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Yo – we should follow the Chasam sofer over anyone on here.
What makes you think I’m in Passaic of all places? And a basement? Maybe i live in my car for all you know.
Also, I wouldn’t call 20 years in the Yeshiva world “new.”
YO –
So we have the heiligeh chasam sofer, and we have an anonymous anti -religious troll online.
Which should we follow?
YO, I’m not fluent in modern fake Hebrew. When i go through a teshuva which uses an unfamiliar word…i look it up. No big deal.
Poskim who write in complete modern fake hebrew aren’t exactly required reading to find a halacha.
Aaq, the rambam holds that there won’t be constant nisim when moshiach comes. “Olam keminhago noheg.” He doesn’t get involved in who will do the work.
Most don’t go with that rambam anyways. They ask on him from the huge amount of medrashim that don’t fit with it at least on face value.
Either way, my point about it being far more important to learn how to learn is true even if Jewish men will have to work at the time, because the main occupation will be in learning
Takah, we aren’t going to have to work when moshiach comes – we’re all going to sit and learn. A better preparation would be for all the people who lack learning ability to learn how to learn and develop an enjoyment for it.
Our work will be done for us by the goyim who are zocheh to serve us, as stated openly in chazal.
menachem, that’s a machlokes in the gemara; if daagah should be yasichena, or yashichena, i.e. destroy it
either way becoming emotional doesn’t equal ka’as – if someone cries bitterly and vents their suffering, thats not calm and collected, but it’s not anger either.
even if someone’s angry, it should be stressed again that the OP is right about not bottling it up…it just builds and builds. To fight anger, and other middos, you need to bring in something positive against it; whether that’s meditation on maamarei chazal about anger, or reminding yourself constantly that everything is from Hashem, and good, so there’s no source of the anger to begin with.
Anger is essentially the frustration that comes from not getting what you’re expecting, whether that’s material loss or lack of gain, or the way people treat you. but if you knew for certain that these things were for the best, you wouldn’t be angry – if someone steals your parking spot, but you found out later that there was glass all around it, and it punctured the other driver’s tires, you’d feel relieved, not angry. So if Hashem decided that this parking spot is bad for you, for some reason, it should be enough of a reason not to be angry.
Shimon, the chofetz chaim wasn’t sure of that. He expressed it as a safek.
There were some, such as rav hutner, who said that it’s one of the husband’s obligations to a wife to listen to her pour her heart out if she was offended, etc..
Doesn’t mean it’s the right thing for her to do necessarily.
איזהו גיבור, הכובד את יצרו
You’re not supposed to bottle it up , you’re supposed to fight negativity with positivity, proactively. By drumming it into yourself that everything Hashem does is good, that nobody has the ability to harm or help you without it being so ordained from shomayim.
That’s how the Torah can give us a mitzvah of working on middos, and can prohibit some outright, such as jealousy.
The more you internalize Torah values, there won’t be anything to vent about.
That’s not prohibitig one from “existing,” it’s elevating a jew above bad middos, above the pulls of the yatzer hora.
The first step in fighting the YH is to acknowledge that when it tells you that a certain mitzvah isn’t “you” or that it would mean sacrificing who you are (i.e., when girls say that tznius “isn’t them”) – that it’s the yatzer hora, and not something internal, or an expression of your true self. Your true self is an eved Hashem, a pure and holy spark of godliness which wants to be as close to Hashem as possible.
And yes, the Torah is constantly, through many mitzvos, asking us to be above normal humanity. We can’t eat whatever we want, even though naturally we would. We naturally wouldn’t take a day every week to acknowledge Hashem’s control over our livelihood and the world itself. We wouldn’t refrain from wearing wool and linen.
The medrash asks why Hashem cares where a cut is made on an animal for it to be kosher, and answers that it’s “letzaref es habrios” to purify people, for our benefit, to elevate us above “normal” humanity into something special. Something malaachim are jealous of.
That being said, breaking middos is a lifelong job, and you must not get discouraged or feel overly guilty when you express a bad middah; it’s for this reason that most bad middos aren’t flat out assur, because we’re not always in control of them, and Hashem knows that – but we are in control of the actions that those middos lead to, such as saying lashon hora. But if not doing so makes you feel bottled up, it needs to be worked on with mussar heavily, as above, because it’s not mentally healthy to bottle things up
Yechi, if we’re looking at it as mussar, then yes, i agree that it’s not my derech, but it’s not necessarily bitul torah either – I don’t know of a mussar yeshiva that ever spent that long on it everyday…. even novardhok, which was considered “extreme” in the mussar world, did not spend 3 hours a day. Actually, in an interview with rav greinom lazevnik zt”l, he said that the weaker boys who couldn’t handle learnijg gemara all day woild spend more time on mussar than the others. Thay also had mussar rooms and would take off time from yeshiva to do things like going to grocery stores to ask for nails, to break their gaavah, or sleep in cemeteries…but that wasn’t bekevius, taking hours out of every day.
