AviraDeArah

Yankel, the “who started it” is just as childish as when kids get into a fight. Both sides can point to an earlier point where there were attacks or aggression; it’s not clear at all who started it, but the zionists had a bloodlust, personified by their leaders writing “רק בדם תהיה לנו הארץ”

You’re right that the arabs expelled the sefardim, which is often ignored by leftists – no one’s saying the arabs were “right.” My point was that it’s a myth that the zionists merely bought up all of or most of the land – it wasn’t even close.

We’ll get what’s owed to us in the geulah shlaima, including the heavy losses of the sefardims money, and the revenge of the 6 million kedoshin in Europe. Hashem will avenge all of it.

From an objective point of view, I don’t care that they kicked out Arabs; same way the arabs kicked out the ottomans, who kicked out the Byzantines, then the romans, then the jews – we know the story.

Sharing the burden of the Torah community is a Jewish value. Sharing an imposed burden by enemies of Torah who want you to not keep the Torah is not a Jewish value

Of note is that before zionism, Jews were able to go to the kosel freely. The Arabs stopped it because they had this paranoia about al aqsa mosque which to this day makes them go rabid whenever a Jew goes near it. This is by design – there’s a serious issur in going on har habayis.

So when zionists use the kosel as a trophy of victory and pride, it’s really just undoing the damage they inflicted.

I heard from a talmid that Rav Hutner didn’t visit the kosel because he agreed with the satmar rov on it being a problem of not being mechazek the reshoim.

I’ve been busy the past few days – just wanted to note that nowhere does the Satmar Rav say that the soton has any independent power, chas veshalom. He brings many examples of maysoh soton, such as the image of Moshe dying on har sinai, which is in medrash rabbah, as times when the soton was tasked with making signs to test klal yisroel.

The state is no different; its success, the satmar rov says, is a test for our emunah – will we use it as a proof that something against the Torah (a secular state calling itself Jewish with apikorsus definitions of a jew, non Torah law being practiced, pride parades, mixed army, etc…) is good and that we should celebrate it, and think that it represents us as Jews, or will we see that such things are a test….בפרוח רשעים כמו עשו, when the wicked prosper…. that’s already in pesukim.

Others say that the state’s success was because of the frum people there. The chazon ish said after the Holocaust there was a tremendous ais ratzon, and if the yidden wanted moshiach, he would have come… instead they wanted the state, so they got it in ways that require siyata dishmaya. But that doesn’t make it a good thing.

Tha main difference between satmar and the majority was how distant we ought to be from the government; can we ignore our obligation to defend not only our rights but influence people, especially sefardim, who we might lose to the zionists if we don’t join the government? Satmar says what can we do? We are anusim mipnei hadin. Agudah says the din is that we can, and that such a thing isn’t hischabrus.

No malaach, weak or strong, does anything besides what Hashem tells is to do; that’s its nature.

Mdd – the kings of malchus beis dovid were all from the command of Hashem that kings should come from him. In malchus yisroel, yeravam was made king by a navi, but only some wrested power through takeovers; they all had the din of a melech nevertheless.

Where did you get that all food was under the “hashgocha” of ovadia?

Smerel, it’s the simple chain of events. They only assembled an army after haman was defeated and mordechai was made viceroy. It was clear that the gezerah was batul and the king expressly told them to be omed al nafsham. In such a case, when we have Hashems favor we are assured victory, and not one Jew died.

Aaq, gedolim have cheshbonos for things – we know from people who were there at the time how the chofetz chaim felt about rabbi kook, going so far as to nock his name upon hearing that the latter had praised the mechalelei Shabbos soccer players.

It could be the chofetz chaim did address zionists at some point in writing; I’m not familiar.

Smerel – that was AFTER the gezerah min hashomayim was batul and they were given permission to fight. If such a thing had happened during the Holocaust – great, but it didn’t.

Yankel, on an individual basis, there’s nothing wrong with fighting, but as you can see clearly from the megillah, organizing an army for defense was NOT the method the Jews took nor would it have worked. Lobbying the US to bomb the tracks to Auschwitz was perfectly within the parameters of hishtadlus, and was done by gedolim who were anti zionist too.

