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Marx, most mo rabbis don’t tell people to do most of the aveiros that they do. Also, more importantly, the eruv supporters aren’t telling them that you can carry on shabbos, rather they’re saying there’s an eruv, an established halachik device. When some mo rabbis say that girls should be taught gemara, or that filters aren’t necessary, or that negiah isn’t a big deal, they’re telling their constituents something that is availably disprovable. I agree that the level of culpability is reduced when they’re following a rabbi, but at what point do we say that they’re expected to reject them? It’s a good question which i don’t have an answer to, but it probably boils down to a case by case, personal cheshbon.
With the eruv, there were rabbonim who learned the sugya differently than rav moshe, while the circumstances of the eruv were quite… Political, but that’s besides the point
If someone is a product of day school, can barely read let alone translate a sefer, and their rabbis led them to believe XYZ halacha simply doesn’t exist, are they like a tinok shenishba in those matters? Or maybe not, because they do know that there are “fanatics” who keep much more than they do, and they’re not like conservative who are taught openly that halacha changed, rather their belief system is that halacha must be kept… So are they held accountable in shomayim for not investigating themselves? Again i think it’s personal.
Dofi, that was marx’s cute comment, not mine. The eruv also isn’t an issue where i am, so it’s a moot point for my class.
Lernt, very cute
Marx, rav belsky often said that they’re anusim and are not considered mechalelei shabbos on any level. They’re following their rov, which makes them blameless. As far as they know, in their due diligence, they’re totally shomrei shabbos.
I also disagree sharply that plastics are not caring about other people, because the idea is circular – you’re starting with the idea that we can harm the world with things other than aveiros, i.e..plastics, then proceed to say that it’s spiritual because it’s hurting others….which is only true if you accept first that it is actually hurting others. And to do that you need the global, theoretical investigation level which we don’t have a source for.
I know of no gadol who limits their use of plastics. Do you? Are all of the gedolei yisroel guilty of not caring about others by using plastics? Sorry, but I don’t see anything convincing here.
As for localized pollutants – see above, it’s a good point.
Lernt, no one dismissed the medrash – as i said above, it means just what you said, that we can destroy the world spiritually, with outlr aveiros, not our SUVs. That’s exactly what the mesilas yeshorim says on that medrash, that when we go after olam hazeh, we are mekalkel it, and when we go after mitzvos, we elevate it. “It is a great elevation for the creations when they serve the uses of the adam hashalem…” In perek 1.
Also as i said above, i have no issue with the idea (though I disagree, based on rav millet) that climate change is a real gezerah, and that our response should be to do teshuva and daven, like we would for any other gezerah. If there were/are other gedolim who think it’s a real gezerah… they’re entitled to. But no rabbonim from the mainstream world, as far as i know, have said to engage in compost, increase recycling, switch to Teslas, or anything else.
Aaq, i was very clear earlier to distinguish between visible cause and effect issues, which while min hashomayim are no different than deciding to pour garbage on people from a window, and global level theoretical ideas which even if proven, are outside our purview. We have no mitzvah to investigate them, and if we’re made aware of them, we should say it’s up to Hashem. Why don’t we say it’s up to Hashem in other dangers? Because elsewhere we have a pasuk. Verapo yirapeh, veasafta deganecha, maakah, etc… If this were an issue we’d have a source for it somewhere.
Yserb – good to know you think the pursuit of olam haba is more important, at least in theory. Was that so hard?
Gadol, i didn’t know they had sushi in Hungary…
Aaq, some of what you said warrants a response, but you’re also making a tremendous amount of assumptions.
When i said 1% is negative, that doesn’t translate to 1% charedi vs MO ideology. It means that i only talk about onshim, gehinnom, consequences of sin, 1% of the time. Most of the time is positivity.
And do you think i sit there and talk about hashkofa all day? I have a curriculum. And it’s mishnayos, gemara, chumash, halacha, mesilas yeshorim, and navi. That’s what class is about. I have no idea how accomplishing a curriculum could be stealing larents’ money. If a rebbe shmoozed with kids about sports during class for 5 minutes, would you want money back for that too? It’s a ridiculous starting point.