If that’s what chabad yeshivos did in europe, then fine, but i simply don’t know, and I don’t trust the historical accounts people say today, because there’s a lot of revisionism (not just in chabad, rhis happens in many circles…i know my own worlds history from roshei Yeshiva who lived it, and there’s plenty of untrue stories about rav aharon, etc..)
Sounds like we agree that learning kabalah outright shouldn’t occupy 3 hours a day.
Aaq, no idea; maybe it was a one time aveirah or it was not in public, but even if it’s in public and he did it routinely, he wasn’t an apikores or maskil
American, i agree to a large extent, but there are conditions to “hamaor shebah” – the ramchal writes that it needs to be serious learning, as serious as if this person would be learning secular studies. There also has to be a tiny desire to get better according to others, and it can’t be al menaa lekanter, which is what chazal call “sam hamaves”
Also, it’s not just the dress; these same people go to tish, give kevitalach, keep minhagim, and other chasidish things; shul is a big thing too – but i do agree that the litvak who learns hours a day is in a better spiritual predicament overall.
I wonder why most mir alumni send their kids there, with 3 generational families being the norm in mir, chaim berlin and torah vodaas; guess they all want their kids to be “abused” – sorry, i just don’t believe someone’s testimony in an online forum against the community itself which loves the institution
Three who go off in a class of around 30? That’s the current otd rate…
Damoshe, the berditchiver was melamed zchus on people with the din of yisroel. People who are not frum weren’t a thing back then, and you don’t find that he was melamed zchus on reform or maskilim.
Israelis don’t speak Hebrew because they feel close to Hashem. They speak it because that’s how they’re raised and that’s the language around them, just like American jews don’t speak English because we feel a solidarity with king George of England
In the 80s, most yeshivos had some rebbeim who gave petch; it sounds more like you just didn’t like the yeshiva, which was and is extremely successful in producing bnei torah
Anon, our mesorah is from achronim who say that our level of learning is different in our time. Reading mishnayos doesn’t constitute a mesorah. A mesorah is handed down. Who handed down to anyone today to follow the pashtus of that mishnah?
Rav yisroel salanter writes that everything went down one level; our mishnah is like their mikra, our gemara is like their mishnah, etc..
It’s not for nothing that all the yeshivos follow pretty much the same seder
American; i reread what i called hateful in your post and I should revise – i thought you were saying that “the chasidim” are not spiritual or medakdek etc….and rationalize it with the externals.
Some do, and it’s not hateful to point that out – my apologies.
There are some litvishe who rationalize not being careful about some things because they’re learning, so they’re definitely tzadikim; I’ve heard shmuzen about this from rav avrohom schorr, so I think it’s a universal problem with people rationalizing bad behavior by saying that they’re keeping whatever the “main thing” is in their eyes.
Haleivi, it seems the opinions of the baalei mussar are very popular on this forum; you’re entitled to follow that shitoh, which would hold that learning nistar for mussar counts as limud Hatorah. I was explaining things according to those.who argue.
Haleivi, where does the taz connect shaar chochmos to what you’re referencing (it’s the rashbas ban on young people studying secular studies)? He just says that it’s assur to learn bekevius shaar chochmos and lists kabalah among them. He’s indicating that there’s a reading of kabalah which is not limud hatorah, which i think means if you’re reading kabalah seforim without being muchshar as a mekubal. If it’s for mussar then it’s a different story, as noted.
Where’s the trickery? I think you’re putting more into the taz, i.e. that he’s referring to the rashba without mentioning age or him at all. All I’m doing is saying that since kabalah is Torah, there must be some sort of way of reading it which would merit it being listed with science and math.
American; I don’t see anything hateful about discussing modern day wackiness in chabad.
I think it’s hateful to disparage chasidim or any other group in klal yisroel which is following a mesorah. The last rebbe changed chabads mssorah drastically, and was criticized, even discounted ny many gedolim; that isn’t the case for other chasidim 50 years past the original hisnagdus. Everyone else pretty much made peace at that point.
