Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Rocky, i said nothing about weisman as a person. I quoted his insulting and mocking the idea of daas Torah and his supposed astonishment that “such things are normal to so many people”
The freezer is far from new. And the Lakewood roshei yeshiva, who are daas torah in the largest torah community in America, hold of it. If a bochur’s rebbe doesn’t hold of it, he can learn somewhere else – there are a growing amount of options for post eretz yisroel bochurin which do not have a freezer.
What i said about his potential to he chazir feselech is simply a suggestion that if he wanted to reach the people who are involved in his issues, he should have addressed them from their mindset; then i remarked that such a subterfuge would, while being effective, also be insidious.
I’m just talking about what he said and what he could have said.
But come to think of it, it does sound more like he’s just kvetching; while he doesn’t seem to have personally been affected by the system(I’m not sure, i didn’t read all of his writings) he wants to advocate for people who he thinks are – but he clearly has not spent sufficient time trying to appreciate the ideals and values of the Torah world, instead looking from the outside in and wondering why we can’t do things like he does.
Coffee, I agree that every tragedy is ultimately good, but when it comes to spiritual calamities, we respond differently ythan physical ones. When the Jews were threatened during Purim, they accepted it as a gezerah from shomayim; they knew they were deserving of the punishment, and davened, fasted, did teshuvah, and were saved in the end. They didn’t make plans for war.
When the goyim attacked the torah during chanukah, we didn’t keep quiet. We went to war for Hashem, but that’s the only time we respond that way.
The Holocaust was like a Purim story, except we did not escape the gezerah…the chazon ish said we would have if we had responded to it the way the yidden did in eretz yisroel; i.e., fasting, teshuvah, davening, etc…which is when Rommel was confounded miraculously, like Sancheriv in Yerushalayim.
What the state represents is an attack from Yavanim. They are continuously trying to undermine Hashem and His Torah at every turn, and they’ve been successful. Our response to spiritual threat isn’t to sit and say gam zu letovah; it’s a spur from shomayim to improve ourselves, separate ourselves from the assimilationists and fight any and all attempts at increasing the already collosal, heretofore nonexistent level of chilul Hashem that the state makes every second of every day. We need to tell the world that the state does not represent the Jewish people, to minimize that chilul Hashem as much as we can. How can we sit idly by while the name of Hashem is dragged through the mud so very much?
Right, fair point that it’s not a navi, but we also find that the soton does things like this as a test, like when he made an image of Moshe dying on har Sinai to test klal yisroel and see if they would sin, and they did, with the egel.
As for individual stories – every war in history has hashgocha protis stories, in every country. War is a time when people see the yad Hashem more than usual…as the saying goes, there aren’t any atheists in a foxhole.
And if Hashem did a miracle for an atheist who went around parading his sins after the state was made, does that mean Hashem did a miracle for a person like that and that he deserved it? Or was it, as the brisker rov said, in order to safeguard the frummer yidden who lived in eretz yisroel – in spite of, not because of the zionists? The latter is a lot clearer.
Regarding the year count – yes, we’ve been in galus for 2,000 years, and yes gedolim have said and continue to say that Moshiach is ready to come soon…but he hasn’t, and if you think that the state is the ashchalta…. nothing redemptive has happened since then. Only more sin and more terrorism. 70 years is a galus in itself, as it was after bayis rishon, so how can over 70 years be an aschalta?
If anything, chazal say that it holds back moshiach, as the gemara says that ben dovid will not come until the lowest jewish rulership is gone.
Y – i didn’t mean to be exhaustive; i quoted the opinions that most gedolim held, in one form or another. Some of the names you quoted are not accurate, including rav yaakov, but others don’t hold a candle to the chazon ish, brisker rov, etc…
As for rav ovadia not only believing that there were miracles but that that somehow shows Hashem’s approval of the state…i don’t recall him saying that, but it’s a mistake either way, because the Torah says clearly in open pesukim that we’re not supposed to listen to miracles if they are done by false neviim. Even the chashmonaim weren’t certain of the miracles they experienced until the neis of the pach shemen.
