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Lake, YO – they weren’t educated in learning. They read chok lyisroel if they weren’t complete am haaratzim, but many were unable to learn on their own. They would have been easy prey for the frei to shmad them.
The chazon ish knew that, and that’s why he said to allow speaking Hebrew. He lived there with them, so I’ll take his word for it
Yserb, a mumar for geneiva is not pasul for testifying about Kashrus al pi aid echad neeman be’issurim, as long as he’s known to be careful about kashrus
Damoshe – a statement that a gadol experienced something not seen since the rishonim doesn’t mean that they have the din of a rishon.
If you went to darchei you’d know about yeridas hadoros, that each generation is lower than the one above it.
“If the earlier ones were like angels, then we are like men, and if they were like men, then we are like donkeys, and not like the donkey of rebbe pinchas ben yair”
The chasam sofer writes that if we understand that the ones before us were like angels, then we’re bnei Adam. But if we think that the rishonim were people just like us, then were like donkeys
Why do you think that besides the Gaon, virtually no acharon argues with the rishonim? Why do you think rav akiva eiger asks bomb questions on the rishonim, questions that seem to completely demolish what they say, and end off by saying he’s not zocheh to understand their holy words?
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Shlomo, if your definition of a radical right shift is not mixed swimming….the steipler wrote that he was shocked to learn rhat thar there were people who consider themselves religious who do that, which is yehereg velo yaavor…an issur related to giluy arayos.
Chazal say a woman who bathes with men is to be divorced; asks the gemara, do you think she actually bathes with them?? Unthinkable! Rather she walks around in a bath robe showing men that she just bathed.
Square; you know any of the baalei mesorah in rishonim or achronim who said to speak lashon kodesh in our daily lives?
Chazal are referring to kodesh matters.
Ivrit is also not very holy. Do you think Hashem likes zonos speaking something similar to lashon kodesh in theit ‘profession’? Apikorsim who rail against Torah…in that language?
Yabia – the chazon ish paskened that we shouldn’t fight ivrit in eretz yisroel, because we already lost that war, and if we insist on it, we’ll lose sight of bigger problems. It would also alienate the sefardi immigrants who at the time, were not as educated as their ashkenazi brethren (now that is no longer the case)
lakewhut – your definition of a “good idea” including television makes me wonder if you’re here just to troll.
Would you want young people who dont have TV at home being able to go to a “kosher” place to watch it?
but…but…but what’s wrong with TV?
What’s NOT wrong with TV! The 3 chamuros, every kind of apikorsus and avodah zara, pritzus, and mind-numbing stupidity, all in one convenient package. What’s not to love?
The chevra who wants to chase after their taavos in a kosher way never ceases to amaze me.
The simple difference between refusing a hashgocha due to environment, culture, “hang out” status, a bar with TV, etc…and issues regarding paying workers, taxes, etc…is very simple to understand to the unbiased mind.
What someone does in their personal life is not the business of the mashgiach. The same way we don’t check in on him in his house to see if he keeps shabbos and taharas mishpacha – now if information of those things came to light, we wouldn’t be able to rely on the owner as a shomer shabbos person, but that’s a different story.
What the hashgochos are concerned with is…what are we making available to the tzibur? Are we opening the gates of immoral behavior and outside influence to people for whom Kashrus is the sole bulwark preventing them from going to sports bars, etc…?
That has zero to do with the ethics of the owner or how he runs his business.
YO, are you saying that speaking about passing the salt at a table is more important than being able to read seforim on your own, and write chidushei torah?
We find it’s a mitzvah to learn lashon kodesh, but we do not find a mitzvah to speak it. Aderabah, we find that jewish communities across the world never spoke hebrew, but rather judaicized non-Jewish languages. This phenomenon cannot be coincidental – ashkenazim, sefardim, yemenites, far-flung communities, and during the time of chazal, and even in our time…the way yeshiva people speak is not standard english.
Apparently that emes includes calling someone by the opposite gender, as children do in 3rd grade.
And apparently being intolerant of alphabet soup ideology creeping its way into the Torah world makes me non-masoretic.
YO, have you gone through yore deah to know that?
A hechsher gives the impression that the certifying agency is approving of what goes on in the establishment.
Put down your English bible and learn tanach with malbim
He’s just a mentally ill person who has lost his family due to his bad middos and untreated mental illness. I’ve listened to his interview: he has the mannerisms and speech of a person who has had a breakdown.
That doesn’t mean he’s not a bad person; many antisemites and terrorists are mentally ill.