Nom – if you have an issue with something i said, then I’ll be happy to answer you, but stam saying that I’m arrogant and ignorant only makes me sound more correct.
Not believing in modern orthodoxy, chabad, and religious zionism, means that I don’t respect 95% of yidden? Are you, in fact, a lubavitcher who believes that klal yisroel consists of Chabad and a few snags?
Aaq, chazal say that sholom is bad for reshoim, it lets them sin more. I don’t see how you can call it an independently important calue.
Yechi, i differentiate between the two because if we look at learning nistar as we look at gemara, then almost no one is yotzei learning it, because it’s way above the hasagos of non-mekubualim. For everyone else, it’s as the taz lists it together with science and math, as chochmos.
If it’s learned as a tool for avodas Hashem, which was the hisnatzlus of many early chasidishe seforim(since it was forbidden to learn kabalah under 40, etc..), then it’s no different than sifrei mussar.
He discussed regents, that’s only in the US.
Mir in Israel includes the larger mir, for Americans, and Mir brachfeld, for israelis. Americans speak english, and the Israelis speak hebrew.
Rav Osher arieli gives shiur in yiddish, and I’ve heard him. I don’t know about the other shiurim. In mir brachfeld, the shiurim are in ivrit.
Many companies require staff to use pronouns in the sign off of their communications. It could be that these professionals are worried that if they don’t follow along, they won’t be hired.
I don’t think there’s an issur, because you’re not advocating for the pronoun culture and gender nonsense.
5t, the only part about your post which is true is that mir doesn’t acknowledge yom ha’atzmaut, same as any other non-european Hebrew nationalist yeshiva. plenty of the talmidim, especially in the last few years, speak Hebrew, because they’re sefardi and their families came from Israel.
Most rebbein in most yeshivos teach tha5 ivrit is no good. Most offer hebrew as a regents test; I’m pretty sure mir does too.
The shiurim are all in English. I have no idea where you got the jdea that they expect you to speak Yiddish. Mir, like every other Brooklyn Yeshiva, translates chumash and mishnayos into Yiddish, but it’s downplayed as time goes on.
I spent some time there. Your post sounds like something out of the NYT.
I spent time in the mir as well
Nom, how is saying that klal yisroel besides lubavitch shows respect for one another mean that I’m excluding myself?
nom – whether learning mussar is a kiyum of talmud torah or not is an old machlokes. I can find the sources if you’d like, but many hold that if you’re not working on understanding the maamarei chazal that are mentioned, and are learning the words to fix your middos, then you’re mekayam es Hashem elokecha tirah, i.e. yiras shomayim, and ve’halachta be’drachav if you’re learning about middos bein odom lechavero.
Some, however, especially many baalei mussar, held that you’re mekayam talmud torah, because you’re learning “halachos” of yiras shomayim and bein odom lechavero.
For torah she’baal peh, understanding is necessary to be mekayam the mitzvah, according to the gaoin and many others. For mikroh, this isn’t the case.
kabalah, which is definitely torah she baal peh, if learned on the level of understanding that one has for other parts thereof, i.e. gemara, mishnah…one is definitely mekayam talmud torah with it.
But chasidus says that it’s not kabalah study, rather it’s using kabalah for mussar, giving sifrei chasidus the same status as sifrei mussar, which as noted, is a machlokes if one is mekayam talmud torah when learned.
And if someone thinks that they’re studying the zohars and kisvei ari that are quoted in sifrei chasidus on a level of mekubalim….he’s just as delusional as a messianic man who doesn’t sleep in a sukkah because he imagines feelings of discomfort over not being uncomfortable, and who thinks that a deceased rebbe hears his thoughts and grants his wishes..
oh, wait..
No – clearly you’ve only been around baalebatish chasidishe people, who are no more knowledgeable in halacha than their litvishe counterparts, both of whom know and keep far more than right wing MO, with the exception of those who learned under rabbi shechter and stayed in kollel elyon – they do keep halacha to that extent, and even moreso sometimes.
But chasidishe and litvishe kollelleit are very into chumros. Take a look at one of them, and you’ll see.
Yechi, saying that the rebbe instructed them to do so only is a justification if you accept the authority or legitimacy of the rebbe. I accept neither. To me, he made a mistake in telling people to go into other communities which were doing fine on their own and try to convert them into chabad chasidim. It’s arrogant, chutzpah, and is breaching a boundary of mutual respect that the rest of klal yisroel has for one another.
