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Chanan….or he was right, and lo ra’inu ainoh rayah. Not seeing isn’t a proof.
No, the other way around – politics needs to be based on Torah, which this isn’t. This is just sticking it in the face of their enemies, no kovod Hashem or kovod hatorah.
“Endangering the poor”
Easy solution; don’t do the thing that makes them have to get abortions. Sin has consequences.
AAQ – that’s exactly what i think tendler thought; and it’s evil at its core. When it comes to mitzvos “Hashem will forgive us”, nu nu, it’s only a mitzvah… But when we have non torah based political interests…. that’s a different story. For that, we’re moser nefesh.
Chadgadya – that would be “melaveh”, OPs term “malveh” is correct
Zaph, i meant that no one uses kol kach in conversation; you’d say “azoi gut” or something. I agree with you very much that without a basic command of Yeshiva terms, you’re not going to understand a lot of achronim.
Yabia; why not speak Hebrew? Well, for starters, no one did until some secular thugs hijacked it and made it in their image.
Using “kol kach” gave yourself away
Religious zionism, the mamzer of the unholy union between nationalism and superficial, thoughtless judaism, was never, and will never be accepted by the mainstream. It leaves more jews dead than secular zionism, and its goals represent rhe contamination of all we consider holy.
Breaking minhag yerushalayim, even if a rov somehow thinks it’s ok to go up, would be unconscionable if not for the blindness that zionism causes. The number of jews it puts in danger should also be sufficient reason to forbid it, but zionism is an egel hazahav which does not allow these rabbis to see what’s clearly in front of them.
Comparing that to minagim based on rishonim (like eating indoors on shemini atzeres, it’s tosfos) or gedolei yeshivos (like rav yisroel saying to make kiddush before tekios) is mind boggling.
Putting jews in danger puts one outside the category of oseh al daas beis din patur, even if we were to say that the rabbis being followed are legitimate baalei horaah.
Interesting that this same supposed baal horaah was moser klal yisroel beyad akum to advance what he thought was the saving og lives that were at risk from bris milah. Tell me how a supporter of tendler justifies endangering jewish life to walk up on har habayis, which is no chiyuv, but not for bris milah, which is a mitzvah?
Gadol – i refer to controversial rabbis like rabbi kook and rabbo yoshe ber as rabbi, but i draw the line at people who get the government to attack jewish people for keeping mitzvos.
A place that has a possibly more familiar feel to it would be the bostoner kolel. Boston is known both in the states and in eretz yisroel for being extremely welcoming and warm. There are BTs, and many FFBs there.
While i don’t do it myself very much, i enjoy seeing people with copy/pasted goyishe values being triggered by black and white shulchan aruch, gemara and tanach. That’s a form of trolling i suppose.
Yiftach wasn’t chosen because he could solve klal yisroels problems. He had a lev tov and was full of zeal for torah and klal yisroel. He was not a “gadol”, as he was unlearned.
He represented how even the lowest among the people – an outcast who was born to an unwed mother, grew up among warriors and rough men – had superb character that eclipsed the best of the goyim.
Tendler was also not a talmid of MTJ – he was in YU.
Many, many gedolim had children who didn’t follow their derech. The fact that most of rav moshes children were not only frum but gedolei torah who grew up in a hostile environment is astounding.
That he had one son in law who turned out to be modern is not surprising; most people at that time were not what we would call yeshivishe, either his daughter wouldn’t fit with a yeshivishe guy and she needs to get married to, or tendler was a bochur who didn’t wear his hashkofos on his sleeve…or it could be he hadn’t developed those shitos yet. The possibilities are numerous, but none of them point to rav moshe being accepting of zionism, modern orthodoxy, or violations of halacha including ascending har habayis.
There’s also no way rav moshe would allow breaking minhag makom, as the rabbonim in yerushalayim had long since forbade the practice, even if (and there isn’t) there was a legitimate heter.
Also, rav dovid and yblch”t rav reuven are neither zionistic or modern.
Considering tendler is rav moshes only talmid who is modern and Zionist, i think it’s very telling that literally everyone else disagreed with him about rav Moshes views on those subjects.