5t – I’m not going to list the spiritual defects of klal yisroel, i don’t want to be mekatreg. But syag is right; we might be learning more in quantity than previous generations(though that too is not so simple.. My grandfather’s town in Lithuania had baalei batim learning 8 hours a day… And they were learning like yeshiva men) overall, but there are many deep seated problems that we have too.
The Internet and smartphone culture are the haskalah of European jewry…it needs to stop. We need to look at unfiltered internet access and social media the way we look at television. The haskalah was an existential threat to klal yisroel, and it caused the worst tragedy in our history; the amount of damage being wrought by unfiltered internet and social media is even moreso than haskalah.
In some ways, living under an autocracy has a maalah; in a democracy, we yidden need to be looked upon favorably by a majority of the electorate. Nazi Germany was a democracy too, we must remember; the people just turned on us and voted Hitler in.
In an autocracy, we need only gain the favor of one person, or a small group.
I’ll look it up later imyh
mentch, pouring into other peoples’ cups after drinking is not a shailoh because kiddush has been performed. You need the cos not to be pagum for it to be kosher for kiddush – the kiddush is done, and the people are drinking from a kol shel bracha after the fact. It is also not a chiyuv to drink from kiddush for those who are yotzei, but it is the minhag to do so and some say it might be a chiyuv at night, but me’ikar hadin it isn’t necessary.
re, drinking first then dispensing: chazal say that we’re not supposed to drink from a cup and then give it to someone else, as the machlah can be on the cup (chazal clearly understood about germs) but the exception to this is wine, because alcohol kills germs.
Nafka mina would be grape juice.
yadayim, yedei eisav, hakol, kol yaakov
now I i’z gonna show y’all how we do with ya’ll cracker fake jews
syag, once a person disregards the torah’s hashkofah about tznius, or any other issue, and opens themselves up to foreign influence and to see what goyim have to say, they will ultimately throw away halachos which don’t comport with their newfound ideologies and opinions.
This is why we need to step up in-house college programs, and make sure teachers are genuinely frum. It’s also why we need to take a stronger stance against social media, which is infiltrating our homes and burning them up from the inside.
peach – what if a child wore a skirt that covered her knees in the 3rd grade, but proceeded to wear it in the 4th grade? would the school not be justified in saying that it was too short because the student grew?
if a child grows in the middle of the year, is that a heter to let them dress untznius? why does that equal “shaming”? are the schools saying that gaining weight itself is bad, or are they saying that they need to dress in ways that adapt to their shape? is it more the girls themselves who are under the impression that gaining weight is bad, and the social pressure of being skinny…comes from they themselves (and of course their homes and society at large)?
as for not reacting to abuse – that was a valid claim 10 years ago. It’s not being swept under the rug anymore; the frum community wasn’t far behind the rest of the world’s movement towards exposing and punishing perpetrators. I agree that having a database is a good idea, in fact. I also think it’s a good idea to distance proven offenders (and a judge saying so isn’t enough) from children by any means necessary, and require such people to carry medicine on their person at all times which kills their taavah.
bringing out how men view womens’ clothing is important, because, like it or not (and im sure you dont like it) halacha mandates tznius, in part, because of lifnei iver. Women are punished, severely so, for causing men to sin with their eyes. Before you jump on “mind your business” – halacha doesn’t say that. It’s wrong, and it’s an example of megaleh panim batorah shelo kahalacha. The poskim are crystal clear that a woman is held accountable for men sinning if she dressed provocatively. Therefore, informing girls of this responsibility, and making them aware of how men see certain styles which to the girl herself might seem innocent, is a part of chinuch. It’s not objectification, it’s building awareness of how they are seen.
On the contrary, letting our girls dress in ways that make them seen as objects to men (i.e., your “open me” example) is objectification.
but but but…why dont you tell men not to look at it that way?
Why don’t you tell men not to enjoy steak, or women not to enjoy shopping? Hashem understands the natural desires of people and they’re not evil; quite the opposite, the desire for procreation keeps the world going and is integral to forming a marriage
When did I ever say I was a talmid chacham? I just relay what they say, for the most part.
I didn’t experience any trauma; I just saw the truth and accepted it
Aaq, have a halachik discussion with a dayan, like rav chaim kohn, and bring up an opinion of aharon Lichtenstein, hertzl henkin, and the consensus of the OU, and see what their reaction is. Watch their attention wander and ignore the name being mentioned. They’re not significant. They’re just not. So if this dayan quotes them, he’s either writing for a specific audience, in which case the grouping of rav Moshe with the TE is inconsequential, or he’s just not part of the Yeshiva world himself.
