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First of all, ones opinion about Lubavitch isn’t s litmus test of their credentials as a gadol, because it’s very likely that many gedolim simply did not know what was going on in Lubavitch; they held of what they thought Lubavitch was. This happens sometimes.
Secondly, rav miller stopped mentioning the Lubavitcher rebbe as a gadol in his later years, precisely for this reason – more information about neo chabad became known. Rav pam was the same way; for years he said thet rav shach was talking to bnei eretz yisroel and that we shouldn’t be part of it, but in his later years was chozer.
It’s not that they did teshuva, it’s that more information became available and known. This was before the internet; information traveled slowly. The truth about rabbi kook also didn’t come out for decades, with many gedolim defending him simply because they did not know the extent of his nationalistic heretical statements and ideas, such as the frei jews having higher neshomos than the frum, because they build up the land etc..
Nom, kahane was off because he advocated a nationalistic tough jew, never again mindset which gedolim called kefirah, including the chazon ish. He believed the answer to antisemitism is violence and even terrorism. The state department listed his organization as a terrorist entity for a reason. Granted he didn’t go after civilians, but he didn’t care much about what his actions caused.
He supported an ideology “they must go” which is the definition of ethnic cleansing, which would have made israel not only a pariah, but the subject of perhaps an international invasion from western countries who care about civil rights – including the US.
Not to mention how many jews would be killed if forcible expulsions of millions of arabs took place.
He was essentially a rodef in that regard.
Nothing to do with what my rebbeim said. Actually, one of the people i consider to be my rebbe, rav avigdor milller, reminded people that meir kahana was a shomer torah umitzvos, though he argued sharply against his positions. I don’t know if rav miller knew the full extent of what kahanist ideology would bring to the jewish people. We literally could have had another Holocaust if we followed him.
I don’t believe he was killed al kiddush Hashem. He wasn’t killed because he was jewish OR because of mitzvos. He was killed because of his political plans to expel millions of arabs from their jomes. He knew exactly the ire and violence that would come in its wake, and took on the mantle of warrior. He was fighting a nationalistic war, not a religious one. His killing was one militant killing another who was threatening his people’s right to live in their homes.
Why is that dying al kidush Hashem? It’s more like dying al kiddush ha-nationalism.
**that was referring to Meir kahanah. Regarding the Lubavitcher rebbe, i just refer to him as such; i don’t have the qualifications to determine what his personal status was vis a vis his learning ability, and if he meant what he said about god-in-a-body etc…and it doesn’t really concern me what he is – it’s between him and Hashem. What concerns me is how his community, which positions itself as a fixture in the Jewish world, thinks and behaves.
Rav belsky told me that rav moshe gave everyone he spoke with lots of titles in general, because he wanted his psakim to be accepted in a broad audience. It’s not a proof that he held of the Lubavitcher rebbe or thought about him positively or negatively; Lubavitchers harp on the titles a lot…it really doesn’t mean anything.
I don’t call him rabbi either; he may have had smicha, but he was way off…he put jews in danger, and calling him a rabbi gives his ideology an air of legitimacy
Rosh – some pretty grandiose statements you’ve got there.
When’s the last time you stepped foot out of crown heights or kfar chabad?
Menachem, here’s the relevant text:
In our time of hester, anyone can, through their learning, figure out what Hashem wants them to know about their suffering:
מתוך יסודות וסודות התורה שנתגלו לנו ע”י חז”ל ניתן לכל אדם לבחון ולנסות לפתור ענין מאורעותיו ויסוריו וכו’ ומצינו בזה סוגיא ערוכה בסוטה נט י ע”ש היטב ומסופר על הגר”ח מוואלזין זצ”ל שהודיעוהו פעם
And gedolei yisroel see much deeper, into why things happen in the world, again through their yirah and torah:
בכל דור ודור שתל הקב”ה אותם אבירי גדולי ישראל מתוך תורתם השלמה ויראתם הצרופה חנן אותם הקב”ה באותו כח וסגולת רואה ממש הם המגידים לנו את דרכנו אשר הלכנו עליה ופותרים לנו את תכלית היסורים על מה ולמה באו ולעוררנו ולזרזנו לתקן דרכינו ושלא נהיה ח”ו מאותם שנאמר בהם ותלהטהו סביב ולא ידע ותבער בו בו ממש ולא שם על לב
The idea of nevuah in our time is not threatening, it’s just wrong, and a prime example of neo chabad changing the mesorah and general cookiness. Every schmuz that mentioned nevuah that I’ve heard from gedolei yisroel, including those whom I was zocheh to have a relationship with, always have said that we don’t have it nowadays. It’s basic chinuch. So i find it frustrating when people who present themselves as frum lack basic foundations in their Judaism.
