AviraDeArah

Nom, do you get your history from followers of rabbi kook who aggrandize every mizrachi rabbi and idolize Ben Gurion as a Jewish hero? Because most of my rebbeim were litvishe and learned from litvishe gedolim, and none of them thought highly of reines. Some shied away from talking about rabbi kook, but didn’t think he was the sort of gadol hador you make him out to be.

If reines was so big, why is he not mentioned by the chofetz chaim, rav chaim ozer, or other litvishe gedolim at all?

Km – Reading things online doesn’t make you non-brainwashed. If does undo a good chinuch, which it sounds like you received, only to have it damaged by reading blogs from self professed academics without you yourself having the ability to look into the sources themselves.

If you want to use the term “rabbi” for anyone at any time who received smicha, then you should use it for mordechai kaplan too.

Mendelssohn wrote that tehilim is “bad poetry,” as per the actual research of rav shimon schwab, who decided to investigate mendelssohn himself, having heard different versions of his alleged personal piety.

The issue surrounding mendelssohn had little to do with secular studies, as this was common in other countries, like Italy. The issue was reform, change. He wanted to change things. He said that the Torah world needs to accommodate changing times by leaving the way we were taught. He said that mingling with non jews is good for us, against what chazal say.

His desire to abandon yiddishkeit wholesale is evidenced by his talmidim doing so very shortly after his death.

Why do i care what’s written on his matzeiva? The damage he’s done to klal yisroel is still felt today, and people who lead others astray don’t have much to worry about in terms of their matzeiva; they almost certainly won’t be needing it for its given purpose.

Km, secular studies was advocated way before moses Mendelssohn, who you for some reason call rabbi.

The ramchal says to teach children secular wisdom, and the Gaon says that “to the extent one is missing in secular chochma, that is the extent he will be missing in Torah”

The rishonim advocated it as well, including the rambam who says that studying teva brings to love of Hashem. The chovos halevavos implies that it was common for yidden to have secular books as well.

This is all predicated on the assumption that nothing in the books is apikorsus. Modern orthodoxy allows reading apikorsus to a large degree in the interest of open mindedness, depending on how modern they are and how not Orthodox they are.

Rav hirsch repudiated reform and the likes of mendelssohn.

You’re vastly overstating mendelssohns reach; he had his circle of naskilim, but klal yisroel were not moved by him very much, and in later years his books woild fall into obscurity, preserved mostly by bloggers who are obsessed with deviant jewish figures.

For the record, shadal had a bigger impact on jewry than mendelssohn, and he came earlier. He influenced Italian jewry towards secular things, and had some ideas which were apikorsus, but he was still not as divergent as mendelssohn.

Ruby schron is a famous gvir, why does anyone care that he is said to have gone to a pesach hotel? And to be dan lekaf zchus, i imagine most people don’t use the television in the room at these places.

Sechel, lots of gedolim write things that can be misunderstood and require a mesorah from their talmidim to understand. You’d be the first to say that god-in-a-body needs to be understood, supposedly, by people who understand it.

Rav Belsky was close to rav moshe and got shimush from him. I trust his understanding of rav moshe, and it’s the same reason why rav Moshe grew long payos…it was with an honest appraisal of his ability as a posek and a belief that American jewry needed a competent posek, amid a lot of rabbis who were ruining yiddishkeit or who were quasi conservative. That’s emes; truth is nore than uncle moishy songs about never telling a lie. Same way chazal say that we need to praise even an ugly kallah; that’s emes to Hashem.

Mdd, if you think saying “i headed from someone who heard from someone” is going to “make me think,” then i don’t know what to tell you.

But as i said, I’ll look into the tosfos and the gemara you are citing about eisav(which has no bearing on the chazon ish, since eisav was definitely “achar tochacha”)

Where does the chofetz chaim argue with the chazon ish? He also wrote his sefer at a different time, back when most jews were frum. When the chazon ish said his statement, most jews were no longer frum and society had changed a lot.

Da, those quotes all seem to agree rhat there is value in Secular studies on its own, it coexists separate from Torah, even though Torah is higher.

Torah isn’t higher. Hashem made the world from the Torah. It is the only thing valuable to Hashem and to us.

