Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
I’m referring to the “if you don’t like it don’t look” refrain that many high school girls pratter away when they’re taught about tznius. It’s false, and when people get older they’re expected to abandon the childish ideas they once had
He’s only right if the women are in a place where they don’t have reason to think men are listening. Women are not allowed to sing wherever they want and tell men not to listen, much as they cannot dress however they want and tell men not to look.
You graduated from high school several decades ago; time to move on.
Yte – please read the thread. We’ve thoroughly debunked the high school “just don’t look” refrain
Ujm – i can’t find anything on the subject, but I’ll look into it
ujm, most of the discoveries mentioned above, i do not believe were made by yidden. Persian Jews for millenia have davened by the kever of mordechai and esther.
ujm – even live, if you are given a choice between having to walk down a street that has women singing, or one where they are dressed inappropriately, the choice is very clear. Not all erva is the same. The same way there’s a difference between a woman in short sleeves and one in a swimsuit, even though both are exposing erva. It’s a davar pashut.
Gadol; how in the world does “greater adherence to tzinius guidelines” have anything to do with degradation or subordination? It’s the opposite; by dressing more tznius, a woman is more dignified and less objectified, and seen as merely a vehicle for lust for men.
When feminists say they want to dress provocatively “for themselves” and champion pritzus as a means of “liberation,” what they’re saying is that “don’t objectify and sexualize us, but….look, we’re going to be super provocative, right in your face, in ways that we know are designed around men’s preferences and desires….objectification is only a problem if it’s forced upon us”
I’ve never seen anyone on here, even posters who have an inclination to discuss tznius more than other topics, advocate for “subjugation” of women….unless you mean communal toleration of wanton sinning; if calling out sins and not embracing sinners as our brothers is “subjugation” then so be it.
Gadol – my point is that there’s no comparison between a non-addicted, healthy man’s yatzer hora, which can be triggered by women singing and dancing, and the “ew, gross” reaction women have to men not being tznius. The two are completely different. One is “lo yinakeh midinoh shel gehinnon” if one looks at the small finger of a woman for pleasure, and the other is a nuisance like seeing dead rats on the street.
As for equating all shmiras aynayim/kedushah inyonim to addictions – so what? What does that have to do with my points in this thread? I never once brought up addiction or more extreme behaviors.
Saying “this is “normal” not like X behavior which is criminal (any aveirah is a crime against Hashem)” is reductive. You’re trivializing the nisyonos of ehrlich jews around the world and making it out to be as if it’s only a problem if it goes to a certain extreme that you arbitrarily decided. As i said, etzbah katana is enough to land a jew in gehinnom; that can’t be reduced by the contrast to *bigger” sins.
Ujm – there is a pretty big difference. Many poskim hold that it’s not halachikally erva (regarding krias shma, etc) if it’s recorded. You’re still not allowed to listen because it’s obviously stoking the yatzer hora and will lead to hirhurim. Being in a state of undress is erva.
gadol – lots of things are disgusting. Dead rodents on the street are pretty gross too; it’s a shame that some people have to deal with the frustrations of seeing things that disgust them.
what does that have to do with the soul-destroying power of pritzus in the eyes of a jewish man?
Basically all of the torah in the litvishe world in eretz yisroel can be traced to either the chazon ish, brisker rov, or rav chaim shmulevitz/rav laizer yudel finkel.
ujm, it was not a pleasant chapter in yeshiva history. Rav Shach paskened that frumer yidden can join the government and take money therefrom. Previously, the frum parties (not including mizrachi, and Im not sure if shas was around yet) under the psak of the chazon ish, held that we were only allowed to be in the opposition, but not in the government itself. Rav Shach said that under Menachem Begin things were different and that the psak no longer applied. He also said that due to these changes, we were allowed to take money for yeshivos until 50% funding for a school.
Rav avrohom yehoshua was very upset at this, and said that his grandfather never would have allowed it. Even though rav shach was about 80 years old and rav avrohom yehoshua was in his 30’s, the former believed he was justified in opposing rav shach not on his own stature, but as a defender of the brisker rov.
