AviraDeArah

Aaq, right….im sure the mixed units and treif food really is mekarev people!

The danger of being there, however, might stoke an existential interest…many go off to India or elsewhere to explore the meaning of life, and some are picked up by kiruv people.

But to say that the army is mekarev????!!

Being meshalesh has not been done by klal yisroel in millennia. We follow tosfos on that gemara which says that gemara bavli has all three, and we focus on it.

Yabia, i do – look at population studies on how many Lubavitchers there are in the world… it’s not that much. By contrast, there’s huge growth in the sefardi orthodox population, especially in eretz yisroel, but in the US too.

And what letters, written by whom, from the time of the besht say this?

Maybe they were saying that general lomdim had gaavah issues; that I’ve seen before, but to slander the gedolei olam? Never

Sechel – again, provide a source, and cite rhe words because im tired of looking up your wrong sources, that says that the gaon and tzlach thought they were fine rhe way they were, didn’t have to do teshuva, until the besht came and told them that they do, whereupon they opposed him.

One. Source. I don’t need hakdamos about what tzadikim are. Just give a source or admit you’re wrong.

Yabia, he had influence on Lubavitcher chasidim and secular jews. None of his teachings or rulings spread elsewhere. He met with tons of secular figures, from America and Israel, and was seen by them(and them alone) as a representative of orthodoxy… But he was not seen as such by orthodoxy itself! Modern jews looked to rabbi yoshe ber soloveitchik, chasidim looked to their own rebbes, with certain ones being more outstanding in America, such as satmar, bobov, klosenberg, etc… And litvishe had the gedolim mentioned above.

Da, your rebbe got it from the satmar rov, most likely. But you need to see what he says in context.

Sechel, i don’t have keser shem tov available to me at the moment, but i looked at the tanya you cited…and of course, not even remotely close.

Perek 2 talks about the levels of neshomos of a generation… Doesn’t say that the misnagdim think that they’re ok the way they are.

Perek 29 does talk about “beinonim,” which are what we call tzadikim, who never sin, having to do teshuva all the time and constantly ignite the flames of their avodah, which no one’s arguing with. The tanya isn’t the first to say this; it’s all over chazal and rishonim, places that he himself quotes in that perek. He, again, does not accuse the misnagdim of being stagnant or thinking that they need to do teshuva.

I’d invest time to look at the keser shem tov, but so far in all of our conversations your sources have either been misrepresented or totally missing, so I’m not going to go out of my way just to refute another non existent source… if i happen to come across the sefer, i might look at it…tanya i looked at because i know the sefer and it’s in my living room, so it just took a few minutes of my time.

If you’re interested in making a “kiddush chabad,” you’re not doing a very good job. Defending these narratives you were taught, which are hateful and disrespectful to gedolei yisroel who were not chasidish, only exposes further the hypocrisy of “we love everyone,” that chabad so frequently says.

Sechel…first you brought “sources,” in sdei chemed and abarbanel, which i answered.

Then you had no answer, so you pivoted to another “source,” a kasha…so to speak, on a rambam.

Then i “answered” it, as it were….then you go back to the 2 fake sources as proof that it’s not a chidush.

And around and around we go.

Techias hamaysim is a given, chazal say one who denies it is min hatorah is a kofer… and something the rambam writes extensively about. It’s not a chidush in that sense. And it’s no more of a neis than krias yam suf, which did not change the world forever; it was a one time thing. That’s why techiyas hameisim is not at all a stirah to olam kminhago noheg; the rambam is coming laafukei many midrashim about bread growing on trees, objects saying” today is shabbos” to a would-be violator, and other such examples of a new world order. The rambam holds that those medrashim are not literal. He holds that the world will be the same physically, but why does that mean that individual miracles won’t happen? Of course they could!

Remember, the rambam holds that techias hamaysim is a one-off for tzadikim to be able to see moshiach, something they hoped for all of their lives. Olam haba is not here, according to the rambam, it’s in shomayim. The ramban argues and holds that techias hamaysim is forever, in this world; people will live forever in this world, which will become olam haba. The ramban argues with the rambam on olam kminhago noheg too, and the achronim by and large follow the ramban, especially in light of the zohar and the mekubalim.

Could be that the Lubavitcher rebbe gor confused about the two opinions and asked a kasha on the rambam based on the assumption that techias hamaysim is forever, like the rambans shitah, because that indeed is a shinui. But those are two separate opinions.

In all of the seforim which discuss moshiach, there is no mention of him being from the dead, except for the abarbanel, who holds rhat techias hamaysim can happen first, and whoever moshiach is could very well be from those resurrected, but he does not say that it will be someone held of as moshiach who failed to accomplish his mission.

Again, the rambam disqualifies any candidate who does not fulfill his mission. So yes, it’s alecha lehavi raya, it is upon you to prove otherwise.

