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CS – that’s what chasidus, or mussar, or drush,is supposed to do. And it does. But ifa person finds any other part of Torah “dry” afterwards, it’s showing a deficiency in the method which is being used to convey those parts of Torah, and in the unpreparedness of the recipient.
The stories about rav aharon in mishnas reb aharon were told by talmidim and nobody came out and said there were glaring mistakes, and it was published when a LOT of original talmidim, like rav chaim Epstein, rav Meir Hershkowitz, rav laiby dicker, etc….were still active.
I doubt the askanim who arranged the satmar rov’s ticket were aware of what kastner had done to procure that train. The truth only came out later; if they did know, the satmar rov would have exposed it to save yidden.
“You can argue that the deal would have been made anyway so there was no issue with them buying their way in. That is no different than saying the knesset and the state of Israel will be there anyway. Let us do what we can to work with them for the sake of Torah”
If the interaction would be one-off then yes, but we’re talking about being entrenched in it consistently. Big difference.
UJM, that’s not what I meant. I differentiate between inherent qualities/madregos and chosen ones. A talmid chacham is a choice that virtually every jew can make, and it makes them superior to everyone else, as the rambam writes that the tachlis of the world is to serve the talmid chacham.
Regarding a melech, i don’t think that’s a fair comparison – he has an office…i don’t think that makes him even on a higher spiritual madrega in itself. The opposite is true – a king was chosen BECAUSE of his lofty spiritual accomplishments.
Smerel, rav aharon Kotler dealed, in fact, with mafia people to get money to save Jews in Europe. There’s a famous story mentioned in mishnas reb aharon with a mob boss who was so impressed with rav aharon that he didn’t even want his money back, and instead asked for a blessing. Rav aharon couldn’t wish him hatzlacha, because of his criminality, so he bentched him that he should die on his sickbed, and not from being killed. The boss was extremely happy with this blessing, and indeed survived many gunshots, dying at a ripe old age.
Was rav aharon being “mischaber” with the mafia? No. Neither sas rav michoel ber weissmandl when he worked with secularists.
The difference between the above and agudah’s shitah is that joining a government shows your approval thereof,not that agudah actually does approve of it, but they work on laws, committees, meetings, they are literally part of the state. Agudah holds this is ok for their reasons, and satmar says it’s not. That’s the machlokes. It has nothing to do with who you can work for and who you can make deals with to save Jews.
The word “superior” is not appropriate. It implies that one is better by virtue of something that they did not accomplish. Now in terms of yidden/ainom yehudim, the difference is that of absolute substance…not only are they better in every way spiritually, but they are entirly different, as they have a nefesh elokis, imbued with kedushah.
But among klal yisroel, the differences are more in terms of madregos. A Cohen is on a higher madrega in his creation, but that doesn’t make him superior/better, just like malaachim are higher than people, but people can be “better” and greater than malachim by virtue of their choices.
Hashem loves all yidden (at their base, absent their choices) equally; he created some with a higher level, such as kohanim, and neshomos of “tzadikim” that the Tanya is maarich on, but those people can also become reshoim; they have that choice. And in shomayim, a mamzer who sanctifies himself will be higher than a person born from tzadikim who didn’t do much with his life. He’s “better” but the tzadik might still be on a different madrega in some ways.
The ben ish chai has an entire section devoted to hilchos tznius, called chukei noshim, where he mentions a lot of details that people today struggle with, besides the areas that need to be covered. He explains the centrality of tznius too – as does every other sefer that talks about it
See what the chofetz chaim wrote about calamities that befell klal yisroel:
I have said that the main reason for this is that we ourselves are distancing Hashem from us… Everything connected to the horrible thing called “fashion” [a way of dressing which includes anything worn from head to toe for the main purpose of attracting men, may Hashem protect us] brings a person to have sinful thoughts… and it actively nullifies Hashem’s words: “And your camp shall be holy, and there should not be seen amongst you anything, ervas davar, immodest.” And due to our many sins, a great fire has broken out in Hashem’s vineyard in many places because of this terrible “fashion,” because the impure forces become stronger due to this… and therefore the influence and blessing which each person should receive in his dealings has been stopped, and this causes all the troubles and bad things… Therefore there is an obligation upon each and every person to put out this terrible fire and to make sure that in his house, everyone acts according to halacha and not with immodesty.”