Anon, i told you where the nevuah is. It’s an open pasuk; when i said “had” i meant he was in possession of the nevuah given by yirmiyahu decades before.

Not everyone listened; that was a mistake. However the same Hashem who told us to go back told us not to go back again en masse until moshiach comes.

Your preference for a false leader over a king anointed by a navi, evil as they may have been, means nothing to me.

Elisha ate meat from the table of Izevel, who was steeped in idolatry. This is because the aseres hashvatim kept every other mitzva meticulously; their meat was kosher lemahadrin, fit for a navi Hashem to eat.

Meanwhile Netanyahu eats treif and makes goyim think it’s not so important, if “your leader” isn’t careful…this was a taynoh of European countries that outlawed shechitah.

It is artzeinu, but that doesn’t mean “moledet” as described in zionist literature. We have lots of things; our mesorah, our beis hamikdash, our torah, our history – the land is meant to be ours as long as we deserve it and use it for its states purpose. But it is not a national homeland, because such a concept is non existent. we were born in midbar sinai, as chumash says openly, created as a nation by virtue of the Torah alone.

Eretz yisroel is of paramount importance in its opportunity to do mitzvos which only apply there.

I’m not taking away from that – I’m saying the term moledet was a nationalist import from non jewish sources, by people enamored by the European nationalism of the time…it was the , during the shift from kingdom and vassal state to nationalism that zionism was developed – as a direct result, copying and pasting it on to Judaism.

There is also no concept of a “homeland” in the Torah. That is zionist brainwashing; a nation needs a homeland, so zionists chose eretz yisroel. A nation needs a language, and that became farshmutzed Hebrew, it needs a history, and that became a twisted version of the Maccabees and kings.

All of that is nationalist nonsense.

We are a nation because of the Torah alone, rav saadya gaon famously writes. We don’t have a homeland. The Torah is our homeland. Hashem wrote in the Torah that “today you are a people for me” in the desert by matan Torah – we became a nation at matan Torah, not before or after. Eretz yisroel is a valuable tool, one of the most valuable! But it is not our homeland because such a concept doesn’t exist outside of the minds of secular historians and nationalistic heretics.

I love how lazer brody became a posek on hilchos oneg shabbos… it’s a mitzvah to eat what makes you happy on shabbos. Telling someone not to eat those foods, kol minei mataamim, at least in small portions, is telling them to curtail the performance of a mitzvah and an obligation.

Yankel, re ponevezher rov – i asked about this to one of my rebbeim, who’s a brisker and very antizionist. He confirmed that the rov did in fact not say tachanun, but explained it as i wrote above, rhat it was due to feeling hakaras hatov for the hatzalah after the war, not due to any nationalism or identification with zionism.

Anon, satmar, Hungarian chasidim, yerushalmis and briskers don’t take a dime from the israeli government. You’re welcome to become one of them.

Those who allow it say that they’re recouping taxes taken illegally by the state, since it’s not a legitimate country, it has no right to take our taxes. Getting govt funding is just taking back our own money – this is how many in the Agudah explain the heter.

Sechel, what dovid did was not an aveirah, but even so, he did teahuva for what it looked like. Also, this wasn’t a slip up on the baaleo lashon hora – this was something they were actively engaging in consistently.

Dovid’s rebuke has nothing to do with the practical, down to earth difference between a man who violates aishes ish and a person who makes an offensive joke in public. He was driving home the severity of what they were doing – because it’s very serious. But the path of teshuva for one who does such “frum” sins is much easier and quicker than a person who is steeped in tumah, such as arayos or shfichas damim. On a certain level, lashon hora/etc.. are worse – but only in some ways. That’s what the baalei musar write on such statements of chazal, that they’re bringing out a certain bechina, nekudah that needs to be stressed, but are not speaking about the practical differences. For example, there’s an element of avodah zara in every sin, but not every sin is literal, pashut avodah zara. There’s an element of AZ specifically in anger, eating chometz on pesach, and others, but they’re not literally AZ.

