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Nom, asserting that fear of govt companies is a mirsas is still a chiddush that the chazon ish does not address, but now i get what you were trying to say… it’s still not clear, and the chazon ish ended with a tz”a.
As for bedieved – it wasn’t easy to get cholov stam in the 1950s when rav moshes children were growing up. That’s a bedieved situation. But even in that case, he personally did not drink it and je said rhat they should not serve it in yeshivos.
Even in the 80s it wasn’t as easy as it is now for most frum people to get cholov yisroel.
As it were, if i lived in a place where it was hard to get cholov yisroel, i would rely on the heter myself.
I also don’t know where you got the idea that islam teaches that god has a body. It doesn’t; this is why the rambam held it was mutar to pretend to be a Muslim, because they believe in the same G-d as we do, essentially. Christians developed the god body thing, they said that god put himself in a body, i.e. yushke r”l.
Muslims say Mohammed was a prophet, and some groups say that Hashem gave over control of parts of creation to him, which is shituf and problematic( i don’t think this was the case in the time of the rambam)
Nom, where else is the baal Shem tov mentioned as teaching to daven to a rebbe r”l? Even the Lubavitcher rebbe admitted he hadn’t seen it in sifrei chasidus, and that it was his own “feeling”
I also don’t know what you’re talking about with lakewood yungeleit. Please provide some non-chabad source for that, as well as his supposed relationship with the seridei aish. If his lomdus is akin to the mitztayer that you’re not mitztayer stuff, then I’ll pass on reading it.
Rav Moshe was.a great baal masbir; ever learn dibros? It’s very clear. Difficult, rigorous, but clear. he’s not the birkas shmuel. Who had a hard time learning with rav moshe?
I don’t know why my post with the sources is not being posted…i found the Gaon, and others
mdd – the mitteler did not admonish people for sleeping in the sukkah. the way everyone else has the story, his statement of “how can I sleep….” was said regarding himself, to explain his own practice of not sleeping in a sukkah.
And parroting the lubavticher rebbe’s kasha/terutz of “chabad is so strict about achilah so why are they not strict about sleeping” – is just a narrative. I’m not beholden to his shakla vetaryah. I view it differently; to me, chabad were no different than the alfei revavos of yidden who did not sleep in a sukkah in europe, either because of the cold, or because their wives weren’t comfortable(both are mentioned in the Rema as heterim)
So if they want to add kabalistic significance to an established heter – chasidim do that all the time, so be it, but no one besides neo-chabad takes kabalah and uses it to overturn halacha.
It wasn’t rav belsky’s shitah himself; I asked him what rav moshe held, and he said that rav moshe held that cholov stam was bedieved. He also said that the story about rav moshe throwing up upon hearing that he accidentally drank cholov stam milk is true.
As to why he had it in his house – thats true, because he was not machmir on his children. Thats why his sons were maikil themselves(rav dovid was, and yblch”t rav reuvain only started being machmir on himself like 10 years ago)
But he does write that yeshivos should not serve it. Very clearly.
There are also teshuvos which indicate that it’s a bedieved, but they’re in chelek 8.
the chazon ish that you quoted says nothing about relying on company regulations. what he says is that, by cheese, you might be able to count the minhag of goyim in a certain medina using plants to make cheese as a tziruf to allow the cheese if the yid sees the goy make the cheese, because in that situation, there’s no Lo Plug in the gezerah of gevinas akum – BUT he only says it as a “din nosen” and ends with a “tzarich iyun” at the end, so he is not paskening lemaysoh.
Ubiq,, I’ll look it up when i get a chance; i remember learning it when we learned the sugya years ago
Tuna, i don’t give much thought to what his status is, because it doesn’t concern me. That’s between him and Hashem. What does concern me are his teachings and his movement, which have veered off of the derech Hatorah in profound ways.
My apologies, i should have been clearer – selling is definitely with a precedent. The issue the Gaon had was with selling it while it remains in the jews house/store.
Doom, maybe not at first, but Hashem intended all of us to be bnei Torah, even those with ADHD, etc..
When i first started learning, i was 17, and couldn’t handle more than like 30 minutes.
Imagine if someone(and there were) convinced me that I wasn’t cut out for learning, and i would have just gone to college(which these people always seem to have patience for…)
I would have been a hollow ignoramus
Da, he’s actually correct. Rav aharon Feldman writes a lot of praise for people with unwanted SSA who live celibate lives devoted to the klal.