My rebbe rav belsky was close to rav moshe. I’ve met other talmidim too, but the list is very long and tendler is a complete outsider who went so far as to call on the government to interfere with parts of bris milah that rav Moshe held of and that he personally didn’t like
Who says the rambam went on har habayis? It’s a letter which may have not been written by him, and it could be referring to the kosel. Spitting would apply to the kosel too, which is probably what Rav Moshe was referring to.
Rav moshe probably didn’t tell tendler anything about har habayis for the same reason he didn’t dissuade him from any other modern, zionist thing he did – he wouldn’t have listened.
AAQ, you’ve seen rabbi sacks go through gemara sugyos with rishonim and achronim?
Gadol – normal activities are shomer pesayim Hashem; we’re not obligated to follow the opinions of climatologists, there’s no source or mesorah for it. Doctors, which have a pasuk of rapo yirapeh, should be heeded when they say something is dangerous.
Nice troll.
Anyways i like torah lodaas; not sure who’s putting it out now the the mechaber was niftar. I also like zera shimshon
Also, besides the RCA’s decision to endorse environmentalism, we have no one on record who says to watch out for the environment.
Another point to be made is that chazal speak openly about how dangerous things that are done by a large amount of people are not actually dangerous – this is based on shomer pesayim Hashem. To an uninitiated, if something is poisonous, then the alarm must be sounded – how can chazal let people do things that are sakanah!??!
The answer is that danger depends on how much Hashem makes something dangerous, like every other physical existence. Since a lot of people do something, the danger that scientifically would exist ceases to be effective, because like I said earlier, a person being damaged by, say, playing in traffic, is due not to being in traffic, but a punishment for violating the mitzvah of venishnartem.
When something is not done by a multitude, like meat and fish, the sakanah is there and if someone does it, there’s no shomer pesayim Hashem.
So too with environmentalism – even if we were to accept that there is a danger, we’d have a halachik device of shomer pesayim Hashem to rely on that there would not be any damage from, say driving our cars and so on.
You’ve yet to bring a single source among rishonim or achronim who advocate dismissing or even questioning chazals statements about hashkofa, worldview, human nature (chazakos), or anything else besides certain scientific pronouncements. That is the view of the conservative movement and it was simply ripped from maskilim, no one else.
Even the physical scientific statements being questionable, were only held of by one rishon who was before hisgalus hakabalah (achronim use kabalah to explain many stiros) and since has not been followed by achronim, not even mentioned at all by the gaon, shach, taz, magen avrohom..all of whom, for instance, allow killing lice on shabbls…the only achron who quoted it was the sefardi Pachad Yitzchok, who was rebuked by his rebbe for invoking it.
Donating money to environmentalism is a good way to fool yourself into thinking you’re doing tzedaka when you’re squandering the opportunities you’re given.
I don’t believe in “trashing” the planet. I believe in living chayei teivel – i drive a car, don’t think much about recycling, eat beef, and live without caring about what climatologists say I should do. I slso don’t believe in violatinf bal tashchis, so i try to use up my resources and not waste, but not because of environmental concerns…i do it because of the mitzvah which is intended to discourage ingratitude.
Rabbeinu tam is hardly a radical opinion. It relates to the machlokes gaonim and rishonim regarding when tzeis hakochavim is; many would agree to rabbeinu tam.
How are you qualified to be mach’riah between rishonim? My point was that you misstated the sugya by avoiding one of the main rishonim which doesn’t fit into the picture you were trying to paint. Unlike my explanation which was universal. The rashba for instance, writes clearly that chazal are always right about science, and deals with the gemara in question.
Many say the pshat i mentioned (which you did not address, because it’s a strong ta’anah) that there’s a difference between chazal’s conclusions and the ideas they had to begin with, like hava amina’s. Hava amina’s are discarded routinely; if chazal admitted to the chachmei umos haolam, it was their conclusion (which happens to be scientifically correct!) But whatever was the maskanah and was in the finished chasimas hatalmud, is authoritative.
I also mentioned, which nomesorah derided but did not address(and neither did you) that even rabbeinu avrohom did not speak about chazal’s description of physical realities when pesukim are darshened, like the gestation period of a snake.
Macchish doesn’t mean reject. It means to disagree with, like when there’s hacchasha by adim
Ujm, i honestly don’t know. That quote i believe is in maaseh ish.
