Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
The telz roshei yeshiva changed drastically shortly after the founding of the state. Rav gifter was very anti zionist, and said that his rebbeim had changed their shitos – originally they celebrated yom haatzamaut, but it did not last long.
Most of the rabbonim you quoted (besides rabbi yoshe ber, his brother rabbi aharon, and aharon Lichtenstein) did not believe in zionism – reb yaakov said that reading vayoel moshe had changed his perspective on zionism, for starters. But those who did show a certain amount of positivity were motivated by non-nationalistic kdeas. They felt it was a hatzolah after the Holocaust, that there was a safe place for jews (well, it wasn’t really safe, but that was the propaganda).
Re, reb yaakov – even early on, i heard from an old talmid who was fhere in 48. Rav shraga feivel mendelowitz had said that he didn’t know for certain, but that he thought the state might be linked to the geulah – he said he’d wait to see what the gedolei hador say. Rav yaakov said the next day that it was not at all linked to the geulah. Was there an ancillary benefit to the state? He and others held that we can express that view. Others held it’s harmful to say such things, but it is a total distortion to say that reb yaakov was any sort of zionist – he wasn’t.
Your post has many “proofs” from footnotes and artscroll books – talk to talmidim themselves, you’ll get a much clearer picture. I know about reb yaakov’s views because my rebbeim were talmidim of his; i really don’t care what “they” wrote about him.
It’s funny how you save the biggest names; the chazon ish and the brisker rov, as an afterthought – they were the gedolei hagedolim, the ones everyone else turned to. Rav desler, the ponevezer rov, the tzitz eliezer, would defer to them in a heartbeat. They don’t deserve to be a “yesh omrim”. You also omitted dozens of gedolei hador who were vocally opposed, including rav shimon shkop, rav boruch ber, rav chaim ozer, rav chaim brisker, the munkatcher rebbe, satmar rov, lubavitcher rebbes until the last one, the steipler, rav yosef chaim zonnenfeld, rav hirsch, the rogotchover gaon, rav dushinsky…off the top of my head. I can provide many more and sources for each if necessary.
Rav reuven grozovsky has a whole sefer against zionism, bayos hazman. He writes clearly what the agudahs stance(or rather, its gedolim’s stance).
A talmid told me once that rav hutner refused to go to the kosel because he agreed with the satmar rov. He also publicly removed rabbi kook’s picture from his Sukkah.The baba sali made a siyum on the vayoel moshe, calling the the sefer of the generation – publicly.
Rav ovadia was misled by menachem kasher’s forgeries in his teshuva permitting (not requiring) halel on YH. Many of the signatures on kasher’s placard were from rabbonim who had already been niftar. Rav ovadia was not at fault; he was tricked – this happens sometimes even to very big people.
I don’t believe that rav aharon called rabbi herzog the “sar hatorah”. Rav aharon held that making a state, even if it kept halacha, is assur because of the shavuos, as recorded in hapardes during the kenesiah gedolah in marienbad. Rav elchonon said the same, but he also wrote a whole sefer about it.
Where in chazal or rishonim is there even a hint that slavery is a vedieved, or lo dibra torah etc type of arrangement? Tannaim had slaves. Tzadikim who are beyond the grasp of tzadikim who we ourselves can’t fathom, had slaves. If there were anything conceivably wrong with it, the tzadikim would not have done it.
There were rabbis who felt a need to say such things because goyim decided all of the sudden that everyone’s equal and that owning a person is evil, arbitrarily. But there’s zero foundation in chazal or rishonim for such an idea.
When we understand that Hashem owns everything, and that the purpose of this world isn’t material success, and that everyone is a slave to something, whether it’s Hashem, the yatzer hora, a boss, or whatever else – everyone is a slave. That’s also the name of a very good historical novel on the subject that mostly accurately depicts hashkofo on slavery.
Where does rav hirsch say that you can only get an eved kanaani from someone who’s already a slave? That’s not the din. The halacha is that any goy can sell themselves to a jew as an eved kanaani.
“our actions as humans have consequences”
Does Hashem control everything that happens, or not?
Would those things happen regardless?
So many people don’t delve into… basic…jewish… theology. It’s really not very complicated. Read chovos helevavos. If you can’t, read the English version based on rav avigdor miller.
But judging from the knee jerk responses ignoring my thorough treatment of the subject with cries of “you’re selfish”, not “you’re wrong because sefer X says Y”, you have quite a long way to go emotionally before you can approach the subject.
edited
If police had done their jobs to protect citizens and property during the BLM riots, there would have been thousands of injuries and hundreds of deaths. As it is, the BLM riota killed dozens and caused billions of dollars of damage, not to mention the storming and destruction of federal property.
The protestors in the capitol never had a chance to overthrow the government, and the overwhelming majority of them had no interest in doing so either. There were some activists in the proud boys and oath keepers who had such fantasies, but there were only a few dozen of them.
The rest were mad, and were protesting. The capitol had been breached at least 6 times in US history, and never had a congressional inquiry investigating it.
The media constantly calls the riot “deadly”, when only one person – a trump supporter – was killed by police. Had police shot a BLM supporter….that cop would be in jail or dead by now.
