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Getting back to the topic of kol isha (As I have already posted, no one today knows how to give rebuke. The Chofetz Chaim said that ????? is related to ?????. You have to prove it to him – in a way that he can accept) , there are several reasons to be meikal:
1. They do not have a choice in order to do there military service, which is a great mitzva. Merely being in a place where there is immodesty is muttar for any need (Baba Batra 57b). Rav Aviner posited that an enjoyment one is forced to get is not called an enjoyment.
2. According to many poskim issurei d’rabbanan are allowed ???? ???? (see Responsa Chatam Sofer Vol 2 Yoreh Deah 131 and Mishna Berura 330,8). This, of course, is assuming that kol isha is rabbinic – and there are such sheetot.
3. There are heterim for songs which are not intended for enjoyment (Sedeh Chemed Klalaim Maarechet HaKuf 42 in the name of Divrei Chefetz) and Seridei Esh 2:14. This would certainly apply to the types of songs sung at military ceremonies.
4. There is heter for several people singing together based on ??? ???? ?? ????? (Chatan Sofer Orech Chaim Shaar HaTaharot Yadayim 14).
5. Embarassing the singer in public where the soldier walks out (Rav Carmel).
Thus a rav can certainly allow soldiers to go to such ceremonies. The one to decide is the mara d’atra, the IDF Chief Rabbi (as ruled Rav Yaakov Ariel).
For a general discussion of the issue of kol isha see Contemporary Halachic Problems col. 2 pg. 147.
Popa,
1. The moderator will decide whether or not you are heard on this site.
2. We were talking about yehareg uval yaavor not whether it is prohibited. The rabbis realized that this was a put-on.
3. The point is that an action done under compulsion is not considered an action. See Rambam Hilchot Melachim 10:1 that a Ben Noach is patur when anus because he is not chayav in kiddush Hashem. This is the chiyuv of yehareg uval yaavor (therefore a Jew who does so because of onus is also patur as he is mevatel an asseh).
Sam, I heard that they also sang shirei Eretz Yisrael – which are also praises of Hashem. There are also heterim for other types of songs where there is no intent to get hanaah from her voice as brought down by Rabbi B;leich. Bli neder when I have some more time I will see if the sources are on the Internet.
Sam,
1. There is a similar machloket regarding shaking hands with a woman. Both Rav Shimon Schwaband his brother asked shailot (of different rabbanim). One was told yehareg vealyaavor and the other was told muttar. Regarding an individual this is fine and common but the Army obviously needs a unified pesak. The address is obviously the IDF Chief Rabbi, who is the mara d’atra (so paskened Rav Yaakov Ariel).
2.From the Chief of Staff’s tone (I heard him on the radio) and the fact that he created a stir by making a joke about it I gathered that he does not want this but needs to do it because of pressure from feminists and singers who for some reason feel personally offended. Thus, even if it is assur it is hanaat atzmo.
Regarding giving a heter, many times issurei derabbana are allowed mishum aiva. Here it is even easier as there are heterim which already exist. One is the microphone. The Seridei Esh mentions zemirot and shirei Eretz Yisrael, which might apply to the type of songs sung at military ceremonies (and the purpose of these ceremonies is morale, which is very important to combat soldiers). Another, put forth by Rav Shlomo Aviner, who is not known as a meikal on tzniut, is that any hanaah the soldier receives is against his will and therefore not halachically hanaah. There is a similar sheetta which says that any melacha one is compelled to do on Shabbat is a melacha she’ain tzericha lagufa and therefore according to Rabbi Shimon (according to whom most Rishonim pasken) it is an issur derabbanan. The Chatam Sofer, the Minchat Yitzchak and others use this to allow giving medical treatment to a Goy on Shabbat mishum aiva (Rav Gustman added that the doctor would lose his license and thus be unable to treat Jews). Rav Yosef Carmel of Eretz Chemda posited that walking out would be embarassing the singer in public. Rav Metzger, who himself does not walk out when women sing at ceremonies, said that he takes his mind off her by saying Tehillim to himself (although he added that this is a difficult heter to give to a bachur).