It remains to be explained how it’s a tenable position that something which by its very existence is the biggest global chilul Hashem – akin to putting up billboards all over the world that Jewish people are tel aviv culture and nationalists – can be a good thing. Was there peripheral benefit? Yes. Is there an idea that we need to be grateful to Hashem for that benefit despite whatever else is going on? Some looked at it that way. But to look at it positively overall or as some messianic thing… It’s just a dimyon which has proven to be false, because it’s been 73 years and moshiach has not come yet.
Square, maybe not hook up culture, but a lowering of our standards and a call to have men and women mingle.
For the record, MO people have just as much, if not more older singles than the Yeshiva world.
If you’ve ever learned yismach yisroel, one of if not my favorite chasidishe seforim, you wouldn’t dream that such an accusation has merit. The rebbe had a palpable love of klal yisroel that you can feel when you read his holy words.
Moshiach, where does the torah say to have a jewish state in our homeland?
The term homeland is also wrong. It implies we became a nation there; we didn’t, we became a nation when Hashem said we were His people – which was when we received the Torah. We became a nation in the midbar.
Making a state violates the Torah, so do you think Hashem would nake a miracle for it to be created?
There were different schools of thought regarding how to view the state. The satmar rov said that if there were miracles – which he said there weren’t – it wouldn’t prove anything, just as they don’t prove that a navi sheker is true. It would be a maysoh soton.
The brisker rov said that the zionists were successful because after the Holocaust, there was a tremendous ais ratzon. If klal yisroel wanted moshiach, he would have come – instead they wanted a state, so that’s what they got.
And now we’re stuck with it, with no clear way out of the grasp of zionists poisoning the holy land with their chilul Hashem.
Can you think of a bigger chilul Hashem than a state which calls itself jewish not following the Torah? It’s literally the biggest chilul Hashem since maysoh bereshis… something which says it’s jewish while being totally frei.
This is a snipet from an article Weissman wrote, which
Square published a few days ago:You read that right. In many parts of the Orthodox world, yeshiva students do not begin dating when they are ready to get married and want to get married – the younger the better – but when the powerful rabbis, who supersede both parents and their adult children, allow them to. Until then, the men are proverbially incarcerated in something called “the freezer” (I am not making this up) and barred from fulfilling the very first mitzva given to the human race.
They are literally frozen out of marrying and starting a family until a quasi-prophet with “Da’as Torah” deigns to allow them. Hordes of devout Jews have been conditioned to believe this is both normal and “the Torah way”
Weisman blasts daas torah and listening to rabbonim. If he wanted yeshiva people to entertain his ideas, he really should have tapped into their mindset and perspective, instead of assuming that the whole world thinks like norman lamm. It’s tonedeaf.
Actually, Im glad he didnt engage in such subterfuge, because takeh this way no one listens, instead of it being chazir fiselech.
Gadol, don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Not many, if any, said anything about women not leaving the house. That’s a pet peeve of yours that you fight with ujm about here on a weekly basis, but that’s not what the gedolim have stressed after tragedies.
The chofetz chaim would always say that international tragedies are reminders from Hashem for us to do teshuva. And it wasn’t his chidush; the gemara says it openly – “punishments only come to the world because of yisroel” – the vilna gaon writes a lot about this too. It’s Hashem’s way of reminding us what is fitting to happen to us, but because of His mercy He metes out punishment on goyim instead(who, of course, are deserving in their own right)
When tragedies happen, whether personal, communal, national, or international, the response of every gadol and manhig from literally ever to denomination of klal yisroel has been to see it as a fall for teshuva. What kind of teshuva? That’s where it gets complicated. But teshuva it is. The rambam says that when tragedy strikes and we don’t acknowledge it as being a heavenly punishment and call to teshuva, we are called cruel, because we xause only more suffering to happen.
And chumash says this very openly in the tochacha.