Even groups that do not get along – we don’t see MO people going into yeshivos, or yeshivish people going into MO shuls to spread their ideas.
Since chasidus is, yechi agrees, toras hanistar manifested in avodas Hashem, many would hold that you’re not mekayam talmud torah with it, the same as by mussar. This would apply heavily to the last half of the tanya, known as the “polisher perakim” because gerrer and others avoided the conceptual first half, and focused on the latter, which was more avodah centered.
If that’s so, it shouldn’t be something you spend 3 hours on everyday. If you hold that it’s a limud of torahs hanistar leshem limud, then it’s a different story, because then it would have the halachik equivalent of learning kabalah – which only counts as talmud torah if you’re holding by really being masig what it is. Something almost no one today can do; you need a high level of kedushah, a rebbe muvhak, and you need to “see” things in it, like the zohar famously changes from the gemara’s “tah shma” to “tah chazi”
Chasidim often said that they’re not learning kabalah in the sense of kisvei ari and limud lishem limud, to avoid this issue; they said they’re learning it because our generations need the fire of nistar to wake us up for avodas Hashem, and I couldn’t agree more – but that makes it a form of mussar, and not talmud torah.
Haleivi, to be fair, it depends on the yeshiva and the degree of wackiness therein. Some places definitely follow the seder yechi mentions, but more radical ones will spend more time on chasidus
reb e, that’s correct that there’s a strong tzad not to be concerned with what people do as a result of our keeping halacha – we do what we are obligated to do, and if people go off, it’s not our responsibility – because we’re only doing what’s obligatory on us.
that has nothing to do with making a sacrifice of letting people fall away because we want to bring out the best in others (the example of not teaching chasidim to be jewish in their dress, etc..)
also, I don’t think we can play games with making policies which protect people from going off, with the idea that they might come back; every minute, every sin done by a jew is a horrific event – if we can prevent it, we must. or at least we must not remove things which keep people from doing horrible aveiros, even if they might come back in the future; the sum total isn’t where one ends up – every mitzvah and every sin have a cheshbon, and we have responsibility to other jews to protect them from harm.
chazal did away with shofar and 4 minim, mitzvos which save the world, because maybe, one jew might be mechalel shabbos. they didn’t say, “well, it’s just one chilul shabbos, and im sure he’ll keep next week better”
american; if you go to a chasidishe chasuna, you will know right away who the choshuve people are; it may not be as clear as it is in the litvishe world (i.e., kapotes) but you can tell if you’re paying attention.
Emphasizing dress to the extent that chasidim today do is a complicated, delicate subject. I don’t pretend to be an expert, but they are basing themselves on a mesorah. What to do when someone is not receptive to that mesorah….is something that they need to fix in-house. they don’t need me telling them what to do.
lost – why beat a dead horse?
Making a bracha on something without a shred of a source? why not!
Yechi, I do not think that chasidus is a sea of kabalistic ideas that confuse people. I said that a bochur learning too much chasidishe seforim – or too many intense mussar seforim like kav hayashar for that matter – can and does obfuscate basic yiddishkeit. No other group of chasidim has their bochurim (and their aleph-bais-ignorant baalei teshuvah) learn chasidus anywhere near as much as neo-chabad. In most chasidusen, they learn from shiurim, and maybe once or twice a week they’ll learn sefas emes, but most don’t learn Tanya (especially the first half) until they’re older.
Because it can be confusing. And do you want proof? Has there ever been a movement in modern day Judaism which struggled with defining the divinity of a man and his supposed status as the essence of god wrapped in a body, which permits people to pray at his grave, as the last lubavicther rebbe said? Do you know of any other group which struggles with a question of why they do mitzvos; is it because the rebbe said so or is it because G-d said to? And do you know any other group of chasidim who believe that their rebbe can hear their thoughts from the olam ha’emes, that you should pray to him, that he will answer you, that he (not his zchusim) protects you?
I haven’t.
Any limud besides gemara, shas and poskim, is secondary, and should be kept for mussar seder. I spent 30 minutes a day on chasidishe seforim. The rest of the time I learned gemara. there’s a limit to how much you can skew gemara. There’s no limit to how much apikorsus you can make from kablalah, chas veshalom.
Yechi, no, I do not agree that yat”k was ever a major day for chasidim until the last rebbe made it so. I don’t think it was any bigger than 21 kislev is for Satmar.