Sechel, by your thinking, chasidus shouldn’t be important because it’s not in shulchan aruch. Neither is the idea of a chasidishe rebbe mentioned anywhere in the rishonim.
But those are ikkarim for tou, simply because your rebbe said so – which is fine, except when it comes to defending something your community is lacking in, you turn to something which you yourself don’t hold of when it comes to things you decided are important.
Does shulchan aruch say that giving someone chazir is lifnei iver? Does it have to?
Did you know that nowhere does it say in shulchan aruch that a mechitzah is required in shul?
Quit the hypocrisy.
That women receive punishment for being macshil men is in poskim which talk about lifnei iver – please read halichos bas yisroel, it’s a very good sefer. I don’t have it on me at home, but it’s readily available. It’s also no surprise that shlomo hamelech’s prime representation of the yatzer hora in mishlei is an immodest woman. Just as a source i remember off the top of my head, which i wrote above, is the peleh yoetz, which says that women will be punished first, before the men they were machshil.
As for whether or not women who keep halacha are nevertheless starred at by men, אונס רחמנא פטריה, the rule is that an oness is exempt from punishment. She’s not obligated to stay in the house for that. However to whatever degree she can centralize the home, that’s a fulfillment of kol kevudah, which is partially due to the above, but not limited to it.
Smerel, that’s not hischabrus.
Yankel, if by collaboration you mean joining the government, then no, the satmar rov holds that’s assur.
If you mean on an individual level, like a business partner, then it’s no different than a goy and you can.
If you’re referring to working with them to save jews during the Holocaust, then nobody every said that’s not allowed.
If someone finds any part of hashkofa “dry,” it’s not because of actual chasidishe Torah. It’s because they’ve had sensory overload, like children who find books boring if they watch movies. So if they hear fanciful ideas which don’t really make them feel a need to, say, cover up, and then they learn basic hashkofa about prishus min haarayos, they might find it “dry.”
That’s just another reason not to learn kabalah until you’re ready for it. Even chasidim who say that regular jews can learn it through chasidus are referring to average Jews, like those of us here, who have a basic education. Not someone who has no idea how to read.
Aaq, rashi says pashut pshat in the pasuk refers to noshim. They’re not taught wrong.
Square – are you familiar with שומר פתאים ה”?
Learn some halacha before telling people to do teshuva for drinking soda.
Learn – did you ever read vayoel moshe?
He in no place says not to live in eretz yisroel. He,as you noted, did so, and sent some chasidim there. He was against making mass immigration there or making a state. Huge difference.
“Now of course, learning enough Chassidus on the topic, elevates one to a place where they feel disdainful towards non Jewish fashion, and feel that tznius is the look they are proud to wear, and the other clothing cheapens women and isn’t beautiful at all:)”
Learning yiras shomayim does that too. If chasidus automatically did that for women, why would the community that has the most chasidus study also have one of if not the biggest problems with tznius in klal yisroel (aside from MO)?
CS, why does something need to be in older seforim for it to be valid? Chasidus isn’t in any sefer before 200 years ago. The peleh yoetz was before that.
Halichos bas yisroel is full of sources. Rabbi falk’s isnt – he was writing mainly as an instruction guide, and most women aren’t interested in looking things up. Most women just want to know what to do and what not to do and not he concerned with the sources or even the reasons. I learned this the hard way when i was in shidduchim and afterwards; a simple “yes” or “no” is usually what they want.
The kitzur was written only 130ish years ago. And it was definitely not written for women.
Plus, all jewish women were tznius in those days. You didn’t need halacha shailohs and minimum requirements, because everyone was covered up and no one would dare do otherwise. There was absolutely no “fashion” industry and women didn’t wear clothes that were, to use an expression which somehow became popular among frum women, “flattering.” Take a look at pictures of European and sefardi jewish towns. More tznius than satmar! It was the הלוך ילך, the רוח אפינו – some things are so plainly obvious, so fundamental, that any simple jew knows them. Even the amei haaretz in chazal aren’t criticized for dressing untzius.
You’re defending the indefensible.