This led to a major rift which continues to this day; briskers don’t get jobs in ponevezh.
‘Are we to expect a frum man to be so fickle as to have no control of where his eyes roam?! Maybe learn self control to a degree…”
Ayin is gematria “kal,” because of how effortlessly and swiftly they move and roam. Imagine being extremely hungry and smelling a steak, then being told that not only are you not allowed to smell the steak,but you’re not even allowed to think about it!
Women have very little understanding of men’s challenges; men have little understanding of the daily constant challenge women face to be tznius. Women since high school say “why is it my problem? I want to dress in a provocative way (that’s defined by how men perceive them…)” Men say “what’s the big deal? Just cover up! I wish my whole yiddishkeit was able to be fulfilled by wearing long sleeves and skirts…”
Both are wrong, but a woman’s complaint will leave to broken communities, families, neshomos, and of course being taken to task for any men she was machshil, since it’s lifnei iver.
But seriously, girls talk this way in high school much like they’ll ask “why is it lashon hora if it’s true!” If you’re frum, accept the torah’s view on tznius even if you don’t like it, and even if you don’t like the idea of being a guardian for men you’ve never met.
Mentsch, are you familiar with nidunyos?
AAQ; Perhaps he should work for the sanitation department. They pay well, and he’s obviously physically fit.
Tlik – while it’s true that many gedolim did not learn in brisk, a large amount – perhaps the majority – of gedolei roshei yeshiva in America did, and are talmidim of either rav berel, rav avrohom yehoshua, or rav dovid. After rav avrohom yehoshua’s machlokes with rav shach, the majority of eretz yisroel based yeshivos distanced themselves from brisk. The American yeshiva world never took sides in that disagreement.
Rav Moshe in Even ho’ezer 62 uses the “tarud bemelachto” heter to allow women to swim with a male lifeguard, while saying that wives of talmidei chachamim should not do so. Does he mean to allow a man to have such a job? Possibly not.
1 – brisk doesn’t have its own standard. You don’t have to be a top bochur to get in; you have to come from a Yeshiva which is alloted a certain amount of slots and have a recommendation from the rosh Yeshiva thereof. There are guys in brisk who aren’t very into learning, don’t keep sedorim, etc .. The vast majority are big bnei torah, but there’s not much hashgocha there. You make your own goals, standards, and choose who you associate with.
The top guys in brisk aren’t any better than the top mir talmidim.
The number of talmidim who go to brisk is a good yardstick to determine a few thing, including how integrated the yeshiva is in the core yeshiva world, if they allow college, what kind of guys go there, etc…
It’s not holier than thou. My Yeshiva doesn’t send anyone to brisk (there have been a couple of exceptions) but it’s still a great place with accommodations for very yeshivishe bochurim.Ujm, there is a heter for photographers, that when one is “tarud bemelacha” busy with work, they are not meharher – “the velt” says this, and i can look into it if there are teshuvos (im sure there are in general, but not sure if this heter is mentioned).
Re YouTube – i agree that YouTube isn’t a place for any ehrlich person, besides kiruv and the like. Whether it’s technically lifnei eiver or not, i don’t know. It’s also not tznius for a jewish woman to have her face all over the world.
I realize my post wasn’t clear – rabbi dietz does not have a chaburah in derech chaim. He has his own shul on ocean parkway between n and o, closer to o.
Also, regarding the psak i received from rav belsky (it was in regards to my mother a”h) the Internet was quite different then. That was 7 years ago. I don’t know if it would still apply.
That being said, gye is one of the only resources where mevakshei Hashem of all stripes – increasingly including the less yeshivishe crowd – can find chizuk and help one another.
A filter which can be turned off at will is not sufficient in halacha.
While it helps in some circumstances (like for women only if there’s ALWAYS a lot of people around in an office setting – as heard from rav belsky) there is a chiyuv in halacha to prevent nisyonos whenever possible.
