AviraDeArah

Jack, it doesn’t matter what separation of church and state means to me. The reality is that no one in America spoke of it to mean that American law is completely secular until atheism became popular in the 20th century. Schools had prayers, public places had biblical imagery, there were blue laws, and judges would sometimes quote the Bible (once even the gemara).

The first amendment doesn’t say that the country needs to be atheistic. It says that congress (not even the states…. that’s a separate issue; theoretically a state could be Christian, Muslim, etc..) shall not establish a national religion. The US cannot be a chrsitian country, but it can use christian principles, or other religious principles.

Again, the phrase “separation” was not ever once mentioned in the first amendment or tue constitution. Please do some cursory research and challenge the common perception that you heard in 5th grade civics class. It’s simply not true.

Mods, it’s well known that rabbi soloveitchik taught girls classes in gemara; when i said im being dan lekaf zchus, i explained why i think he would do it and not be in flagrant violation of halacha – aaq said we should take his actions at face value, which would be an indictment.

I’m sorry, my point was just not to take his words as is without checking. As you will see in his new posting, it is not what Rabbi Soloveichik said at all.

Jack, you’re repeating the same statement about separation pf church and state. It is not in the constitution or the 1st amendment. It’s sole mention in old American literature was in a letter. In recent decades, an increasingly secular culture and judiciary have applied it so much that most people assume it’s a constitutional principle. It isn’t, and the founding fathers did not have the image of a government devoid of religious concepts and morals.

Before repeating yourself again, do a quick google search.

My point about germany and the soviet union is to answer your concerns that “if we let the religious people spread their religion they’ll go after us.” It’s not just religious people that go after us, but secularists too; we are historically more likely to be targeted by secular abortionists than we are conservative Christian republicans. Secularists both on the left (soviet union) and on the right (the nazis) were worse to us than all of roman catholic christiandom.

The government in no way limited ivf; that’s a hospital’s decision. Why are you sounding the alarm on ivf and ignoring the death of millions of babies?

Aaq, i am trying to be dan lekaf zchus; otherwise, it is a sobering indictment on rabbi soloveitchik.

please do not accept random posts as fact

Halevi, being involved in academic studies do not prepare one for gemara. That’s falling into the trap that there’s a connection between the two; it’s just not true. There are 48 things which the mishnah says are necessary to understand Torah, and math and science, or just being intelligent, are not on the list. Torah study if done correctly is immersive, the production of svara, making proper diyukim, removing all preconceived notions… These are things that women are generally incapable of due to their nature, not just because women were not into academics until recently. Rav Moshe feinstein was fully aware of the state of the world when he said that women should not learn gemara; it’s a mistaken premise.

I also think the rambam is נחית to the yerushalmi, based on what i wrote above, that he says that no women have schar for torah shebaal peh, even though only “rov” women don’t have the capabilities to learn, and i think beruriah was the machriah.

Lamm was not a rabbi, he was an apikores, and rightfully called so by his peers who left YU in protest, including rabbi abba bronspiegel.

He didn’t write that math is important because it helps you understand sukkah. He said it’s important because all knowledge is important, and that it is all from his god. And no, you would not be able to make a bracha on math to learn sukkah, because it would be a hechsher mitzvah, upon which brochos cannot be recited.

I read the jachter article. He quotes not “rav henkin,” the gadol hador, but rather his extremely modern grandson, hertzl henkin (need i say more with a name like hertzl?) – the same unqualified “posek” who permits mixing genders and joined the “orthodox” feminists as a scholar in residence. The other posek he quotes is a zionist shu”t sefer, aseh lecha rav, which is full kf other deviant psakim. Then there’s rabbi yoshe ber and his brother – fine, so we have the modern Orthodox rabbis to prove the modern Orthodox perspective? Come on.

Da,i didn’t say that all of them equate the two. I said they compare them, which almost all do, because that’s how they justify teaching girls gemara. If there are modern orthodox jews who do not share this particular apikorsus – gevaldig.

Also, you’re well aware of norman lamms ideology and his statements about math requiring a birchas hatorah r”l. It is definitely a movement within modern Orthodoxy, though its more religious element does not accept it (though they don’t do a very good job at condemning it either)

Halevi, ok – not divrei havai, that’s the lashon harambam; the gemara’s lashon is tiflus. Is that any better?

As for your understanding of the yerushalmi, it’s missing daatan kalos – not only is there armah, which makes them able to hide their sins, they are daatan kalos and more easily persuaded to sin than men. And that’s a constant, axiomatic principle, to which even beruriah was not immune, as rashi tells us. She thought she was above that dictum, but rebbe meir showed her how she was not. Also chachma refers to Torah, not math and science.

