AviraDeArah

The shailoh was paskened centuries ago. The radvas on the rambam says that if we paskened like him, כבר נשתכחה תורב מישראל ח”ו
The nosei keilim don’t bring it. Shu”a doesn’t say it. The achronim almost all say that in their time there isn’t even a middah tovah to not taking tzedaka to learn.

Let it go. We don’t hold of 1/3 or so of the rambam’s own shitos – why do people harp on this so much?
Rav Moshe writes that it’s gaavah to want to follow that shitoh nowadays.

I don’t know if he actually said those things; he was a thinker and statesman, not a posek – neither were most of the chief rabbis. R. Hertz saved jews during the war, but it doesn’t make his use of bible critics “when they’re right” any less wrong. Same here.

Avodah zara and abuzrayhu are part of the 3 chamuros. They’re something we don’t do to save a life. We don’t find that you can violate the 3 chamuros meshum aivah, or supposed “chilul Hashem”

How do you teach kids to avoid any other yatzer hora? You shower them with the beauty of torah and mitzvos, and show them that you’re happy, even when you’re not; here and there you drop in lines about how we’re so fortunate, and that the goyim don’t have this beautiful torah…they spend all their time wasting away in front of screens and convince themselves that they’re enjoying life. Stressing over and over that something is assur doesn’t do the trick; it doesn’t work for lashon hora, tznius, bitul torah, or any other “biggie”

When I got into learning, I didn’t have a yatzer hora for internet, movies, etc…it was all empty and unappealing. If you get boys into learning, and girls into chessed, your work is 90% done.

Goldi, it’s a shame that a non-jewish queen’s hashkofos are closer to yiddishkeit than a frum person.

Most marriages end because of normal human failures and frailties, especially money. For every divorce that involved abuse (from either spouse) there are hundreds, even thousands, that don’t.

The percentage of people known to commit domestic abuse contrasted with the divorce rate can serve as ample proof of this. More than half of all marriages end in divorce in America, and fewer than 5% of the population are guilty of domestic violence(as per wikipedia) – that’s a pretty strong indication that despite sensationalist reporting of abused people, it’s not a very common cause of divorce.

Malchus is something we should learn to incorporate into our lives; we’re supposed to give honor to royalty because we can use it as a springboard to having respect for the real King of Kings. A bracha is made with shem Hashem on a king, because through seeing the middah of malchus down here, we can relate to malchus in shomayim. Malchusa d’arah ke’ain malchusa de’rakiah, chazal say.

It’s not a surprise that England is far ahead of most of the world in refinement, and proper behavior. Their culture has malchus wired into it; American culture, on the other hand, is rebellious by nature.

rescue, and did that yeshiva have more bochurim learning or did they just cocoon themselves in wherever there was wifi?

Common, he’s referring to the UNESCO list on Wikipedia – yiddish is considered endangered…in Europe. Because there aren’t a lot of yidden there who speak yiddish, especially when compared to previous generations.

In north America, it’s on the rise, clearly.

Reb e – who mentioned yeshiva university? And i apologize to ben if i misunderstood

“other than a throwaway to keep the kids busy,”

Thank you for contributing to the woes of educators in our community by shortening the attention span of your children to nil by giving them screens to keep them busy. There are a lot of things that can keep kids busy – ever try giving a 5 year old boy a cardboard box? It becomes his spaceship.

Ben, are you joking? Did you just take lomdishe terms and throw them into a sentence?

Ben, it’s a shame that learning, whatever amount of it you’ve done, has left such a bad taste in your mouth that you’re making fun of it and those who do.

Rashi in the beginning of bechukosai lists levels a person goes down once they stop learning torah b’iyun, with ameilus. First they don’t know how to practice the mitzvos, then they scorn those that do, they scorn those who learn… it’s about a 7 step process before going off the derech. How far along are you? Maybe just try learning again from a “hip” rabbi who you can “vibe” with and see that learning is actually enjoyable?

Marx – eating before davening, ba’krai, is in fact assur – sukkah is a real example. We know that it means a snack; now the poskim do deliberate over what a snack is, but they’d all agree that a meal is assur.

Here, we’re being shown that making a kevius of study is prohibited. A fixed study isn’t the same as “how much food”, because here the fixed study is an entirely different activity than if done casually.

What other meaningful pshat in kevius/akrai is there other than kevius = set, and akrai means “here and there”… You walk by a bookshop with an interesting book, and you read it a little. You’re in a bathroom, and you have a physics book as rav belsky had in his, or you go to a zoo or museum and learn about nature… Those are “here and there*

A bochur in yeshiva who studies science bein hasdorim will not be doing so everyday, at the same time. There are 2 periods of bein hasdorim, and I’m sure he has other things to do (like rest, if he’s actually learning, run errands, etc)

Rav Moshes whole point is that during that time, it’s not set up what you’re involved in, so you can play basketball, read the paper, read a science book, go on a walk, or do whatever it is you want to do.

Not every yatzer hora is assur. The Tanya stating that the neshoma is clothed in tumah when learning secular studies that aren’t lisem shomayim, also doesn’t mean that it’s assur.

Bein hasdorim means not when learning. The question wasn’t about making a seder in those studies, but rather to do it when they’re not busy. If the questioner had phrased it “every day at 1pm” it would be a kevius and would be assur.