Forget about women being out on Coney Island Avenue. Take tragedies as a reminder to do teshuva for whatever personal shortcomings you – like everyone else – have.
This made me smile
Goyim want there to be aliens to confirm their beliefs in the randomness and purposelessness of creation, letting them go after their desires and ponder their genders all they want without fear of abrogating their responsibility.
Hashem gave one Torah, so anything else with bechirah in the universe would be created without the ability to serve Hashem, and thus with no purpose.
It’s entirely possible – likely even – that there are plants and animals on other planets, perhaps waiting for a time to come when people will need their resources.
Avi, rabbis from literally every camp of orthodoxy forbade going on har habayis, including rabbi kook and his son rabbi tzvi yehudah kook, every single chief rabbis, sefardi and ashkenazi…the only exception was shlomo goren, and even he only told people privately and didn’t want to publicize it.
That’s besides the original issur from rabbonim in Yerushalayim in the times of rav shmuel salant, when Montefiore thought he was allowed to go while carried in a box, etc…
Yes, video surveillance is used by hashgochos, even the badatz, but that’s not testimony – like you said, it’s establishing knowledge.
What I’m referring to is if we have a video of a person doing an aveirah, it’s not admissible for chiyuvei misa or makos(even if there’s no hasraah, i.e. a talmid chacham or megadef)
That’s because there’s no hagadah, no al pi shnayim. The camera isn’t an “aid”
Nevermind the mipi ksavam – i retract that part.
Ujm, I’ve seen rishonim who say that it was extraordinarily rare to have many wives in the times of chazal – this is from rav yaakov antuli, one of the chachmei proventzia in melamed talmidim. He says that Hashem created adam and chava as husband and wife, not two or three women. He has an interesting yesod that many things aren’t expressly prohibited, but the Torah tells us stories which hint to us what Hashem wants
I saw someone else mention that the torah hints to this by calling co wives “tzaros”, in a very negative expression, with the only mention in chumash being by a ben soreh umoreh
The melamed talmidim writes more…saying being something that most people would never think of doing, because it’s hard enough to provide for one wife. Only by a king does the Torah have to specify an issur, because only kings could support many women.
“כי כן בא הסיפור [בפרשת בראשית] שאשה אחת נבראה מצלע האדם להיות עזר כנגדו, ולא נבראו שתיים, כי הן [=כלומר, ריבוי הנשים] על הרוב לצער ונזק, והוא שאמר ‘ודבק באשתו והיו לבשר אחד’. ואף על פי שלא נאסרו בתורה שתיים נשים או יותר, כבר קדם לנו כי הדברים שירחיקם השכל – יספיק לתורה במניעתם בדרך סיפור. וכשם שלא אסרה התורה השיכרות בפירוש, והספיק לה ברמזים בסיפורים, כן לא אסרה התורה לקחת נשים רבות, כי מי זה אשר ימלאנו לבו לעשות כן והלואי שיספיק האחת ובניה. אמנם המלכים, שממשלתם רבה בעושר ונכסים, הם שהיה הצורך להזהירם שלא ירבו להם נשים, אבל שאר אנשים אין צורך להזהירם, כי נזהרים הם מעצמם על זה”.
It’s no better than mipi k’savam
American, just as we guard our houses with maakos, we guard our safety in galus according to the teachings of chazal, who tell us that we are to keep a low profile, and that angering goyim causes Jews to die
I can hear Abie Rotenberg’s song in my head when I saw this thread
My point was that this answers a kasha that people are bothered by; why the Torah doesn’t allow video or photo evidence
Anon, check out the first piece of meshech chochma in parshas shemos, very fundamental piece of hashkofa. He writes that while we accept neviim, and testimony of witnesses in halacha, it’s a gezeras hakasuv, because even a true navi can go off, like chananiah ben azor, who became a navi sheker and went against yirmiah. Witnesses can lie, and neviim can produce miracles to orove themselves even if they’re lying, so we only believe them because of a gezeras hakasuv.