Yes chazal say that a person who lends on ribis has no techias hamaysim; what’s your point? That we should think there’s no logic in Torah? Of course there is! It’s on us to understand why a person who does that forfeits their eternity – do you think Hashem takes away olam haba, the purpose for which He made a person, easily and in a way that we’re not privy to? How are we supposed to avoid losing our olam haba if we’re not given the tools necessary to do so?

Hashem wants us to understand it as much as we possibly can. It’s not catholic dogma which is just recited by robots. At a certain point, we say we can’t understand some details, and we just say it’s a gezeras hakasuv, etc…were not talking about maskilim here who need to understand something rationally to acccept it. I’m saying there most definitely is a logic in Torah, just at a certain point it’s beyond our comprehension.

Da, it’s not my theory, the brisker rov famously said it when rommel was repelled after the yidden in yerushalayim acted like they did during purim, instead of the freikeit that was in Europe and the zionist responses, like chaim weitzman declaring “war” on hitler in the name of jewry

“Machlokes” between a guy who spent a few years in mirrer yeshiva and then became an activist and got himself shot by the Arabs he started up with, against a gadol byisroel who was so holy that he didn’t even taste food and spent his entire life immersed in Torah and avodah, building a Torah community after the Holocaust.

You know who else reads pesukim to justify their violations of mesorah? Literally every divergent group in klal yisroel; tzedukim, karaiim, early conservative (before they dropped that too), maskilim…

We have a mesorah

edited

You also can’t fool people into thinking that the sun is standing still.. The whole premise is off

Halevi, where do you see Rashi deviating from the pashut teitch of the machlokes?

Rebbe yossi says even if the navi makes the sun stand still in the sky, don’t listen to him to do avodah zara.

rebbe akiva says “chas veshalom that Hakadosh baruch hu would make the sun stop for ovrei retzono”

If we’re talking only about how it looks to a viewer, why would rebbe Akiva reject that Hashem would do it – according to you, even rebbe yossi never said He would.

As for your diyuk in the lashon of the braysoh, the fact that the “Torah” gave AZ power is no different than the “Torah” “giving” permission for things; the same way the beginning of the maamar is that the Torah understood the depths of how AZ works… it’s Hashem who made the Torah eithe way.

Look at Rashi on the pasuk; he comes laafukei your diyuk between Hashem/Torah on the word memshalah. Rashi on the pasuk writes that the miracle will happen either in the sky אות), or the land (מופת) and that אעפ”כ, לא תשמע לו, וא”ת מפני מה
נותן לו הקב”ה ממשלה לעשות אות, כי מנסה ה….

The rambaN on the pasuk is somewhat mashma that the miracles done by a false navi have a limit. We already saw nissim that was huge by yetzias mirzrayim and we heard directly from Hashem not to worship other gods, so we shouldn’t look at the false navis osos umofsim.

But Rashi clears up any confusion about the existence of such miracles.

On to the “chas veshalom” thing – it’s not my main argument. And i agree partially with your example of rebbe shimon; i also think that the nisyonos of bias hamoshiach are unique, as stated by the above.

And i didn’t read the gemara backwards – rebbe yochanan is quoted first, but that doesn’t mean that the maskanah is not like him. He is an amora and halacha k’basra, we follow amoraim because they knew what the tannaim said and still said their statements. I’m sorry if i presented it as if the gemara sequentially went with rebbe yochanan – you’re correct that it did not, but that would only he significant if we’re talking about shitos of other amoraim, where sequence shows us the maskanah.

Menachem, a cohesive homogenous community has yeshivos, shuls, and a functioning beis din. We’re not talking about boro park whch6has dozens of kehilos. In CH, it’s all chabad.

When that infrastructure crumbles, it’s a sign of deterioration from the top down.

Sechel – i said “you know it” because i guarantee you’d treat someone differently if they told you that they just murdered someone than if the person admitted to stumbling in lashon hora.

And if you wouldn’t….they have medication for that.

Da, we should thank Hashem that the yidden who were put in danger by the zionists 75 years ago remained safe during the 67 war, and are still safe with the added, new dangers.

On Purim, we were threatened with annihilation. Did we make a SJDF(Shushan Jewish Defense Force)?

No. We davened, and did teshuva, and rhe gezerah was batul. That’s the lesson of Purim, to recognize the source of our tzaros.

