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The problem is designating all those who are registered in yeshivot and kolelim as “tora schoalrs’. This is inflation in terminology that rivals the monetary inflations of post-WW1 Germany and post-WW2 Hungary. IMHO, the best solution would be to create militar batei midrash where participants would be required to pass exams given by the military rabbinate to prove their level of learning (when the Lakewood yeshiva had to weed out the goof-offs because of budget cuts it gave exams – ’nuff said). I would also require them to give shiurim to soldiers as part of their spiritual service.
In a letter written in Jaffa in 1905, Rav Kook responded to questions concerning evolution and the geological age of the world. He put forth four basic arguments:
1. Even to the ancients, it was well known that there were many periods that preceded our counting of nearly six thousand years for the current era. According to the Midrash (Bereishit Rabbah 3:7), “God built worlds and destroyed them,” before He created the universe as we know it. Even more astonishing, the Zohar (Vayikra 10a) states that there existed other species of human beings besides the ‘Adam’ who is mentioned in the Torah.
2. We must be careful not to regard current scientific theories as proven facts, even if they are widely accepted. Scientists are constantly raising new ideas, and all of the scientific explanations of our time may very well come to be laughed at in the future as imaginative drivel.
3. The fundamental belief of the Torah is that God created and governs the universe. The means and methods by which He acts, regardless of their complexity, are all tools of God, Whose wisdom is infinite. Sometimes we specifically mention these intermediate processes, and sometimes we simply say, ‘God formed’ or ‘God created.’
For example, the Torah writes about “the house that King Solomon built” (I Kings 6:2). The Torah does not go into the details of Solomon speaking with his advisors, who in turn instructed the architects, who gave the plans to the craftsmen, who managed and organized the actual building by the workers. It is enough to say, ‘Solomon built.’ The rest is understood, and is not important. So too, if God created life via the laws of evolution, these are details irrelevant to the Torah’s central message, namely, the ethical teaching of a world formed and governed by an involved Creator.
God limits revelations, even from the most brilliant and holiest prophets, according to the ability of that generation to absorb the information. For every idea and concept, there is significance to the hour of its disclosure. For example, if knowledge of the rotation of the Earth on its axis and around the sun had been revealed to primitive man, his courage and initiative may have been severely retarded by fear of falling. Why attempt to build tall buildings on top of an immense ball turning and whizzing through space at high velocity? Only after a certain intellectual maturity, and scientific understanding about gravity and other compensating forces, was humanity ready for this knowledge.
The same is true regarding spiritual and moral ideas. The Jewish people struggled greatly to explain the concept of Divine providence to the pagan world. This was not an easy idea to market. Of what interest should the actions of an insignificant human be to the Creator of the universe? Belief in the transcendental importance of our actions is a central principle in Judaism, and was disseminated throughout the world by her daughter religions. But if mankind had already been aware of the true dimensions of the cosmos, and the relatively tiny world that we inhabit, could this fundamental concept of Torah have had any chance in spreading? Only now, that we have greater confidence in our power and control over the forces of nature, is awareness of the grandiose scale of the universe not an impediment to these fundamental ethical values.
To summarize:
Ancient Jewish sources also refer to worlds that existed prior to the current era of six thousand years.
One should not assume that the latest scientific theories are eternal truths.
Some ideas are intentionally kept hidden, as the world may not be ready for them, either psychologically or morally.
(Gold from the Land of Israel pp. 23-25. Adapted from Igrot HaRe’iyah vol. I, pp. 105-107)
Actually, it’s questionable if he can sell it as it has not yet come into the world being that one’s portion is set when he leaves. While one can sell a devar shelo ba laolam through a shiabud guf (obligating himself to turn it over when he gets it) he wil no longer have a guf.
As Israel has a multi-party parliamentary system (unlike the two-party presidential system in the US) PMs have always had to keep coalition partners happy. Lapid’s party has enough members to bring down the government (again unlike in the US where only the extreme acts of impeachment and removal for “high crimes and misdemeanors” can bring down a president)so Netanyahu has to give him what he wants where it does not contradict his own priorities. In any case, much of Lapid’s program is Netanyahu’s so he also makes a good scapegoat.
Katan,
1. This was not a pesak but advice not to listen to a certain false messiah. He does not bring it in Mishna Tora. You cannot explain it away.
2. If it was unnecessary why were the British ym”s so intent on preventing their aliya? Obviously every additional Jew was of the utmost importance in the war.
3.Health merely reiterated old blood libels and relied on a mentally disturbed person who is in prison for violent crimes.
