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I don’t know how i forgot about rav elya chazan lol
And i also don’t know why you’re putting rosh yeshiva’s names in acronyms.
They learn yiddish no differently than public school kids learn English. Literature helps to develop a polished speech and writing ability, but that’s not the focus of chasidishe chinuch. They know yiddish because it’s their mother tongue.
Right, you weren’t asking who we pasken like. You were asking who was historically correct, and by extension, who was right and wrong. Beis shamai were “right”, and we will indeed pasken like them when moshiach comes, according to the arizal. Beis hill were also right, and we pasken like them now.
Smerel, please quote the”explicit” mention of such clubs at Touro. I looked and didn’t find any.
Also, touro is a college. It doesn’t call itself a yeshiva. It’s wrong to have one under the ownership of a frum jew, but in a yeshiva is next-level, tzelem beheichal bad. I say so because YU bills itself as a yeshiva; i consider it a university with a religious studies department.
Ubiq, ever hear of “man on the street” examples of how people don’t know who Abraham Lincoln was, or who the president is, etc… they’re often taken at college campuses. While amusing, they’re not statistically representative of the majority of people.
A few years ago, an organization posted signs everywhere in boro park with heimishe people’s faces on them, captioned “och hub genadvant a nir”. I am not fluent in yiddish, so i asked a random guy on the street what a nir was, and he said a kidney.
Chasidim know what diabetes is, and they know what kidneys are. You may have met a handful of people with serious developmental disabilities or people similar to the college kids who don’t know who the president is.
It’s simply hateful. You’re misrepresenting your own brethren and you’re full of hate.
In yiddish they call diabetes “der sukar krank.”. My grandfather, a yiddish speaking doctor from Europe, wrote a book in yiddish on it.
Ever read the yiddish magazines? They’re full of health news, and mention diabetes, heart disease, etc… Quite often.
perhaps we should institute tiktok dances for selichos, since thats what the younger generation is into…for kiruv, you can do anything as long as people “want” to be close to Hashem…and if you say that making selichos into coordinated tiktok dances is wrong, or out of place….how dare you turn people away from the Torah!
That’s rav shlomo heiman – what does that have to do with “REC”?
Also, rav shlomo spent a tremendous amount of time on rav akiva eiger. So much so, that when he was about to be niftar, he said “breng a beinkel for reb akiva aiger”
Ben, who is REC? The only rosh yeshiva of Torah Vodaas (not mir) with those initials that I can think of is rav eliezer kahanoh, which probably spelled his name with a K.
This list is full of arrogance. It’s not our place to decide which half of klal yisroel, which half of rishonim are “right” and which are “wrong”.
In the dead sea scrolls caves, for instance, they found both rashi and rabbeinu tam tefillin.
Eilu v’eilu divrei elokim chaim. Good chazal to acknowledge.
Most goyim don’t go to the olam ha’emes, they simply cease to exist. Exceptionally good and bad goyim are rewarded and punished respectively.
I disagree; the queen and her family did a tremendous amount of charity, reached out to countries who were newly independent of the UK…she was very friendly to the Jewish community as well.
Torah im derech eretz, a mahalach based on a mishnah, has nothing to do with “Torah” umada, the unsourced ramblings of ignorami who equate, chas veshalom, Torah and algebra. Rav Hirsch called the chochmos the handmaids of Torah, not anywhere near equals, nor important in and of themselves.
Have any doubts? See rav breuer, rav shimon schwab, and other yekkishe rabbonim, heirs to Torah im derech eretz, who are more anti YU than most litvishe.
That would take him out of the line to be king then…
Yserb, actually, many say that the gra and the rambam did their secular learning in the bathroom. The gaon said of himself that he found only a few minutes of time during an entire year that he didn’t learn enough.
He also wrote that to the extent that one is missing in secular knowledge, that will impact how much he doesn’t understand torah. Yet he does not argue with the…. Again, shulchan aruch iron clad rule, not to make it a set study.
When you learn torah 1 percent of the time and level of the gaon, then you can worry about not knowing enough math and science
אכשר דרא
Boruch Hashem we are past such things.
Reb E – if what you heard is accurate, i yield. My statement was just my own sevara
Aaq, my “background” for teaching math and science is that i took (and did well on) the regents in high school. I also enjoy reading science magazines in the bathroom. I can’t say I’ve reviewed much of trigonometry, but i sometimes find myself doing long division in my head when I’m distracted.