The chazon ish said that the yeshiva system was “mazik yechidim and mezakeh es horabim”
Nom – i don’t see anything to respond to in that diatribe. I answered your claims and yehudis’, but im not going to argue about whether or not chazal are emes. They are. The rambam says if you disagree with them (mach’chish magideah) you’re an apikores.
Yehudis, I addressed the other rishonim who argue with rabbeinu tam; it’s you who omitted his shitah. They never said that chazal wrote conclusions in gemara which are wrong. The only rishon who may have said that there are statements in chazal which are wrong at the end of the day is rabbeinu avrohom Ben harambam, but even he didn’t address directly when chazal darshen a pasuk. That opinion in either way was rejected by rishonim and achronim across the board, and was deemed “assu to say” during the slifkin affair.
Contrary to nomesorah’s claim that it’s not “revolutionary”, the slippery slope you went down where you can reject other things chazal say is totally, unequivocally baseless, and there has not been a single shitah ever who says that they said hashkofa things that were based on their time and place.
No one didn’t hold of rav yisroel; there was opposition to his shitoh, but no one ever trashed him himself.
Ben ish chai – huh?
Ramchal – i stand by what i said
Opposition to the rambam can be used to justify every deviant idiocy – maybe na nachers are right, and if you say they’re wrong, then….what about the rambams opponents?
Was shabsai tzvi later recognized as valid? Or did he fall aside into the trashbin of history?
What about frankel?
And solomon shechter?
Most deviants who aren’t accepted, are never accepted later. The only three times it happened that someone was opposed and later accepted was the rambam, chasidim, and the ramchal (who is a bad example – he was only opposed because he learned kabalah at an early age in the wake of shabsai tzvi, not because of any particular teaching he had – so it’s not “shitas haramchal” that was first rejected and then accepted).
Every other deviant remained so.
The words of rebbe were “nerein divreihem midivreinu”, their words appear true more than ours”. Rabbeinu tam says that he didn’t agree, but lacked a way of answering them at the moment.
The divrei yoel writes that he couldn’t explain to them the kabalistic channels in shomayim, since you can’t teach that to goyim.Others say that he was admitting. But the chachmei yisroel had noy darshened a pasuk. Most of the physical statements in chazal are derived from pesukim, carrying the full weight of a deoraysoh drashah. Some are mesoros, like the synodic month.
Even their own conclusions were based on their immersion in learning. They didn’t copy the goyim; we have no reason to think they did when they ruled seforim chitzonim assur.
I don’t understand why everyone’s suggesting kiruv organizations. The OP wants people to talk to; jt isn’t clear, but if she is a would -be member of frumteens (which was mekarev me, so…) then she’s probably too religious for NCSY. They do some good work with non-frun kids, but their activities are not always in keeping with halacha. They have mixed events, and there is a lot of interaction between genders.
Oorah is mainstream frum, but you’ll encounter other teens who are not as frum yet.
My suggestion would be to get yourself invited to family’s houses who have daughters your age within the hashkofa group that you’re drawn to.
And here we see a prime example of how taking one heretical idea (that chazal erred in science), which at least was espoused at some point by one or two authentic rabbonim, leads to a wholesale apikorsus that no one has ever condoned – to say that chazal’s worldview is limited by their time and place, and that we can ignore or ‘reinterpret’ statements, torah, that they write such as tav lemaysav, chazakos, based on current society and our ‘enlightened’ perspective. Chazal say that a woman’s place is to be subservient to her husband? trash it! because they were in a time and place where that was the norm.
averah goreres averah.
Saying rav hirsch erred because scientists say that they don’t see a particular species is spurious. chazal say ‘lo rainu aino raya’, that not seeing something is not a proof. Unless that too was because of their time and place – in which case, what parts of the gemara do you ‘agree’ with? conservative judaism basically says that they’ll keep whatever hasn’t been ‘invalidated’ chas veshlom, by modern thought and studies. afra lepumayhu.
you’re knocking on their door without realizing it; actually, you’ve busted that door wide open.
torah and chazal are one; they cannot be separated. chazal functioned as the transmitters of the dvar Hashem, and in so doing were greater than neviim – chacham adif minavi. For you to dismiss some things that they say without even having gained the tools of study that we received from the rishonim and achronim….I doubt you’d be able to translate, much less delve into one ket’a of a ma’aracha of reb akiva eiger….to say that you who presumably went to college or at least are knowledgeable of modern thought, are superior in perspective, that you see clearer than they do, casts you outside the torah world into an abyss of apikorsus.
megaleh panim betorah shelo’kahalacha applies to hashkofo too.