Not so Moshe rabbeinu and the torah itself; ‘gam becha yaaminu leolam” we believe in nevuas moshe because our ancestors were brought to his level of nevuah, and Hashem told them openly that this is my emissary, listen to his Torah, and of course we heard Hashem giving us the Torah itself. But we don’t believe in it because of krias yam suf or the makos, etc..
Who knows if the amount of Jews he endangers by going on har habayis is more or less than the amount he’ll save with counterterrorism…and who knows how many jews will be endangered due to backlash over extreme counterterrorism..
I like how he’s pro yiddishkeit in other ways, far more charedi-friendly than his predecessors who pretended to be frum; but at what cost?
Can shas or rabbi thau have an influence on him to keep his mouth shut and mellow out?
AI actually strengthens a Torah concept. Video and audio evidence is not accepted in a beis din in general; you need witnesses, shtaros, etc…
Now with AI being able to put faces of people onto videos and mimic their voices, even goyishe courts will soon change this policy.
And if you think yeshiva guys spend the whole day ragging on freikeit – spend a day in BMG and see how many of the conversations are about MO.
I have a friend who’s modern-minded in some ways, but feels very comfortable in Lakewood, because he’s very into learning and that’s what he and his chabura spend their time doing.
Nom, the only issue which is not subjective and warped in your oost is that of the fake gitten given to people with pull and money. And it happened once. It’s not institutionalized, and those in the inner circles already believed that gadol to be past his independent prime and under the influence of his far less worthy son.
But do the yeshivos teach that one may change halacha to accommodate the rich? Do they believe in a yiddishkeit which teaches them that helping the rich supercedes halacha, or is it just one aberration that fell through the cracks?
The rest of your post is not really intelligible. I don’t know where you got the idea that yeshivos are abandoning bochurim or even what that means, and i also don’t want to know who you consider a gaon and which yungeleit are changing halacha with chumros. It’s just baseless.
Dofi, if you can produce a study that shows that more than 30% of charedi Jews habitually engage in sinful behavior, then by all means, do. But the fact that you buy into New York Times propaganda about the ultra orthodox and hasidic jewish crooks just says more about where you spend time than anything else.
It’s anecdotal, and it’s because you don’t like frum people. It’s your own sinas hatorah that amei haaretz have, and it’s nothing new – you can go from Akiva wanting to bite rabbis to being Rebbe Akiva if you’d apply yourself to learning.
And if you’ll read the Nishma study, you’ll see that there’s plenty of MO crookedness in bein odom lechavero too; it tops their list of most important priorities, together with yeshiva costs, with the left winfg believingt that “womens issues” is very important.
The reason we’re discussing institutionalized heresy and sin is because it’s a direct product of MO education, culture, and community. The mother’s milk is all about zionism, social justice, movies, tv, unfettered internet access, making frei people and goyim into heros, the idea that some people “arent cut out to be frum,” secularization of jewish values, belief in modern “isms,” and loads more.
In the yeshiva world, there are sinners, but they’re not claiming to represent the yeshiva world. Their sin is despite their upbringing of fear of Hashem and Torah mattering above all else. And no one made a movement in the yeshivos to accept LGBT and other sins. It doesn’t happen, because the institution – the culture, leadership, communal/social norms, are all about Torah and Hashem, with nothing else mixed in. The only normalized problems are a pursuit of gashmius among SOME, baalabatish people, who if not for yeshivos, would not only be gashmiusdik, but also far less observant. Instead of having 30% not keeping halacha and 60% not being maaminim, we have almost everyone keeping halacha and believing, with some who sin on ocassion, and others who pursue the wrong things in life while devoting the lions share of their time and money to torah matters, including tzedaka and paying tuiton. Gashmius pursuit, while wrong, is nowhere near the scale of sinfulness and breaches of halacha delineated in this thread.
If you walk into a MO shul dressed like a shiksa, no one will bat an eyelash; actually, saying that she dresses like one will raise many more eyebrows and will signal calls of misogyny and whatever else.