Then again, there are foundations more basic to yiddishkeit than this which are up for discussion here, such as corporeality and shituf, so…
Nom, the clarity and even ruach hakodesh that one gets from learning is not nevuah; those are distinct entities. They both are means of accessing divine knowledge, but one is accessible to all and the other simply is not. It’s like how rabbonim are like kings; they share a lot with them and they are “me’in” malchus, but they are not halachikally kings. A talmid chacham is not halachikally a navi.
Damoshe, this was not a chabad source, rather a hesped on the steipler from a rosh yeshiva in eretz yisroel; but it had absolutely no bearing on the conversation.
Nom, we would kill them if we had a beis din..we don’t, so we can’t. Neviim must perform a neis and make predictions. If they don’t, then they’re chayav misa.
If the rashba said he was false, what makes you think the arizal followed him? Because you found some overlap? Edited second time. Next time I can just trash the post, it’s much easier.
I still don’t know who this person was, but i think of he were a major historical figure, there’d be more talk of him and i would have heard something. Plus the neo chabads would have quoted him a lot.
It’s obvious where you get your information from; just copy and paste from the dying pseudo academic blogosphere of people who hate mesorah.
Menachem, it’s hard to describe… you’d just have to be there; not just there, shomer shabbos, a few blocks away…these people can be seen all over boro park too.
Menachem, i try to give people the benefit of the doubt and not assume that they are being deceitful. But what you wrote from that sefer is completely inaccurate and misleading.
The maspid says that in our time, THROUGH THEIR TORAH the gedolim are able to function similarly to neviim and explain world events, and see things deeply like the neviim did with nevuah. In this way, the yesod of nevuah remains in klal yisroel, for it is eternal. But it is not nevuah itself. It’s like how chazal say that a chacham is adif m’navi, because the chacham can access the dvar Hashem whenever he wants, and a Navi only can get it when Hashem talks to him.
Nom, i said i wasn’t sure if following rashis pshat would be kefirah – i didn’t say it was or wasn’t. The chassm sofer says it is – so fine. Thanks for the source.
As for mekubalim, I don’t think you’re a mekubal. Mekubalim are not on the internet and they don’t believe that atheism is kosher as long as you keep the mitzvos.
As for what the rishonim say about nevuah, there are different facets and different opinions; so what? And i am speaking about ko amar Hashem so much because that and words like it are definitive nevuos. Nobody uses terminology like that or says that Hashem spoke to them.
I don’t believe you’re qualified to learn eitz chaim in any meaningful way because you’re not a talmid chacham of that stature, and neither am I. I also don’t know about this unnamed individual you say was believed to be a navi – who is he, what did he say, and what was said about him? Was he a shoteh? Nevuah can be transmitted through shotim.
Here are some sources which indicate that nevuah has ended.
Meforshim on malachi:
Mahari kara and malbim on 3:22, ibn ezra on the first pasuk, abarbanel also on that pasuk.
Avos D’Rebbe Nosson 47 says it stopped because of certain aveiros.
Radak on chaggai 2:5
pesikta Rabbasi 35
Maharsha on Yoma 9b, says nevuah stoppped because jews didn’t go back to EY when they had the chance.
Seder olam rabba 30 says that nevuah stopped by Alexander the great.
Rav tzadok hakohen in Resisei Laylah, 81b says that nevuah stopped when avodah zara ended, same as the gaon i mentioned above.
Michtav meliyahu chelek 3 pages 277–278
It’s not “what you heard in school”
Most things that are commonly taught in yeshivos are true. Rebbeim know things..there is a mesorah which you seem to want to undermine at every chance you get.
As for sukkah…i have nothing against chabad as a concept. I’ve outlined my reasons for being against divergent elements of neo chabad, some of which you agree with. They present a danger to mesorah and yiddishkeit, and almost the entire yeshiva world recognizes that.