I made the lessons fun; we did experiments in things like vacuums, oil and water..,i tried to add hashkofa in my lessons too, which they appreciated. I pepper my talk with yiddish; that and my beard make me register to them as jewish. The principal also referred to me as rabbi when talking to them, but they were told to call me Mr Avirah when in class.
Children enjoy science and math; it’s English that they devalue. When i was teaching in Williamsburg, the kids loved learning science, niflaos haboreh, and math – they only shut down when it was time for reading/writing.
It’s hard to call it bitul Torah if they’re not meant to be learning during that time. Bitul zman, it is.
Touro does not show support of toeva groups on its website. It has a disclaimer at the bottom saying that they don’t discriminate based on XYZ and it includes “orientation” but that’s the extent of it.
Also, touro does not claim to be a Yeshiva.
ubiq – satmar does not think that lakewood level litvishe people are modern, nor do they think that of beis hatalmud, south fallsburg, or other very yeshivishe places. But a satmar boy would be out of place in such yeshivos, mostly socially.
Vien is much closer culturally, and chasan sofer is as well. Satmar respect any austrian/hungarian group, including oberlanders
Ujm, Torah was never a choice in YU – the choice is between fully embracing goyishkeit, or only embracing 1980s-1990s goyishkeit mixed with biblical and semi Talmudic monotheism
Ujm, a satmar chosaid will not fit into stolin. Vien and chasan sofer… they’d have a shot.
I taught in a chasidishe school in Williamsburg which was about 30% satmar. No one’s chaining them to specific schools – most Williamsburg chadorim have the same hashkofa standards.
AAQ, i was there – go teach in satmar and find out. I saw it, my fellow teachers saw it… it’s just a metzius
As for your tirade on parental responsibility… You’re not an authority over them. Your introductory opinions aren’t binding on them. Get over yourself.
Yserb, go to Williamsburg and stop reading blogs. You’ll see that everything you’re saying is bogus.
The average chasidishe father did not go to college but went into business.
Satmar had an expo last month with 300 chasidishe-run businesses. The organizer, yoeli fried (himself a successful business owner who learned marketing from reading food ads) said that over 1,000 applied, but there was no room.
These are businesses that can afford booths in an expo.
And they all hire dozens of chasidishe yidden.
It’s not “here and there”, it’s literally everywhere – chasidim do well in business; i knew that before i was a torah jew and my view of chasidim was that they were backward and weird. I knew that they were big in real estate, Jewelry, retail, etc…
It’s the opposite – the ones who go to college are salaried and struggle to make ends meet like the majority of the litvishe world.
I also agree that in the finer details – exactly how much to learn, which books, etc… it’s not the rebbe or the dayan who decides that. But the overall approach, is definitely guided by their daas torah.
Ymr – a better metric would be to look at the classwork assignments,and not just the 2 cherry picked papers they found which fit their narrative. I taught at a satmar-type school, and i had kids writing cute poems in, i would say, 4th grade level english, when they were in 6th. That’s pretty good for a 2nd language. Their math skills were very sharp; they did mental math faster than i did.
And that’s just English. Their first language, which they are all literate and fluent in, is yiddish.
My kids wrote entire grammen in yiddish, short stories…their kodesh homework included writing assignments…the times omits the language arts that is definitely gained in yiddish.
ymr – my apologies, I wasn’t clear. When I said that they “don’t take them,” I was referring to the way they take them. If someone fills in random answers, they’re not taking a test; they’re filling in random answers without even reading the questions.
In chasidishe yeshivos, the standardized tests are answered at random. They do not ATTEMPT to take the test, so pointing to their 99% fail rate is misinformation.
This fact is easily verifiable; for an “investigative” reporter, it’s shameless bias and cherry picking.
I guarantee that if a hispanic “latinx” community wanted to keep their kids speaking spanish, and have a spanish speaking school, they would not be treated this way. They would be appreciated as diverse, etc.. no matter what the results of their system would be.
But if Jews speak yiddish and hebrew, and run businesses, and don’t father children and run away….that’s not ok.
ymr – Standardized tests are only proof if they’re actually taken. I’ve taught title 1 classes in williamsburg chadorim – they do not take the tests. They fill in any answer at random, to get through it. That’s because when I’m teaching them, tests aren’t part of the curriculum.