My point is that the IDF isn’t “gods army” and he doesn’t approve of their sinfulness. How do i know that? Because He told us so. If Hashem sees an ervas davar, He turns away from us – it’s a beferushe pasuk.

And yes, if an expert on military issues predicts a country will win in a week and they do, that means it’s not really a neis. Of course Hashem wanted them to win and made them win, and it’s best that they did because if they didn’t, there would have been another Holocaust cv”s. What’s your point?

In the lashon chazal, men are called tzadikim and women are called tznuos – it is THE ikar for a woman.

There is a common theme among the big three deviations in the Jewish world (zionism, neo chabad and modern orthodoxy/haskala/”rationalism”)

When you start analyzing the gemaras and other sources that they throw around, they never have equally thought out and thorough answers. It’s always ad hominem or superficial readings.

I went through the gemara the way we are taught to do in yeshivos. You quoted one shitah which the halacha doesn’t follow out of context. And your answer is to pick on the weakest part of my argument – that’s agenda driven

Rebbe Akiva is a complicated sugya – here’s the context, which you completely omitted.

There’s a machlokes between rebbe yossi haglili and rebbe Akiva if the pasuk i mentioned is to be understood the way i said it(that a navi sheker will do miracles) or if we’re talking about a navi who did miracles when he was a real navi and then became a false navi, and told people to rely on his miracles as proof of his validity. This will be a nisayon.

Rebbe Akiva holds that while it will obviously be a nisayon(actually, a bigger one, because he was muchzak as a navi emes) chas veshalom that a rasha should do miracles.

Rebbe yochanan, howeve, paskens like rebbe yossi, and halacha follows amoraim, not tannaim.

So the maskana of that gemara is that a false navi will do nissim.

However even according to rebbe Akiva, there is a big difference. He doesn’t deny that the soton has and will do miracles to test us – his issue is that a miracle can’t be done for those who violate His will, in his exact lashon. The soton not only doesn’t violate His will – he’s doing Hashems will by testing us! There were no specific neviim during Israel’s wars.

Now if you’re going to say that this is a “proof” that Hashem approved of their actions….oh boy. You need to learn some history. Hitler was miraculously saved numerous times from assassins. Does that mean he was doing ratzon Hashem?

And don’t you think the secular army and soldiers were ovrei ratzon Hashem in literally every other way? What difference would the shvuos make? They probably never even heard of them, but you decided that “aha! Hashem wouldn’t have done a neis if they were sinners in the shvuos!”….but mechalelei shabbos He would do a neis for? You need to say like the brisker rov, that the yeshuos are done because there are good yidden living there, but they are in no way a stamp pf approval from Hashem

So cautious chazal were with claiming “God is on our side” that EVEN Chanukah, miraculous win that it was, was only decided the next year to be made into a yom tov, because, as the maharal writes, sometimes the underdog wins an upset victory…. it’s not always indicative of anything miraculous. Only when they felt the kedushah come back the next year, together with the neis of the pach shemen, did they fully accept that a neis had happened and made a yom tov.

Smerel, my mistake, lorencz was talking about the war of independence. The US gave Israel a 50/50 shot at winning at the time. It wasn’t as clear cut as the 6 day war.

Re, ponevezher rov – if he said it was a neis, then why would the state department say that Israel would do it in 6 days? The satmar rov said “if the 6 day war was a neis, Johnson was a navi”

We’re talking about a question of metzius, not necessarily daas Torah; the ponevezher rov was lightyears ahead of my pay grade, but i believe the evidence to be incontrovertible….just like how there were mistaken views on how electricity worked in the later achronim.

The brisker rov said there were yeshuos and that they were done for the frumer yidden, and that we need to thank Hashem for it. That doesn’t mean that when zionists point to miracles, real or otherwise, that it shows that “god is on our side,” because He isn’t on the side of rotzchim poshim apikorsim(like the song goes)

The existence of Israel isn’t a constant miracle or a lasting one. It’s bederech hateva that a country which drafts its citizens and has a yiddishe kop economy will prosper in a place where illiterate village dwellers failed, aside from what chazal say about eretz yisroel working when yidden farm there.