And from that story, i believe that the rambam paskenex that no women at all, even the minority, havd schar for torah shebaal peh, because of the yerushalmi and the story with bruriah, even in the event that she’s from the minority which are not motzi divrei Torah ldivrei havai, because he does not qualify the “ain la schar” with anything – she, any woman, does not have schar, because she is putting herself in the same trap that ensnared bruriah.

And you’re falling into the trap of comparing secular studies to Torah. Take a look at the “serious” “teshuvos” written by women who study gemara. They’re a complete bizayon, degrees and all. Modern Orthodox jews like to compare Torah with science – they work differently, snd anyone who’s learned Torah b’iyun knows that

Jack, no one banned ivf – that’s twisting the situation. A hospital acted out of fear.

Promoting policies which prohibit abortions definitely increases kovod shomayim. Turning a blind eye or even, chas veshalom, supporting the abortionists, is a massive chilul Hashem.

And yes, religious countries were bad to us too. Everyone has been bad to us. But the ones who killed 6 million – more than all of the pogroms put together – and the ones who shmadded millions of jews in Russia, were secularists. That needs to be stressed.

Last time i checked the countries that did the most harm to judaism and jews were germany and the soviet union, both extremely secular….i guess supporting heresy and toeva because “maybe” they’ll go after jews isn’t how history works… because our job is to singularly pursue kovod shomayim without cheshbonos. Come what may.

Arso – precisely. I did not add that caveat about men because i didn’t want to distract from the thrust of the point, but yes, men are anusim mipnei hadin, forced by din to learn, whether or not they’re going to make divrei havai.

How many people can quote a line from rav ashi off the top of their heads?

Re, yiras shomayim being important in Israeli politics – a doctor doesn’t make decisions for a community, nor is he chosen as a representative.

A political office, especially in Israel, carries with it the inherent potential for kiddush or chilul Hashem.

CS, basically none of the chasidishe schools teach more than Chumash with Rashi, with lots of other seforim for mussar. Some chassidishe schools, including satmar, do not teach with Rashi, because that’s considered torah sheball peh according to them.

The litvishe are very maikil and will teach tons of meforshim on tanach, but will never teach mishnayos and gemara(except pirkei avos). They hold that anything used to understand torah she’biksav isn’t an issue.

The vast majority of ehrliche women throughout history were completely uneducated in seforim. According to you, did they all indulge in goyishe things? Chas veshalom! A girl who grows up knowing what their purpose is and who is taught the dangers of goyishe culture will not get involved in such things, whether they’re chasidishe or litvishe.

But some girls simply don’t keep what they’re taught. And if you want to start getting into anecdotal incidents…. those with glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. Have you seen what became accepted in crown heights in recent years? Are you aware of how many girls – and boys – who can rattle off sichos but are engaged in kol minei nivalah?

A woman’s ruchnius isn’t from learning. It’s from tznius, chesed and davening. Learning Torah accomplishes everything for a man; it does very little for women. Perhaps it can be an element of avodad Hashem, but there’s a reason why it is not a chiyuv – and we know that גדול המצווה ועושה, one who does what he is obligated to do is bigger than one who does something they’re not obligated to do. It’s a basic chazal; the enthusiasm women might have over learning could be the same kind of yatzer hora that makes men more interested in chessed than learning – it’s a yatzer hora.

CS, chabad are the ones who made a contest out of yiddishkeit. Do you ever use the phrase “kiddush Lubavitch”? It refers to things that glorify the name of chabad, not necessarily Hashem. Chabad engage in otherizing the rest of klal yisroel routinely – every opportunity to spread “chasidis” to people who can’t read Hebrew, instead of teaching basic Yiddishkeit, is seized.

Stories are constantly told of how Lubavitch missionaries or the Lubavitcher rebbe “saved the day,” to the complete exclusion of every other group in klal yisroel. Tell me, as a Lubavitcher, have you ever heard any stories about rav noach Weinberg’s kiruv activities? Have you ever heard of him at all? What about rav eliezer silver rescuing orphans from a christian compound after the Holocaust? Again, did you ever hear of his name? I’m betting not. Because if it isn’t Lubavitch, it isn’t worth mentioning.

“He helped Israel” – by his last act as president being to give Palestinians billions of frozen dollars, which he knew would go to Hamas?

“and is allowed to promote US interests in the region,” such as going on tours apologizing to the world for America?

“Lgbt and trans people exist.” So do child molestors. Your point?

Da, learning on their own is a different discussion. But teaching them in classrooms is clearly, universally forbidden.

Maybe sara schnirer did – i have no idea. Maybe she skipped those parts of the Chok; does it really make a difference? She never taught gemara or mishnayos to her talmidos, nor did she instruct her trained teachers to do so either. It’s not really an important issue.