Rav hirsch looked at secular jews studies as a handmaid of the Torah, because he was frum. MO largely os guilty of ascribing something value outside of Torah, and this is akin to shituf.

Mdd, it might be predictable, but it’s what the vast majority of gedolim will tell you if you ask the shailoh. You’re quoting a lot of 2nd hand information; i advise you to ask gedolei yisroel if the halacha lemaysoh follows the chazon ish. I highly doubt that rav elyashiv told someone to celebrate a mumars death, but if he did, what was the case? Was he perhaps a former rosh kolel who went off the derech and tried to convince others to do so?(it’s happened…) Or maybe a guy in a black hat who believes in transing young people, like a former kiruv rabbi turned walking abomination, who lures young people in BMG?

There are people who i think even the chazon ish would agree are in that category. I’d celebrate if either of the above g’pagered.

I don’t remember tosfos on the gemara; will check bl”n.

Yaskov, what makes you modern and not just a talmid of rav hirsch?

Mdd, i was responding in the context of the “velts vort” about victims of the Holocaust, that they and other martyrs go straight to olam haba, regardless of their past. Of course there’s a lot in between eternal damnation, which is exceedingly rare, and being mezuman l’olam haba – 99% of people are in that middle category.

It should be noted that the chazon ish writes that the mitzvah of hating reshoim is not applicable in our time, because no one can be fully considered as “achar tochacha,” that he has received adequate tochacha, and is a full fledged maizid. As known, the chazon ish fought the zionist apikorsim leaders for decades and did not treat them with kid gloves.

The gemara says that rebbe meir originally davened for reshoim to die, until bruriah told him yitamu chataim velo chotim; he then davened for them to do teshuva. How does that shtim with v’stah Elokim…? Great kasha, but when we don’t take casual readings of pesukim over clear gemaros. Who was the pasuk referring to? I don’t know.

Re, mumar, shiva, etc…again, we don’t find gedolim advocating this practice in our time. Even the family of people who commit suicide are, as far as I’ve heard, told to sit shiva – I’ve heard different shitos on this, but i have never heard of a posek telling people to celebrate as we once did.

Yungerman, while some out of town communities might not have the same issues with gashmius, they are still far, far away from Lakewood in overall Torah learning and shmiras hamitzvos. There’s not really any TV, unfiltered Internet, pritzus, gender mingling, etc… It’s still the most Torah oriented place in the country, with tens of thousands of people living meticulously according to dikdukei halacha.

I should mention that the poskim i quoted say to say elokai netzur quietly.

Square, please read my post. There’s nothing in the sources you bring which contradicts it – rav hirsch wasn’t that much of a chidush in principle, because rishonim and achronim had long since advocated havijg a knowledge of chochmos leshem shomayim, to understand Torah better, etc…his chidush was in institutionalizing it into part of chinuch, synthesizing it with the teaching of a parnosa. While neither learning a trade or learning chochmos were inherently new, making them institutionalized was a novel concept.

It also ran contrary to the rema which says that one may not learn chochmos b’kevius. Rav hirsch i don’t believe ever addressed the rema directly, but i believe his defenders say that for parnosa there is no such limitation; rav elchanan wasserman writes something along those lines about college, with the prerequisite that no apikorsus be taught.

Qwert, im not defending Lubavitch in the slightest; Menachem has good things to say about other things, and if i agree, i agree, and if i disagree, then that’s how I’ll respond; it’s not us vs. them; the reason why I even bother being on here is to share ideas with people, debunk online nonsense, and learn from people, some of whom i might sharply disagree with. That’s what this site js about; the moment something turns personal, i stop caring. That’s why i don’t care when some posters make fun of my name or engage in kther childish behavior; that’s not what im here for, and it only serves to prove my points for me.

I find menachems parody of the us vs them thing pretty funny; if you want to discuss ideas, I’m game, otherwise, i see no value.

Thought, a very rich person is not limited by the rule of chomesh, firstly. Secondly, that’s got for tzedaka; using money to build yeshivos, be a zevulun to many many yisachars, klal work, etc…was never under discussion. There’s no question that Hashem wants a wealthy person to use their money for avodas Hashem, and not to own 5 houses, a yacht and a Lamborghini.

Qwert, you’re right that it is not the job of a kiruv rabbi to give fiery mussar shmuzen. That’s true. It doesn’t mean that a rav’s job of an observant community is to be a role model.