People committing suicide, i.e. murdering themselves, because they can’t handle their jobs as policemen, is not the fault of rioters. I’m sure many cops killed themselves as a result of 2020 riots and widespread hatred of police. Many police have been killed by BLM supporters too. Why is none of this being investigated? Why are the rich people at the head of the organization not being at least audited?
Cultural/, ethical tikun olam = mainstay of reform judaism.
They won’t like you very much though, you’ll be too frum for them.
You’ve never dealt with the shailoh of how we can hurt ourselves if everything is min hashomayim?.
Take a look at rav avigdor miller’s hashkofa seforim, chovos halevavos shaar habitachon, and rav chaim friedlander (who presents the issues very systematically). The upshot is that for instance, playing in traffic on ocean parkway is a sin, so the person is punished for that sin by having the damage dealt ro him.
If someone attempts to poison someone else …here it gets complicated. No one can hurt you without it being a gezerah, ain odom nokev etzbo, etc. Yet a murderer is punished, even though no one can die without it being decreed on rosh Hashanah. The answer is that Hashem considers it as if you did it, because of your intention or negligence. This is how teshuva undoes the sin – it takes your portion, meaning your intention or negligence, out of the picture, and all that remains is the maysoh shomayim in the effect.
How a baal bechirah can affect you is discussed a lot by rav chaim friedlander. He says that his bechirah can bring you into a din torah in shomayim where they’re dan you in a stricter way than normal; he’s meorer dinim on that person by trying to hurt him.
Hence, poisoning the water can only affect others if it was decreed so , especially when it’s a rabim and not an individual. The poisoning would have happened without you, but you are held accountable for the ill intent.
When it comes to what the neviei sheker postulate… they’re not authoritative in deciding what’s a peshia/negligence. They’re political hacks who have no idea how the world works.
Ujm, many poskim (actually, I’ve yet to hear an opposing view) allow driving back or getting a ride from the hospital (preferably through a goy) because staying overnight at a hospital is dangerous, as there is a very high concentration of germs and risk of unusual infections, such as super bugs.
Who told you that the world is fragile? You’ve just devoured the claims of the climatologists – the same ones who predicted Armageddon when i was a kid, who said that by now there wouldn’t be coastal civilizations, etc.
Hashem runs the world through teva, but it is not our physical actions that change the world in teva – according to teva statistics in the 80s, the world’s population should not have anything to eat…but ma asah Hkb”h? He made more food available. The answer then wasn’t to, chas veshalom, listen to the statisticians and have less children.
We don’t have bechira to affect anyone else, let alone the world itself. That would undermine hashgocha. Perhaps wastefulness is an act of ingratitude, which itself might cause less bracha in the world as punishment for that sin, but the final outcome is totally bidei shomayim.
The fact that Hashem running the world and that our bechira doesn’t have independent consequences is “ridiculous” to you, only shows how much little you and almost everyone else here have been exposed to basic jewish hashkofa. I’m not saying any big chidushim here.
Reb E – i know that’s your intention, but by mechamer we are achrai on the totza’ah, that melacha shouldn’t be done by the animals, because we’re commanded on shvisas behemos. We don’t have a proof from there that akimas sefasayim is a maysoh.
Reb E, i think that’s because we’re mitzuveh on shvisas behemos. We don’t hold of shvisas keilim.
In my bochur days, one shabbos a fellow in the dorm left an iron on over shabbos. It was a potential sakanah, and we had no one to ask. We went to a fire department closeby to ask if they would do it, and to tell us if it was in fact dangerous – they laughed us off….so we decided among ourselves to make it a quadruple derabonon. One, unplugging electric appliances is derabonon according to most. Two, it’s melacha sheaina tzricha legufah. Three, we did it with a shinui…and the funniest addition was that we did it “shnayim she’asu” by having one guy put his toe on one side of the plug, and another put his toe on the opposite side, pulling it out together.
Rav Belsky chuckled at our bochurishe “ingenuity”, and said we did fine.
Cool shailoh with speaking to electronics. Do we say “akimas sefasayim” is a maysoh? Especially when it’s the derech to work the machine that way
That’s a misquote. It doesn’t say teshuva isn’t accepted. It says “ain maspikin beyado laasos teshuva”, shomayim doesn’t let him do teshuva. But if he really wants to, “ain dovor omed bifnei hateshuvah”, and he can do teshuva on the echteh ve’ashuv itself.
Rav ziemba’s view has been contested, but many others discouraged it. I don’t know about the two rebbehs you cited. Aby sources on it?
Reb E, a choleh has a heter, as above. Requiring CPAP would have that status (not saying you are a choleh for everything, just for that)
Gadol, if we aspire to be like a feminist who denies the torah… that’s not a madrega, that’s the opposite direction. And if that’s who you’re “aspiring” towards… where are you now and where are you headed?
Ish kefi mehalelo…a man according to his praise. From what a person praises, we see what they’re machshiv.
Yserb – I’m on the fence about gun laws; I don’t know what gave you the impression that I’m pro gun.
