AviraDeArah

Let’s remember 3rd grade parsha class.

Devarim 13:

כי יקום בקרבך נביא או חלם חלום ונתן אליך אות או מופת

When a navi or dreamer of a dream rises among you, and gives you a sign or miracle

ובא האות והמופת אשר דבר אליך לאמר נלכה אחרי אלהים אחרים אשר לא ידעתם ונעבדם

And the sign or the miracle that he spoke to you comes, saying ‘let’s go after other gods that you haven’t known, and serve them.

לא תשמע אל דברי הנביא ההוא או אל חולם החלום ההוא כי מנסה ה” אלקיכם אתכם לדעת הישכם אהבים את ה” אלקיכם בכל לבבכם ובכל נפשכם

Do not listen to the words of that navi or that dreamer of dreams, for **Hashem your God is testing you**, to know among you are lovers of Hashem your God, with all of your heart and all of your soul.

Hashem is telling us clear, rochel btcha haketana – miracles will happen to test us and see if we will follow avoda zara. Tzadikei olam have said that nationalism is avodah zara, and it is indeed a false god that our fathers knew not, because it is a new, European ideology. Zionism is spelled out for you clearly in this parshah.

Square, miracles don’t prove things. Torah is laav bashonayim – we do not change our Torah because of them. Chumash itself warns us of false neviim performing miracles – it wouldn’t matter if it were written in the sky for us to break a halacha, we wouldn’t do it. Because halacha does not change based on anything, even a bas kol.

Also, that the land became fruitful is a metzius; when Jews are on it, for better or worse, it blossoms. It’s how eretz yisroel works. No different than two people trying to open a fingerprint scanner, with one having the coded fingerprint and the other not.

Maybe the fruits are a sign that the geulah is imminent – the gedolim have been saying that moshiach is coming soon since the chofetz chaim, and rav elchonon, his talmid, wrote an entire sefer about how we’re the last step,the ikvesa demeshicha – and he called zionism avodah zara in clear language.

So just as the fire coming down from shomayim on the side of baal should not make us change religions, i will not accept nationalism as it is avoda zara. Rav Nachman of Breslov and many other chassidishe rebbes write how before moshiach comes, the nisayon of emunah will be almost unbearable, there will be signs that the sitra achra is correct…only those with pure emunah will emerge unscathed. They give the fire of har Carmel as an example of what will happen – we will be tested. Will we follow Hashem or the baal? Will we go by our senses or our emunah and our purified Torah thinking?

It’s also interesting how communities which minimize nissim and believe in “rationalism,” castigating Torah jews as backwards, and denying things like golems or stories of mofsim performed by tzadikim, are happy to accept nissim performed for a mixed gender army of mechalelei shabbos.

Because it suits their purpose.

The Torah world looks to nissim to strengthen our existing mesorah.

The Nationalist world looks for nissim to PROVE their new avodah zara.

It’s a huge nisayon. Fight it.

“it destroys the neshama more than speaking (and more than watching the worst stuff on the internet (cuz it’s kineged a”z giloy arroyos and shfichas damim all together)”

As one of the gedolei yisroel said regarding neo chabad(who shall remain nameless), chochma, bina, daas…but no sechel!

We have a Lubavitcher saying that a holy jew who stumbles one time in the averah of lashon hora, is worse than a person who murders, commits adultery, or worships baal.

Get real. Chazal mean no such thing and you know it. Lashon hora is a huge averah, but do you honestly think a person who murders another Jew has less teshuva to do and his neshoma isn’t as tainted as someone who can’t hold in a juicy piece of lashon hora in the mikveh?

Seriously.

edited

Sechel, not every individual community accepted that aspect of rav vosner’s psak – the issue is that chabad continues to not condemn recreational and even unrestricted internet access, instead plays on these insufferable talking points of “the good in everything”

Yes there was a psak from the CH beis din. But this is an issue that requires mobilization; did you help russian jewry by just issuing statements? Did klal yisroel defeat reform, haskalah, zionism, karaism, tzedukim, etc….with one psak beis din? No.

And the proof to the disingenuousness of your statement is that chabad ks extremely into activism to reach its goals. If it cared about kedushah as a community as much as it cares about putting leather boxes and straps on men who are defiled with shiksas, it would do something about it. But it doesn’t.