4.You opt to remain ignorant, and this does not change history.
5.I did not find that statement in either of his hakdamot.The closest was a modest statement that he did not come to settle a machloket among the gedolim. He also says that every setttlement in EY is a pekida of the Geula.
6. The Gemara says (Sanhedrin 98a – and see Rashi d”hmeguleh mizeh).
7.Your fantasies have been disproven, and I have tried to bring that for you. You are guilty of the sin of the spies. This was the whole thrust of Em HaBanim Semeicha and a long list of gedolim concur.
E-O-M, in Europe different professions had their own shuls. Thus a newcomer could find people who could help him find a job. If it is done after davening it is fine. Perhaps the young marrieds want to bring their babies and toddlers without being told to remove them when they create a disturbance. If so, it is fine with me that they should have their own minyanim. On the contrary, may Hashem bless and keep these minyanim – far away from mine.
Katan,
1. Then why doesn’t he mention them in Mishna Tora? Why doesn’t the Tur? Why doesn’t the Shulchan Aruch.
2. True but it was a calculated risk in time of war.
3. Several committees of inquiry, including two established by Likud governments, showed that there was no such policy. All but a few of the children were accounted for as having died. The tehran children were, in fact, saved form Soviet shmad.
4. You can make up whatever you want.
5. On the contrary, Zionism is a beracha on both a spiritual and physical level. Rav Soloveichik said that if not for the establishment of the State the Jews would have converted out in the national depression following the Holocaust (which could have been averted if not for anti-Zionism, as Rav Teichtal writes in Em HaBanim Semeicha – he equates it with the Sin of the Spies).
6. This is specifically said to be a sign of the Geula. There are none so blind as those who will not see.
7. The Three Oaths have not been binding for a long time, if they have ever been. I have proven this conclusively many times. I refer you to my previous posts on the subject.
Katan,
1. Rambam says that they are ??? ???. Moreover, he does not bring them in Mishna Tora. The Tor and Shulchan Aruch also do not bring them. They are not halacha.
2. The Patria was sunk by accident. The intent was to disable it so that the British ym”s could not send it back.
3. What you wrote about the Yemenites is nonsense.
4. I do not know of the this quote. In any case, many peopel have said many things about opposing factions. This says nothing about the movement or its function in history.
5. The oaths, if they were ver binding, were limited to a maximum of when Hashem obviates them through His hand in history. Those who do not see it are, as Rav Soloveichik termed it,”those whose eyes are shut”.
Katan,
1.Rav Chaim Vital specifically refers to our oath just before saying that :”the oath” is only for 1,000 years.
3. The answers to Rav Aviner are not answers. For example, he asks why previous generations did not try to conquer EY if it is a mitzva in our time. The answer is simple: they were anoosim. Jews did not receive military training and were barredfrom owning weapons. Thus whenever a riot broke out they had to beg or bribe the local nobleman to protect them.
4. The thesis of “Kol Dodi Dofek” is that Hashem has knocked.
Katan,
I looked up that site and his claim is simply not correct. I looked up Rav Chaim Vital’s exact statement in “Kol Kitvei HaArizal” (Rav Vidovski ed.p. 8) and he says “the time of the oath is until 1,000 years” and goes on to quote the Zohar in Vayera 4 117a in the name of Rabbi Yossi.It is clear that he is speaking about our oath.
the collective door of the Jewish people, six awakenings to call us to awaken and reach for greatness. These six knocks were the six miraculous events accompanying the establishment of
the State of Israel:
? The first knock was political; the alliance of the United States and USSR to vote for the existence of the Jewish State.
? The second was military; the victory of the tiny Jewish forces, handicapped by an arms embargo and massively outnumbered.
? The third was theological; the refutation of Notzri doctrine by demonstrating that the Jewish people will again be a vibrant player on the world stage.
? The fourth was sociological; the fact that Jews from around the world felt proud to be Jewish and free to re-engage with their Jewish identity.
? The fifth was an international change of attitude due to the birth of the State of Israel; the fact that Jews had a position of power and a homeland meant that Jewish blood could no
longer be spilt freely and without fear of retribution.
? The sixth and final knock was the influx of exiles; the return to Israel of Jews from across the
world.
HaKatan,
1, As the anti-Zionists brought them up they ansered.
2. Do you know anything about Jewish history? The Crusades (interestingly 1,000 years after the Churban), burning of Talmud in Paris, expulsions, Chmielnitzky massacres, blood libels, pogroms, Holocaust.
3. Maybe he was influenced for good. In any case, that is not an argument.
4.Who are they? The anti-Zionist forgeries were documented in “Forged Letters Against Zionism”.