Mentsch, I’m referring to an organized reaction. By purim, the reaction was not to form an army and fight, it was to daven and do teshuva – and it worked.
Chanukah, when protecting Torah, our job is to fight first.
Putting up some sort of self defense when attacked directly is a different story. No need to lay down and be killed unless we’re talking about kidush Hashem.
The warsaw uprising was discouraged by gedolim because it caused more harm, ending in the deaths of everyone instead of there being some survivors, for instance.
Israel doesn’t constitute “we”. They put us in a mess where many of us live in an area of danger.
Rebbe akiva didn’t carry arms with him, neither did rabban yochanan ben zakai. As you said, rebbe akiva thought bar kochva was moshiach, in which case we’re supposed to fight.
Yaakov met eisav not in times of galus, but was machniah himself anyway to avoid fighting. He preferred the jewish approach of bribery and flattery; something haughty zionists are repulsed by.
The chashmonaim fought to preserve Torah. Ever wonder why the jews didn’t fight during purim until given permission? It’s because in galus we don’t fight goyim if there’s a gezerah against us physically.
I love how some people can lump a tzadekes of a rebbetzin who due to being raised among gedolim picked up quite a bit of knowledge, with a feminist conservative “rabbit” who denies torah misinai and flouts halacha.
Actually, I don’t love it. Sheker sonaysi ve’esaeivah.
Yserb, you’re severely misinformed. Sefardim did not use electricity on shabbos, especially not the ben ish chai. Some of their poskim misunderstood how electricity works (as did some of ashkenazi gedolim) and permitted it on yom tov because of aish m’aish, which the aruch hashulchan had suggested.
Rav moshe allowed a hearing aid to be worn on shabbos because it isn’t noticeably zilzul shabbos, which he held was a problem. He held that the other issurim involved weren’t clear, and that while they’re enough to asser in general, for a choleh we can be lenient.
Why are you asking from cheit ha’egel? Klal yisroel left mitzrayim armed, chamushim, according to rashi.
The way a jew behaves in galus is very different from how klal yisroel was structured in the midbar and eretz yisroel.
The tanaim and amoraim were not armed. Neither were the rishonim or achronim.
Is she “marbitz torah” when she says that women count in a minyan?
It’s not my pshat, it’s just shulchan aruch. Amira leakum is mutar when it’s a derabonon for a mitzvah, including necessities of shabbos like having the air conditioner on, or turning off lights to be able to sleep.
Amira leakum is mutar for deraysos for a choleh, even if not in life danger.
Owning something very dangerous is problematic in halacha. That includes biting dogs, and other mazikim. Gun owners all too often are shot by their own weapons; kids get to them, etc.
A good argument can be made to forbid gun ownership. Permitting it also has a strong basis.
Either way it’s not the way of klal yisroel.
A prutah is half of a piece of barley’s amount of silver
There definitely were frum slave owners. I’ve seen gittin that they wrote when slavery became illegal.
Double derabonons, called shvus dshvus, like asking a goy to do a derabonon, is mutar in most cases for a mitzvah.
Chas veshalom to say that all derabonons are mutar for mitzvos. They’re not. One can never be mechalel shabbos derabonon, not for mitzvos, not for loss of money, not for anything short of pikuach nefesh.
Yabia, I’m pretty sure kavanah isn’t required when saying pesukim with Hashem’s name. I will imyh look into it.
Ubiq – the discussion here was to interrupt set times that yeahivos learn to honor soldiers. That’s bitul Torah of tinokos shel beis rabban, which we do not do even to build the beis hamikdash.
The general rule is that we do not interrupt learning unless it is for a mitzvah that cannot be done by someone else
But if there’s a mitzvah that can be done by someone else (someone asks for a ride), then we don’t.Many achronim say that when it’s bitul Torah derabim, that is, interrupting learning of many people, we don’t interrupt at all.
The above comments regarding the supposed importance of non-learning activities are irrelevant, and are only indicative of how necessary it is TO learn, so one does not misrepresent halacha in the way the posters here are. It’s ignorance, as these halachos are not hard to find. Perhaps if these posters ever had the geshmak of learning a ketzos or a reb chaim(not hearing about it in a digestible shiur, actually going through it yourself) they wouldn’t talk about learning that way.
Anon – we’re talking about taking time off of a seder.
Chug – show hakaras hatov by greeting soldiers when you see them(or police, who also put themselves at risk for our well being). Most of the time when i pass by a police officer, or when i see army soldiers (happened a few times) i give them a “thank you”
It doesn’t mean we need to be mevatel torah. We’re not even mevatel torah in chedorim for building the beis hamikdash.
Yabia – referencing Hashem isn’t always in the context of shiros and praises. Many times it’s a statement, like saying “Hashem runs the world”. Also, when saying zemiros, many don’t say any of Hashem’s names because al pi halacha you have to have kavanah when you say it.
Was this teshuva trying to justify what chilonim do in Israel, where elokim just is used instead of “God”? Sounds like it was. It doesn’t hold water.
Let’s close the yeshivos for Martin Luther King day, father’s day, mothers day, black history month… Let’s just close them altogether…