Aaq, if you’ve ever lived in a Torah community, you’d know the answer to what you’re asking. I’m not making suggestions as to how to treat sinners. I am explaining what Torah communities do to someone who is oblivious to anything outside of crown heights and kfar chabad.

We don’t put every sinner in cherem. But we don’t let our kids play with their children, we don’t accept them into our schools, we don’t have much to do with them if they’re consistently sinning in an open way. We don’t consider them part of the community, but we won’t throw them out of shul either.

It has nothing to do with haskalah – sefardim don’t always do this because they’re afraid of intermarriage. But they do maintain a level of separation, especially if we’re talking about yeshiva sefardim like in Ateret. Non Yeshiva people, who grew up with Magen David co ed schools being the norm, are just not that frum to begin with. Their actions don’t represent a Torah community’s hanhagah.

Sechel…why do i so often begin my posts in response to Lubavitchers with the words “where do i begin.” There’s just layers and layers of… I’m not sure what it is. You can call it klipos.

First, even if it were common to see very untzius cleaning women and employees, that is still the “outside.” They are goytas. They’re not in the community. No frum jew would see them and have a minimized view of tznius. They might have shmiras aynayim issues, but that’s a separate issue.

The reality is that yeshivishe homes are, in fact, makpid that the help wears some sort of clothing, without giluy erva and the way they dress in the street. Most frum restaurants are the same. I’ve never seen a frum restaurant with women in states of undress.

So the presumption is wrong on two levels; factually, and in theory.

On to reality – having members of a Jewish community who are “frum” and are considered fully integrated without mitzvah observance weakens the mitzvos that they are not keeping in the eyes of those around them. That’s how lashon hora becomes acceptable. And that’s how boys end up falling away from learning, while girls gravitate away from tznius when their neighbors do not keep hilchos tznius.

This is why the frum community of crown heights has unique problems in this regard. Because they tolerate half baked BTs and gerim who don’t keep halacha, it has a trickle down effect on the mainstream.

One should not feel that they are frum if they abandon mitzvos, even one of them. You can show love to distant, sinful jews – whether they’re tinknos shenishbu or not – without bringing the mess into klal yisroel.

It’s more than a bad idea, it’s an abrogation of the ratzon Hashem

Ubiq, you’re going back to the knee jerk “no issur no problem” thing. It’s what high school kids say when their rebbeim tell them that following sports isn’t assur. Time to move on.

The shvuos are more than just “advice” or even the best advice; they’re the ratzon Hashem, expressed through chazal. What the zionists did was contrary to the ratzon Hashem according to everyone.

Again, Hashem warned us what would happen if we did it; that’s not just “advice”

And that’s only rav Belsky’s shitah. Most other gedolim I’ve spoken with do not agree with it, as hakatan is accurately quoting. They give other reasons why it’s not in the major poskim; the satmar rov says that it’s because they’re not separate halachos, but all part pf kefirah in bias hamoshiach. The same way the rambam etc do not codify every heicha timtza where one can violate an issur, they don’t mention this example very often. But they do mention it in their general writings and exhort people to follow them, so they clearly do not think it’s “just medrash” or whatever.

Smerel, I’m as anti zionist as they come, and i have never seen anyone put ben hecht on a pedestal or praise him.

We don’t need affirmation; we have a mesorah. As for his claims, rav michoel ber weissmandl writes similar things in eng case

And he was definitely admitting something by saying that his fellow zionists had collaborated with Nazis and contributed to the Holocaust. The fact that a zionist says that is just more historical evidence.

I think you’re looking to find hypocrisy where it doesn’t exist..maybe a rebbe of yours was hypocritical, maybe a rabbi you know gave you a bad taste for the Torah world, but your claims of us making ben hecht into some kind of hero or hanging on his every word are just not true.

I’m close to many elements of the yeshiva world, all of which are anti-Zionist, and none have had anything different to say about hecht than what i wrote above. Satmar, on the other hand, often don’t know who he is. They don’t need to debate zionism with their neighbors like we do in yeshivos.

Square, where does the haflaah say that?

Right, what does any of that have to do with the Torah world opposing the state? See above regarding the UN. The oaths don’t depend on what some goyim say. There are alsp opinions that hold that it doesn’t matter if all of them agree.

Ubiq, תחת אשר לא עבדת את ה אלקיך בשמחה…. Isn’t a din either, yet national calamities occur because of it. Rav Belskys pshat is very simple, but you’re being dismissive. Not being a din doesn’t mean “case closed.” Hashem reveals to us in the Torah, through chachamim, what He wants us to do. And that includes our behavior in Galus.