There’s a difference between a torah shitoh and a personal hashaarah; when judging someone, we see that even dovid erred in his understanding of his advisors. His torah, however, is Torah, and should be taken as authoritative as any other acharon.
Yehudis – that’s what the RCA quotes in their proclamation about environmentalism. Guess where else that medrash has been used in that context? Yep, that’s right – never. No one ever interpreted it that way, except the RCA rabbis who darshen up the new york times every shabbos.
Where has it been used? In the mesilas yeshorim, where he says not to destroy the world with our sins, the only actual potential for harm that’s possible. As the rambam says, one who attributes suffering to nature or other physical causes brings more suffering to the world, ignoring the spiritual causes and messages from Hashem.
AAQ, rav hirsch was aware of many species claimed to be extinct. He held that they’re not; the fact that scientists don’t see them doesn’t mean that they are – lo rainu einoh rayah. Scientists also sometimes find species that they thought were extinct.
It’s not a “hashaarah” like his view of the Germans. For that, it took someone like the Gaon to see past their outward appearance. Not all gedolim are the same.
Yehudis – do yourself a favor and. Read. Hashkofo. Seforim.
You clearly haven’t. If you believe you’re emotionally ready to accept the truth no matter what it is or how it makes you feel, then open a shaar bitachon and go through it – just once would dispel your claims.Which species have gone extinct? The mabul eliminated some, but rav hirsch writes that it’s impossible to make a species extinct afterwards.
Maybe take your head out of the museum of natural history, learn seforim with humility and without preconceived notions – it’s a good idea whether I’m right or wrong, no?
Genocide, avodah zara, infanticide, nuclear holocausts, mass starvation, and lots of other things have ‘happened before’ too.
Someone asked rav chaim what the point of protesting is if it won’t change anything. His words are written on the heart of every ehrlich yid – vehn s’gait mivh ohn, shreit min
When it hurts, you scream.
And then see EVERYONE ELSE on the rambam who argues and says that you can and should be supported to learn. Rav moshe feinstein writes that it’s GAAVAH to think that one can,in our time, follow the rambam and be successful in learning to be a talmid chacham.
If someone has to work – myself included – fine! It’s a mitzvah too. But it’s not as big as learning and chas veshalom to deride those who are the ligyon shel melech, as the rambam calls them, who sit and learn the whole day, every day, for as long as they can.
I suppose an academic might read the gemara that way..
I didn’t even address the laughable suggestion that the yeshivos are…ok…with the Internet. Do you remember citfiield? Do you remember rav vosners psak that one who has unfiltered internet is pasul le’adus? The yeshivos have not wavered on their opposition to the Internet. The same rules that were laid out then apply now:
Best not to use it at all
2nd best is only at work
If not, only for work at home with a very good filter, not in a private room, and not letting kids near it under any circumstances
If necessary, shopping is allowed as a big bedieved
Recreational use was never permitted on a general basis; individuals may have heterim from their rov for extenuating circumstances.
Torah, etc – if one already has internet for a legitimate purpose, many are ok with using it for learning and shiurim. Many aren’t. That’s a big split nowadays.I don’t know who told you that yeshivos are ok with Internet use. It’s as big of a lie as the MO people who say that the satmar rebbe wasn’t against the state of Israel (sic)
Please don’t tell me you’re reading yehe raava literally.. It’s sarcasm. They’re saying the din is as pashut as chelev
The display of falsity here…when will the misconception about koach dehetera stop?
Chazal do not say that it is better to be maikil or matir.
It NEVER means that. Where did this come from?? It ALWAYS, withoit exception, is used in gemara to express the strength of one tanna or amora’s shitoh. The fact that they were able to be matir shows the strength of their shitoh, because anyone can be machmir out of not knowing the halacha clearly. Only if someone knows the halacha very clearly can they allow something. Most people who use this expression simply want to be matir things because yiddishkeit is a burden for them.. nebach.