Yserb, when i used to sell Esrogim, i noticed something. When i spent entire days checking, discussing and selling them, when i closed my eyes at night the images of the Esrogim and the words of my discussions filled my head. Normally, when i put my head down, the words of the last tosfos i learned and the voice of my last chavrusa would be in my head, and it pained me that during those days, my mind was so taken by something else, even though it was a mitzvah.
Yserb, when you put your head down at night, what do you see in your mind, and what do you hear?
Yserb, these comments make me have a lot of kavanah when i say that Hashem is melamed Torah le’amo yisroel… When we act like Hashem’s people, we’re zocheh that He’ll teach us His Torah. Otherwise, people can study texts and books, and be very distant from Him, living in spiritual ruin while being able to rattle off pesukim and mishnayos. Min hasafeh el hachutz. No meaning, no internalization, no attempt at approaching the seforim as the revealed word of G-d.
I pity those who live in such darkness. On chanukah we remember those who lived the same way in Greece; they studied, and knew as much as the tzadikim in terms of volume, but they were misyavnim. They didn’t want to dedicate their hearts to Hashem. They wanted to think and do as they please, without listening to the chachamim.
It’s clear that whatever his intention was, it’s not representative of serious discussion among yeshiva world poskim, therefore the fact that he quotes the TE with rav moshe means just as much as him quoting aharon Lichtenstein with rav Moshe – absolutely nothing.
Even in that comparison, in your view, what relationship is thete between body shaming and tznius? Peach was just rambling
Yserb, those “places” are quite many, and maskilim took that story, which is far older (sefardim say it about suleikah, way before the haskalah) and made fun of it, the same way they made fun of the kohen meshuach milchama, where only the chofetz chaim and rav elchonon were left to fight – rav boruch ber in fact, said to the chofetz chaim that he would fight the Russian army with just him, but the chofetz chaim said that the time had already passed(horav hadomeh lemalaach)
The girl(s) in those stories would have died anyway from being dragged by the animals; she wouldn’t bleed to death from skin level abrasions; there were no arteries involved.
It is definitely a lofty level to worry about tznius in the face of death. It’s only funny to someone who is very distant from yiras shomayim.
Marx, neither of them were in office during BDS culture. Things are different now.
Also, obama was not the same as GHW Bush. Bush never refused to veto a biased UN resolution. He never unfreezes hundreds of millions of dollars for Palestinians who use it for terrorism, as his final act in office.
He also never gave a speech after a terror attack targeting a shul (this was back when har nof was attacked) that there is enough death “on both sides”
Bush was a centrist and had a balanced view of Israel; Obama didn’t, and it’s only gotten worse and more polarized in the past 10 years.
Aaq, go and talk to Lakewood rabbonim, and see if any care what Aharon Lichtenstein had to say. They don’t. It has nothing to do with who i approve of.
marx, being right or wrong on the issue isn’t top priority – for some reason, it seems that goyim are only able to have two positions on Israel. Either they defend it unconditionally, or they attack it mercilessly, and Jews as a whole together with it, often as part of antisemitic conspiracy theories, while ignoring palestinian crimes.
While it’s true that Israel mistreats palestinians, most of whom would kill any of us given the chance(maybe chicken and the egg, but I disgress), do we want a politician who defends what is considered a jewish country, and by extension, jewish people, or do we want someone who will spew antisemitic jew hatred about israelis being colonizers who commit genocide everyday?
It would be best if Israel would drop the jewish title and become a non sectarian country of its citizens; then you can criticize it all you want and it wont lead to jews being in danger; better yet would be for the US to take it over as a territory, but that’s not happening anytime soon.
Until that happens, the zionists have put us in a position where we’re in constant danger from rabid antisemites who use Israel as an excuse for jew hatred.
And if this rebbe, who may or not have been misled, says that he’s not touching the issue – why do you feel it’s ok to publicly say that these people have who to rely on?
Was this “someone” a cheder rebbe? someone who, just like you, read stuff online quoting the TE and assuming that he allows marriages?
Or did you ask “what do you think of someone relying on the TE to marry a man,” without telling him that the TE never addressed marriage?
Not trying to accuse, I just want to know who you asked(not a name, a title) and what exactly was asked.
Syag, what connection is there between body image and tznius “shaming” lessons? The two have virtually nothing to do with each other. Having busha, shame, in one’s exposure, is healthy, Jewish, and human. So is being comfortable in one’s body and not thinking that they need to be a certain weight or shape to be “good.” It sounds more like peach is just saying that “tznius bad” “body positivity good”
aaq, you’re missing my poiny and deflecting to the “but whats wrong with MO” track.
Let’s recap:
I said that in serious conversations about halacha, poskim do not include the TE together with Rav Moshe or other gedolei olam.