Chazal learned the parsha of Yaakov and eisav before meeting with the Roman rulers, to learn and remind themselves of the yesodos, the ways one must behave in galus to be safe.

Now is that hanhagah – giving gifts, flattery, etc…is that a din? No. It’s how Hashem taught us, through the example of Yaakov avinu, our heiligeh zaydeh, who was the first yid in galus.

So too, the oaths are a pathway to security when dealing with goyim, and they are not to be taken lightly…. Hashem himself said He would permit our flesh to be hunted….din or not, it’s extremely important. Go over this a few times, let it marinate, because you’re coming from a perspective of “no din? No problem!” which is not how chazal teach us. There are other such examples, including a menuval bershus hatorah.

Regarding why Jews were targeted in Europe, gedolim would often ask why. Tach vetat was explained to the tosfos yom tov in a shailas chalom from shomayim, that it was due to talking in shul. The chofetz chaim said trouble in his days was due to chilul shabbos and lashon hora.

No gedolim ever go with “well there’s always antisemitism so we don’t know why X happened, because look, Y people were better about it and yet they still were punished”

Learn the chofetz chaims seforim on this. Look at the warnings about the Holocaust from the meshech chochma and others. This attitude you picked up in the baalebatish circles is not the way gedolei yisroel think; it’s intellectual laziness.

Smerel, there’s a good reason for that – nobody, not satmar, brisk, neturei karta in yerushalayim, or the rest of the Torah world, which are anti-Zionist, has ever said that israel should surrender to the Arabs, because of the very reason you said. It will cost Jewish lives – this is a part of why zionism is bad, that it costs Jewish lives.

There isn’t a safe way out of the distress that the zionists put us in. The satmar rov in the early days of the state said it should be given to the UN, and the brisker rov said they should give back everything in 1948, but that was then – in today’s situation, not a single gadol or talmid chacham will say that Israel has that option.

The only people who go around saying that are the fanatical, USand UK based neturei karta, which stole the name of a group of yerushalmi yidden who were just more outspoken against zionism than others and were opposed to dealing with the government.

Square, it’s in the gemara, not the medrash. And have you ever heard of the sifri/sifra? They’re medrashim which are halacha.

The dvar Hashem as relayed through chazal in the gemara says if you do this, Hashem will permit your flesh to be hunted like animals of the field.

That’s not a mussar vort or a story with a lesson. It is a reality, and it happened when the heretical, G-d hating zionists violated the shvuos.

I should add that שכר הליכה for shul is an open mishnah in avos (5:14), הולך ואינו עושה, שכר הליכה בידו, so it is clear that there is schar for the act of going to shul – the only machlokes is if there’s an inyan to be matriach one’s self for extra schar halicha, as i wrote above.

Menachem, that’s true, but what’s on there might serve as a bellwether for the community s attitudes to a certain extent – specifically because it can ve edited by anyone, so whatever remains posted reflects the chabad online consensus…again, to a certain degree.

Ubiq, there are many answers as to why it’s not mentioned in the rif, rosh and rambam’s yad. One of them, which my rebbe rav belsky said, is that they aren’t dinim, but they are realities that chazal warn us about. If we do X, we will he hunted, like the gemara says, as animals in the field. Slaughtered. And that’s precisely what happened.

Chazal teach us how to live as individuals and as communities. The 3 shvuos are part of that mesorah; a very important part. But they aren’t dinim, according to rav belsky, so they aren’t brought in halacha seforim very often. That in no way means we can ignore them – chazal say it, after all.

Saying the rambaN doesn’t “hold” of the shvuos is only possible if you don’t read his maamar al hageulah where he QUOTES it beferush!

The kasha on him vis a vis how he could hold of a chiyuv to live in EY while there’s a prohibition on going there en masse is dealt with extensively in the poskim. It’s not that big of a deal. The simple answer is that everyone should try, but Hashem will prevent some people and it won’t end up being en masse.

The balfour declaration (and even the UN partition plan) are irrelevant because when the zionists took over, the british were no longer baalei batim on the land. Their permission is just as valid as China’s; same with the UN – it doesn’t matter what most goyim say, if there is opposition (as in, the independence war with a bunch of Arab armies) then you do NOT have permission to go en masse.