3. The Gemara is talking about an eshet ish. The doctors started with asking to allow him to be with her. This is clearly not allowed even for pikuach nefesh. Later they tried to bargain and went down to a conversation and just seeing her in the altogether. Obviously, this was just an excuse.
Sushe, the Zionists di not radicalize the Arabs. In fact, just after the Balfour Declaration the Emir Faisal met witrh Chaim Weizman and expressed support for Zionism from an Islamic perspective similar to what Fundamentalists are saying today although without statements about converting us chas veshalom. The radicalization was carried out by the Mufti of Yerushalayim ym”s, whjo was an admirer of yemach shemo in Germany and had delusions of reestablishing the Caliphate (under his rule, of course). Thus, in Tarpat the Arabs massacred non-Zionist Tora learners in Chevron. The mob included those with whom the Jews had long-standing good personal relations.
As for the pre-Zionist situation is concerned, for years Ashkenazim had to masquerade as Sephardim because any Ashkenazi founs was imprisoned for debts on the Churva synagogue. Not to mention the Damascus blood libel.
Popa, your prustkeit shows from where you are coming. The Chief of Staff said that there is room in the Army for women to contribute according to their abilities. The extent and its ramifications for frum soldiers is a matter for the Army Chief Rabbi, who is the mara d’atra, in consultation with the General Staff to decide.The purpose is not to make soldiers do aveirot but for what is seen as the unity of the Army. Thus, at worst it is hana’at atzmo. Actually, considering how girls behaved at Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley and Beatles concerts (which no boy did at any concert of any female singer) there might be room for a takkana on kol ish as apparently Nature changed. However, we do not have the power to do so or to eliminate the prohibition of kol isha. Poskim, however, do have the power of heter in different situations – and this ower is preferable (Beitza 2b – and while you are dusting off your seforim look at the Tiferet Yisrael at the beginning of the masechta regarding the pronunciation of the name of the masechta).
Popa, anything which is needed for the morale of the troops is part of pikuach nefesh. Obviously there was a reason why a distinction was made between ceremonies and entertainment.
As for heterim, read Rabbi Bleich’s article on the subject in Contemporary Halachic Problems (offhand I do not remeber if it is in vol. 1 or 2 but you might benefit from both volumes).
See Mishna Berura 561:2 (written when the Turks were in control) that even when the cities of Yehuda are populated by Jews they are considered desolate so long as there is not Jewish rule. See also (if you have a version not censored by the anti-Zionists) Chiddushei Chatam Sofer Sukka 36a that any work one does in Eretz Yisrael is a kiyum of the mitzva of building the Land. Thus, the zionists were and are filled with mitzvot like a pomegranate.
HaKatan, if not for the Zionists the Arabs would have slaughtered whatever few Tora learners there were in Eretz Yisrael (as they did in Tarpat). Rav Soloveichik said that if not for the State almost all the surviviors of the Holocaust would have assimilated out of fear and depression.
Popa, there are heterim, for example, if she sings through a micrrophone. Obviously the Army Rabbinate was consulted and it was decided that there is a need which justifies relying on kulot.
What about the fact that you are mevatel an asseh (Rambam Hilchot Melachim 5:1 AND 6:4)? As we all know, an asseh is doche a lo taaseh (if kol isha is d’oraita, which is not clear). Not to mention the fact that the Chofetz Chaim encouraged young Jewish men to join Goyish armies – and asked those who planned to dodge the draft what they would do when we have our owm state and army -even though they would have to do many more issurim.
Cantgetit, Rav Shach gave each person who asked a personal pesak (as with everything else). Once, a very promising bachur felt a strong need to join the IDF (it was during wartime). His rabbanim brought him to Rav Shach and he told them not to “break” the boy. B”H he is still frum. How much more so boys who are not cut out for learning and will at best hang around the coffee machine (in Israeli slang there is even a word for them: parparim – butterflies) or at worst become part of the Shaba Charedi and terrorize their neighbors – as is happening in Mea Shearim.
Health,
1. Which gedolim? You remind me of the pashkavillim wroiters who sign “harabbanim shelita”. Which rav? The erev rav? Harav im kulam?