He says that they are patur from mitzvas pru urvu, as they are onsim; they cannot in their current state have a family, and if they try without developing at least some interest in women, it will be a disaster.
So yes, a man who does not submit to his urges and certainly does not identify with the open brazen sinners of the world, is a yzadik vekadosh.
Bemekomom omedes**
Re, rogotchover – it was claimed that the mitztayer that you’re not mitztayer that you’re not mitztayer business was from the rogotchover. It isn’t. The Lubavitcher rebbe is quoting him on other ideas mentioned in this letter.
Menachem, he was being “meyashev” why the mitteler could not sleep in a sukkah and why neo chabad doesn’t either. His answer is not brought down anywhere else, it’s the metztayer that you’re not mitztayer stuff, which the mitteler never said. The mitteler made those remarks, but he was not without a normative heter on top of his kabalistic intentions.
This is akin to rav meir shapiros answer as to why rebbes daven late; rebbes say kabalistic reasons, but, says rav Shapiro, they have a valid halachik heter underneath it, namely that s rebbe is oatur from tefilah as he is a toraso umnaso. Same thing here. The mitteler was patur because of the russian cold. He remarked that he couldn’t sleep with the ohr makif there as well, but that on its own is not a halachik heter.
It’s also just a remark. It’s not a teshuva. Chabad makes way too much out of remarks made by gedolim. Sometimes they’re meant kfff the cuff; you need to be a talmid to see this. It’s like when the rashash wrote that a gemara was a kasha on “those who say that there are gulgulim” – he wasn’t doubtful about it, it’s nust shigra dilishna.
Re, shalosh seudos – hayom yom is quoting the Rayatz, but the Rayatz did not write that sefer, as far as i know. Same thijg eith the Lubavitcher rebbe saying things beshem him – you can’t prove the legitimacy of a person by quoting him as a reliable source; מאן לימא לך דבר סמכא הוא
Nom, which gedolim “could not hold their owbmn” against him? Did he have chaverim, yoshvei yeshuva who he handled with in learnijg everyday? Or did he just sit with people enraptured by his words and some mashkeh for hours and hours…
In yeshivos, you develop a reputation as an Ari bechaburah with pilpul chaverim…when did he ever do this?
And no, god in a body is not an old concept. Therr are statements in chazal(mentioned abkve) which are ambiguous, but do not say openly “a rebbe is the essence of god wrapped in a body” which oermits you to pray to him.
Lines about the “face” of Hashem open themselves to boundless interpretation. Here, the Lubavitcher rebbe is issuing s psak halacha oermitting one to pray to a rebbe because the rebbe is god.
Big difference.
And that’s why the chazon jsh said he was a kofer, while he had no problem with the zohar and medrashim.
Nom…when did i mention Iraqi jews?
The chazon ish is recorded in maaseh ish as saying that it’s a good taanah. He didn’t “agree,” with him in psak.
And to those who learn the sugya of anan sahadi, it fits, but it’s still a chidush. And rav moshe writes in many places that, for instance, yeshivos shouldn’t serve jt, because they are meant to teach ideals and keeping away from things which have even a slight doubt as to their kashrus. He also writes that it’s a bedieved in other places.
His sons held that he said it lechatchila – and kovodom bemolomlm omedes; they are totally entitled to that view, but the other talmidim of rav moshe, including more verabi rav Belsky, did not agree with that.
Lake – there were litvishe yidden who did the same. There’s a famous joke in yeshivos; what happens if your shtikel torah is upshlugged – are you mekayam shalosh seudos or not?
But this was done by people who either couldn’t stop learning in the middle of the day, or didn’t have enough food. It wasn’t a widespread, community wide practice; it was yechidim. Chabad decided that no one should wash.
So i misread something in al hatorah – he quotes that paragraph from Wolbe, but not from yechi hamelech; he just cites Wolbe as rhe author OF yechi hamelech. I did a google search on the words wuoted, and haven’t found it yet – i have no idea who wrote the al hatorah, and who knows? Maybe this paragraph was a forgery..
He doesn’t say where it is.But this was in the early 90s – more things have come out since then, like shlomo cunin saying that the Lubavitcher rebbe runs the world(on video, it’s easily accessible) and the rise of people openly saying “boreinu” in their yechi liturgy..