Making a state is a separate issue; rav meir simcha never spoke of it, rather the issue was mass immigration. Declaring a state involves another shvuah, of not forcing a geulah; on that I don’t believe having permission helps.

מטונך – rashi is much more meduyak like me. I didn’t say that we learn anything specific about women from the story, rather we see a new darga in kibul schar, and that’s exactly what Rashi says. He doesn’t say that we learn that there is schar pesios, rather that a person should be מטריח themselves.

And if it’s a machlokes discussed in the gemara, that means it was debated; the gemara’s discussions were between members of the yeshiva. The words the almana said were “הלא שכר פסיעות יש” – she used the same expression used in bava metzia, “yesh,” that was what it was known as, much like “yesh zikah” vs “ain zikah.” She took rebbe yochanans shitah further and applied it to herself, and that she should go further out of her way in order to get the most pesios and therefore the most schar. Her expression sounds more of a reminder than her saying something new.

I don’t know if Rav even argues on the entire concept, that there’s schar for every step; he might just hold that it’s not an inyan to go out of your way to make more steps, much like we don’t wear multiple tzitzis, even though each one is a mitzvah.

Also, re, rebbe yochanan – the literal reading of the gemara sounds like the almanah taught him the concept of schar pesios; i find that very hard to believe.

So i think pshat in the gemara is like this; rebbe yochanan said we learned yiras Hashem from the besulah who davened that men not stumble because of her(a lesson indeed for women today who walk around dressed to the 9s with makeup and long shaitels “for mysefl”), and the reception of schar from an almamah who went to a further -away shul to daven – rebbe yochanan was saying that of course a man would do that, but a woman, who is not obligated to go to shell, would go out of her way… that’s a new leason in kibul schar, in how a person should go to great lengths to receive schar.

Note how rebbe yochanan does not say we learned schar pesios from the almanah.

Sechel…where to begin…

Rav shternbuch, aside from being an einikel of the gaon, is considered one of the world’s foremost authorities on the gra. He wrote teshuvos about the kol hator, as it was being used by zionists to spread their nationalist stuff. he proved that it was a forgery.

Next, most later achronim on shas skip almost all aggadeta; nothing specific to that gemara in Sanhedrin. The maharsha and maharal write on agadeta a lot on the daf, and there are many achronim who write on it in derashls(like yaaros dvash), but if you open a keren orah, aruch laner, etc…they skip the agadeta, as do almost all shiurim of roshei yeshiva.

Chok has a lot more; shulchan aruch, Zohar….could be she skipped parts. Who knows?

Da, i was saying pshat in the rambam. It’s a chidush, but i think it’s very meduyak in his words. I agree that there are poskim who say beferush that exceptional women may learn; the drishah is very well known. Not that there’s a clear psak in the matter, however I’m sure Sara Schnirer asked a shailoh before doing so.

Da, when girls in MO schools dress, daven, study mussar, keep away from boys, movies and goyishe music, and tremble before Hashem like ike Sara Schnirer, then we’ll talk. Until then it’s just “why can’t we” feminism.

The first thing my rebbe asked me when i wanted to take on a certain chumra, was whether or not my father was makpid.

He wasn’t.

But to daas Torah, shteiging cannot be done at the expense of disappointing a parent – unless of course we’re talking about a parent who’s שונא תורה and doesn’t want their kid to learn; for that we say kovod Hashem is more important.

A healthy child wants to serve Hashem and make his parents happy. The push for children to be their own person leads to foresaking mesorah and eventually going off the derech when the person thinks “this isn’t for me.”

It remains a clear halacha that we educate girls and boys differently. Ideally, we wouldn’t teach tanach either, but we must, and it is allowed bedieved, as per the rambam.

Rabbi yoshe ber accepted the words of the poskim as binding, as he was an Orthodox rabbi, and not a conservative clergyman. However this halacha is clear as day – far clearer than his chumros about krias hatorah; girls must not be taught gemara. They must be given different “opportunities” than boys, because they 1) will not be rabbis, even according to him, 2) don’t have a mitzvah to learn, 3) will be violating an issur if they learn gemara on their own and make divrei havai out of it

How is it עולה על הדעת that two sets of people with different obligations, responsibilities, should be taught the same way? It makes absolutely no sense.

Either he didn’t mean it seriously or he got caught in the avodaj zara of haskalah while writing that, ככפאו שד