You found an article online from a yeshiva-world entity, which puts them together.
I answered that that particular article was at the very least not aimed at the yeshiva world, and was not a halachik treatise, but rather a blog post from someone who may or may not be representative of the yeshiva world in general.
You then went on the “whats wrong with…” issue – please stay on topic.
peach – if you admit that you’re not well versed in halacha, maybe keep your views on judaism, coming from a non-educated perspective, out of the discussion?
You’ve provided not a single point to counter which can be falsified, just suggestions that the yeshivos need to be more in line with in vogue non-jewish social trends, and that it’s 2022, and that we’re copying fundamentalist christians.
Not much to say except we follow the torah and mesorah, and not whatever goyim decide is better in 2022. Perhaps instead of accusing the people who know halacha of following christians, you should stop following social media and liberal ideas and learn the sources that come up when halacha-trained people discuss them?
To be clearer, i have no idea about r. Grossmans personal hashkofos or level of learning – could be he’s on those platforms to provide a daas torah that is missing (to say the least), and that he’s actually a talmid chacham and totally ehrlich – but his audience is not the yeshiva world, so that article may not be a fair representation of how he actually thinks.
If it’s to be taken on face value, it’s not an article representing the yeshivos, as it quotes the OU and aharon Lichtenstein, neither of which matter in the yeshiva world.
Aaq, found it – it’s not “the bais havaad” but rather a single author, rabbi yitzchak grossman. In the same article, he quotes the OUs position, and that of….aharon Lichtenstein. So we see which perspective he’s coming from.
R. Grossman’s writings appear in modern orthodox forums, like tradition, and “scholarly” maskilish places like the seforim blog and lehrhaus, where he wrote about protesting civil rights issues and quotes hertzl henkin’s twisted books – he also writes chidushim in BMG’s journals; he’s from an OOT community, and seems to have one foot in yeshivos and another in the MO world.
Any other examples?
I’m surprised no one’s seen the minhag of pouring a drop of water from the becher into the bottle of kiddush wine – I’ve seen it by about half of the families I used to eat by when I was dorming and having my meals outside.
Chaylev – 100% right
Yo…. we’ve already refuted that baseless statement.
Aaq, I can’t find that article
Peacho – the mental health community and the secular world at large is inching towards an ideology where gender is completely in the mind, and that transgender treatments (“gender affirming care”) is being labeled not to treat a disorder, but as a viable option for anyone who decides that they want to be a different gender.
Many people suffer from gender confusion, and no one is belittling that struggle, but what can be belittled – and should be – is how the disorder is being treated and the results thereof. Leitzanusa d’avodah zara, mocking idol worship, includes mockery of all things Hashem hates. And people who mutilate themselves and cause themselves to be sterile – a horrible, selfish affront to “lesheves yatzarta”(Hashem created the world to be inhabited) are reshoim, no matter what led them to that path.
Child molesters don’t wake up one morning and decide to abuse children, and they almost always don’t want it – they struggle, and if they fail, they are regarding (rightfully) as reshoim. Aside from a “it doesn’t hurt anyone” knee jerk reaction, what is really the difference? They’re both reshoim whose mental health struggles led them to do abominable acts.
1 – it’s a chumra of not drinking from a kos pagum.
Should be noted that the prohibition of sterilizing people applies to non jews as well.
Yserb, i think it depends on the doctor – like all professions, there are some who are quick to operate, or in this case medicate, and there are others who use it as a last resort.
It seems that doctors are very quick to prescribe puberty blockers and hormone therapy for gender confused young people – i realize I’m getting that info from right wing news sources, but i looked up the information that they’re basing it on, and it does seem to be standard practice, and is being pushed by many advocacy groups.
So a question if it’s allowed to overturn thousands of years of marriage norms isn’t an important question?
Ujm is right – we all know how repulsive this question is to any talmid chochom or ehrlich Jew.
Take your pick – ask rabbi shechter or rabbi willig if you want; there’s no chance anyone close to normal would allow it
YO, i have no idea how my reasoning is non-mesorah based. Can you elaborate?
Aaq, besides online forums, which poskim discuss rav moshe with the tzitz eliezer? My rebbe rav belsky was very close to rav moshe, and wouldn’t put almost anyone in the same sentence as him.
Before anyone reacts with a cynical “but you yeshiva people say that rabbis know science” – rabbinic authority on scientific information is limited to chazal, and some say rishonim. No one holds that we’re bound to the scientific statements of achronim when they’re visibly not true, , unless the issue is in interpretation of the metzius, whereas we’ll listen to an acharon’s interpretation of the metzius over a scientist.