Nom, if mekubalim have experienced nevuah, they would he obligated in halacha to reveal it, as kovesh nevuaso is totally assur. And since the Arizal never said ko amar Hashem or the like, it’s clear that he was not a Navi.
I have no idea what the eitz chaim says, but it’s probably academic; these are the steps a Navi would take, and I’m sure there are spiritual benefits to such things, snd madregos which are nogaya for holy jews, but like i keep saying – no one has ever said “i received a nevuah” or anything remotely similar to the way a navi expresses himself.
At a certain point it just becomes amusing, like when you hear what the colorful characters who hang out at amnons pizza and similar places have to say
Menachem, you’re misquoting the gemara about rebbe hillel; he doesn’t say that Hashem will redeem them, he says only “ain moshiach ba lyisroel,” moshiach will not come. Rashi says that he means that Hashem will redeem them Himself, but many understood rebbe hillel literally, and that’s what we pasken to be kefirah. I don’t know if it’s kefirah to follow rebbe hillel according to rashis pshat, but nevertheless the gemara says he was wrong, and that Hashem should forgive him (rebbe hillel) for saying that.
Nom, whose seforim do we have on our bookshelves (or rather, the yeshiva worlds bookshelves; edited) which say that Hashem spoke to them? Are you referring to the giluyim of the Arizal? He learned things from shomayim, from malachim, so did the shulchan aruch; that’s not nevuah.
Rav avigdor miller writes that even the early christians were terrified of using the phrase “ko amar Hashem,” so much so that it does not appear in the new testament. Yet chabad had less fear of that concept than they do!
Re, names and appellations; i was not aware of the baalei tosfos calling each other that. I think it is just a praise – rabbeinu tam never says the words ko amar Hashem, or that Hashem told him something, or that he had a prophetic vision.
Re, the Lubavitcher rebbes “prophecies.” The CIA said that israel would win in “around a week,” which is why the satmar rov said that “if the 6 day war was a miracle, Johnson was a navi!” Maybe the Lubavitcher rebbe overheard someone talking about Israel’s vast air force advantage, etc…who knows.
I love it when gematrios are used as….”proofs” to things in chabad. Want to know how many christian/yushke gematrios there are throughout tanach? The missionaries love this stuff.
Outside of chabad, genatrios were never, ever meant to be a proof to anything. They augment what we know already; they’re hints to things, hence the name remazim. no one ever tried to prove anything with a gematriah before.
770 is also gematriah “bais nachash.” I am in no way saying that the Lubavitcher rebbe was such – i am merely saying that gematrios can potentially be manipulated and skewed to mean anything. But they’re a chelek of Torah for us to see a deeper meaning of things we already know.
No one has addressed the gemara i quoted in bava basra which says that after the churban, nevuah was taken from neviim and given to katanim and shotim.
Da, that is precisely the gemara in Sanhedrin under discussion; it uses the term ruach hakodesh, but it clearly means nevuah and is thus understood by both its context and the meforshim. It says “after chaggai zecharya and malachi died, batla ruach hakodesh” – they were neviim, not nust baalei ruach hakodesh. Look at the rishonim there.
But you’re right that no one today has the kind kf ruach hakodesh that applies to kesuvim, like mishlei, tehillim, etc… which were written in ruach hakodesh. Our ruach hakodesh means that either our tzadikim are made privy to things in shomayim or that we are mechaven to the amita shel Torah with the holy thoughts Hashem puts in our heads.
Evidently Hashem cares a lot about words and titles, because if a navi says something in the name of Hashem – even if it’s innocuous – and Hashem didn’t say it, he is chayav misa. He is killed. When he comes before beis din and says “eh, who cares what word I use… Hashem said, my inner spirit says, what’s the difference, as long as I’m getting jews to do the right thing, why do you get so hung up on terminology?
Wanf to know what happens to him? He gets “hung” up on a tree.
Nom…the chozeh of lublin never said “ko amar Hashem,” nor did he say he was a navi. He saw things in ruach hakodesh like tons of others.