As for parents not wanting XYZ – what i teach is no secret. Let them go somewhere else if the kid comes home and mentions an ohr hachaim that the father disapproves of. Not my problem. I send home sheets all the time; I’ve never had a problem with a parent calling up and saying that I’m teaching fantacism
And no, I’m not interested in quoting norman lamm together with the beis halevi, or other seforim i use. No sefer i quote from is not known to hanhallah. They have no issue with any of it. I don’t tell them rav tzvi kaplan’s statements about the mishpacha magazine, however; you have to know your audience. The kids love kabalah oriented stories, which at first hanhallah was a little put off to(i.e. kav hayashar) but they ultimately decided it was fine.
I don’t tell them not to go to college. I do encourage them to devote as much of their free time as they can to learn, and to spend time with their friends as well. When a boy gets into learning, 9 times out of 10 they’re not itching to go to collegw anyway. And I’m not even anti college to begin with.
I’ve clashed with parents over a few things, but almost always they come to thank me at the end of the year. My class acts differently than the rest of the school, without any “in your face” behavior. Wearing yarmulkes when playing ball, for one. Not eating unchecked, infested fresh fruitscame up once or twice. Staying off of smartphones is something hanhallah is very supportive of..parents, not as much. They want the easy babysitting. Hanhallah does want them on the internet for schoolwork, and that’s something I can’t do much about, and I’m quiet about it.
But I’ve never had a parent complain of chutzpa, as in the kid acting arrogantly over his torah knowledge or observance. Like i said, derech eretz is a huge deal in my lessons, and it’s something they see from me practically.
Yserb, do you think Hashem would tell us “lesheves yatzarta” and command us to have as many kids as possible, in the mitzvah of “ulerev al tanach yadecha” after being mekayam pru urvu, if by doing so we would have depleted the food supply?
Are you aware of how anti torah your whole premise is?
yserb….oy. I never said that there were only two choices. That’s what you and Dofi think I said. Read it again. I am trying to isolate your values and you’re trying to weasel out of it.
GIVEN the choice between the two, if those were your only choices, which one would you choose?
Are you concerned that admitting that olam hazeh is simply more important to you will topple all of your anti charedi tirades?
Forget the question I asked – I’ll ask this one instead. Which is more important to you, olam hazeh or olam haba? Physical success or spiritual success? Simple questions. No way of wiggling out of it.
AAQ, I really dont care what a MO rabbi says against chazal, rishonim and poskim across the board. A mechalel shabbos loses the din of a yisroel. People who are not “oseh maaseh amcha” are not in the pasuk of amcha, amiso, etc..
And that’s what I quote when I teach. Word for word, pasuk, gemara, rishonim. I don’t add in anything of my own.
And they don’t run around calling other Jews names or making fun of them. Because they know there’s a zero tolerance policy for bullying of any sort. It all goes together; like I said, you can be aware of someone’s level and status without treating them badly, which is one of the most important lessons a child can learn. Otherwise, they end up adults with no sense of justice, as can be evidenced above.
I also don’t stress the negative aspects. I spend 99% of the time talking about how much of a privilege it is to learn and keep the torah, and how lucky we are to be jews, and not just frum jews, but jews who have the opportunity to sit and learn torah. And here and there I’ll talk about the darkness of a life without torah. Because ahavah and yirah are both necessary.
Schools look at the products of a classroom, and while they may not agree with every thing I say, they like how my kids turn out. Like I said, I have a very, very low drop out rate, much lower than the 20% average for MO and less than the 10% average for mainstream yeshivos.
You would actually want a beis din to refund your tuition for the teaching of pesukim according to chazal? I hope you’re exaggerating.
AAQ, there are many ways to improve peoples’ lives. I asked you – is there a source that says that we are to repair or investigate or even be aware of climate issues whatsoever, aside from localized air pollution from billowing smoke and smog which makes people visibly cough?
Don’t skirt around the question – is there a source or isn’t there. Talking about improving irrigation, transportation, harvesting, etc…has nothing to do with this yes or no question.
You are right, however, that I’m in-between having been eretz yisroel age and having children of my own who are old enough; i knew all about EY yeshivos 7 years ago; now, i don’t, because all of my friends live in the states, and i haven’t kept up much with the people i know by rav tzvi who are still in the yeshivah, at least not enough to get an idea of what the landscape is like.
