AviraDeArah

As for agudah signing the declaration; that has a big backstory, detailed in “the empty wagon”. It was not particularly wrong considering the deal reb itche meir levine had with the zionists. In exchange for “hatzolah purta”, r” levine promised not to oppose the state at the UN in his speech, because that would make the jews loom splintered and weaken the cause of the state. That could have put jewish lives in danger, because zionists were known to kill those who stood in their way (rabbi de’han, and fellow zionists on the altalina ship, for instance).

Rav boruch ber (in “harav hadomeh lemalaach”) stood up for zionists at first in order to save his life, since rav chaim told him that they (at that time!) were suspected of murder, but then he sat down when he remembered that rav chaim said that zionism is avodah zara, which is yehereg velo yaavor.

Almost your entire list is second, third hand information. Who wrote the book you’re citing, and what were his sources?

Just for one example, no talmidim of rav Moshe say he viewed the state positively. Many have told me that he didn’t address it because he needed his psakim to be accepted by everyone, and most Jews at the time were pro zionist.

Rav henkin wrote in his seforim that the state violated the 3 shavuos. He was very strong in his opposition. How would he then say that saying halel is valid? We don’t praise Hashem for a violation of his will.

Shabtai rappaport married a granddaughter of rav Moshe. He is not a grandson himself. He married a tendler(surprised?), teaches at bar ilan, and has a name that the Torah community accepted on itself not to use since shabsai tzvi. Shabti/shabsi took its place. His testimony is no different than those who say that rav Moshe had a seudah on 5 iyyar… When it was just his lunch(heard from a talmid)

There are a high percentage of Israeli citizens who are Arabs. Israel was founded in a land where people spoke Arabic. It makes perfect sense to accommodate them.

I also don’t like the American nationalistic, xenophobic attitude of “this is America! Learn English you foreigner!” It’s one of the things that conservative goyim are mistaken about. It’s not a torah idea; we are told to love foreigners if they are keeping our beliefs and ideals, whether they are a ger toshav or especially if they’re a ger tzedek.

Asserting Jewish dominance just leads to Jews dying from terrorist attacks.

Around and around we go…

This reminds me of a shmuzz from rabbi Bentzion shafier. He gave a speech to women about not fixing their husbands and respecting them for who they are. Afterwards, many women thanked him for the inspiring speech… And asked him “but how do i fix my husband?”

Why are you learning mussar from 12 steps when you can learn it from sifrei kodesh, from tzadikim who are experts in Jewish middos, and the fight against the yatzer hora. Why go to something designed for mentally ill individuals??

My mistake, there was one charedi rabbi who opposed land for peace; the lubavitcher rebbe – but he did not support making settlements either.

What we have here is a rabbi mixing psychology with mussar, and someone who is criticizing that approach. The responses are “you don’t know enough about psychology to argue,” but in doing so, you’re agreeing with the premise that one should mix psychology with musar! It’s also the argument from authority, which is only convincing if you’re going to appeal to daas torah authority, which he said openly that he does not have. I am not beholden to experts in any field if they make mistakes; I have reasoning and analytic abilities, and if I think I can find mistakes in experts’ work, that doesn’t mean I’m arrogant. For example, insurance companies say that most car accidents happen close to home. To a gemara kup, that’s a dumb statement – most accidents happen close to home…because people are almost always close to home!! Same thing with falls in elderly people. There’s a lot of nonsense that passes for science, and it’s not arrogant to point that out. What rabbi twersky said is not nonsense, but I disagree and I think it is not the approach for the non-addicted/mentally ill.

I visited Baltimore a few times and davened in the glen avenue shul – it’s the first shul I’ve been to where the place for the shat”z is lowered, and (if i remember right) there’s no mezuzah. I really like the feel of davening in a place that is so tied to an old mesorah.

Reb E, I don’t agree with “compared to other sites,” idea, because something wrong doesn’t become right just because other people do it worse, especially when it’s not a necessary activity. The alternative would be not to have any such site, but to refer those wbo would do the worse one to to not-as-bad one.

I don’t think there’s kiruv daas when there’s no possibility of communicating personally, or knowing the other person’s identity. Even the gemaras case of m’achurei hageder is different because the man knew which woman it was.

Also most don’t shmooze about personal things. Not the ideal, but honestly I’m here because i like writing and expressing the perspective of the yeshiva world, which is lacking here and online in general.

Ujm, i haven’t had much free time lately.

Rabbi twersky was close (and related) to many gedolei torah. His rebbeim encouraged him to go into psychiatry, and for good reason – he saved many lives and was a profoundly good influence on people.

As far as i know, he did not submit all of his opinions and writings to daas Torah. He wrote in his sefer on chumash that he’s not a daas torah, and that one can only reach that level of torah by learning day and night exclusively, without being involved in other things. He would not shy away from legitimate criticism.

I’m not saying anything revolutionary. He has a chiddush in how to approach the yatzer hora which is not the way baalei mussar and chasidus teach. He’s not saying apikorsus or anything horribly bad. It’s just a mistake that came from his line of work. and if people do less aveiros, or work on their middos from it… it’s a net positive But it’s not the mesorah.

A gartel is necessary for davening according to some poskim, and in one reading of the magen avrohom. Some litvishe, including rav boruch ber, grew up with gartels. He switched to putting it under his jacket in deference to his rebbe rav chaim brisker, who did not wear one at all.

when we see modern people wanting to be more outwardly religious looking, that is a complicated issue. Is it part of an upward trajectory? Are they in fact becoming more frum? Or is it just superficial…that’s something an individual modern person’s rebbe would have to talk with them about.