You’re trying to make this into semantics. Nevuah is a definite phenomenon. It isn’t poetry like maskilim call it. It isn’t divine inspiration or ruach hakodesh. The rambam is clear about what nevuah is. Now i ask again, has anyone in the past 2000 years said “ko amar Hashem”, or any other such phrase, have they claimed to receive a direct communication from Hashem Himself? No. They have not. You’re trying awfully hard to avoid the idea that nevuah is no longer available today – why is that? Is it affinity for chabad? I don’t know why you’re beijg stubborn on this issue and marshalling unrelated sources, deflecting proofs by whisking away terminology, reframing the discussion into one of baalei mofsim and ruach hakodesh who see what is going on naachurei hapargod
Why not just admit it when someone has a strong taanah? It’s not that hard.
Mdd – if a chasidishe rebbe is able to be melamed zchus on yidden and save more or even everyone; why not? I have no idea if it works that way, but far be it from me to want to deprive jews, reshoim or not, from geulah.
Nom, the gemara in Sanhedrin uses the term ruach hakodesh as well, but it is clearly referring to nevuah, because of the juxtaposition with chaggai zecharya and malachi, who were neviim.
Ruach hakodesh itself was not batul, as the divrei chaim wrote in the teshuva you quoted, so much so that to doubt that gedolei yisroel have ruach hakodesh in every generation is apikorsus, the divrei chaim said.
Nevuah is ko amar Hashem. The words of Hashem communicated to a person. Ruach hakodesh is either what Hashem puts into your head, or being mechaven to the emes in learning.
Your sources have basically no bearing on nevuah – the rishonim on Sanhedrin clearly identify ruach hakodesh as referring to nevuah; this should go without saying.
The gemara also says that once nevuah was lost it was given to katanim and shotim – another proof that it is gone. Bava basra 12a, statement from rebbe yochanan “nevuah was TAKEN from the neviim and given to katanim and shotim”
I forgot to mention that gemara too.
Again – let’s find one case where a tanna, amora, rishon, or acharon calls someone a bonafide navi. You won’t.
So unless the Lubavitcher rebbe can summon rishonim or achronim who learn the gemara differently, any other arguments amount to the 100 Kal vechomers to be metaher a sheretz. I simply don’t care. The meforshim on the gemara don’t say anything ambiguous about it.
Menachem, please provide one person called a navi in a serious context(not the raavads insult of the rambam calling his words divrei nevuah sarcastically) and I’ll take the idea seriously. What we find poskim sometimes doing is euphemisticly calling anotjer gadol’s writings nevuah because they can’t find a source for it in fhazal; the raavad used it sarcastically, they use it respectfully, but it’s clear that that’s their intention.
Find one place where rhe rishonim say “so and so was a navi” or “this person heard the dvar Hashem” or the like – you won’t find it. Anywhere.
As for the mishi….batla….those are discussed. They mean that the highest manifestation of anivus, yirah, etc…are gone. That’s because it’s obvious that one can fear Hashem in any time and place; those gemaras aren’t referring to a specific phenomenon. Nevuah is a phenomenon which chazal are saying no longer happens. The rishonim do not say on that gemara “nevuah isn’t so common now,” it’s been taken as a given by the rishonim and achronim for 2000 years. Universally.
Qwert, i have to take issue with some other things which you’re saying, which i believe to be in error. The “chamushim” which chazal darshen as being 1/5(aside from the pshat of “armed”) is not universally agreed upon. There were different midrashim. How that will work when moshiach comes isn’t simple – we need to go back to that medrash and figure out why in fact so many were not zocheh to be redeemed.. it’s because they didn’t want it; they were comfortable the way they were. So if klal yisroel is the same way, the same thing will happen. if more jews are metzapej l’yeshuah, less will be left behind.
Re, chasidim thinking that their rebbe is “moshe” – this has a source, sort of. The zohar says that every gadol is ispashtusa demoshe in every generation; the continuation, the spiritual powers Moshe had were passed down from generation to generation. Chazal call each other Moshe when they say a sharp thing, etc…so it’s not as if chabad invented the idea. Chabad did, however, invent the idea that only THEIR rebbe is like that and they extended it to silly things like thinking that their rebbe was bigger than the rambam because the latter didn’t have access to chasidus.