Which is why i stayed out of the conversation about the yeshivos that i was not familiar with. In my days, there were a few years when people were flocking to rav meir and rav dovid, then there was a time that rav sholom was the place to go… My Yeshiva didn’t have any reshimos for Brisk, because it allows college, but if you really really wanted to go (and only one guy did) the rosh Yeshiva had more than enough pull to get someone in
and the guys who wanted to be subjected to strict mussar, discipline and de-anericanizing went to rav tzvi. Granted they weren’t modern, just the daas baalei batim sort of thing that’s hard to shake for some people. Rav tzvi did actually have some guys from some slightly modern yeshivos, if you can call them modern at all, like yesodei.
American, just to clarify, i got into Torah judaism when i was in high school, around 16 years old. I was in an MO school, and my newfound knowledge and observances cost me my entire circle of girlfriend -having, TV watching friends, as well as my shul – i changed shuls, the rov of which directed me to my Yeshiva, where i spent 13 years sitting and learning, minus eretz yisroel and a brief stint in a different Yeshiva.
American, I’m referring to rav yaakov shapiro, who was among the only talmidei chachamim online in the late 90s and early 2000s. Both ujm and i are into his writings, with him often quoting him word for word. Rav shapiro is also the author of the encyclopedic the empty wagon – you can reach him by email, which is in the sefer, or on his podcasts online.
The rest of the essays are on the frumteens archives, some of which are on old blogs and others are on jewswithquestions, a short lived update to frumteens.
Rav Shapiro is very close to rav elya ber, who guided him in frumteens and his other activities, including his anti-Zionist writings and protests.
Dofi, let’s go this route instead.
When you think of frum jews who engage in improper business deals, keep their wives chained as agunos, and other things, do you feel malice towards them? If so, are you still capable of loving them,and if so, why not? Why are they different than people who violate the Torah in other ways?
Or is it only certain prohibitions that you’re comfortable with accepting as people you can love and feel compassion for?
Where is the line drawn? Between mitzvos that are ben Odom lemakom and ben adam lechavero? If so, do you feel able to love a modern orthodox jew who takes jews to court? And if so, why is that different?
Take some time to think about what I’m saying without a knee jerk reaction. What I’m saying is that to love other jews, you need to be accepting of their faults, but not oblivious to them. It’s a level of real ahavas yisroel. Because the alternative is to only love jews who you personally think are ok and spur whoever you decide isn’t.
Pekak – rav Lichtenstein is not the only brisker in torah vodaas…mori verabi rav savitsky has been rosh yeshiva since 1991.
Dofi, what i really feel for other jews is love and compassion. But in your world, that’s only for people who are…tzadikim? As frum as you?
Shimon – does the torah say to look into the bri’ah and see what harms it and adjust our lives accordingly? Have any Jews ever done that?
At the most, even if there is an issue, it would be no better than rav moshe’s “shomer pasaim Hashem” heter regarding smoking.
No, I don’t think anyone should smoke….that’s not the point. learn the teshuvah, it’s seminal in the area of the halacha being discussed.
lernt, that’s nothing new in torah vodaas. Rav Belsky used to fight with parents often when their children wanted to leave secular studies in 10th, 11th grade. Rav Belsky had unique hashkofos in secular studies: he encouraged some to go to college, most not to, and most to stay in high school regents. A select few who were outstanding in their desire to learn the entire day, which they demonstrated beforehand, he supported them not staying in secular studies classes in high school.
I also never called MO jews “worthless” – I’m pretty careful in the words i use. No jew is without worth. Especially when a jew keeps at least some mitzvos, and spends a large percentage of their income on jewish education, such as it is. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t abominations and kefirah, of which there are plenty.
Dofi, nobody uses their real names here, and I’ve shared who my rebbein are many, many times. Take a look at my posts; it’s no secret. I don’t know why you’re into ad hominem issues – well, it might have something to do with the indefensible practices and beliefs that i rant about on here. Rather than at least try to counter with sources, like AAQ, you’d rather attack me as a person, so good luck with that! I suppose you’ll also try to find my school and try to get me fired because you don’t like my hashkofos – good luck with that too! The school knows me very well and isn’t really concerned with what i write in an anonymous forum, but you clearly are.