It’s not “my pshat” – if you saw the word in any other context, like eating outside a Sukkah, eating before bedikas chometz…we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

What do you call a desire to do something not for Hashem? Lf course it’s a yatzer hora. Rav Moshe allows a lot of things which aren’t ideal or the best thing to do. He allows a man and woman to live in the same house in separate rooms to “test” themselves to see if they should get married. Does he recommend it? He knows his audience. If he didn’t allow it they’d probably do it be’issur. American jews had American ta’avos, biases, and challenges. It took someone with tremendous “playtzes” to know where and when to draw the line.

ben….please, read the thread. we’re not discussing college in general for parnosa. that’s a machlokes – some held it was allowed (rav elchonon, the rogotchover), some held it was flat out assur (rav baruch ber) some held it’s assur for people who are successful in learning (rav moshe, rav aharon) and others held it was ok even for them, bedieved – none of that has to do with the issues being discussed here.

here the poskim say that you are not allowed to study secular subjects in a set manner.

This means you cant study it because you enjoy it. You certainly cant study it bekevius if you believe in it ideologically, that it makes you a more refined person, or smarter.

If a person weak-minded individual and it takes years to master the definition of Pi in order to understand a piece of gemara…that’s a nebach, and the torah would have made him smart enough not to need such things, but “hypothetically” i think such a thing would be allowed, because it’s for the sake of torah.

you can read all about niflaos haboreh casually – like reb E posted; I read that in 1 minute. I did not have a seder in the topics he wrote about.

Let’s summarize:

casual learning = okay, and maybe even a mitzvah of recognizing Hashem

Course learning, set learning, organized, or any kind of “kevius” = assur in general, machlokes if allowed for parnosa.

EVEN then, you’re not allowed to learn apikorsus or from books that contain it. That’s clear. What people did in their youth doesn’t change the halacha.

now I see what you were referring to with acher – I didn’t mean that we shouldn’t learn from Norman lamm, which is true regardless – I am saying that it is he and his haskalah ilk who believe that one merits olam haba by learning math and science in and of themselves. he believed that there’s no difference between math and a piece of gemara r”l.

we agree that math and science are tools, either for parnosa, learning torah, or appreciating Hashem. they are not ends in and of themselves, as Lamm thought – for that he was a heretic.

reb e, you keep on quoting examples of why we need to know some relatively basic math. agreed. please don’t keep avoiding the topic at hand – you can enough secular studies to understand gemara in the bathroom, which the netziv said that the rambam did. the halacha is clear that you are not permitted to have a fixed study schedule in secular studies; that has absolutely nothing to do with the need to know certain things to help you in learning.

you’re usually very level headed; this seems to have struck a nerve. I’m sorry for offending you, but halacha doesn’t change.

i have no idea what the comparison to acher is; im saying that poskim forbid fixed studies of secular studies, the examples given in the shach include math and science….there’s not really a discussion here – it’s a black and white psak din.

You wanted sources, and I gave you some. Please look at the issue objectively.

We’re not speaking about chochmas yavanis – that’s something that the gemara said you can learn “when it’s neither day nor night” because it has no purpose. “Shaar chochmos” refers to math, science, astronomy, etc..

The shach on that rema says explicitly that we’re referring to math and science.

As for the shach’s grouping of kabalah in his list of shaar chochmos; i think – and this is just a theory – that he’s referring to people who aren’t mekubalim, and who read zohar because it’s interesting. Many people who “learn kabalah” really just read about ideas that they don’t understand. For torah she’baal peh, you’re not mekayam the mitzvah unless you’re understanding what you’re learning (unlike chumash). For the non-mekubal, the shach holds that you’re not engaging in limud hatorah on the level of sod; you’re just prattling away, so it’s no different than sichas chulin or chochmos.

Ben – that is ziyuf hatorah, baseless and contrary to what the rishonim say across the board. We’re talking about chochmos, established wisdom – the rishonim refer to math, etc… you’re not allowed to have a kevius in them because it’s an affront to Torah.

In chazals time there was plenty of empirical study, too.

It’s assur. The rishonim say it, like the rashba and rivash above – and they had plenty of science in their time too.

Reb e – you’re discussing the value of secular studies as they relate to Torah, a trodden path in the rishonim and achronim. Knowledge just to have knowledge is, first, a taavah that the Tanya has very strong words for, and secondly, if done bekevius, it’s assur

Shu”a expressly forbids the consistent, organized study of secular subjects (YD 246, rema).

Parnassa is a heter, once you’ve got that, you’re free to go back to spending more time learning.

Anything you need to learn for the sake of your limud hatorah is permitted, as well as any limud that’s casual, like listening to lectures here and there, or in the bathroom

Ym, maybe your neighbor doesn’t have children, or has had serious problems with them…some people take solace in feeding animals. Pity them; rav yaakov yosef Herman (all for the boss) used to say “when there’s rachmanun you don’t need savlanus”

This has nothing to do with sefardim/ashkenazim. The baba sali was known to never let himself be exposed to untznius women. He would walk with his eyes covered, guided by talmidim.

Someone once asked him how he was able to see things in ruach hakodesh. He said, if you guard your eyes like i do, you will automatically see things the way i do.

The chofetz chaim and many rabbonim were at a meeting in his house. His little granddaughter was pacing back and forth in the next room, and the chofetz chaim told her to stop – he said “do you think we’re malaachin?”

This story is in multiple books, including harav hadmomeh lemalaach, ironically.

Tzadikim are extremely sensitive, and need more shmirah from women than regular people. Either the story about rav ovadia is false, which i think it is, or he thought it was a boy, or he simply wasn’t on the level of gedolei olam – I’m inclined to believe either of the first two.

Marx, “we” don’t know about the supposed singer, but i believe she was a child in any case.

The header of the teshuvos are always about about krias shema etc… I don’t have time at the moment to look at his teshuva in YO, but I’m pretty sure it begins that way too; you can’t be medayak from the fact that he just ends off saying it’s not ervah that it means you can listen to it. It’s not a pasuk in chumash.