Re, nevuah; let’s also be clear that a nevi sheker, even if he just tells you to keep the Torah, is chayav misah. This is a big deal. It’s not just a hashkofa disagreement. What the Lubavitcher rebbe is saying can land one in an aveirah for which the punishment is death.
I think it’s prudent to abide by the pashtus of chazal and mesorah in such a case..if a yungerman had a chidush about shabbos, if he went and told others to be meikil on a chiyuv misa….i shudder to think of the consequences. These are very serious inyonim.
And horaya, the Gaon and ramchal never said things which were against chazal. Others did, including the Lubavitcher rebbe.
Re, Gaon; yes he did learn nistar young. So did the ramchal; they were the exception, and were able to do so without being damaged by it. Most people who go into kabalah early or before they’re ready have serious problems. This is an example of the exception proving the rule.
Why do you think thus takanah was made? It was because people were going wonky over kabalah that they learned before being ready. This jncluded shabsai tzvi.
Menachem, the gemara isn’t a kasha on the Lubavitcher rebbe. Anyone who says that there is nevuah – you can say it’s from kabalah, or from 100 kal.vechomers to be metaher a sheretz – the gemara is the gemara. The rishonim don’t take the gemara out of its pashtus. It’s not a “kasha” on the Lubavitcher rebbe; the Lubavitcher rebbe is saying something against not only a gemara, but a clear mesorah from chazal until today.
Again, has any singular individual besides shabsai tzvi and nasan from gaza claimed to be a navi since the churban? At all…anyone?
So the Lubavitcher rebbes claims are against all of that. It’s not cowardice, just lack of interest, and i like to keep my head uncluttered by divergent opinions, this includes neo Lubavitch, religious zionism, ortho-maskilim, modern orthodoxy, fringe breslov, and other divergent groups. My head isn’t a reshus horabim, i value my sechel and my hashkofos.
Qwert – i think you’re misunderstanding me. There’s no contradiction between what i said yesterday and today. When i said that chabad will ultimately embrace the 99% of the Lubavitcher rebbes teachings which are not problematic, i am referring to things which are avodah zara or apikorsus related. Thinfs which can take a person out of klal yisroel. They’ll still have weird stuff like what’s being discussed here, but believing that there can be nevuah nowadays is not, at least i don’t think, apikorsus. It’s just a mistake. Lots kf groups have mistakes; it doesn’t make them invalid and chutz lemachaneh. There are only a couple of things which the Lubavitcher rebbe said/wrote which are assur to repeat, god-in-a-body being the chief example.
Menachem, i heard it quoted often in yeshiva, notably from a rebbe of mine who was a belzer chossid. I looked around online and found people who have heard it too but similarly can’t find a source for it.
Coffee, you’re referring to the braisoh of rebbe pinchas ben yair, which the mesilas yeshorim is based on. It says that תורה מביאה לידי זהירות, זהירות מביאה לידי זריזות, זריזות מביאה לידי נקיות, נקיות מביאה לידי פרישות, פרישות מביאה לידי טהרה, טהרה מביאה לידי חסידות, חסידות מביאה לידי ענוה, ענוה מביאה לידי יראת חטא, יראת חטא מביאה לידי קדושה, קדושה מביאה לידי רוח הקדש, רוח הקדש מביאה לידי תחית המתים”
Torah leads to all of the above, and ruach hakodesh is still something we have – that’s not nevuah. The braisoh does not mention nevuah, and ends with techias hamaysim, which is something any amora was capable of according to the Arizal.
Re, Sanhedrin; nomesorah said that there is no such gemara. I said that there is and cited it – why do you take that as “quoting a random line”?
One poster correctly said that chazal say that nevuah ended by the churban, another said that there is no such gemara, and I said that there is. Has the Lubavitcher rebbe’s novel opinions so defined your way of thinking that you can’t distinguish between chidush and pashtus/the way every other section of klal yisroel thinks? There is literally no other group of jews who think nevuah is a thing in our time…. except some people who are into rabbi kook, i think, who called….. meir kahanah(sic!!!) a navi. But I don’t think that rabbi meant it as literally as the Lubavitcher rebbe anyways.