As for how i put things to children – not every fact can be told as it is to every person. I never, ever put down their parents or other teachers. Very rarely does a child say “but we do this differently in my house”, and when it happens, it’s usually a difference of minhahim which i explain. Sometimes a kid says “but I do this”, which is a big difference, and this happens a lot. I’ll show him the sources and gently tell him that we’re all here to learn, and that i myself learn new halachos very often which i was not aware of.
It’s kinda like how the Arizal writes that goyim have no tzad tov at all, and how chazal say that they’re not called adam, etc… It doesn’t change the halacha that mandates that we treat people with kovod habrios and don’t steal from them, etc..
Whatever the truth is about the majority or a plurality of MO people, it has nothing to do with how i treat people in real life situations. It might be a bit of a brain exercise of going outside of your comfort zone, but it is possible to have a negative view of a society or a community and still treat them as human beings and as yidden, Hashem’s children, who He loves more than anything.
Aaq, Hashem told that to Moshe. Moshe did what a Jew does, he davened. And Hashem told him peh el peh that now is the time to trust my promises of miracles and jump into the sea. Same with Doctors. Chazal derive it from a pasuk, verapo yirapeh, otherwise it would have been assur, because it’s a gezerah.
So do we have a pasuk and a command from Hashem to exercise hishtadlus in climate issues? No. Or if we do, please provide a source.
Aaq, I’m surprised that you think I’m a neturei karta member – I’m just a run of the mill yeshiva product, who learned to be anti-Zionist from gedolim who had no affiliation with neturei karta, or even satmar.
As for how i teach my students; i never speak about zionism in class. I don’t tell them anything about the state of Israel, or zionist leaders. The school knows that I’m different from most of the other faculty, and they respect it. The school acknowledges 5 iyyar, but does not say hallel.
What i do is spread Torah. I do, however, make a point of certain things that they’re likely never to hear elsewhere, as it is a kiruv -esque yeshiva. I mention the pasuk of hayom hazeh nihiyeseh li l’am, that we became a nation by kabalas Hatorah, and that rav saadya gaon says that only Torah is what makes us jews. Sometimes a kid will ask “what about non religious jews? Are they jewish?” To which i answer that they are looked at, mostly, as innocent captured children. For those who do know better, i tell them that they’ve forfeited their right to be part of the jewish nation, but they’re welcome to come back.
I’ve never had a kid ask me “but isn’t judaism about torah and a land and a language.”
I also purposely avoid the made up day school havara, and the kids actually copy the way I speak when they’re in school. One kid told me that when i say hebrew words, it’s a lot warmer and what i say sticks in his head a lot more.
I stress positivity, and i never get angry with the kids. Once in a blue moon i get serious, and they know something big must have happened to warrant it. I also encourage the kids to prove me wrong about things; i offer them prizes if they can show that i made a mistakr. I do that to get them to learn more, and to show them that in Torah we don’t stand by our words. I try to teach them to deal with social problems in the same way, to always want the truth to win out, even if it’s embarrassing.
You’d be surprised, given my tone on here, what happens in my classroom. Kids spout all sorts of kefirah that they’ve been programmed to say. Sometimes I’ll take note of it and work it into a lesson not aimed at any one student. I’ve kept up with several of my talmidim and I’ve helped some get into frummer schools. I’ve also had parents go from giving me tongue lashings over telling their boys that Hashem sees them when they play ball and that they should cover their heads, to thanking me at the end of the year and saying that they know so many other kids who are going off the derech, etc… I’m happy to say that I’ve almost never had a kid go off the derech in my class, as far as i know.
Dofi, you must be late to the party; I’ve been derided quite a lot over what my job is, and I’m sure some parents here would be terrified at the thought of me teaching their children, but what can i do…
Dofi, i never said those were the only two options. Chasidim are not unsuccessful in the world, and yserb agrees that the litvishe are “ok” in his view, he also agrees that MO has serious problems, but says that they’re better off than chasidim
So i asked a pointed question to ascertain where his values are – if he had a choice between being what he thinks a chossid is, or an average MO person, which would he choose?