As for the 250 seforim chabad rebbes have; no one learns them all. It would be virtually impossible. Most bochurim learn likutei sichos, tanya, igros, likutei torah, and not much else – which is still a tremendous amount of learning, more than enough to confuse young people into not understanding basic yiddishkeit amid a sea of kabalistic concepts – pardon my snarkiness.
There were no indicators that the missionaries were aware of that there were bochurim in my yeshiva, or the other yeshivos that they visit, who are interested in chabad. None. They go everywhere on yat”k, simchas torah, and other times, to spread chasidus to everyone and anyone.
Most yeshivos throw them out or threaten to call the police, especially when alcohol is being offered to minors. My yeshiva is kinder, but no one was interested. they just wanted to eat their supper in peace. This has been going on for decades.
Do you agree that chabad is not necessary learning to be a good Jew? Do you think litvishe bochurim, with or without n”h, can be ovdei Hashem and bnei olam haba if they spend their lives in shas and poskim, and don’t ever think that they’re ready for kabalah(as is the case with many roshei yeshiva)?
And do you think a chabad chossid, or any chossid, is inherently superior to a litvak, because they are aware of chasidishe torah?
This is coming from someone who has spent years learning chasidishe seforim, alongside ramchal, gaon, n”h, shl”a, etc..
Yechi – I’ll phrase the metaphor differently. How would you feel about a litvishe bochur coming into 770 and saying that unless you learn rav boruch ber, you have no idea what learning gemara is?
American, that’s really, really hateful; chasidim do a better job than other groups at retaining stragglers. Those same people who are not very enthusiastic about yiddishkeit would probably be off the derech in other communities.
Chasidishe communities learned from litvishe how to prioritize learning, establish kolellim, etc…and we learned from chasidim how to approach modernity, how to survive amid a spiritually caustic culture… our tznius standards also greatly improved with the influence of chasidim.
Chasidishe yungeleit who are into learning are VERY medakdek in halacha…check out a chasidishe kolel, the myriad sifrei halacha put out by chasidim, and you’ll see it.
Every community has its drop outs, its outliers, its mainstream and its cream of the crop. Focusing on the bottom tiers is just biased.
Lakewhut, it’s not true that chasidim influenced the world to abandon non-glatt. That was a decision made by American gedolim, rosh verishon rav Moshe, who was, last i checked, not chasidishe.
It is correct, though, that “chasidishe shechitah,” along with non-gebrukts products and other chasidishe minhagim have become pretty standard. It’s important to remember, however, that there’s a reason most Brooklyn shuls are nusach sfard – I don’t think it’s inaccurate to say that most frum ashkenazi jews in the NYC area oday have some chasidishe roots.
Re, chasidus/nefesh hachaim – one can say that the nefesh hachaim teaches chasidus, insofar as chasidus is defined as toras hanistar taught as a part of avodas Hashem.
It doesn’t matter if it’s “fine with you” what ehrliche bochurim choose to learn or not learn. Not everyone has to learn chasidus to be good Jews.
Also, the contradiction was that first you claim that yat”k was always celebrated, then you say (like i said) that the last rebbe inflated it.
Yechi, i know they don’t learn it, and I’m fine with that – that’s hagufah the point. I’m fine with other groups not learning my groups seforim, and i expect the same from them. No one should think that their way is superior and the only real yiddishkeit, as long as the other group has a mesorah
Chabad doesn’t grant the right for other groups to serve Hashem their way.
Marx, during the churban we had a government; didn’t help. Saying the Holocaust wouldn’t have happened if we did XYZ different is denial of Hashem.
Also, guess who lobbied the USA not to let in Holocaust refugees, and to insist that all go to eretz yisroel? Zionists!
Guess who collaborated with Nazis to get their own saved and let the old frum yidden die! Zionists!
But yeah, the Holocaust proved them “right”
Cheylev; who said there’s even a chiyuv m’dina to say tachanun?
Also, reb e, there’s a better reason to justify davening late. Rav Meir Shapiro said that a rebbe is toraso umnaso, and is hence patur from davening in general; he can daven a tefilas nedava whenever he wants.
Rav belsky said this over once on a shabbos; i asked him, how would this work for the chasidim, who are not toraso umnaso? He said with a smile that they’re farbunden with the Rebbe. He was litvish, but had a deep respect for chasidishe minhagim, with some exceptions.
Marx, it nearly did. Rommel was a couple of days away from EY.
I’m referring to the day to day. The violence was more frequent than the norm in Europe