The Times (and you ) did not verify this basic, simple observation. Don’t just look at data – ask the kids and teachers about the standardized tests, and you will understand why nobody passes – it’s because nobody’s taking them.
The girls do take them, and they are not below the public school average, even the Times had to admit.
I would send my children to schools that work for them, and are in keeping with one of the valid mesoros. I do not think i am capable, nor do i plan on raising my children in the satmar community.
I speak English in my house, and my mesorah is that it’s best for most boys and all girls to graduate high school, unless the boy is in 10th grade, outstanding in learning, and will undoubtedly use the time spent on secular studies to learn.
Sara schnirer changed chinuch for women; she gained the approval of the gedolei hador. If chasidim want to present their case to their rabbonim – by all means they can. I don’t see why they have to change, as I’ve been saying – it works. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. They don’t need to cause an upheaval just to accommodate people who choose to go off the derech – that shouldn’t be an option regardless of circumstances.
If there’s anything i think the chasidishe world needs, and I’m not in a position to lecture them, it’s mental health awareness. It’s something we all are learning about, in all parts of klal yisroel. It can be mussar/chasidus based, it can be from heimishe sources, vut in all of our yeshivos there is a need for such things. But it does need to come from within, and it can save many neshomos.
besalel – agreed. You’re entitled to think that chasidim should teach more English; and if you’re chasidish, and you want to petition the change from within the community, al taharas hakodesh – go ahead! things change; the issue here is government control. And if we give in even a drop, we’ve lost.
I also had in mind ubiq, with the parroting statement – that the system failed them by design. That the system is designed to make jews fail in life.
It’s not. It’s designed to teach torah and prepare the majority for a life in business, and a minority for klei kodesh.
“Right now the schools are taking money, not following the law and failing some of their own children” – this is parroting the Times. It’s simply not true. Chasidim lose money to the government; what the yeshivos take (and reinvest in the community, in ways that the times doesn’t approve of) does not cover the losses that they suffer, in giving hard earned tax money to LGBT indoctrination camps, aka public schools.
Marx, I’m not obfuscating(you seem to like that word very much), I’m saying that chasidim are successful by every metric that society should care about. They are successful in the home, the family, the community, and in their dealings with other parts of the Jewish community.
You didn’t address the blatant bias in the times’ not addressing the overwhelming business success of the community. Not a word. Just drugs, rabbinic control, political clout, and poorly written english assignments. Why don’t they look at how public school children in the Bronx write english? they don’t. they don’t because that would be racist, to target black people and other “marginalized” groups.
The “taking money” figure was a total lie, as I showed above. You haven’t addressed that either.
They’re on food stamps because they can be. That money will be going to deadbeat dads, drug addicts, criminals, and other pieces of garbage. If it’s available, why not avail themselves of the money? They have large families, and even with a decent income, it’s not easy. I don’t think the majority are dependent on it though.
The numbers are very clear – the chasidishe parent supports the public schools. The amount that they receive for their children dwarfs that which they give in taxes to public schools, so that children can be taught to change their genders and that all white people are racist.
The “billion” dollars is a hoax and total fake news. They’re losing, not taking. Do they mention the many hundreds of billions that chasidishe businesses pay in taxes to a system that they don’t benefits from?
Substantial equivalency was never defined or enforced; they left us alone because our community was doing just fine – far better than most public schools, in terms of income and community stability.
Mentioning the strength of the community is also important, because it is clear evidence that chasidishe education isn’t “brutal, religious moral study” as they claim, but rather the sum of the experience – though totally different from the way goyim see education – is effective at producing productive, contributing members of society with stable families, good income, and lots of tax payers who fund the salaries of these hateful antisemites.
I’m referring to the former students; the 1% who end up as such people in Yale or Harvard are definitely not representative of the norm, and making it out to be as if they are is horribly inaccurate.
Mentioning that the majority are successful in business or blue collar work is a simple, demonstrable fact to present. They are also not illiterate; yiddish is a language and they use it efficiently.
You’re just parroting all of their talking points. You’re sounding like a MAGA supporter, just repeating whatever the times says as if it’s torah misinai.
Marx, it’s not multi cultural. It’s about respecting daas torah, whether that be the satmar rov, or rav moshe feinstein. Chasidishe gedolim were the architects for their communities. They are entitled to their opinions. They held that English should he kept at a minimum. They’re successful, and they are not harming any other part of klal yisroel in their ways – chasidim support many needy litvishe yidden, especially in eretz yisroel.