5. It is not a kashia. It is a fact. Moroever, the head of the Aguda in EY, Rav Y.Y. Levin, signed the Declaration of Independence.
6. He referred to Chareidi Orthodoxy.He was right. It almost does not exist in the USand is falling apart in EY.
7. Who says that he said that about Rav Kook? Everyone agrees that he was a gaon olam, especially Rav Shlomo Zalman and Rav Eliashiv.
HaKatan and Benignunan,
1. Nmae these “early poskim” and cite the places where they make these statements. Rambam in “Iggeret Teiman” says explicitly
“derech mashal” and does not bring them in Mishna Tora.
2. The Oaths did not do a very good job of protecting us.This menas that the deal is off. Other opinions, such as Rav Chaim Vital’s, are snifim, as anyone who has learned Halacha knows.
3. If rav Soloveichik’s opinion is no raaya because he was a Zionist, the Satmar Rebbe’s and Brisker Rav’s are also not raayot as they were anti-Zionists.
4. The forgeries were committed by the anti-Zionists. They censored the Chatam Sofer’s statementr (Sukka 35a) that any work one does in EY is part of the mitzva of building hte land and forged various letters (see “Forged Letters Against Zionism”).
5. Anyone can make up terutzim regarding Rav Cahaneman flying the flag. The fact is, he flew it.
6. On the contrary, Rav Moshe allowed of flying the flag even in shul (although he did not approve of it in the shul itself – but he would have had no problem with it outside) and said that it was to show love for the state (Iggrot Moshe Orech Chaim 1:46). Rav Soloveichik said that it is kadosh.
7. You are the ones who have nothing on which to stand. You are simply looking straight at the truth and saying “no, no, it can’t be”.
HaKatan, we have discussed the Three oaths before but i am willing to repeat it 400 times if necessary.
1. They are not found in any of the Codes. Not in Ramabm, bot in the Tur and not in the Shulchan Aruch.Rav Asher Weiss says that something lie that is NOT halacha pesuka.
2. Rav Chaim Vital (introduction to “Etz HaChaim” says that they were only for 1,000 years.
3. The gentiles violated their part of the bargain repeatedly (Crusades, expulsions., Chmielnitzky massacres, Holocaust).See Sota 9b-10a and Rashi10a d’h huchal shevuato shel Avimelech)that this nullifies the whole deal
4. The Ohr Sameach wrote in a letter to the JNF (to which he contributed from his own pocket) that if they ever existed the San Remo Conference repealed them.
5. Rav Soloveichik says in “Kol Dodi Dofek” that the Hashem has called and nullified them.
6. Rav Kahneman flew the Israeli flag at Ponevich every Yom HaAtzmaut so obviously he did not hold like you.
BTW, being that we are discussing Ponevich, Rav Edelstein says that one who does not vote in the Israeli elections is a poresh m’darchei tzibbur.
HaKatan, I cannot explain kefira taht not exist.If you are referring to my statement that Serving Hashem as best he can means first of all doing the mitzva of yishuv haaretz, I take extreme umbrage at your denigration of Ramban.
Health, I was referring to those frum Jews abroad who have businesses and professions. So far as those here are concerned, if they are really learning they are also contributing. If not and they are not working, not.
HaKatan, nobody denies that it is a mitzva. The only question is if it is a kum asseh. Secondly nobody Orthodox is cholek on keriat shema that a complete Jewish life is only possible in EY (you do say keriat shema, don’t you?). In fact, according to Ramban (Vayikra 18:25) mitzvot are only done in Shmutz l’Aretz (see Rambam Hilchot Tumat Met 11:1-3) to keep from getting rusty. You are taking EY out of the Tora. This is kefira!
The Aruch HaShulchan (OC 124:12) agrees with Dr. Uri.
Health & Hakatan,
Every 70,000 new olim equals a Knesset seat. With all of the current religious members this would make a very strong plurality. Not to mention the economic strength that the olim would command.
Serving Hashem as best he can means first of all doing the mitzva of yishuv haaretz. It is only here that one can live a full Jewish life – it is explicit in keriat shema. It may be true thrat some are not able at the moment but the sad fact is that most do ot even think that aliya is an option under any circumstances. Even worse, some come here under phony baloney “student” visas and thus cannot vote. In effect, they are removing themselevs from the public.
The rest of your contentions don’t even deserve further answer. They are simply the words of Spies.
I know a rav who stopped the davening whenever someone talked. They realized that the more they talked the later they would get out.