Menachem, when someone makes a claim that’s against the mesorah and uses chasidus as a means to do so, I’m sorry but I’m just not interested. You can use kabalah to make claims of all sorts of things, which is why the Lubavitcher rebbe would have benefitted from not studying it until the age of 40 after mastering shas and poskim, as proscribed by the poskim. His errors are largely due to premature exposure to kabalah, and not just tanya etc..
It’s all over rishonim and achronim that we have no nevuah now. If the only way you can prove something is with kabalah, then likely you’re running the risk of, in the words of the tzemach tzedek, burning nigleh with nistar. He said that hisnagdus prevented chasidishe rebbes from veering off the derech due to that chashash, which we see manifested in the Lubavitcher rebbe’s hashkofos, which were unprecedented and novel….to put it nicely.
Quoting a gemara is not lime quoting one line of a sefer out of context; it’s a naamar chazal. Maamarei chazal are independently significant, but here it’s not out of any context, it’s just stama d’shmaatsa. It’s not a chidush to say that there’s no nevuah, since no one has ever claimed to be a navi since chaggai zecharya and malachi – not one tanna, amora, gaon, rishon, or acharon.
Nom – i don’t know what you consider to be a “real” chasidishe sefer. Is meor aynayim less chasidish than the tanya? The only major sefer that i haven’t touched is the toldos, because one of my rebbeim told me not to. He said it can be more confusing than the others. Some seforim i don’t understand very well, including much of likutei moharan and the noam elimelech; some parts i get, others i don’t, and just move on. But it’s been a while since I’ve been into chasidus in any case; this was mainly in my bochurishe days. But i value what chasidus has done for me and for countless yiden throughout history.
Nevuah stopped with chaggai zecharya and malachi – Sanhedrin 11a. It means it’s gone. It will return when moshiach comes.
There’s a famous Gaon which says that nevuah was taken to even the “zeh leumas zeh” after the YH for avodah zara was nisbatel through the anshei kenesses hagedolah; he writes it on seder olam perek 30, note 12
I don’t have the time to learn “every” sefer that my rebbeim hold of, because my priority is to learn shas and poskim; would i pick up a sefer written by a gadol who i know nothing about? Sure! I’ve xone that at shul sometimes… something I’ll look at bein gavra legavra, or stam when I’m in a new beis medrash and curious about what seforim they have.
But i don’t need to read seforim written by people i don’t hold of; not just the Lubavitcher rebbe… There’s a pretty long list of people who write seforim who i have no interest in.
Qwert, it seems that you are caught in a state where if someone is wrong about some things, they have no valuable things to offer and they can’t be right about certain details or inyonim. The chazir thing has zero to do with chabad, as it’s in chazal; you will get a lot more respect and people will listen to you if you just admit when you’re wrong or misinformed about something – i believe it’s ridiculous to think that the Lubavitcher rebbe, or any other person who is not alive(or alive, since no one has accomplished the criteria yet) to be moshiach, but that doesn’t have anything to do with the chazir being kosher when moshiach in fact comes.
Lubavitchers, to their credit, have not changed halacha to match lost-moshiach times, at least not yet. They don’t bring karbonos, or do anything else that we need to wait for moshiach to allow, and that includes eating chazir – the fact that its siman hasn’t changed is obvious. Now will their movement go full shabsai tzvi and change halacha, like saying shem hameforash? Who knows. I’m just relaying what the facts on the ground are at this time.
It’s my personal opinion that chabad will soon splinter into two groups; those who accept both messianic and elohistic teachings, and those who go back to old school chasidus, brushing off god-in-a-body as just something they don’t understand, and taking the rest of their rebbes teachings, 99% of which are not problematic in yiddishkeit.
But above all, keep it civil; no one’s changing their mind from ranting. The same way Lubavitchers who go on and on about how misguided and inferior they think litvaks are doesn’t change a
– and only strengthens – how we thinkI’m not “defending” the Lubavitcher rebbe; I look at every individual issue, and weigh in based on my knowledge and logic. So i firmly disagree with the Lubavitcher rebbes opinions on sukkah, tefilin, and other things that have been discussed here over and over again, as well of course his messianic intimations, but i have no issue with his toras on other matters…i still choose not to learn them regularly because my rebbeim did not hold him to be a gadol byisroel warranting such.
This was a machlokes between chasidishe rebbes early on. The baal hatanya was against it, but relented after many chasidim begged for it. Others advocated it outright.