I’m personally litvishe and i have a job, but that’s not the issue at hand here.
Avram – i hear you. Direct cause and effect, like dumping the garbage, is a good example, which begs a question..why does it natter what my decision is if it’s going to happen anyway? The answer is that it depends on whether or not the decision to do something falls in line with Torah. If the Torah says you’re not supposed to waste food by throwing it out the window, or that you’re not supposed to throw garbage out of a window indiscriminately, because there might be someone there, then a decision to do so would be a bechira decision against the Torah.
But are we commanded not to do actions which harm the environment? If we make smog and hurt people’s breathing, which is a visible, dirext consequence, like throwing garbage out of the window, then such a decision would be a bechira decision against the Torah. But as you said, the damage done would have happened anyway, and the only difference is in the judgement of those responsible.
This is like paroh’s claim to Hashem, that He decreed the jews would be slaves, so why is He mad at paroh? Hashem answered, who asked you to be the rasha to do it?
But for environmentalism as a movement, which believes that humans can hurt the environment or save it, we’d ask ourselves; does the Torah say anywhere to investigate things like the greenhouse effect and other things that climatologists say will ruin or damage the planet? The Torah places us as responsible for the well-being of ourselves and others, but does it ever say that we are to be tasked with protecting the world? Or is that something that we leave up to Hashem as we go about our lives living chayei tevel?
It would be similar to a scientific prediction that a meteor is about to hit earth in 25 years. Countries will start a space race to make colonies on the moon; does that mean a Torah jew should join the movement? No, because without a world, there can be no proper kiyum hamitzvos. We either accept that the world is ending, and do teshuva and daven, knowing that it is only in the hands of Hashem, or we deny it and say that the scientists are wrong.
Same thing here. My main problem is that frum jews who believe in the climate cult do not respond with calls to do teshuva and daven. Instead they think they can fix it on their own. I personally side wirh rav avigdor miller, who called the whole thing a left wing conspiracy. But i can definitely see room for a believing jew to accep their predictions – as long as the response is that of a jew dacing a gezerah min hashomayim.
Also, while many in MO are coming around, a very large amount are moving more to the samech mem, i.e. the left, with increasing abandonment of torah, gender bender and LGBT tolerance, open orthodoxy, etc…
More and more out of town pulpits are being taken by open orthodox “rabbis” which were previously held by young israel types.
Modern orthodoxy in its current state presents the greatest ideological threat to the continuity of judaism outside of the yeshiva and chasidishe world. It was never as bad as it is now.
Yserb, please clarify: what is worse in your view, to be successful in Torah and mitzvos while unsuccessful in worldly matters, or to be an ignorant sinner with anti torah philosophies while being wildly successful in worldly matters?
Which would you choose if you had the choice?
Avram, bechira allows a person to decide to do something, but does not allow it to happen unless it’s min hashomayim. There’s no other power besides Hashem in the world.
Also, rav gorelick, with his family, started yeshiva of south fallsburg, one of the most yeshivish yeshivos in America.
Yserb, you simply have values outside of torah if you think that lack of education causes more harm than institutionalized sin and heresy(the act of comingling and the idea that it’s proper, respectively).
What MO does is robbing Jewish children of avodas Hashem and olam haba. What a lack of education supposedly does, according to critics, at its worst, is harm a child’s ability to get around in olam hazeh. But it’s demonstrably false, because chasidim have very strong communitiea and families. Do you live for olam hazeh? I think it sounds like you do.
As for rav Shapiro, he didn’t spend that much time talking about his illustrious father in law, rav yeruchan gorelick, teaching in YU. He wrote that rav gorelick was vehemently opposed to modern orthodoxy, sent good talmidim away from YU, and only remained there due to parnosa necessity. Originally rabbi yoshe ber had told rav gorelick that the only yeshiva that can make it in America was YU, to which rav gorelick would krechtz about later, when the exact opposite was proven, where YU is a tiny fraction of the yeshiva world.