This obligation is derived from many sources, notably bava basra 57b, regarding one who has two roads to go on, one with nisyonos in shmiras aynayim, and another without. Not only is a person obligated to take the road without nisyonos, he is even called a rasha if he chooses the other road – even if he does not look, because it is sinful to bring one’s self to a yatzer hora; maybe he won’t succeed? And even if he does, he will have wasted energy that could be used for nisyonos presented to him min hashomayim, that are part of his life plan.
Now if someone went down that road… He’s supposed to watch his eyes and do teshuva for going down the road, not give in and say “why should i bother, I’m going to be called a rasha anyway,” that’s pure yatzer hora at his finest.
Shmiras aynayim is a pasuk with the same obligatory weight as any other negative mitzvah in the Torah.
Chazal are full of statements which proclaim the frailty of man when it comes to taavos. Ain apotropus le’arayos; there is no safeguard against cohabitation sins. Al.taamin beatzmecha, do not believe in yourself (that you can enter nisyonos) until you’re dead. Dovid hamelech was chastised for this, after asking Hashem to test him, to be like the avos.
Those who think one can go into the outside world(or even inside..a chasuna, a kiddush) without practicing tools to fulfill the mitzvah of ahmiras aynayim, are just as folly as those who say that abstaining from lashon hora makes one a “frummie”.
because whenever one actually triea to practice shmiras aynayim, they “open their eyes” to a huge breadth of challenges that they had never addressed. Their vision was left to rote, and they had no idea what they had let into their eyes, much like when one begins to examine their speech after years of neglect, they soon discover how much work they need to do to avoid lashon hora, nivul peh, etc.
Telling people to just “be strong” and mock those who have filters as “weak,” is not only against the Torah, but it leads others to sin and not protect themselves.
May Hashem grant every yid the power to resist the yatzer hora in all of his machinations, from within and without, during this time pf introspection and be zocheh to build the beis hanikdash with the tears cried in teahuva for our sins.
Ujm, derech chaim caters to a very broad spectrum. There are mainstream guys, mitzuyonim, and a lot of bochurim who need extra help in learning, which they specialize in.
I’d recommend rabbi dietz’s night chaburah. He learns with middle aged and older men, many of whom did not have a yeshiva education but are frum. He also has a unique maariv minyan; shemoneh esrei is like 11 minutes.
Pet rocks must have been the most cost effective, psychologically eye opening fad in history
Gadol – if MO were sitting and learning and not involved in goyishe media/mingling with them, then i don’t think anyone would object to them having goyishe names. It’s they who need the separation the most; they indeed haven’t been mekabel the Torah, and are more assimilated than the generation who left litzrayim. Names, dress, philosophy, language, behavior, everything is copied and pasted directly from the goyim.
Rav avigdor miller writes that even though there were gedolim who were against it, there are tremendous benefits to having pictures of tzadikim in one’s house… He also criticizes Judaica stores for selling pictures of zionist leaders.
Rav belsky had several pictures in his house, not just his office, of rav reuven, rav yaakov, and i believe rav shlomo heiman, but i don’t remember that very clearly.
Rav boruch ber didn’t like getting his picture taken, but one time he met an American jew whose parnosa was in photography. To support a yid, he put on his hat, made a big smile and posed for a picture
Anything can be debates internally; as in, what do chazal mean, but chazal’s authority in all areas of philosophy, worldview, psychology, sociology, history, science, etc…are dvar Hashem.
Hakirah should be read “hakiur”, the ugly
When something is in the Torah, any scientific evidence to the contrary is disregardes. Torah is an absolute; science is simply not. It’s a handmaid of Torah, not the other way around.
We’re accomplishing our tafkid in our time; our generation has its purpose, challengea, and special set of goals.