The Times’ piece was anything but accurate. They interviewed drug addicts, drop outs, and the most nebach people they could find. They didn’t interview a single average chasidishe businessman – that’s where they mostly go. And they’re very, very successful in business. They’re also very creative; Hamodia had a three-week series in their magazine showing the success of the heimish world in business, skilled labor and other parnosa fields.
The article did not mention the strong family structure, low crime, drug and unemployment rates, or anything else which shows the success of the education system. It’s a different kind of success, it’s not designed to produce accountants.
You’ve bought into actual sinas chinom – not the fake seenat chinam that the modern world dreams up, but real, bona fide baseless hatred of another jew.
Smerel, don’t believe everything you hear. I don’t think for a minute that rav shlomo zalman allowed writing on shabbos to protect the diplomatic interests of a shmad state. No Jews would be in danger if Israel snubbed Jordan a drop.
Abuzrayhu is yehereg velo yaavor. Do you have a source that this isn’t abuzrayhu?
Yeshivos get $2000 per child. That’s less than 10% of what every public school child gets. Chasidishe parents pay with their tax dollars, far more than 2000 per child; yeshivos therefore, aren’t “taking” government money at all – the government is taking from chasidishe parents who don’t use public schools.
Let’s say you personally believe children should have a modern chinuch, or a litvishe chinuch, or a yekkish one – you need to respect the chasidishe opinion on chinuch. It works. In many ways it works better than all the others. You have no right to pass judgement and allow the goyim to be rodef fellow yidden just because you think they have a “valid taanah”
Ym, marx – learn Jewish history; whenever the government tries to tell us how to do anything, it doesn’t end well. It wouldn’t have ended well if this was 20 years ago when things were relatively sane, because it would bring in anti Torah values into our schools and our children’s minds.
It’s not “fear mongering” – what’s to stop the government from saying that substantial equivalency requires a robust education in gender studies and tolerance of LGBT? They pump the kids full of this stuff in public school.
Give it 2 years – first it’s “basic English” then it’s “on grade level”, until they mandate that we spend just as much time on secular studies as public schools, including mandatory gym classes, music, etc…then give it 3 more years and after they will have reduced yeshivos into after-school talmud torahs, they will force us to have the full gamut of gender and LGBT in our class.
They will abolish dress codes, as they are gender constrictive; tznius is a violation of “children’s rights” (a movement which wants to limit parent’s abilities to educate their children religiously)
This is what’s happening in public schools.
The hate speech in the NYT and the gezeros on chinuch should spur us only to reach inward and see how we can improve our chinuch – in limudei kodesh! My rebbe rav belsky said during the gezeros on metzitzah b’peh, that it’s just like by chanukah, when the cohanim had become complacent in their avodah… Hashem then threatened the avodah and Torah altogether. By milah, rav belsky said that younger mohalim give a small peck to be yotzei zayn, and don’t treat the mitzvah carefully.
When chinuch is threatened, it’s a sign that we’re not doing enough of it.
Gadol, when the gender obsessed government is given free reign in our yeshivos, that is not something we can give in to an inch. Chinuch is our lifeblood. We’re not talking yeshivishe standards, we’re not talking about chasidim..if the government and the anti torah forces have their way, they will not allow even modern Orthodox education. They will have drag queens in our schools, no tznius dress code, pride month will be obligatory, and so on. Understand what they’ve done to the universities and the public schools.
We’re next.
If “srormfront” wrote an article about how jews are nasty and bring dirt wherever they go, would you say it’s “time to have a conversation” about how we treat our neighborhoods?
Antisemitism and Torah hated, both of which which the NYT article personified, shouldn’t cause us anything other than grief, pain, and an impetus to defend our way of life .. Even if you’re not chasidish, and your children take regents classes.
This is a time for solidarity, for solemn prayer, for making a public fast day if tomorrow the vote is sealed. Our future in America is in jeopardy; you know they won’t stop until every Yeshiva is co-ed, LGBT friendly, and barely teaches any torah.
im sure michael jackson inspired the boy to keep the mitzvos and shteig in learning.
Anon, go ahead! As long as you’re making a simple European wedding where the only people eating the seudah are family and very close friends…the seudah being a shabbos seudah
Weddings themselves weren’t extravagant in our mesorah. A bar mitzvah was just some schnapps and cake in shul, from what elderly jews have told me.