I didn’t write much on frumteens either, but I was in touch with rabbi Shapiro quite often; i still talk to him once in a while, in fact. He was planning on writing his book on zionism for many years; originally it was going to be based on frum teens, but it ended up being a veritable encyclopedia!
Ujm, were you by any chance Taon over there?
Lernt, there are a lot of brisker hangahos which have become popular among Yeshivaleit, mostly because so many go to brisker affiliated yeshivos. This includes the brisker rov’s chumros on daled minim, particularly the “chut” for hadasim and a very strict standard for yavesh on Lulavim, as well as taking multiple types of Esrogim. Also included are chumros in tekias shofar, and having thick payos. There are a lot of other examples, but i can’t think of them off the top of my head.
Ujm, you’re being mezakeh rabbi Shapiro after his writings are not as accessible as they used to be. These essays were part of my transformation from the spiritual depravity of the MO life to true torah, and reading his words gives me tremendous nostalgia and warm feelings. Thank you
Lernt, brisk is a torah community. Rav avrohom yehoshua wouldn’t have been accepted if he weren’t reoi lekach.
American, that was a well put explanation of bikores – thank you.
I also find it ironic that damoshe is fine with his rebbe, who is not from the gedolei hador, criticizing rav avrohom yeshoshua, but is not ok with rav avrohom yehoshua criticizing other rabbonim…
i suppose it’s ok because it’s your own rebbe, and maybe it gives damoshe a little more comfort in rejecting the frummest elements of klal yisroe, in favor of the fabric-wearing crowd.
I think anyone with the time on their hands to moderate an internet forum isn’t qualified to levy daas torah decisions, myself included. That doessn’t mean I can’t use this forum to spread the daas torah that ive acquired from my rebbeim, however.
Da, there are conditions upon which brisker roshei yeshiva were historically very maikil with tefilah betzibur; rav avrohom yehoshua doing so under those circumstances is not a surprise to me at all.
One of the rabbonim from the Brog family, i forget which one, gave a drasha about the importance of having a rebbe to us bochurim in camp about 8 years ago. He mentioned his literal adventures with rav dovid soloveitchik, who he developed a close relationship with. He offered to take rav dovid on a bein hazmanim trip, which rav dovid surprisingly agreed to! When it became time to daven mincha, he chose to daven alone, because he was makpid to wear talis and tefilin by mincha, and he didn’t want people around him to think he was a member of a certain chasidus that I’d rather not mention.
Rav chaim brisker held that minyan is not a chiyuv, which is part of why brisker roshei yeshiva aren’t as makpid on it as other segments of the Torah world.
Respecting the position of rosh yeshiva when talking to impressionable bochurim is extremely important. It’s like how parents must respect their children’s rebbeim even if they think that they’re mistaken, because of the position they occupy. Now you can switch your kid’s rebbe, but as long as he’s in the class, he needs to have a high impression of the rebbe, as representative of Torah. For a rebbe in darchei to publicly disparage noy just a rosh Yeshiva, but someone many of his talmidim will go to to learn from, is against his duties as a rebbe. To me, it’s enough to make him upgefreight; disqualifying.
Moshe was even told to show kovod malchus to paroh….is rav avrohom yehoshua worse??
Again, brisker “bikores” is misunderstood, the same way your rebbe misunderstood davening beyechidus. Maybe he should learn the brisker toros before talking about things he clearly has no idea about.
There’s precedent for giving a kallah a lot of money for kiddushin, as the bnos beis shamai would only accept kiddushin from several gold dinnarim(i forgot the number).
Granted, a vort is noy kiddushin at all. Also, giving presents to one another in the yichud room, which are very expensive, is based on gemara as well.
Perhaps we can switch to lab created diamonds, which many peoole have already done; they last as long as natural ones, and have exactly the same physical, molecular properties. Only under a microscope can a jeweler with a keen eye tell by the perfect uniformity of a lab diamond that it’s not natural. They’re much cheaper than natural diamonds.
Jewelry makes a kallah feel appreciated and special to her chosson; regardless of the exact type of jewel used, it’s an important part of the formation of a zivug.
