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And if cunin and chabad use the terms rebbe and god interchangeably, whatever reason you’re going to give for that, i think it speaks for itself…
Not every word that a tzadik says is nevuah; not every word that even a navi says is nevuah! Only when he speaks for Hashem; this is why Moshe was able to make a mistake, on his level, when he said shinu nah hamorim; that was him talking, not Hashem, no matter how batul to Hashem Moshe was(and he was the most batul because he was the biggest anav)
Cs, no, we don’t daven that the whole world will know moshiach. He is a vehicle for the world knowing Hashem. We daven all the time that the world will know Hashem – we don’t say to Hashem that he should send moshiach in order that they all know who moshiach is; maybe that’s what chabad does, but it’s very twisted.
Where in any of our tefilos do we pine for the world to know moshiach? We want moshiach SO THAT people will know Hashem!
Cs, rashi doesn’t mean that the women didn’t mourn Moshe at all; that’s unthinkable. He means that the women weren’t as emphatic in their mourning for moshe as they were for aharon
Cs, you’re not answering why cunin said that the “whole world” will see that the Lubavitcher rebbe runs the world. Not chabad chasidim being strengthened in their chasidus based esoteric ideas, and not klal yisroel that (to him) should embrace chasidus – no, goyim, the whole world who is unaware of Hashem’s rulership, will know not that Hashem runs the world, but that the Lubavitcher rebbe does, in whatever capacity that is.
Cs, from an outsider perspective, there has been a change in chabad after the Lubavitcher rebbe passed away. The tzfas-niks weren’t an issue before he passed away, and tznius was a ton better in crown heights. I don’t think you can deny that modern elements, brought in by the large number of recent BTs and gerim, have affected chabad culture – just go out and look at what the younger generation does.
Fanaticism and modernity are flip sides of the same coin – the void of stable leadership. They need a new rebbe; it’s not very complicated.
Arso, this is why i make it a point to always refer to the last Lubavitcher rebbe as such, even when it’s clear that I’m talking about him, because of how many people try to convince others that “the rebbe” is s term that implies the Lubavitcher rebbe.
In all chassidishe communities that I’ve seen, chasidim refer to their rebbe simply as “der rebbe” or “der rebbe zt”l,” so if a Lubavitcher says that, i have no issue with it, but when they make it out to be as though their rebbe was “THE rebbe” for the entire world… it’s chabad supremacism.
Cs, chas veshalom to say that the yidden didn’t mourn moshe rabbeinu! Rashi just means that the mourning was more intense because of what he did for their interpersonal relationships.
Menachem, being a talmid/chasid of anyone can make you unable to see their mistakes or chisronos, and that’s not necessarily a bad thing. There were people who were against my main rebbe, but I didn’t care and chose to judge him favorably, even in one case where it was challenging, and I’m forced to admit that he made a mistake.
As I’ve mentioned a few times, it doesn’t concern me if the Lubavitcher rebbe was a tzadik or not; what I’m concerned with are the issues at hand.
I will add though that rav Nachman of Breslov said that the velt makes two mistakes about tzadikim: one is that they can’t make mistakes, and the other is that if they have made a mistake, that shows that they were never a tzadik to begin with. When i acknowledge that my rebbe was capable of making a mistake, that in no way impacts my fidelity to him, his psakim or his teachings.
Why can’t a Lubavitcher accept that the Lubavitcher rebbe may have made mistakes?
Mistake doesn’t mean aveirah by the way. I’m well aware of the tanyas definition of a tzadik.
And if that’s where cunin is, what does that say about the rest of the community who looks to him as a leader?
Cs, you’re avoiding the issue – a religious jew wants the world to know that putin, biden, and netanyahu do not run the world, rather Hashem does. That’s giluy kovod malchus shomayim, something we daven for 3x a day and spend the entire Rosh Hashanah asking for…vehofa behadar gaon uzcha…we yearn for the world to recognize Hashem, because of the tzar hashechina, because of the thicj hester panim that it puts us in, and simply because we love Hashem and we wish everyone knew about him.
Cunin didn’t say that. He wants the goyishe world to see(and he said it emphatically) and know clearly that it’s the (Lubavitcher) rebbe who runs the world.
If he were speaking about chasidim knowing this esoteric idea of being a merkava to Hashem, being honored by Him as the figurehead leader while Hashem is really in charge…. would he say that the whole world should know it? Wouldn’t that be, to say the least, misplaced priorities? Shouldn’t they first believe in Hashem at all?
Is chabads longing for the world to acknowledge their rebbe more potent than their desire for the world to accept Hashem?
Please give a clear answer. Or you can just say cunin is wrong, which means the mainstream head of wesr coast chabad is espousing a hashkofa very wrong in the eyes of the Torah.
Cs, believing in Moshe means believing that the Torah he gave us is 100% true and dvar Hashem, and that his nevuah is above all other neviim.