This is like someone saying that the avos wore shtreimels. Then someone asks, what’s your proof? The person answers… Do you have proof that they didn’t? Aha! You have no proof, so I’m right!

Sechel, please show me one source in the Gaon, tzlach, rav shlomo eiger, or any of the other strong opponents of chasidus, where they say that “this person came and told us to do teshuva”

Or, cite a source from a chasidishe sefer written at the time, like the toldos, kedushas levi, tanya, etc… Which says that the gedolei yisroel need to do teshuva and that they think they’re perfect the way they are.

I’m not interested in letters or sichos or whatever from contemporary people. Show me one source in the talmidei habesh”t or the misnagdim which says anything like what you’re accusing them of saying.

You’re not familiar with the gadol who saved an entire country from reform, and im the one who needs to learn history?

Seriously?

So….you have a kasha about techias hamaysim being a shinui.

It’s not a kasha. It happens once. The rambam is talking about “yemos hamoshiach,” that in the messianic era, he holds that teva will remain. A one time change does not constitute a different world order.

…and “who says he has to be living,” has got to be the most twisted argument on this thread. A dead messiah is a chidush; it’s a given that moshiach will be a redeemer, and thus alive; to say that he can start, die, and come back to finish, is the novel idea which requires a proof. Of which, there isn’t any.

I love how when faced with an explanation of the sources chabad messianics give, you just pivot to “what about this rambam” – it’s like how christian missionaries bombard you with “proofs,” even as you pick one off after another… they’re going they’ll stump you o one, but in reality they’re all nonsense.

Yeshivos have a mesorah. You’re not aware of that mesorah by your own admission; the way American yeshivos learn is largely from rav aharon. The very slow mahalach was popularized by rav leib mahlin. It works, so they do it, even though many gedolim were opposed. In eretz yisroel it’s different.

Yeshivish means that which emanates from the yeshivos. It means a lifestyle, ideology, and demeanor, and often appearance, which reflects the character of the yeshiva that the person learned in. For girls, it’s the home that they came from and/or aspire to build.

Sechel, one can and should enjoy this world to an extent, in order for it to be an assistance to him lefakayach daato, as the tanya writes about one who eats בשרא שמינא דתורא in order to have a clear head for learning. We have a guf and we learn better when that guf is taken care of. But it’s obviously not something to do all the time… avoidance of pleasures is something that is mentioned in the rambams shvil hazahav; one cannot be turned towards materialism, but neither should he go into asceticism.

Then there’s torah mitoch hadchak, which is another madrega.

Sechel, those attempts at “sources” from the abarbanel and sdei chemed have been thoroughly debunked on the forums here. They say so no such thing.

As for “who decided that moshiach can’t be from the dead” – it’s an open rambam. And don’t tell me he means only if he’s killed, because he writes”if he was not successful to this point, or was killed,” meaning he needs to finish the job in one shot, not do part of it, and then die and return

Re, gemara in chelek; rashi brings two pshatim there. One allows for him potentially to be from the dead, but the sdei chemed -the very source they bring – understands this metaphorically.

Either the rambam holds like the 2nd pshat in rashi, or he paskens not like that opinion at all. None of the nosei keilim mention anything about the gemara in chelek.

The abarbanel, in yeshuos meshicho, simply writes that you shouldn’t be surprised if moshiach js from “those who are revived from the techiya” meaning techias hamaysim happens before bias hamoshiach, and that moshiach himself might be from those who come back. That’s how he understood hachelek.

I am grateful to a messianic chabadsker who alerted me to thos abarbanel, as it further disproved the ideas he espoused.

It also needs to be stressed that tue sefer is all about contrasting yiddishkeit with xtian ideologies and debates, from the ramban etc… if he were agreeing to second coming ideology, that moshiach can reveal himself, die, and come back, which is a cornerstone of Xtian ideology, he definitely would have said so! And it would have caused quite a tumult.

Plus the fact that in 2,000 years of seforim, the messianics can only find 2 mentions of even the concept of moshiach from the maysim, shows how beyond the pale the idea is..if it were simply a gemara mefureshes, wouldn’t the rishonim and achronim bring it across the board? They don’t.

The face of yiddishkeit worldwide was far more influenced by rav hirsch than the Lubavitcher rebbes; all of them, except the baal hatanya, because his psakim were accepted by many, many chasidishe communities.

Sechel, you’ve never heard of rav shamshon refoel Hirsch?

Have you ventured even slightly outside of crown heights, ever?

I feel sorry for you.

Where did the “misnagdim” have a problem with having to do teshuva? And the besh”t was not tue first to say that everyone needs to do teshuva; it’s all over the seforim, including chazal in avos….repent one day before you die, as explained by the bartenura there

rabbeinu yonah is full of such sources

You’re making it out to be as though, chas Veshalom, the Gaon and the Tzlach thought themselves to be tzadikim (they didn’t) and that they were perfect the way they are and had no need to grow, arrogant Lithuanian rabbis..