Rav millers shul were all orthodox from the beginning. He was a kiruv person, but kiruv krovim, bringing closer people who are already observant. Those people do need fiery drashos, and at the very least tochachah that they’ll be open to.

Being a kiruv rabbi in a shul or a college is different, and I’m surprised you can’t see the clear difference.

Mdd, that’s for us to oppose when they’re here; their own cheshbonos are between them and Hashem… we’d want to see the retribution of the wicked for a mussar Haskel, from which we benefit…but to desire that other yiden burn forever once they’re gone…why does it hurt us if a yid gets into olam haba on some technicality lr zchus?

But without seeing the avudraham i don’t know what to make of it….what case is he talking about where a person only davens hoich? I’ll look it up bli neder and update my post.

For unrefined amei haaretz, there is an idea of a rov not stressing kedushah to such people if they are going to be miserly, telling poor people to make do with little…better let them enjoy their gashmius if they’ll give more tzedaka and do it right.

Honestly, for an am haaretz or someone who refuses to learn… it’s such a pity that their life is so ruled by taavos.

Modern Orthodoxy made a movement out of not having a mesorah.

Qwert, not only can a rov tell his congregation what to do, he has an obligation to do so. He is a mochiach, in a position to give tochacha, as every gadol has done throughout history. Look at the derashos of rishonim and achronim; they’re full of ethical and halachik exhortations…look at the seforim of the chofetz Chaim, including the sefer he’s named after and shmiras halashon.

Not wanting to be told what to do is a human feeling and a good sign of your yichus, because klal yisroel is an am keshei oref, a stubborn nation. Seforim say that when Hashem went to all the nations, he gave them a mitzvah that went against their nature, and they rejected the Torah; Yishmael with znus, eisav with murder…and yisroel was with anochi Hashem, that we need to listen to someone. So you’re in good company! But you need to fight that yatzer hora and humble yourself to an authority of your choosing.

Modern Orthodox rabbis teach that the rabbi’s authority ends in shulchan aruch and doesn’t extend to life decisions or politics, but you’ve done one better and believe that a rov has no authority at all! That’s quite a deviation from even the most liberal sects of observant jews, and it’s a shame that someone who has Orthodox smicha edited told you this idea that a rov is supposed to be a role model. Does he or you have a shred of a source for that statement? Rabbonim make takanos all of the time…in the communities of the chasam sofer, rav hirsch, and everyone else, there were rules, enacted by rabbonim.

The mesilas yeshorim talks about following a rov, comparing it to a a guide in a hedge maze. The mishnah in avos says to sit in the dust of the chachamim, understand that their words are fire, humble yourself to them, and drink in their words with thirst.

Out of town communities are better at this than elsewhere, because usually there’s one or two poskim who the whole community follows. Take a look at what they do in Baltimore, Cleveland, etc…the community follows the ordinances of its rov.

This has nothing to do with being “yeshivish.” When non yeshivish people were exercising in mixed gyms and even mixed swimming in Cleveland out of ignorance, rav hirschfeld, the posek there, along with all of the shul rabbonim, wrote a letter, and put a stop to it. Most of the resistance to listening to rabbis is in in-town places, because there are so many rabbonim and not a lot of central authority.

You’ve discussed your background in candid terms, and i applaud you for embracing observance and getting involved in learning, but to be fully observant means to follow the halachik and hashkafic decisions of rabbonim, who are authorities on yiddishkeit. It doesn’t matter to me if you decide to follow poskim like rabbi hershel Shechter, or others who i personally disagree with on many issues, since the majority of gedolim were against some of their views, but they are established authorities in their communities, even though they’re not “yeshivish.”

If you want sources regarding television, please let me know and I will provide them, but i won’t if you have no plans on accepting them.

Rav miller was no different than any rosh Yeshiva in how his talmidim follow him. In my yeshiva, rav belsky was the final word for most of us in halacha, in chaim berlin, it was rav aharon shechter and rav shraga feivel cohen, in mir the words of rav shmuel birnbaum were Torah misinai…rav miller did succeed in having a shul where he was in a position of Rosh yeshiva/manhig in a time when most people unfortunately went בשרירות לבם, doing what they decided on their own.