That doesn’t happen anywhere else. Just MO. Where are the female rabbis, the LGBT advocates, the psychologists who think they know better than rabbonim, the ethicists who question the Akeidah, the people who say we need to “reconsider” shelo asani ishah, the people who think that yeshiva men are cavemen because they dont go to college, the people who have more respect for the atheist ben gurion than for rav shach, and tons else…
where are they?
Sorry avram, i meant the sefardi comment to yserb – i misread
Dofi, i would criticize the yeshiva world too if its members were involved in institutionalized sin and heresy, but they’re not…and if you have proof that they are, then provide it and we’ll express our intolerance for sin, no matter who does it and what color yarmulke they wear.
Avram, 91% of respondents in the Nishma study were ashkenazi, so your point about sefardim, while valid in other ways, does not pertain to this study, which shows the lack of observance, belief and jewish values of the full gamut of MO, minus the “RWMO” which respond to the questions in a similar way that a yeshiva person would hypothetically respond. But there are other questions which aren’t addressed, such as observance of other mitzvos…what RWMOs responses would be would be interesting to know.
Dofi – so, when i say things baaed on observation, I’m wrong. When i say things based on statistics, I’m wrong…. because of your observations?
Sorry buddy, you’re not convincing anyone with that
Avram, as with kany studies, it’s important to look at the raw data and not focus on the conclusions that the pollster makes. For instance, nishma proudly states that “faith is strong among MO” because over 90% do not deny or have strong doubts about some ikrei enunah. No no no. They don’t get away that easy. When you look at their data, it says a large amount “tend to believe” but not “fully believe” – it’s a nice way of saying that they don’t really believe like a jew who has emunah shlaima. It’s like my rebbe, rav yaakov shweitzer used to say about maskilim; they’re modeh bemiktzas begalui and kofer hakol b’seser.
Dofi, do you have an answer to the statistical facts quotee above? You can find them easily by googling nishma 2017 modern orthodox study
Aaq, the studies i quoted show that MO is an abysmal failure at producing observant Jews.
I failed to mention, which should come as no shock, that according to the Nishma study, only 51% of MO jews fully believe that all of the oral torah is true, 64% believe that Hashem gave the written Torah to the Jews at har Sinai, 51% believe that Hashem guides their lives, and, quite depressingly, only 46% believe that Hashem loves them and that everything that happens is for the best.
They have an easier time…sort of, in believing in Hashem creating the world, with 74% fully believing this. It’s no coincidence that the only belief system here which doesn’t directly obligate one in mitzvos or have Hashem in their lives, is this, and it’s the one that is most popular.
But it means that statistically, a majority of MO people are not full believers. It’s really not that different from conservative, is it?
Dofi, pretty spot on except for 3 things – i never said that MO has open synagogue parking lots on Shabbos, and i never said that MO is robbing children of olam haba(it’s a complicated issue), and i also didn’t say that they are mechalel everything in judaism – just a lot of it.
I also didn’t say that most go off whatever derech you can call MO – i said more of them go off than elsewhere, which is statistically a reality, both in eretz yisrael and here(so you can’t make the argument of “mo schools have frei kids” – yes, the 50+ percent point was off because of that, but the drop out rate in eretz yisroel is 20%, which scales pretty close to how it is here, according to the Nishma study i cited above)
While we’re on the subject of the nishma study…they found that only 62% of MO men wear tefilin everyday, around the same amount are fully observant in shabbos and kashrus, and only 58% of married men are fully observant in taharas mishpacha.
So it’s more than just puk chazi – these are studies done by MO people of MO degeneracy and sinfulness.
And these are the ones who admit to it.
And let’s not forget about all the other mitzvos; these are just the ones that are the most obvious.
I’m sure there will be people who c”v rely on AI to answer halacha shailos…
Dofi, one spends time in a Torah community and sees mostly kedushah; have you been to both places? Have you been outside your basement lately?