What it does NOT mean, is that there’s something independently powerful or holy about Moshe without Hashem; see meshech chochma on the chait haegel; the mistake was that they put an independent emphasis on Moshe rabbeinu, and thought that without him there can be no other leader or way of reaching Hashem.
Tanach is full of pesukim which pine for the days when knowledge of Hashem – not tzadikim – will fill the earth,and we daven for it all day on rosh Hashanah. Nowhere in the machzor do we daven that the world know about rebbe akiva or the rishonim, achronim; they are important to get close to Hashem, as the mitzvah of uvo sidbak – clinging to Hashem, but that’s for jews and it’s a next step after basic emunah.
Emunah doesn’t start with moshe, it starts with Hashem; and that’s exactly the order in the pasuk. They believed in Hashem and in Moshe.
But when the jews sinned, the neviim didn’t chastise them for forgetting Moshe – that’s a big problem, but the bigger issue was forgetting Hashem.
When talking about goyim, it’s fine if they never even heard of Moshe rabbeinu; do you think west africans need to know tanach to be good people? The 7 mitzvos are logical; they’re supposed to gigure them out on their own. And according to most, if a goy sets out to believe in Hashem abd keep the 7 mitzvos as he understands them to be the reflection of Hashem’s will he will have olam haba. He has solved the riddle of the universe, he is a person worthy of praise.
The goal in teaching emunas chachamim is that they guide us and we trust them that they are guided by ruach hakodesh and hashgocha. When we lose them, we lose that ability to access Hashem’s Torah on that level and hear their guidance. But does that mean i will want every goy in the world to hear the name rav moshe feinstein or rav aharon kotler? Why do i care if they know them, as long as they know there’s a creator and maintainer of the world? Even the name of Hashem, as important as that is for Jews and how powerful that is – we rejoice when arab non jews acknowledge Hashem in their own language, because that’s the most important thing.
Cs, you’re not addressing why cunin would want the whole world to know about this esoteric chasidishe concept, when they are still unaware of the existence of and the dominion of Hashem in the world.
As a shlucha, do you want the world to be full of tue knowledge of Hashem and His kingdom over everything, or do you want the world to know the name of a particular chassidishe rebbe who lived in the 20th century and who is long deceased, even if he davens for people who go to his kever etc…? Maybe you want both, but why did cunin say that when there will be nissim, the whole world will know that the Lubavitcher rebbe runs the world? Wouldn’t nissim show the world that Hashem runs the world?
So either he uses the two interchangeably, or he is more concerned with people knowing about his rebbe than Hashem. There’s really no good way of understanding cunins words without him being guilty of some sort of egregious hashkafa…maybe you’ll say he just misspoke; but why didn’t anyone around him care when he said that?
And who misspeaks about something as enormous as Hashem running the world?
Perhaps overexposure to chasidus and kabalah can have a deleterious affect on people…. that’s about the best case scenario i can think of in defending cunin, if I would be inclined to do so.
The number of expulsions, pogroms, and massacres was very small in Arab countries compared with christian ones.
Arabs never loved us, but sefardi jews didn’t spend their lives in fear. There were isolated incidents of forced conversion and attacks, but again, much less than in Europe.
Islamic law considers judaism a protected religion; under their law, we are allowed to live unmolested if we pay a tax.
That’s what antizionists(and simple historical fact) say. Their hatred erupted after zionism exponentially.
Cs, a better comparison would be saying that golda meir runs israel from the grave; saying Netanyahu runs israel or that biden runs rhe US is speaking of the derech hateva state of things, same as saying a father is head of a household…. Hashem is the true source, but it looks like these people are in charge.
But nothing looks as though the Lubavitcher rebbe is in charge of the world, and to think so would be to say that Hashem put him in charge, which is assur al pi halacha.
And if cunin meant something like the above explanation i gave, or what you’re saying, why would the whole world have to know that? Doesn’t cunin and chabad prefer that the whole world know that Hashem exists and runs the world? Isn’t that our job?
Or is your job to spread awareness of the Lubavitcher rebbe and his vision?
Sounds more like the latter.
Menachem, there are many things in medrashim that we don’t understand; this is a great example. The rambam rules that if one believes that Hashem gave over command of a part of the world to a malaach, or a kochav, or anything else, he is an oved avodah zara. That’s halacha lemaysoh. Thinking that Hashem gave over fontrol of the world to a tzadik is the same thing.
As to why cunin mentioned Hashem later, i think he betrayed his true belief the first time, which you said is mainstream anyway, but there’s another, even worse possiblity, that he simply uses Hashem and the Lubavitcher rebbe interchangeably r”l.
Tzadikim daven to Hashem and their zchusim protect us; that’s not controversial at all, but it has nothing to do with being under the dominion of a person. Hashem is the only one who has dominion.