And to the point of being machshil others, LH only is machshil others if they believe it, and it’s not something the person walks around doing nonstop. A woman who walks around untzius will be machshil men every second of her life and amass boatloads of sins that will not he attoned for by asking your rebbe for forgiveness or learning his musings.
Coffee, that’s not because of hispaalus, wonderment and awe – it’s because the sun then is at the same location that it was during maysoh bereshis. It’s to remember brias haolam.
Besalel, it is logically deficient, because where does it say that it’s a flaw? Also halevi never said that it’s an actual flaw, chas veshalom, but rather intentionally designed to mirror a flawed human condition – that Hashem made us with flaws is very obvious. That was on purpose, not because of, chas veshalom, any mistake of Hashem.
As to why we don’t make a bracha…my theory is that to make a bracha, there needs to be a חפצא, a tangible, physically reactive phenomenon. The eclipse is merely an alignment; nothing is משתנה in the moon or sun.
A rainbow, one could argue, is also not a cheftza, but the bracha isn’t because of the wondermen, it’s because it’s a reminder of Hashem’s promise to not destroy the world again. That’s why it is a bracha of zocher habris, not oseh maysoh bereshis.
We’re going to wish we did a lot of things differently after moshiach comes.
One thing to note is that chasidishe seforim say that when he comes, he’s going to comfort us, see at our low madregos and say “oy, look at what the galus did to you.”
Those aren’t the only two options.
I argue for the sake of, i hope, kovod shomayim. And i do learn some things along the way.
There are some things I’m not open to, such as the avodah zara of nationalism, feminism, god-in-a-body ideology, internet filters not being important, drafting bochurim, and other things that the gedolim said were off limits.
But other things I’ll consider if they’re not apikorsus according to gedolei yisroel.
Square, the vayoel Moshe deals with this arizal quite extensively. I don’t understand it because I’m not a mekubal. Funny how zionists who dismiss kabalah when it comes to kedushah inyonim and nissim suddenly are very into the arizal..
Sechel, want to know what chasidim think of tznius? Ever walk around Williamsburg? Kiryas yoel? Skver? Tosh? Tznius is THE ikkar by them and they’re stricter than litvishe!
Also, if a girl wants to volunteer – there’s plenty of chessed needed within the frum community, and shomrei Torah umitzvos have priority.
Smerel, that’s sherut leumi in its current form, but it is still obligatory for all citizens without religious exemption. And many sefardi girls have a hard time getting that exemption, especially if they don’t look charedi.
Forced work outside of the home is what the chazon ish was very worried about. And it wasn’t as if it was a machlokes; the gedolei yisroel all said it was yehereg velo yaavor.
Simcha – i agree that pure volunteering isn’t what the chazon ish was concerned with. But you’d need to make sure rhe environment was kosher, which often is not the case.
Bear in mind that compulsory sherut leumi was just the backup plan once the medina saw that the frum would never let their girls into the military. Mizrachi didn’t see that and supported it, which caused a lot of problems for the Torah world, because the frei went and said “why is it good enough for them and not you”
Dofi, it’s published as iggeres hagra. The lashon he writes is that his mother does not need his mussar because she is a tzenuah. In other versions of the letter the text spells out that tznius does for a woman what Torah does for a man, regarding fighting the yatzer hora.
It’s cited in basically every mussar sefer that is aimed at women, including rav shimshon pinkus.
Simcha, the chazon ish and others explained that when a girl is forced – not voluntarily – to leave the reshus of her husband or father, that is “taking” our daughter away and it is in the category of laws which surround giluy arayos.
A father sending his daughter to seminary is voluntary.
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Modern “rabbis” like to say as a ln article of faith that “the obligation of shmiras aynayim is squarely on the shoulders of men” – they repeat it as if it were a pasuk. They say it the same way they repeat ad nauseum a line of “living a modern life within the framework of halacha.”
These are both meaningless sound bytes which have zero logic or mesorah. A 5th grader knows what lifnei iver is. The same 5th grader can read pele yoetz which writes that women take the first punishment if a man is nichshal by looking at them, if they are not dressed according to halacha.
It’s a powerful urge to justify pritzus that leads modern clergymen to spew that line; they will do anything and everything to not admit that their community has a serious problem.