Could be that the author (s) of al hatorah saw the god/body ideology common in chabad circles but couldn’t find any other kpen references to it besides the Lubavitcher rebbes sicha where he says you could pray to a tzadik because he’s the essence lf god wrapped in a body.
Or maybs he’s quoting an obscure pamphlet or book that Wolbe wrote – i have no idea, but i wish he would have sourced it.
I’ll admit that it could be a pious forgery.
Nom, there are times murder is a mitzvah; the desire to kill or be violent is not intrinsically evil, as it has a holy manifestation.
nom, I’ll take the words of the chofetz chaim over your wikipedia information – he writes in tiferes odom that it was most definitely the practice of klal yisroel to have beards, and that it is part of the tzurah of a Jew.
it’s the opposite…it wasn’t until Italian Jews began removing their beards that such a thing ever existed.
while it was not assur (and still is not assur) to use things aside from a razor, that doesnt mean that Jews removed their beards…the rishonim also say that “megalchin” used in the mishnah doesn’t mean to remove a beard, but rather trimming.
Menachem, most jews did not sleep in a sukkah in Europe. The mitteler rebbe had a valid, normal halachik heter not to. The last Lubavitcher rebbe was the one who came up with the mitztayer that you’re not mitztayer that you’re not mitztayer business; and no, there’s no reference to look at tzafnas paneach or other seforim from the rogotchover.
Where is the source for that, and where is the source for not washing for shalosh seudos? It just doesn’t exist. He was mechadesh these things
edited
Asking “whats the source” is aa hateful statement against the Lubavitcher rebbe?
And why is he “the” rebbe?
American; 90% wlof Lithuanian jewry were korbanos, and most of the rest went off the derech. My family is a miuta d’miuta… my father’s father was from a very yeshivishe town called Meretch. He went to America before the war, and was in Switzerland in the very beginning…he then came back to America.
Tuna – criticism of gedolei yisroel from chabad usually just boils down to “sinas chinam,” “why are you soool against chabad, look at all the great things we do(for the sake of our rebbe), or completely fabricated stories about rav shach.
Criticism of neo chabad is just reading the statements of their rabbis and their rebbe and showing how against the Torah it is. Because it’s criticism, not emotional defense mechanisms protecting one’s self from the blithering truth that the “nasi hador” was hardly accepted as such outside of crown heights.
Those calling not selling chometz a chumra… You do realize that it’s not in the gemara, and was introduced relatively recently, to be able to sell it… The Gaon was very, very against it. Why is not relying on the kulah now a chumra?
Raw, what kefira have i expressed? I said i would give my life rather than believe in a rebbe god. How is that kefira? Because denying your rebbe is tantamount to denying, cv”s, Hashem? Because Hashem and the rebbe is the same thing to you r”l?
I’ve learned Tanya; i cherish it, but neo chabad has very little in common with the sefer. The Lubavitcher rebbe wrote in the God body piece that he hasn’t seen it in chasidishe seforim, but it’s what he feels from what he calls his studies of it.
You – where does rav moshe say it’s a chidush?
Counting Street lights as mechitzos, something the matirim use, is most certainly a chidush.
Shu”a holds that scizzors which accomplish essentially the same effect as a razor are allowed(misparayin k’ein taar)
So…no, having a beard is not an obligation in basic halacha
Does the rogotchover write the “metztayer that you’re not mitztayer that you’re not mitztayer that you don’t feel like a certain Rebbe who was uncomfortable over a kabalistic concept”? No, he doesn’t. Because he doesn’t write purim torah. The Lubavitcher rebbe would have to prove to us that the rogotchover said it, merely quoting likutei sichos doesn’t prove anything.
Neville, perhaps that’s true, but it’s important to be mocheh when his rulings are mentioned, because he was previously known as a normative, rabbi Hershel shechter-esque figure. But he isn’t. He is one of the most dangerous rabbis in the world, with the ability to bring in goyim into klal yisroel, which could cast doubt on the entire next generation of non charedi Israelis.
Menachem – you’re mixing up the books that Wolbe wrote. He received a haskama on yechi hamelech, about moshiach in general – but there’s a part of it that rav moshe et al never would jave signed on to, namely where he discusses god body stuff. He “proves” from the gemara about rebbe hillel, that moshiach won’t come, but rather Hashem will redeem us Himself (acc to rashi) that moshiach is the same as god, so the rebbe is god (I’m not kidding).