If i were alive in previous generations, I’d fall prey to the yatzer hora, like rav ashi learned from menasheh.
aside from the rambam’s statements about astronomy and his son, rabbeinu avrohom’s seeming expansion of it to cover other areas of science, which rishonim question chazal’s conclusions at all? in drush, many do, like the radak and ibn ezra, but they give reasons for doing so. they aren’t saying chazal are wrong, but rather that they must express their 70 ponim latorah understanding which as a rishon, they are entitled to do. after which time, no one else engaged in such study, even in drush, but definitely not in chazal’s statements such as killing lice on shabbos, etc..
you’re parroting online talking points without giving a stitch of evidence, much like your theories on orthopraxy. they’re just hollow. achronim across the board enshrine every word of chazal as torah misinai; check out the beer hagolah from the maharal, gr”a, and tons of others.
gadolha – just how is the standard 9-5 work, 2 hours at home, 8 hour sleep, and 1 hour learning (well, if you can call it such) “balanced”. The american standard for a baal habayis is anything but balanced. it’s weighted heavily on the side of gashmius. a kolel lifestyle is one of the only viable options for as long as it can be maintained; ones rachmana patrei…sometimes a person needs to spend a lot of time working, but that’s an ones, not a balance.
Nomesorah, I’m not sure which is a bigger assumption… Evolution being true itself, or that a hardline anti-everything Yeshiva man would accept it as fact.
The author of maaneh l’igros was r. Yom tov Schwartz; he learned iin chachmei lublin, and at one point probably was a talmid chacham, who was broken during the war and had emotional problems. The way he writes has a total lack of kovod hatorah. Rav ovadia yosef likes some of his torah, but criticizes him for not giving proper respect to rav moshe. Needless to say, he never had a following, as rav moshe was rightfully recognized as the manhig hador by virtually everyone.
Time for truth; i wasn’t giving him legitimacy, i was saying that the only issue anyone ever had with rav Moshe, erroneously so, was that he argued with the magen avrohom and other early achronim.
Rav elya ber has not distanced hinself from rav aharon; just he spent more time in brisk, but I’m sure rav aharon had an influence on him. Stamford moved to monsey, and I don’t believe rav Meir says shiur anymore, but i have no reason to think he was not actively involved in the monetary side of things when he was leading/founding the yeshiva.
Nomesorah – those yeshivos are very well known in the yeshiva world, especially south fallasburg and stanford, the latter having one of the finest standards in the olam hayeshivos. South fallsburg is known as an American brisk, where it’s as good as you make it, but they’re not hawkish…zichron melech is also a very established, respected yeshiva.
If you’re right, it would support your claim that rav aharon held that way, because all three of the above were started by talmidim of his; rav chaim Epstein zt”l, yblch”t rav elya ber, and rav meir hershkowitz
No one seems to address this – lo ra’inu aino rayah. Not seeing is not a proof. How can scientists prove that a species is extinct? They can’t. Where does rav hirsch write that we would discard our views if proven wrong scientifically? Rav schwab writes quite the opposite – that if science would disprove a statement in chazal, we would “shecht our reasoning as a korban” in the way avrohom was ready to sacrifice his reasoning for Hashem by akeidas Yitzchok.
Abortion is being portrayed as if it were something in shulchan sruch, where the magen avrohom says one thing and the elya rabba another, and rav moshe ignores them to deliver his own psak. Rav moshe deals with rav yaakov emden(an acharon who actually isn’t given as much weight as the kreisi uplaysi, for instance), but there aren’t that many sources on the subject, much less an established precedent as if they’re in the rishonim and nosei keilim. Rav moshe was, as i said, literally on the level of learning of an early acharon, as anyone can see from his dibros moshe.
In psak, rav moshe often argues with achronim, he was criticized by some who didn’t recognize his gadlus in learning, like the author of maaneh le’igros, who had his own issues… zionism, Holocaust denial (as in, denying the causes thereof), etc..
I think “most rabbonim” quoted here refers to shul rabbis and communally involved modern Orthodox or black hat wearing religious zionists, to be honest.
Time for truth – well said. Modern orthodoxy is a mirror, usually, of liberal but centrist goyim. At the time, most liberal goyim were opposed to abortion, and it was considered somewhat radical to support it. MO rabbis had no blowback for being against it. Nowadays, most MO people believe in it (and other abominations), and even some people with velvet fabric on their heads spout “right to privacy” nonsense and the slippery slope argument. That’s why many MO rabbis shifted. You want to know what MO will say next year? Take out a new york times magazine from 5 years ago, and it’ll match up almost perfectly.