And then comes the baal shem and says that you need to grow too. And here we were sitting here thinking we’re just great the way we are.

This js how they teach history in chabad bubble world???? Such a superficial minimization of the tzadikei olam, the gaonei hagaonim, gedolim who were ispashtusa demoshe – that zohar is not limited to chasidishe rebbes.

There were never such interactions, because first, the baal shem never met the misnagdim, and more importantly, the tzadikim were always growing, shteiging… there’s a famous story about the Gaon, printed at the end of nefesh hachaim, where he says that at his deathbed, the Gaon lovingly grasped his tzitzis, and said “what s world we live in, where for a few kopekz, one can purchase eternal life.”

Tzadikim ain lahem menuchah…

The chofetz chaim, hardly a chosid, was once seen by a talmid crying. It aas after he did a cheshbok hanefesh(he thought he was alone) and believed himself to be half chayav and half zakai…as chazal say.

How do you have the chutzpah to say such things? Have you ever spent time with a gadol byisroel outside of crown heights? Do you really think that we’re all arrogant and inferior?

Aaq – totally incorrect.

Rabbinic positions are supposed to be passed down, see sefer kaftor veferach; it’s a vestige of malchus. Man malchi, rabbanan, etc..

Aaq, you’re not reading the words. He says the yesh omrim, then he says that that’s the halacha. Then he says lefikach – therefore, since the halacha is that way(which includes anyone), the rav of the city etc…

Rav moshe writes that someone who wants to follow the shitah of not being supported in our time is a baal gaavah. Clear in igros moshe; I’ll get it when i have s chance.

On the rambam itself, the radvaz writes that if we folllwed this shitah, “kvar nishtakach torah myisroel,,” torah would have already been forgotten from yisroel.

It’s not about idealism, it’s about protecting the Torah. And those like you who say to stop supporting Torah are attempting to minimize kovod shomayim, minimize Torah and the development of its chachamim. Why? Gadol hasinah shel amei haaretz…

Mdd, you are correct about the chofetz chaim’s statements.

However your statement about skver lacks context. Rav nachman’s chief opposition (actually, the only outspoken one i believe) was the Shpoler Zaydeh, which Skver comes from. So they don’t learn rav nachmans seforim in Skver. However, I’ve heard from someone impartial (not a skverer or a breslover) that he was counseling a bochur who remarked to the current skverer rebbe in new square that he was drawn to rav nachman, without knowing that skver is historicallly opposed to breslov. The rebbe didn’t tell him not to learn it.

Most historical machlokes between chasidusen have been settled.

Yaerb, it’s not that they say that all life’s answers can be found in rav nachmans seforim. They believe in hiskashrus, but not in the heretical, rebbe-save-me davening to rebbe stuff.

Rather, they believe that when one connects their neshoma to the neshoma of a tzadik through learning his seforim, they are given wisdom and insight into their lives and their issues.

It’s also chutzpah to just dismiss a mahalach and a mesorah off the cuff like that without giving it any analysis or even reading their seforim. Breslov is recognized as a legitimate branch of chasidus, and is wildly successful in helping peolle who feel that they are enslaved to their yatzer hora. Not only that, rav nachmans insights into psychology were so profound and ahead of their time, that a leading Israeli psychologist said that rav nachman was the world’s greatest therapist!

With my talmidim, many times i can identify and give them advice based on what I’ve learned in likutei moharan and other seforim – BUT they’re complicated and you need someone level headed to explain them to you. I had one such person in yeshiva. Rav yaakov neir shcechter is another such example, recognized by the eidah charedis and the world in general as a big tzadik and talmid chacham.

You’d be surprised at how many times I’ve seen a kid change behaviors when he hears a vort from rav nachman; I’m not talking heavenly, lofty ideas; lots of what he and rav nosson write is down to earth. Things about taking it day by day, not being meyaesh…but with depth and meaning, not trite cliches.

As for how their mesorah is passed down, they had rabbonim and manhigin, but none would assume the position of rebbe or have chidushim.

Sechel, the meshech chochma holds that לעולם יעסוק applies even to a person who is not keeping the mitzvos, as long as he’s learning as a Mitzvah, and not just to enjoy chochma etc..

Ujm, great job breaking down the facts. Bravo

Chabad – you’re not a complete jew if you don’t learn chasidus. Our rebbe was bigger than the rambam, because our rebbe learned chasidus. You jews who don’t learn chasidus are holding back the geulah.

Everyone else – you’ve made some pretty big mistakes.

Chabad – sinas chinam!!!

Chabad: all jews are equal!

Also chabad: BTs and gerim can marry each other, but chas veshalom for a Gaza’an to marry the rif raf!

Aaq – rov behemos ksheros; it’s an open chazal