Lake – we shouldn’t praise any reshoim.
But a mechalel shabos, or a ganav, or even a rotzeach, has not distorter and contorted the tzelem elokim and natural creative state of man. Man has vices and evil urges. But homosexuality is inherently evil, a corruption of the very essence of a person. It isn’t unchecked anger, greed or lust, which have a kosher flip side.
Rav moshe writes, while beijg sympathetic to one who has undesired attraction to men, that it is “lehacis,” and just evil on its own.
It is the opposite of what Hashem programmed the world to function with. It is not a miscalculated middah, it is evil incarnate.
But one who has such an urge and doesn’t sin, is kodesh kedoshim, holier than most people can imagine. It is a great lofty level to rise above such a desire and not sin.
Yechiel, we don’t need moshiach to save us from our travails. We need him to reveal Hashem in the world and end the bitter galus which has distanced us jews, his children, from Him. It has made us exposed to tumah, and has limited our avodah severely. We want moshiach for Hashem’s sake, not our own. That’s where you erred
Chabad would have us walk around thinking instead of the boundless love Hashem has for us, and the feeling of being in His warm embrace….we should focus on the love that their deceased rebbe has for…us….how does he even know we exist? They don’t show niftarim everything in olam haba; only things they are privy to, and family, etc..
The level of being meshtatef Hashem with a human being is on full idolatrous display here folks.
Unless the Lubavitcher rebbe and god are synonymous….
Neville, kabalas hamitzvos is integral to gerus. Knowledge of them isn’t. Eliezer melamed said you could be megayer people who expressed that they have no plans to keep most of the mitzvos, or even believing in the Torah, save for maybe fasting on yom kippur, not eating chazir….like a masorti israeli.
The fact that anything besides torah can make someoke jewish and that his yardstick is a secular jewish state, shows how ingrained nationalism is in his mind, that the state dictates what a jew is! That is disqualifying. And feldheim stopped selling his books after he came out with thus psak.
Sechel – part of how i convince people is to showcase how triggered and emotionally insecure chabadniks get when their religion is challenged.
The rishonim fought christian second-coming ideology tooth and nail. It’s not judaism.
Then again, it’s not the only thing chabad took from Christianity. The idea of a rebbe being god in a body is straight yushke stuff, that god walked among us in a physical form, etc…
If you look at that sefer al hatorah veal hatemurah( it’s on scribd for free) he compares the writings of Christian priests to the Lubavitcher rebbes words, and they’re eerily similar. Take a look; maybe don’t limit your yiddishkeit to one mortal man.
And maybe don’t do mitzvos to please the rebbe, but rather to please Hashem…who is incorporeal and has no division and who nothing is tofes.
Sechel, look at the other threads – it goes against a lot of sources. Notably the rambams criteria for moshiach.
It’s second -coming Christianity nonsense that the rishonim fought wars against; i.e. ramban’s vikuach, the abarbanel, and others
Sechel, have you ever learned a medrash with meforshim?
Sechel – point is that halacha allows and encourages taking tzedaka to learn. I showed you that in plain words of shulchan aruch and rema. You cherry picked one line and omitted what followed it. It was dishonest.
Simcha, eliezer melamed has disqualified himself from being a posek by believing that all a “ger” has to do to be jewish is be as observant as a traditional chiloni Israeli.
His words no longer belong on a torah forum.
Tuna – no amount of chasidus, kabalah, or philosophy, will ever convince me to deviate from the 13 ikkarim, including hisgashmius haboreh r”l or multiplicity r”l.
I would give my life rather than accept those ideas, no matter who says them and how they explain why it’s possible. It’s impossible because it’s heresy, and I don’t get into arguments with people who try to explain why heresy is possible, the same way i wouldn’t argue with someone who says that they can be a good jew and deny that one pasuk in chumash is not from Hashem – logic “a hin and a hehr”, i will never accept it, because i am a yid.
Menachem, look at the meforshim on that medrash rabba – aotz yosef, etc…they all say it isn’t literal, because of all the many places where chazal say that moshe knew everything. That sefer smerel quoted brings a leshem which says that someone who interprets the medrash that way has veered off the path – and that’s a nistar source, too.
No pilpul in the world will turn the rambam against his own words. He says not to look at a mezuzah as a shmirah by itself. Anything else is twisting his words.