Do you not notice that your ad hominem insults only make you look unintelligent and belligerent?
dofi – puk chazi. Go for a stroll in MO neighborhoods and, if you’re a woman, look at how untznius the women are, and if you’re a man, ask your mother/wife/sister to do it for you. It’s not claiming that I saw someone say something somewhere and now I expect you to believe me.
I have nothing to hide – go out and look at what goes on in MO shuls, schools, streets…they don’t hide it at all. Look at the media that they publish, their student newspapers, their social media representatives, their crazy leftist rabbis and rabbits – it’s all on public display.
dofi, i source as much of my statements as I can, and when not, i use logic. His statements were “I saw something somewhere” which is meaningless.
Nom, you’re not providing sources for anything, just claims about things you’ve seen in books, without describing what the scenes were, or where they were. As for ruchoma shain, she did not grow up in a frum community; her father was a trailblazer, and in her public school, she was basically the only frum girl in class…so it makes a lot of sense that her friends would do what goyim and frei people do.
Just repeating that something was historically common in an anonymous forum where no one is believed by authority is very unconvincing.
As for it being a problem by chasidim…you say you’ve seen “posts” about it – don’t be a pesi maamin lechol davar, especially with what you see online.
Also, it’s only being protested in the elements of MO that are influenced by the yeshivos. A large amount of young israel rabbis learned in eretz yisroel in charedi yeshivos. They started saying that bungalo colonies can’t keep calling themselves young israel by virtue of their mixed pools and dances, because YI didn’t want to be associated with such things anymore.
The growing leftist wings of MO are getting worse in these inyonim
Nom, just give a source if there is one – you’re making a claim and not substantiating it. I quotes the steipler, readily available, who expressed shock and disbelief over it.
Nom, what are these accounts of mixed swimming? The steipler wrote of American jews that he was shocked to his core that people who are shomer shabbos can even think of doing such a thing, which he says is yehereg velo yaavor. It was clearly a big deal and something he never heard of, and he was from Europe. It’s in kiryana de’igrasa. I don’t know what naskilish books you read that led you to think otherwise, but if you know of a rov who wrote nonchalantly about mixed swimming, please do tell. I’m sure there weren’t any.
I don’t know how you can group together individual spiritual accessories, such as uman, with mitzvos deoraysoh like peter chamur – there are jews who own donkeys; in Europe, that wasn’t common… simple as that.
And yes, MO was born of haskalah. Its leaders were all soaked in it, including revel and belkin. Their attitudes are taken straight from maskilim who believed in the independent importancd of secular studies and culture. The kind of stuff rav hirsch spent decades fighting.
Nom, yiddishkeit was definitely on the downturn before the Holocaust, in ways that most people don’t know. But that’s just it – it was a downturn. And the gedolim wrote a lot about it, including the trains that picked uo mechalelei shabbos in large jewish cities, women totally throwing away hair covering, and mixed dancing….but you’re not correct about mixed swimming. In all the letters from the chofetz chaim and others mentioning the sins of his day, he doesn’t mention it, nor does anyone else.
Also, you’re laboring under the assumption that yidden didn’t take yiddishkeit seriously until now; the haskalah ravaged European jewry, and even frum people were affected. But before and after that, we kept what the poskim wrote and what the gedolim taught. Do you think the exhortations of the chofetz chaim in all of his letters was made up ex nihili? Rav Moshes letter about tznius in America? The gedolim didn’t invent a new Torah; it’s quite the opposite; MO and its haskalah roots invented new, modern ideas and institutionalized sinfulness.
As it happens, I don’t know of any left wing rabbis who defended the mixed swimming. I think they just kept quiet about it.
And while European jewry was beset with problems, there were many strong communities where torah was paramount. My grandfather’s yeshiva town was one such place, until the last few years when the children joined hashomer hatzair and left Torah. Radin, mir, ponevezh, and many others were places where jews, as you say, took torah very seriously. Chasidim did too, and where did you get the idea that chasidim ever had a community issue with mixed… anything??? They were the only ones who as a community kept tznius, and keep it they did, with every chumra.