What I’d venture to say about the medrash is that tzadikim are a merkava for Hashem, as the tanya explains in perek….2? I don’t remember but it’s in the beginning. They subjugate themselves so much that they are in constant sync with the ratzon Hashem; their ratzon reflects the ratzon Hashem. So it’s Hashem making the decisions but the tzadik acts like a figurehead ruler; it looks like he’s in charge, but really he’s just being gozer what Hashem wants either way.
But that’s not something that “the world will see,” it’s an esoteric concept. When cunin said that the world will see that the Lubavitcher rebbe runs the world, he’s saying it’s a form of giluy Shechina r”l, the kind of thing we daven for by saying vehaya Hashem lemelech etc…we want kovod shomayim to be on full display for the world, that they should all know that Hashem runs the world.
Chabad seems to want the world to know that their rebbe runs the world; goyim should realize that Hashem exists and they should serve Him, not a person. Whatever concepts there are about how tzadikim work in shomayim has no bearing on that at all.
If it’s not leshem shomayim, what’s the point?
Chaim, American jewry 75 years ago couldn’t read chumash and rashi. What was “frum enough” then included going to public school. We don’t decide halacha by what ignorami do in a country bereft of yeshivos.
Josephus writes about how chazal appointed the political leaders and led the nation in all matters, even mundane.
When it comes to things they don’t like in the torah world ,MO put on big yarmulkes and say “tradition!!” When it comes to things they want to change, it’s “get with the times!”
So incredibly disingenuous.
Ujm, what was it then? Forgery?
Menachem, why was west coast chabad leader shlomo cunin not worried about publicizing his belief that “the rebbe runs the world,” which is on video? He’s “mainstream ” as far as i can tell. No one assembled at his speech reacted in surprise either.
I think you might be part of a small group of Lubavitch; it seems you’re unaware of what outsiders have witnessed, myself included.
Re, how rabbonim treat people: i work with MO families on a constant basis. I treat them like jews, because that’s what they are; beloved children of Hashem. I place no importance whatsoever on their affiliation; i am there to do my job and to teach Torah. That’s what the rabbonim you know do too; i would treat you like an equal as well, because i treat every jew that way – now i might talk differently to uneducated jews who don’t understand Hebrew, and I’ll speak differently with my yeshiva friends, because they’re from that world, but the level of respect is the same across the board .
So if you’ve come far enough that people talk to you like yeshivishe baalei batim, great for you! Kol hakavod; it’s a sign of accomplishment.
Sact, this discussion is people who are admitting their mistakes and explaining why it’s not good. If people railed against it without reading it, you’d say “how do you know, you never even read it,” but if we did read it, you’re saying “see, you read it and liked it,”
That’s an intellectually dishonest portrayal of the discussion and forces you to be right no matter what.
I know stories of people being told by rabbonim that they can use a TV in extreme circumstances; whatever you were told has zero bearing on a public forum, where the halacha lemaysoh for everyone else is that it’s assur.
Ask this rov if you should be posting that it’s allowed in general, or if you should have stipulated that YOU were given a heter based on your circumstances.
Drug addicts are told that they can use their phones to call their sponsors on shabbos; does that mean that “using a phone is allowed on Shabbos?”
It’s like what you quoted from the kiruv rabbi earlier; “just being a role model” is the rabbinic function for a kiruv rabbi, but you made it out to be as if it’s what every rov is everywhere. Same thing here – even if you received such a heter, it does not mean that the thing is permitted for anyone else, and it’s your responsibility not to teach others to do as you do when they are not under whatever circumstances you are.
Of course there are legitimate kiruv rabbis with such followings, just there are plenty of yeshiva drop outs too.
We say eilu veilu regarding Torah opinions. There has not been one gadol on record as saying that television is acceptable. Period. You’re free to ask any established posek you want, but don’t be fooled by charlatan rabbis with big synagogues who darshen up the new york times every week to their audience of mostly secular jews.
Qwert, a large number of east side families send their kids to my yeshiva. None of them have televisions at home. Like any neighborhood, the east side has modern people, and yeshivish people. The advantage of that particular community is that the modern people have more of a connection with Torah jews, because that’s the kind of rabbonim who are in the area.
If you are wondering why rav dovid didn’t sign the kol koreh, i believe the answer is that he was exceedingly humble and might not have thought he belonged on the list.
My rebbe, rav belsky, was a prominent posek at the time of that kol koreh, but his name isn’t on there either. Yet he spoke about the evils of TV in yeshiva numerous times, and wrote a powerful haskama to a sefer about the prohibition of having/watching television, where he says “all of the gedolim of the previous generation screamed like cranes about televisions because of the great danger…”
Why didn’t rav belsky sign that particular kol koreh? Who knows. Maybe for the same reason as rav dovid. Why don’t you ask rav dovids son why he didn’t sign it, or what his shitah is, instead of assuming things? Only if you’re ready to accept the psak that is
Many important seforim were written in arabic, including the emunos vedayos, chovos halevavos, and perush hamishnayos, because that’s the language jews spoke then. But they spoke a jewish arabic, which like yiddish, has a chashivus and a certain kedushah.