2. Learn Tanach – unless your “gedolim” have banned it as Zionistic. David had an army. Learn Gemara. Just as Yoav needed David, David needed Yoav (Sanhedrin 49a)
3. I doubt very much that Rav Shach stood up just because he liked his grandson. He stood up davka when he was in uniform – he stood up for the uniform.
4. Is it also assur to have dealings with the Medina in order to take or just to give?
5. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (I presume thaty ou have heard of him) used to go to Har Herzl to visit kivrei tzaddikim. He was very machmir that one should violate Shabbat to make things easier for combat soldiers in wartime.
I think that they are talking about a newspaper of the same name – especially as the YWN article said that the background is a dispute with Yated.
Health, who? Rav Soloveichik supported the establishment of the state. The leader of the Aguda in Eretz Yisrael signed the Declaration. Those in favor of settlement of the Land as a prelude to a state also include the Or Sameach, trhe Avnei Nezer, the Netziv and the Chofetz Chaimand the admors of Hosiatin, Ostrovtza and Gur (the Sefat Emmet)
Gatesheader, the true analogy is someone reneging on his part of a contract. In any case, Rav Meir Simcha said that being that the Goyim agreed the the establishment of the State it is not rebellion. Not to mention the fact that the three oaths are not brought down as halacha in any of the major works. Not to mention the fact that the miracles of the establishment of the State have shown that the time has come.
Health, everybody knows that Rav Eliashiv does not write evrything that goes out in his name and everybody knows that gedolim are often misquoted. In fact, a Chareidi rav told me that once an avereich who was writing a halacha sefer asked Rav Eliashiv a shaila. Rav Eliashiv said “muttar”. The avereich hoched him in chinik until finally he said “fine – if you want it to be assur don’t do it”. The avereich then wrote that Rav Eliashiv said that it is worthy to be machmir.
As for doing things through the Medina, who else runs an army to protect us? Jobs, on the other hand, are mainly in the private sector as are training courses (in fact, the ones that are specifically for Chareidim are given by Chareidi institutions). Apparently someone is afraid that if Chareidim leave the dole (doled out by the Medina)they will be less subject to control by those who supposedly represent their interests (this, in fact, is how socialistic parties stay in power).
I jusyt googled the name and discovered that there are several Rav Yaakov Shapiros. When quoting him one should specify which one is meant.
I do not believe that Rav Eliashiv wrote this. He knows very well that there is a mitzva to defend Jews and Eretz Yisrael and to do hishtadlut for parnassa. He also knows very well what problems there are in Chareidi communities because boys who are not cut out for learning are not given alternatives.
It is an absolute mitzva to have a Jewish state. If the frum Jews of Europe had heeded Rav Kook when the doors were wide open Israel would today be a Tora state (as Rav Kook then stated). Learn Torat Eretz Yisrael of Rav David Samson.
The attacks in Brooklyn, Highland Park, Lakewood and Belgium bely this. Not to mention the high cost of a frum lifestyle – especially in the US. Not to mention cultural assimilation and outright intermarrriage. Both Rav Soloveichik and Rav Moshe say that aliya is a least a mitzva kiumit and Rav Ovadia says that it is an absolute obligation – and sharply criticizes those who do not do so.
I do not know who this person is or what exactly Rav Yaakov said to himThe Gra is quoted in Kol HaTor as saying that in the time just before Mashiach the chet hameraglim will attack the guardans of Tora with blinders. This was also stated by Rav Eliahu Guttmacher in a letter printed at the beginning of Em haBanim Semeicha and Rav Chaim Eliezer Vax in Nefesh Chaya at the end of Responsa 1 (see Torat Eretz Yisrael by Rav David Samson pg.249-250 footnote 29).
Maybe we can have separate worlds.
Yitay, the term “???? ?????” is in a grammatical form called
“??????”. Thus, it means “the wisdom of Greek”. From the Gemara and Rashi it seems that it was a form a rhetoric. It may have referred to the methods of the Sophists, who were accused of deception – hence the English word “sophistry”.
BTW, there is a joke about a bachur who finds a Tanach in hte bet midrash. He shows it to his chevruta and says “Look! Someone collected all of the pesukim in Shas into one book.”