If we’re going to look to make chasunos more affordable, there are many, many things that can be done. Cheaper halls, no schmorgasboard, no 10 man band, no liqueur on every table…there are ways of making a chasuna feel just as much bakavodik, with virtually no one noticing a difference, without spending unnecessarily.
Ujm, there are 4 or 5 of us yeshiva people on here….take your pick
It’s not assur, but it’s a waste and bitul torah
Yserb, yekkishe rabbonim all had doctorates; it was part of his path to the rabbinate. German Jews respected people who were educated; it was that way since the aruch l’neir.
As for what you heard, talk to people who are into learning from Washington heights. A great deal sent their kids to my Yeshiva, and i know them personally. The Yeshiva rav breur started also teaches no such thing as secular studies being independently important, as rav Boruch ber described as pure apikorsus, that there is enlightenment outside torah, chas veshalom. Rav breuer hired people like the novominsker rebbe who certainly didn’t think fhat way, to be roshei yeshiva.
Derech eretz doesn’t equal secular studies.
If you heard that derech eretz has value besides parnossa, then you’re 100% right. Derech eretz, the full spectrum of worldly involvement, is a means of glorifying Hashem in the world, perfecting one’s character, and is far more than just making money or secular studies.
Again, nowhere does rav hirsch or rav breuer, or rishonim, chazal, or anyone besides maskilim, say that secular studies in themselves have value besides helping one learn torah or earning a living.
Rav hirsch writes, based on chazal, that the chochmos are the handmaids of Torah; they serve the torah, they are not anything of themselves.
Torah umada, made by people inspired by maskilim like belkin and revel, believes that they are, chas veshalom equal. You’re probably somewhere in the middle of the two, but still in the category of the apikorsus rav boruch ber described to rav shimon Schwab, the rov of the yekkies after rav breuer. You can find that piece, if you’re capable of reading rav boruch ber’s writing style, in the end of birkas shmuel on kiddushin. Check it out, it might give you an idea of how far away from yiddishkeit the world outside the yeshivos and chasidus is.
Not *every* from Jewish news outlet reported on it. Some are more cautious.
Also, what “duty” does a news outlet have to report the incident immediately, to make people aware of the individual, if the incident is over and the man is arrested? Who will he hurt in jail? Ywn should have done what certain other news outlets did and wait to hear the whole story before publishing anything at all. Instead, the race to be first with the news and get to clicks is more important.
Ujm, happens to be I’ve heard the story about rav avrohom yehoshua criticizing, or in the brisker lingo, levying “bikores” on rav Moshe. He had no problem doing so publicly in his 30s when ue came out shtark against rav shach, the gadol hador. It’s not that he didn’t hold of them, it’s a brisker mahalach which is commonly misunderstood. And I’ve heard the part about a bochur saying “in America we say that a soloveitchik made a churban”
But…it also got brisker talmidim blacklisted in the rest of the israeli yeshiva world. Not so in America; quite the opposite, actually.
As for a rebbe publicly calling rav avrohom yehoshua by his English initials…does he call rabbi yoshe ber JB? Probably not. It’s an insult to kovod Hatorah. Whatever you think of rav avrohom yehoshua, he was respected by the brisker inner circles, despite there being plenty of politics. Darchei is a great Yeshiva, but that’s not something a talmid chacham would do – if for nothing else than for the position rav avrohom yehoshua occupies. It’s a bizayon Hatorah.
Shimon, if there’s something in the world that requires me to get ky head out of a gemara, the dvar Hashem, and enter into the words of goyim reshoim, then I’d rather have my head in the gemara for as long as I’m able to, and I don’t have to worry about the tzar ham’nabayach, barking screaming evil doers who want there to be less life and who think that they control the world, for better or worse.
As for evidence, when i was a kid, the scientists were saying that in 10 years, coastal cities would be submerged, there would never be any snow, and in 20 years life would all be destroyed. They made so many predictions that at least some of them happened, so they can point to them, ignore their false claims, and say “look, we were right!” And the masses gobble up their nonsense.
Yserb, rav breuer said no such thing. He also said on himself that once he graduated, he never opened a secular book for the rest of this life (rav belsky said he heard this from him)
His essays, published a few years ago, are all about parnossa and aiding learning torah. Not a word about being “well rounded” or whatever.