The term “boomer” shares a similarity with the term “harry,’ if you don’t know what it is, it’s likely that you are one.
But if you look up seforim in Hebrew, your mommy, totty and Hashem will be so proud of you
Km, no, it was the logical trajectory of his teachings that led them astray. If you don’t need to accept X in yiddishkeit, then why not this part, or that part, or…the whole thing? This is why the rambam says that one is who is kofer in one letter of the Torah is the same as being kofer in all of it.
Mitzvos aren’t all or nothing, but emunah is. Emunah is having complete subjugation to the words of torah shebichsav abd and chazal, and mendelssohn was faulty in both. Maybe not to the extent where he himself broke halacha in practice, but it was enough to lay the groundwork for a wholesale abandonment of Torah.
For the record, rav yaakov emden had a correspondence with mendelssohn, and said at the end that the whole time he was trying to be mekarev him, but is giving up because now he has strayed so far that he owns a dog – this was his sign that he was off the derech.
What always puzzled me is that among the gedolei yisroel, there was one who i read supported the german translation/interpretation of chumash that he wrote, and even wrote a haskama to it, and that’s rav akiva aiger, despite his son ij law being the chasam sofer, who was very outspoken against mendelssohn.
But in light of everything above, rav Akiva eiger is the kasha, not the terutz. Maybe he saw nothing wrong in the biur and wanted to be mekarev him…who knows.
So….by har sinai there was a mesorah that Hashem is only giving us religious things but we need perfection from elsewhere?
Hashem said at har sinai “today you are a people to me,” because of this Torah you are a nation – founded in the desert, not in eretz yisroel; Modern Orthodoxy believes in nationalism, that we’re a nation because of the Torah “and” language, fraternity, land, etc…see the theme? Torah isn’t enough for them.
And why isn’t Torah enough? Because “if it is empty, it is from you,” chazal say if one finds torah deficient, it is because he is the empty one. He isn’t giving Torah enough dedication and effort, so he turns to things which are easier, like science and literature, and then fools himself into thinking he’s bigger than talmidei chachamim.
Modern, in moreh nevuchim, the rambam is trying to convince people to keep mitzvos which they don’t understand, because they have a yatzer hora not to.
This yatzer hora needed to be dealt with, and the rambam tackled this task.
In mishnah Torah the rambam clearly understands chukim as laws without a revealed reason, as he writes in the beginning of rosh hashana “af al pi she tekias shofar gezeras hakasuv…”
Moreh nevuchim wasn’t written to be abused. Actually, it was written specifically for heretics like mendelssohn.
Chazal say that goyim harangue us for keeping mitzvos without revealed reasons (see rashi in beginning of behar). Mendelssohn is in that category.
Km, so you think a person can be called a rabbi if he denies a hashkafa topic that he decided doesn’t make sense? The Torah is not hefker for us to decide which parts we keep and which parts we don’t.
Maybe he wouldn’t believe in schar veonesh or hashgocha protis because of tzadik vera lo.
Arso, sorry to disappoint; im losing my bekius in children’s media…
“I acknowledge no immutable truths, but such as not only may be made conceivable to the human understanding, but as also admit of being demonstrated and warranted by human faculties.” – Moses Mendelssohn, Jerusalem, trans. M Samuels vol. 1 pg.89
Here we have mendelssohn denying anything he can’t understand; effectively denying chukim.
My mistake, it’s not in the first “religion allied to progress” essay, rather here:
“Religion Allies to Progress” in Judaism Eternal, pp.230-1)
Re, rav hirsch and Mendelssohn – ever read rav hirschs famous “lrogress allied to religion?” He quotes mendelssohn’s “Jerusalem ” filth and says that the latter never seriously studied Torah and thinks that one can be sufficiently jewish by faith alone.
I’ve read enough about mendelssohn, but I am an Orthodox jew who keeps halacha to the best of my ability, and the poskim forbade reading his books unequivocally. So I’m going based on that I’ve read “about” him and what all of his students espoused. All of them. Not a few stragglers like the handful of talmidim of other gedolim who deviate from their rebbeim.
All of his students stopped keeping halacha and every one of his children intermarried. That means nothing to you?
Add to that list, the aruch hashulchan, the marcheshes, rav Moshe years later, the chazon ish, the brisker rov – why is it that no one cares about this man who is supposedly equal to them all?
Also where do you come off judging who’s more in touch with the needs of the klal? Because he had an ideology you happen to think is better for them? It’s chutzpah. I’ve seen reines writings; I’m not impressed.