Aaq…a kesuva is made to prevent divorce, not in case of it. שלא תהא קל בעיניו להוציאה, that it shouldn’t be light in his eyes to divorce her. It’s also usually in effect for widows. It’s the opposite of a prenup.
Sechel, you should read the next few words of the shu”a and rema…
One should only work a little bit to have what to eat:
ויעשה מלאכה כל יום כדי חייו אם אין לו מה יאכל
And not taking tzedaka? That’s only for a healthy person who is (stress) able to work… But a person who can’t do both, says rabbeinu yonah and rabbeinu yerucham, he may take tzedaka to learn according to all opinions, even the rambam!
The rema continues:
ויש אומרים דאפילו בבריא מותר (בית יוסף בשם תשובת רשב”ץ) ולכן נהגו בכל מקומות ישראל שהרב של עיר יש לו הכנסה וספוק מאנשי העיר כדי שלא יצטרך לעסוק במלאכה
And some hold that even a healthy person can do so… Quoting none other than the beis yosef!
And want to know what the rema paskens like? Read above – that is the minhag in all places of yisroel!!
I guess MO wants to take itself out of the category of “all places of yisroel” and dig up old shitos that are not followed in halacha.
Menachem, a statement made by a 20th century figure is not the same.. To put it mildly, as Chazal. We are maaminim in the words of chazal. Current and recent rabbis need to establish their credentials, and can be disqualified if they are found to have espoused heretical ideas.
Ctl, I’m also sorry to say this, but in deciding not to support torah, and rather prepare your daughters to do so, because of these xheshbonos, you are missing out on the opportunity to share in the reward of their learning as if you did it yourself…yissachar and zevulun.
Is any potential monetary loss worth missing out on that tremendous schar? Isn’t that a worthy investment in itself, to be considered in olam haba as if you spent years and years learning torah be’hasmada?
Smerel, thank you very much for bringing those two works to our attention; I actually had not heard of them. I went through al hatorah and saw things from the Lubavitcher rebbe that i previously was unaware of, like his outlandish statement that a mezuzah is a shmirah without it being a mitzvah – this is something that likely falls under the rambams classification of using a mezuzah like a kamayah, which he says makes one lose their share in olam haba. It’s the mitzvah that is shomer, not the larchment.
The author also shows something else that’s probably kefirah; in likutei sichos, the Lubavitcher rebbe says that Moshe was only taught the klalim of Torah shebaal peh, and not the pratim… because of a kasha….how could he have learned it all in 40 days; I’m shocked at the arrogance of this kasha – it was Hashem teaching! And Moshe was the talmid! What limit on Hashem’s teaching ability can there be? It’s also against open chazals, such as rashi at the beginning of behar, which clearly says that all of Torah shebaal.peh was said at sinai to Moshe.
I haven’t seen the other sefer you quoted yet, but I’m excited.
Even if the marriage does end, your support of a person to learn is something you’ll have forever and ever… it’s not dependent on him being your son in law…sorry i missed that point earlier
Ctl, I understand that you deal with divorces in your line of work, but just as an EMT doesn’t give advice to healthy people about how to spot a heart attack – even though he sees them every day – to too, should a lawyer not view a new marriage in light of the disastrous potential for divorce.
As for clients signing prenuptial agreements, this is not done by the people we’re considering, namely lomdei Torah…for this very reason, because it’s introducing an element of doubt about the marriage before it even starts.
Rav avigdor miller said not to mention the word ‘divorce’ with one’s spouse, even in passing, even when spoken about an unrelated person or event…the word is powerful, and it should not enter the minds of the young couple that such things might happen.
As for why we learn gittin – there are times one must divorce a wife, such as in cases of infidelity. It’s also advised when they’re not having children under certain circumstances. But it’s not meant to be part of normative jewish life; it’s meant to be as rare as the circumstances mentioned above.
Sechel, is this the only קטע of rambam that you’re familiar with? You should at least quote it as the rambam and not the shu”a. Get your misinformation straight.
Might do you well to look at the meforshim on that rambam, too. They say that if we were to pasken like him, torah would have been long forgotten by now.
Or is that something you’d like to see happen? Less people to make you feel inadequate and bother yout conscience while you use the money Hashem gave you on your own purposes and not to support Torah.
Even the rambam allows (and encourages) yissachar and zevulun partnerships, which the average kollel person participates in