Also nom, better to return to the Torah world than brag about leaving it
Nom, who said there wasn’t a torah world before the gaon? And what in the world makes you think that there’s little left of the litvishe world? Do you mean that the level of learning is lower? If so i agree. If you think that the litvishe were maskilish, i can only say that you need to stop reading disproven academic accounts online.
Dofi, we’ve been done with this conversation a page ago.
The main difference between preventing hezek in chazal is that they never tell us we are to look into the briah and determine what harms the world itself, if such a thing exists.
Lernt, not only is it not in the CR, it’s not in shiurim/articles online either, for the most part, except rav osher arieli; i don’t know any other maggid shiur who says chidushim and high level lomdus which is posted on the internet or kol halashon
Rav Baruch ber would sometimes tell talmidim who wrote over chidushim that they’ve “written too much” – the person learning is supposed to figure out a lot of the idea on their own. There’s so, so much that you learn in a shiur or by talking in learning that you can’t find in a sefer.
Nom, i highly doubt rav Jacobs said that. Poor people are just as obligated in getting married as anyone else. That’s what community is for; hachnnosas kallah is a chessed mentioned in the mishnah directly. Everyone deserves to have a family and be part of the continuity of klal yisroel.
Pekak, I’m pretty sure he came when rav fein stopped giving shiur. I could be wrong, but I’ve heard 1991 a lot of times.
Aaq dofi – i would only have to worry about my “true feelings” coming out if i had them hidden away. I don’t; I am able to love Hashem’s children even if they’re off in one way or another. The satmar rov famously helped secular, anti frum zionists with tzedaka – it’s really not a new idea in yiddishkeit.
It’s only new if you’re used to self righteous indignation and allowing yourself to feel hatred about a particular person, whether they wronged you personally or they have engaged in behavior that to your values is abhorrent.
But the Torah doesn’t say to look at people that way. At least not in our time, as we have no din of tochacha according to the chazon ish.
Yserb, you’re right that certain things, limd r”l institutionalized mixed swimming and dancing in young israel were stamped out. If there’s a campaign to spread awareness of negiah – tell me, is it part of a sex education program in schools which emphasizes personal choice and consent while making them aware that there is such a law, but…..”? That’s how most MO people view the issue. Same with tznius, har covering, or pretty much anything in yiddishkeit which goyim would say is restrictive, primitive, etc..
Young israel represents a very different norm of MO than the rest. Its leadership is largely from the yeshiva world, and its policies are in line with normative halacha, for the most part (except mixed large scale kiddush)
Check out the organization Nishma(a modern organization)’s study in 2017 of modern orthodoxy. Between a plurality who responded that they only “tend to believe ” in basic yiddishkeit and a large amount who responded that they have doubts, as well as how many say that yiddishkeit is the most important thing in their life, and how many say that they don’t keep taharas mishpacha fully….check it out. It was taken in 2017 and it paints a pretty ugly picture.
If you want to see where the best of the youth(aside from rabbi shechter’s circle) are headed, read the commentator in YU, an independent student run newspaper which is full of apikorsus and advocation of sin.
Already 15 years ago most MO schools were comfortable discussing having multiple spouses of differing genders in a high school debate stage.
In 2017, the nishma study showed a large amount which were open to gender bender garbage.
It’s just a mirror of progressive goyim. Can you tell me one goyishe value that MO hasn’t taken steps towards?
Lernt, i never said it was a machlokes vetween Der Rov and Rav avigdor Miller. The brisker rov never said that we can destroy the world through using plastics and driving SUVs, or taking trains(he took them all the time)
Saying that gedolim live simple lives and would agree that using plastics is an issue is like saying (and i heard this once) that the reason why gedolim move back and forth during davening is that they’re aware of an Eastern religious idea of… whatever it is) except here it’s worse because we have no proof that they’re even consciously reducing their carbon footprint at all!
If you can find a gadol who says this openly, I’ll happily agree, so please ask around!