Poskim go out of their way to be maikil for…agunos, nidah shailos, kashrus shailos for poor people, cholim, the list goes on. My mesorah from rav belsky is not to look for chumros.Anyways here’s a list of places in the gemara where the expression is used to describe the strength of the psak being made, NOT to say that being meikil is better than being strict.
Berachos 60a, eruvin 72b, bayah 2b, gitttin 41b and 74b, kidushin 60b..and one more.Let’s bury this ignorance once and for all.
Reb E – i guess the chazon ish lived on stolen money and disgraced the Torah… ch”v – editor’s note
If there’s anything disgraceful, it’s telling bnei torah not to learn because of a ket’a from a rambam which no one paskens like, and about which the radvaz says that torah would have been forgotten if we had.
Also, the rambam was not against being supported by an individual. He himself was supported by his brother. The same would go for fathers in law, or wives. No one, not one rishon ever questioned yissachar/zevulun. To lump it all together is just sinas batorah and those who learn it.
If you owe someone money, can they not be mochel? The kesuva is a shibud, if a wife wants to be supported, that is her right, but there is indeed a machlokes rishonim if ana eflach means working one’s own fields to provide, or to have to look for a job. It’s hard to say it means the latter, say some rishonim, because we don’t find anywhere else a chiyuv mamon that requires more than glima de’al kaspai. A husband would definitely have these shitos as a “kim li” in a beis din.
The holy rizhiner wore golden shoes with no bottoms and would bleed from his feet. He showed malchus from the exterior, because his avodah was that of rabbeinu hakodosh – when rebbe yehudah hanasi was niftar, he rose his hands and swore that despite his regal estate, he never enjoyed this world with even his pinky finger… the heiligeh rizhiner did the same when he was niftar
Do you think it’s funny to mock tzadikim? Most people don’t “get” the joke, and those who do really don’t find it funny, but rather sad that someone would be mevazeh talmidei chachamim in such a disgusting manner.
Anyways, ujm – rav moshe kobriner writes in imros moshe that “uvau haovdim be’eretz ashur” refers to the lost ones who live in sxcesses, ashur= ashirus, vehanidachaim beeretz mitzrayim, those who are pushed away from Hashem due to inyanei kedushah, mitzrayim was ervas haaretz etc
Those were a small continent; I’m sure many more took CHAZ seriously as a rebellion against the authority of the government, but it was celebrated. The ones who made it were guilty of treason, sedition, and more – it was the first time since the confederacy that a part of the union broke off.
I don’t see how there was ever a risk to democracy or the government. People protest often in this country, whether they’re right or wrong. The only time the country came close to falling apart was during the civil war.
I forgot to address the issue of vayavidu…befarech, that the Egyptians forced the jews to do hard, breaking labor.
The main issue was a spiritual subjugation. Shalach es ami vayaavduni….the movie left out the main part! “Let me people go” is the biggest fraud – second only to the deletion of matan torah being a national event. hashem said to send out my people that they should serve me…we couldn’t serve Hashem when we were tachas sivlos mitzrayim. There’s no parallel to the relatively empty sufferings of slave folk elsewhere, and that’s why the Torah doesn’t ban even cruel treatment of slaves – that wasn’t the issue. The issue with mitzrayim was that they wanted us to be like them, and to stifle the holy people of Hashem.
I agree that the heter to place heavy burdens etc, is s bedieved, because the rambam says so beferush. I do not accept the assertion that there’s anything remotely wrong with owning a human being, which is what rabbi kook and others attempt to say. Rabbi kook largely had a value system not based on what the torah values and devalues – he also thought it was “wrong” to eat meat, for instance. he and many other modern people let their own biases and preconceived notions dictate their morals and values, and are we to be surprised when that hefkerus leads to distortions in halacha?
What you described re; tavi and eliezer are exactly the archetype eved kanaani that the torah is talking about. It’s a way of elevating a goy to a level of demi-jewish, as it were. It’s an opportunity to reach levels that without it are impossible to achieve….they keep not 7, but hundreds of mitzvos. And that greatness is lost when we denigrate the mitzvah as “lo dibra” or that the Torah was only talking in “those days”.