Qwert, it sounds like your rabbi is unfamiliar with communities that have strong rabbinic leadership. Talmidim of any gadol take their words as Torah misinai; go to any Yeshiva and you’ll see this, except for places like brisk where lots of guys go with no intention of being machniah themselves to rav avrohom Yehoshua, but this is an exception. In yeshivos we say that so and so got “farkoift” on such and such gadol.

Lubavitch has an entirely different look on their leader, which has been explained a ton on this and other threads. They think he’s omniscient, able to help them, fit to offer prayers to, doing mitzvos because he said to do them, etc….

I don’t think rav miller was “perfect,” as no one is. Rav miller himself writes that even Moshe rabbeinu was only infallible when speaking nevuah, but that on his own he could and did make mistakes, on his level, which of course we have no understanding of.

I wrote about why two prominent American gedolim said not to get involved in the anti-neo chabad controversy. Both of those gedolim changed their minds around the same time, as rav pam and rav miller were niftar in 2001. We find many gedolim misjudged people, going as far back as geichazi. Rav Moshe also trusted his son in law…. And if you’re an east sider, well, enough said, you know the stories probably better than i do.

Just as an aside, one of the big roshei yeshiva said that the twin towers fell after the protection of the “two towers” in new york were gone. That stayed with me for 2 decades.

Re, Thanksgiving; rav moshe doesn’t say it’s a mitzvah or that you should do it, just that it’s allowed. Many good jews did it years ago, but the yeshiva world completely abandoned the practice 25-odd years ago. It’s also dependent not so much on halacha issues but on historical facts. Rav Moshe didn’t speak English, and presumably relied on information from people. Rav miller was a college graduate. The latter said that historically the holiday was meant to thank the Christian deity based on research, so this isn’t a machlokes in halacha so much as in netzius. I’m not saying one isn’t allowed to follow rav moshe in this regard, just “food” for thought.

Re, Rabbi kook. Rac shlomo zalman had a lot bigger things to do than delve into the controversy. I doubt he ever even read the books which were controversial or heard about calling Rembrandt a “tzadik,” edited or the rest. Rav Shlomo zalman wasn’t a zionist. He just sat and learned.

Other talmidim, like rav hutner, publicly distanced themselves from him. but this is a tangential topic.

As for the question about why we would bother paskening on shomayim issues, this question was asked by rishonim. The answer is that whatever we pasken in beis din shel matah, is followed by beis din shel maalah. This is why we have machlokes in mishnah and gemara about chiyuvei krisus, misa bidei shomayim, etc…

Just for the record, i hope in shomayim they pasken that everyone killed during the Holocaust and in thr temple shooting go straight to olam haba. Who would prefer to deny them such? Rav Miller held not like that, not because he didn’t want them to go to olam haba, but because that was his daas Torah opinion, and he is obligated to teach Torah as he sees it.

Qwert, there are people who are put off by rav millers hashkofos. So maybe they don’t want to consider him a gadol byisroel. But every gadol I’ve known has considered him such. No, he was not in the same league as gedolei olam like rav Moshe, rav aharon, the chazon ishz etc…but in America he was one of the gedolim on lar with rav shmuel birnbaum, rav pam, etc…

Most gedolim say that they’re not gedolim. Rav belsky heard from rav chaim kanievsky that he in all earnest was wondering “what’s this niggun “yomim al yemei melech tosif” that i keep hearing people sing… don’t people sing any other niggunin?” It didn’t dawn on him that people would be singing that for him.

I agree there’s little to gain in discussing who was a gadol and who might not have been, except there are cases where it’s important, such as discouraging others from being involved in people which can lead one on a path away from mesorah.

edited. Not sure you have credentials for listing names.

Sechel, writing a lot does not make one bigger or smaller. There were minor poskim who wrote long volumes of teshuvos, and there was the bais halevi, who wrote relatively few teshuvos, yet his words are חוצבים להבות אש. Rav nossom adler, one of the gedolei olam and the chasam sofers rebbe, wrote nothing. Most of the geonim wrote nothing too.

Sometimes writing longer seforim is evident of the opposite of gadlus.

So I’m not impressed with “kamus,” im concerned with eichus.

And i can’t believe someone here said that rav miller wasn’t a gadol… He was one of the biggest bekiim in shas in his time