is not as bad as thinking that one can keep the Torah while denying Hashem, since the rambam says that atheism is worse than avodah Zara
Yet for some reason the breslov moshav of yavna’el has never BH seen a terror attack. Doesn’t really fit with the narrative you’re describing
One of my rebbeim wouldn’t drive a German car; my father wouldn’t even use one if it were a rental.