And there were very, very few women who learned Torah throughout history. You can count them on one hand. The idea that it’s something women should aspire to when it was a very, very rare phenomenon that always accompanied intense spiritual devotion and impeccable tznius, has nothing to do with today’s women who want to learn gemara because “we can do it too” while wearing short sleeve and not covering their hair.

Re, niddah; it’s no different than when Rav went to farmers to learn about animals. It’s likely that within their learning which related to science, they had sfaikos, much like they had sfaikos in halacha pretty often. Sometimes those sfaikos result in a taiku.

Mdd, it’s in the rema in toras ha’olah cited earlier, maharal on beer hagolah, aruch hashulchan,maharsha in beginning of mi she’ochzu spells it out very clearly.

Re, niddah; like i said earlier, the mesorah is clear that we don’t ignore chazal and we don’t ignore science; gedolim have been reconciling chazal snd science for millenia. I’m not familiar with that particular gemara, but i can give many such examples, such as kinnim, where rav belsky explained that “coming from sweat” refers to the scientific fact that of all egg-laying species, only lice rely on outside materials to nurture the larvae. Just as worms that grow inside a fish are considered fish, since that’s all that they’ve eaten, so too lice are considered “sweat” because that’s how they derived the nutrients necessary to hatch.

So not only did chazal not contradict science, their statement shows a deep knowledge well beyond their era. Rav belsky had many, many such examples, but this approach is rooted in rishonim and achronim across the board.

If you want chazals which say that they knew all there is to know about science, there’s a statement about Shmuel knowing “shvilei derakiah” from the Torah, pesukim darshened for things like the gestation period of a snake…

Also see what i wrote above from rav chaim volozhiner about the gra’s knowledge of the scientific world, where he understood the nature of every limb of every aninal from one phat in one pasuk. Rav chaim also writes that the gaon once said that he could show philosophers all of creation and make them be machniah themselves to the chachmas hatorah.

So if chazal advocated for physical mussar in such terms, we would still do it nowadays. But they don’t. It’s in rishonim, who also do not give it any unconditional application. Therefore we apply conditions to those shitos – that’s besides the fact that the consensus of poskim appears to not be in accordance to those shitos.

So to recap:

Thus discussion, though a weak attempt at displaying my supposed hypocrisy, has nothing to do with chazal at all, as we are talking about not unqualified statements of rishonim.

Moreover, the halacha does not follow those rishonim.

Dofi, people change, hashkofa doesn’t.

Not only ineffective*

Dofi – here’s the Rambam you’re citing. It doesn’t say that the husband forces her, it says that the beis din does. And it’s not even referring to tznius, it’s talking about not fulfilling her domestic responsibilities. “Kofin” means “we” force her, lashon rabim.

שתמנע מלעשות מלאכה מן המלאכות שהיא חייבת לעשותן כופין אותה ועושה אפילו בשוט. טען הוא שאינה עושה והיא אומרת שאינה נמנעת מלעשות מושיבין אשה ביניהן או שכנים. ודבר זה כפי מה שיראה הדיין שאפשר בדבר

The Rambam likewise says that beis din forces men to fulfill their requirements to their wives.

Mod – my point was that force isn’t a bad thing in itself. Comparison wasn’t so great, but if something is advocated in the rishonim, who are we to say it’s objectively immoral? To be clear, i in no way think it’s acceptable in any circumstance for a spouse to strike one another, without exception, both because halacha doesn’t seem to follow those shitos and because it’s not only not effective but grossly harmful in our time.

CS… Very, very large groups of klal yisroel do not teach Torah shebaal peh to girls. Their numbers are far greater than Lubavitch. And they don’t tell girls that they’ll die for asking questions.

And wouldn’t you know it, just like everyone else who has problems, she was magically saved by your lord and savior. Have a problem ? Go to chabad. Are you a confused teenager struggling with normal challenges? Go to chabad, they’ll fix everything. Those fuddy duddy litvishe and chasidim are all close minded and don’t have our Lord and savior to guide them, and teach them how all of your problems will disappear if you talk to him and write him letters, which he sees because he’s everywhere; he’s actually the essence of god wrapped in a body, did you know that?

It’s a truly disgusting way of looking at the rest of klal yisroel, that we’re all broken and need your lord and savior for salvation.

There was another group who thought that way. Didn’t end very well.

Square, i disagree with the description of eggs on whatever list that’s from – scientists go back and forth every year or so on whether or not egg yolks are bad, if they increase “bad” cholesterol, or if they’re actually very healthy. The “one egg a day” idea is also constantly changing and is pretty outmoded. Eggs are a good source of protein if nothing else.