As a source, the mishnah says that when one learns Torah properly, they have “ruach aitzah,” a spirit of advice.
Chazal also talk about how to invest money; putting a third in movable property, etc… So if chazal are giving you advice on how to be successful in business, it seems that this is something in the purview of a tzadik/rebbe/rosh Yeshiva
But everyone agrees on the importance of having a rebbe for life decisions, such as when and how to go to work, college, shiduchim, etc..
There’s a famous chakirah in yeshivos if the kosher simanim are a cause or a sign; meaning if a cow is born without split hooves, is it still kosher? Do the 2 simanim cause the animal to be kosher, or are they merely signs of a kosher species, but whatever happens in individual animals is irrelevant.
The future taharah of the chazir implies that the simanim are causes, not signs.
Qwert, i believe it’s an arizall or a zohar that writes that the chazir will chew its cud when moshiach comes. The Torah doesn’t change cv”s, it’s the chazir that changes into a kosher animal.
Qwert, plenty of the anti messianic and/or anti neo chabad posters are present; there’s no shortage of it. Almost everything i post gets approved; if something isn’t, it’s usually pretty offensive and personal
Ujm, there is at least one posek(who happened to be chasidishe) who held that messianic Lubavitchers are apikorsim; that’s Rav menasheh klein, as i mentioned above.
But I haven’t heard anyone else say that. Everyone else I’ve heard from just thinks they’re meshugoim.
But the messianism is nothing compared to the deification issue, and it’s only getting worse.
Menachem, it wasn’t in the 80s that the god-in-a-body stuff became an issue; the chazon ish said it was avodah zara in the 50s.
Being called names of Hashem is not controversial; it’s like the king putting his crown on you as a symbol. There are other explanations. Same with the osios. No one is saying that the rebbe is Hashem.
Tzadikim can be rofeh cholim and mechayeh meisim; what’s your point? We still don’t daven to them or thibk that they can do so independently.
The zohar is obviously interpreted, as is chelek eloka mimaal; a jew isn’t god; they have a godly soul. Like a spark from a flame.
However the Lubavitcher rebbe wrote that one can pray at the kever of a tzadik because he is praying to god, because the tzadik os god wrapped in a body. Not much room for reinterpretation or allegorizing; he’s qualifying a halachik issue by saying that the rebbe is god, so you can pray to him.
There’s a huge difference between that elongated piece and the quotes you mentioned, which all refer to status and chashivus.
Nom, that’s not true. Chazal talk about toras eretz yisroel in several places, aside from the mitzvos (and averos) that occur there being on a higher level in general.
That being said, some learn better in chutz laaretz, including myself; there are fewer distractions here, less drama, easier to get by financially, etc… nothing about the land itself, just the current lifestyle that is necessary there at this time isn’t for everyone.
There is an opinion that messianic Lubavitchers are complete apikorsim, which is that of rav menasheh klein in a teshuva.
From what I’ve seen he’s the only posek I’ve seen who says that; rav belsky said that they’re just meshugoim, and that one shouldn’t rely on them due to mental incompetence, but not that they are pasul for anything due to their beliefs.
Elohisten, including those who believe in god-in-a-body ideology, however, are ovdei avodah zara and are pasul for everything. Indeed, he told me that the OU checks every Lubavitcher shochet to see if they are in this category.
Ujm, rav moshe held that a secular will is fully valid in halacha; even the RCA beis din does not follow this psak.
Yitzchok, firstly, shalom uvracha! I went through a very similar transition as you, except I was coming from an MO high school setting, and not a hesder yeshiva.
What you’ll find in yeshivos is that when people learn, they are as the gemara says “they start out as enemies but end as beloved friends,” the passion and fire of milchamta shel Torah in no way is personal or indicative of a middos problem. As you saw, the bochenb was very nice to you before and after
But in learning, you’re going to have to be ruthless; not “to” other people, but “at” them, because you’re trying to figure out the emes, whether your svara is right or wrong, and that is forged only in the fire of rischa deoraysoh.
But the bonds you build with your chavrusos and members of your chabura/shiur are indescribable; I’m still close friends with chavrusos i had 17 years ago – Torah connects you on a level that’s deeper than anything else.