But of course they have no problem chastising the frum for how we supposedly treat goyim and don’t serve in the Israeli army.
My rebbe Rav Belsky said that even Pesach minhagim which are tied to the metzius of pre war Europe, like some of those mentioned above, should be kept, as they are minhag yisroel Torah.
Simcha, the poskim said it’s abizrayhu l’giluy arayos for a girl to be taken from the house of either her father or husband.
You’ll probably dismiss that as outmoded thinking, but i couldn’t care less the gedolei olam who knew more than you and me when they were 5 said so.
The chazon ish learned kol hatorah kulah, including kabalah, which is what chasidus aims to achieve.
He’s not jealous of a man who learned kabalah that was made accessible to a regular person, and certainly not of a child who mouths the words of ideas he has absolutely no shaychus with. For torah she baal peh, you need to understand what you’re learning for it to be a kiyum mitzvah.
“Seems like some have tons of טמטום המח והלב. Maybe eat only lubavitch shchita and chalov yisroel, and things will be clearer. I don’t know what to tell you.”
This is a great example of circular thinking.
Chabad is right, and if you question it, it must be because you’re not following chabads opinions. If you were, you’d see that chabad is right.
When facts and sources fail, just go for the “you’re only saying this because you’re not following a Lubavitch standard”
As it happens, i and almost all other yeshivish people are makpid on cholov Yisroel. I avoid Lubavitch shechitah however, because of the very real possibility that the shochet worships a man as god wrapped in a body.
Gadol, it’s in a letter the Gaon wrote to his daughter
Yankel, i think you’re right. I have yet to encounter a Lubavitcher who yields on any miniscule point if it has anything remotely to do with chabad. edited The debate is more of a show, because they’ve made up their mind already or closed themselves off from any other alternative.
And they wonder when everyone else says they’re cultish.
“if you know aleph teach aleph”
Equals
A guy with a glow in the dark pen leading a group of people on a cliff in pitch dark.
CS – no hilchos tznius in the “classic seforim”? See the sources brought in mishnah berurah 75 s”k2, and all of the sources brought in halichos bas yisroel. It’s literally all over the place.
It’s dealt with mainly regarding ervah l’inyan krias shma and talmud Torah. That’s where the poskim discuss which parts of the body must be covered and give the details you were taught. Elbows, knees, collarbone, etc..
That’s why thw sefer halichos bas yisroel was very important, because he compiled the poskim who discussed the details of tznius, but they were everywhere and needed little chidushim.
Regarding lashon hora, i am referring to details. What is the definition? What are the tenoim for toeles? When can one believe LH and when can you only be concerned about it? These aee things not discussed at all in the rishonim, st least not directly. The chofetz chaim labored greatly to learn this sugya and come to conclusions in halacha.
In tznius, there was no such need for the author of halichos bas yisroel to do that. Read the sefer, even though it was not written by a Lubavitcher..it won’t hurt your worldviiew.
Also, “classic” seforim that discuss the mussar elements of tznius as the mainstay of a woman include menoras hamaor, pele yoetz, and many others. Ths Gaon famously wrote that tznius is for women what Torah is for men.
Some Jews are more equal than others
I also never said that a sinner is an apikores. I said one who claims that a mitzvah isn’t important, or who dismisses chazal and says that what they say are ikkarim aren’t really that important – even if they themselves observe those laws – that’s apikorsus.
Sechel, what did the child swear to? I think you’re referring to a תינוק שנשבה, a captured child. That’s spelled with a ה.
Whether or not all, most or even any secular Jews today are considered tinokos sh’nishbu is a a machlokes. Some say that most are – but that doesn’t mean that they’re good Jews. It means that they won’t burn for their sins.
Where in kiddushin does it say that a person who serves AZ is called a beloved son of Hashem?
A sinner who shechts does not usually render meat treif. Why is that a barometer for what makes a person good? That’s so arbitrary.
It’s a sad day when a person who claims to be a Torah jew can’t use Torah observance to determine what a good Torah jew is. The only issue is that it runs against the brainwashing in chabad.
Christians say you can be a good jew without the mitzvos, because yushke “fulfilled” them.
Conservatives say you can be a good jew without most mitzvos, but you need to keep some.