I took on wearing a gartel after asking one of my rebbeim; he said to ask my father if he’s makpid, which he was not, but that was the first thing he asked me to do, before even getting into my motivations.

streimels were most definitely not for weather protection. They were a badge of honor after the goyim made us wear funny hats to mock us. Rav shach says (merosh amanah) that wearing long was a mesorah which we dropped; the “pick your battles” type of thing, along with shaving. We’re not perfect, and you can’t make everything a red line. Chasidim did, in fact, make the chitzonius a red line, and they are successful in their derech.

Rav Nachman from Breslov also writes as an example of how tzadikim can err, that there were Italian mekubalim who held that in chutz la’aretz, one should not have a beard, because of its kedushah. Rav Nachman writes that the world makes two mistakes about tzadikim; that they can’t make a mistake, and that if they do, that they’re not tzadikim.

Obviously it’s not our place to judge who made mistakes, but the gedolim tell us things like the above examples, which we are supposed to listen to. It’s extremely rare and not something that helps our emunah to dwell on, because the entire Torah is based on mesorah; we have emunah shlaima that the mesorah is authentic and that people who learned torah lishma were guided min hashomayim to transmit the truth to us. There are these couple of exceptions, but the exception proves the rule. 99.9% of the time we say it’s a machlokes and move on without saying one is right or wrong.

Syag; I believe I’ve made it clear in the past that if someone shows me sources that prove me wrong, I yield. The only time I wouldn’t is on things that I have been mekabel directly from my rebbeim as a mesorah; including zionism.

Syag, you could explain what rabbi twerskys opinions were, instead of just saying that i don’t know what I’m talking about. Maybe you’re right, but do you really think I’ll listen by just being told that what i said isn’t true? Maybe quote him or at least say what you heard from him if you don’t want to look up what he wrote.

I don’t need to be someone’s superior in mussar to identify mussar ideas and where something deviates from the mesorah. Rabbi twersky was very knowledgeable in psychology, but that doesn’t mean he was incapable of making an error in hashkofa. Bigger people than him have made bigger mistakes in hashkofa (ralbag, for instance) and we don’t discount them as individuals.

Also should mention that im not dismissing rabbi twerskys opinion; i feel it was a pious error that an eved Hashem made based on his experiences with addicted individuals. He’s far more of an eved Hashem and baal middos than i am, and I’m sure his intentions were pure as can be.

Here’s another chidush – if you don’t want machlokes, don’t bring up controversial topics. The back and forth began when some were accused of omitting the faculty of yeshiva university. Then reasons were given as to why the yeshiva world does not consider the school to be a yeshiva, etc..

While vital for addicts and very powerful, AA’s philosophy isn’t normative judaism and representative of milchemes hayetzer. From what I’ve seen, addicts are taught that they’re not fighting the yatzer hora anymore, but are fighting a disease in their minds which can be cured by submitting to a higher power.

Christian theology is replete with “we’re all sinners” and that the only way to salvation is through their savior, not through keeping the mitzvos. This is the essence of Pauline doctrine; gone is the covenant of “acts” and now is the covenant of “by your faith, be it”.

So they learned in church that you’re hopeless, up for eternal damnation and unable to reach God on your own without their mamzer. They applied it to their situation and in that one instance, where someone is addicted, the idea of hopelessness and submission works. And for this condition it works wonders.

Judaism says that you have bechirah, and are held to task for your decisions. “It is not a distant matter for you”, the Torah is reachable, and is not, as christians say, unattainable and too high a standard to demand of people (they actually say that the whole teason for the torah is to show israel that they couldn’t do it and need faith alone…afra lepumayhu)

In fighting the yatzer hora, we don’t just give it all up to Hashem. We fight. And we fight like our life depends on it… because it does. Part of that fight is davening, and there’s a guarantee that Hashem will help. Yes,the YH is stronger than a person, but do not mistake heavenly aid with submission and feeling helpless. If you don’t feel helpless about going to work, you shouldn’t feel helpless about fighting a regular YH.

Ujm; i don’t have a set store anymore; i just chop a rein whenever i see a sale for something of decent material under 20

I’m quite disappointed that Burlington stopped carrying (as far as i can tell) white shirts. I found very good quality shirts there for 10 each, sometimes a little more or less.

What does individual aveiros have to do with open chilul Hashem? Any yeshivoa would close down rather than accommodate such a chilul Hashem – a thousand times worse than the reason for the closing of the volozhin Yeshiva. Sometimes you need to close. YU wouldn’t close, because it doesn’t believe in the sanctity of its institution.

From where do you derive that if not for YU there wouldn’t be a cope program in agudah? Most litvishe boys went to college, but they went to Brooklyn college at night after yeshivah and held their nose. No one needed YU

Hirschian? Is that why rav hirsch’s community in Washington heights was the most vocal opponent of YU in the country? Give me a break. Rav hirsch wrote about secular studies being the hand maids of Torah while Norman lamm said that they’re basically equal.

Zushy, rav matisyohu, he should have a refuah shlaima, is a Mashgiach, and a big person, but to my knowledge was never a rosh yeshiva.

Lakewood roshei Yeshiva i assumed were self understood.

Reb E: good point. Rav Frankel of vayalipol, rav Ephraim wachsman, and rav Shmuel dishon come to mind, but I’m not very familiar.

common, getting rejected because you’re frum by goyim is one thing – that is to be expected, and is part of galus.

The point here is that this shows how non-jewish and in fact anti-Jewish average Israeli culture is. While marketed as a safe place for Jews, the ones who actually practice Judaism are derided and discriminated against.

Also, rav elimelech biderman is a rosh yeshiva?

Rav meir hershkowitz, rav reuvain feinstein, rav elya ber wachtfogel, rav elya brudny, rav yosef savitsky, rav shlomo feivel shustal, rav motel dick, rav meir stern, to name a few that come to mind.