You’re right that they pick and choose. This is probably the only teshuva from the tzitz eliezer that they know, much like the only rambam that they know is his shitoh about being supported by the community to learn. It’s honestly pathetic.
As for the claim that the tzitz eliezer is more grounded than rav Moshe – how much shimush have you had in psak to make such a vlaim? Rav Moshe was very meikil, and had no problems allowing things that the majority didn’t. If you eat cholov stam (which im sure the above posters do) then you should not dismiss his psak on abortions either. The psak is “unusual” because they’re used to rav moshe allowing everything, so when he says no to something – emphatically so – rather than listen to the manhig hador, they turn and dig up whoever they can find who says what they want to hear.
Rav Moshe was also from alonr. Rav avigdor miller called abortion infanticide.
Reb E – the same people who do follow those kulos from rav Moshe are the ones who now cast him aside in favor of whoever will grant them what they want.
Amil – there’s no child expense to pay from that time, so why don’t money? Also, you’re assuming that the torah’s position is that a life begins the moment of conception, because the only two perspectives you’ve heard are “my body my choice” and “life starts at conception”. The first one sounds better, and it’s “empowering” so you go with it.
The gemara says that until 40 days there’s no neshoma. Many states also want to restrict it to about that time, when a fetal heartbeat can be detected.
Also, for “strong independent women”, why do they need child support?
Reb E, no one’s dismissing him. Being rov of a hospital is wonderful. Writing teshuvos is also great. Having government rabbinical jobs is neither good or bad, it’s just a parnosa, it doesn’t show gadlus. He was a legitimate posek and i use his sefer myself(not that he needs my haskama).
But in the big picture, he was one of hundreds of influential rabbonim in the 20th century. Rav Moshe was one of…3 or 4, who built up klal yisroel after the war, and was on the level of an early acharon in learning. He’s up there with the chazon ish, brisker rov, rav aharon kotler, and maybe one or two others.
Polling data would find that Americans are wildly against most of the 7 mitzvos being capital offenses. Does that matter? Are Americans’ views what we base our values or sense of normalcy on?
I agree it’s a lot easier to live modern Orthodox lives where you are as integrated as possible with goyim if you think like them, but what relevance does that have to the rest of klal yisroel who never considered it, and only asked “mah yomru hamitzriim” when it’s about kovod shomayim?
Rav Moshe writes…
but but but..the tzitz eliezer! Let’s run to this sefer that you probably can’t quote a single psak therefrom besides thia, a sefer rhat was written by a big person but who had no more influence in the Jewish world than dozens, hundreds of legitimate poskim.But rav moshe, who literally shaped klal yisroel in America abd abroad, where without him, we’d have no hadracha in the 20th century after the Holocaust…
But but but….
Gadol – 99% of the time it’s not being “forced” on her. She did something she’s old enough to understand the results of. Live with it and don’t kill.
Smerel, i made a similar mistake in taking the Tanya’s useage of that pasuk and thinking it’s in gemara – the gemaras maskanah is that it means cleansing, but i did think of a way to make the tanyas pshat fit in with a maharsha there, but it’s not the pashut pshat when you see the gemara.
He’s getting it from a zohar or arizal, kol tivu de’avdin etc…
either of which can take the pasuk to mean that al derech sod, but in pshat, that’s not how chazal understand it.
Nomesorah – what truth am i not following? We’re not achrai to delve into how the environment can be damaged. We’re commanded to investigate and guard our health, and even then, there is an approach to not investigating…some things are better left samui min ha’ayin, and hezek won’t come from it. Rav moshe said that about dor yeshorim, not as a ruling against it, but as an idea to not require it. He did not use their services, nor does his family.
And yes, reality is determined by the pesukim and even by what chazal say. We go to doctors because the Torah says we can wnd ahould.
Remember besulim chozrim?