Reform say you are a good jew no matter what you do as long as you pay your dues to Hadassah/JNF, vote Democrat and support LGBT.
Modern Orthodoz Jews say you’re a good jew as long as you do the above(without much LGBT, just a little bit) and you also need to keep shabbos and kashrus.
Chabad say you’re a good jew if you believe in their rebbe, and keep some mitzvos.
Torah Jews say you’re a good Jew if you keep ALL of the mitzvos to the best of your ability.
Sechel, I’m sure you’d agree someone who’s a kofer in kabalah is a heretic, no? It’s not mentioned there either.
Here we go with the deflection again – the reason why it’s not apikorsus to teach that, for instance, keeping shabbos is a bigger deal than coming late to davening, is because it’s true! But if someone were to say that coming late to davening doesn’t matter, when chazal say it does, then yes, that would be apikorsus too.
My assertion that shluchim say tznius isn’t so important is based on this thread and your statements that it’s not an ikkar. That explains what we see in crown heights whenever outsiders, “snags” like me drive through it and have to keep our eyes open so as to drive safely.
Tznius is the lifestyle of a Jewish woman. An illiterate woman who can’t pronounce tzimtzum but dresses tznius and behaves modestly is infinitely greater than a woman who studies seforim not intended for her but does not commit to serving Hashem by performing her essential mitzvah. Her studies are, in fact, harmful to her.
Yankel – could be the gerrer rebbe allowed it, or it could be there were extenuating circumstances, but either way, rav shach received a lot of criticism from brisk for changing the yeshiva world’s policy
Sechel, if a jew violates a prohibition of tznius, it’s not apikorsus.
If a chabad shliach does so in public and teaches that tznius isn’t very important, then it most certainly is apikorsus.
Mods, please don’t post the part about CS definitely lying about K9 – i found out that there is a way to use it with windows 7. Disregard.
Tznius is not just a crowning midah.
Chazal say when Hashem made Chava, he made every limb of hers swear that it would be tzenuah.
When bilaam wanted to destroy klal yisroel, he knew the only way to overcome Hashems love of the yidden was through something he hated so much that the hatred was greater than this love, and that’s zimah. “The God of these people hates zimah,” he said. (This explanation comes from the chasam sofer)
The very essence of klal yisroel is tznius – this is what made bilaam turn his curse into a bracha, when he saw that the yidden had tents that were made to preserve the privacy of each family.
It isn’t just a nice thing. And I don’t care what the Lubavitcher rebbe said about it – if he erred in it, then i can tell you exactly why he did according to reports that are known in the Yeshiva world, but i will not write about it on here because it’s extremely offensive.
Yankel, the frum parties would only be in the opposition for almost 40 years. That was the ruling of the chazon ish and all of the other gedolim.
Rav shach said in the 80s that this psak no longer applies. Under Menachem begin, things were different. He was sympathetic to frum people and was the closest thing Israel has ever had to a religious prime minister.
What Rav shachs understanding of the differences were is beyond my understanding; i have emunas chachamim that he saw a significant change which permitted joining the government.
But at the time he said you can’t be a full minister. Under rav chaim kanievsky, this was changed too, and yaakov litzman became the first charedi minister. Again, we only follow what the gedolim say
Satmar isn’t responsible for every idiot who quotes them wrongfully. Acknowledging it itself is an issue; they’re not a PR firm. Agudah doesn’t speak out when it’s cast wrongfully in the media either, and neither does mizrachi or zionist organizations. Your request of them is petty.
Also, while they don’t agree with nadler and his people, they also don’t think it’s pikuach nefesh for the US to send arms to Israel. You decided that. They basically believe in shev v’al taaseh; they don’t support the war nor do they support those who are opposed to it.
That’s not only satmar. The rabbonim who backed away from the major israel rally a few months ago also said that demanding things from America is not the way we behave in galus.
Satmar has not lobbied against giving arms to israel.
Formerly pro israel politicians looking to cozy up to the new left in the Democratic world which is anti Israel have used satmar as an excuse.
There definitely are gemaros about tznius details – Brachos 24a, kesuvos 72b, many other places.
The details of lashon hora are far lesa discussed, which precipitated the need for the chofetz chaim to delineate them