The problems are in part hevelei Mashiach and part the fault of frum Jews who do not make aliya, become citizens and vote.
I heard that Rav Scheinberg said that today the koach of tuma is so strong that eevn a yeshiva bachur who goes OTD can be consdidered a tinok shenishba. Rav Kook compared the spirit of the times to an evil temptress (Sanhedrin 26b Tosafot d”h hechashud) in a letter to a rav whose sons became Communists.The Chazon Ish was also of the opinion that today’s non-observant Jews are tinokot shenishbu and this is also the opinion of Rav Asher Weiss.
Brisker, you can find it in the fifth section.
E-O-M, what about not pushing away kerovim? Maybe we can have special halfway-house shuls where people talk and there is a chazan to make them think that they are in a shul. However, IMHO (based on experience0 peopel are attracted to Judaism because they are looking for Judaism. They already have places to talk. If you want to read contemporary articles on this problem just google “talking in shul”.
Rav Asher Weiss says that something which is not mentioned by Rambam, the Tur or the Shulchan Aruch (and the 3 Oaths are not) is not halacha pesuka.Moreover, Rav Chaim Vital says that they were only for 1,000 years and Rav Meir Simcha says that the San Remo Conference repealed them. Moreover, the other nations violated their end of the bargain on many occasions.
Brisker, yes it would be better if they daven at home or even not at all. Zero is more than a negative number.
The Mishna Berura says (124:27) that shul police should be appointed to preevnt this. The Kaf HaChaim says (124:37) that they should be given many punishments and embarrassed in public (apparently because they are endangering the community – the Tosafot Yom Tov blamed the Chmielnitzky massacres on this). It would seem that the same would go fore those who bring small children who are incapable of being quiet (see Mishna Berura 97:3 and Kaf HaChaim 97:13 in the name of the Shela HaKadosh that this is a triple aveira: chillul kedushat bet haknesset, gezel tefilla and negative chinuch).
Health,
1. In case you haven’t noticed, the Islamists have fantasies of re-establishing the Caliphate and either converting or killing all “infidels”. In fact, they are already slaughtering Notzrim in countries under their control.
2.According to Ramban there is a Tora obligation to conquer and settle EY, by war if necessary. As the Chafetz Chaim put it, we are all soldiers (and, as with every army, we have our Benedict Arnolds who go over to the other side).
3. Part of returning to Hashem is returning to the land He gave us and establishing a state.
4.”Kmohem Yehyu Oseyhem Kol Asher Boteyach Bohem” is going on those who have faith in other religious groups.
Imagine if all of the frum Jews of Europe had made aliya when the doors were wide open. Israel would be a completely Tora state.
In my nusach it is “Goy”. This is technically more appropriate as a general nusach as “nochri” means “foreigner” and outside Israel we are the foreigners.
Health, I am also interested in knowing what you are smoking. Because of the debts on the “Hurva” synagogue he Turks persecuted ASshkenazi olim to the extent that they had to adopt Sephardi dress (this is, in fact, the origin of the Yerushalmi robes). At the outbreak of WW1 they expelled Jews who had not taken Ottoman citizenship as they preferred their European citizenships (I wonder why). The tried to impede the Geula and lost their empire. Ditto the British.
HaKatan, and America and European countries can protect their citizens? People in the US live behind multiple locks and are afraid to go out at night. There are video cameras everywhere for security. In Europe synagogues have no outward identification and in many places one has to pass through security and show ID to enter, even on Shabbat and Yom Tov.
“Happy” in Yiddish is “fray” (pronounced like the English word). “Frei” (pronounced like “fry”) means “free” and was used by the non-observant to mean that they considered themselves free from the mitzvot.
Health, nobody is forcing them to do anything (unlike in other countries, including America, where they must teach secular subjects or not be recognized under compulsory education laws). The taxpayers will simply no longer be forced to subsidize them. If the Chareidim want to live in dire poverty they will be allowed to live in dire poverty.If they want to stand on their own feet and contribute to the country (and not just be registered as “learning”) they will be helped and encouraged.
HaKatan, you are spouting nonsense. A long list of gedolim (Rav Kook, Rav Soloveichik, Rav Kasher,etc., etc.) supported Zionism. Other gedolim may have opposed certain Zionists but any alleged statements calling Zionism per se heresy or avoda zara are extremely exaggerated and in some cases outright forgeries – in fact, there is a whole book put out by Mossad HaRav Kook called “Forged Letters Against Zionism”.
I would also mandate Science and Citizenship. A modern country simply cannot afford such a large number of people who are in a permanent state of dependency. On ther hand, I would also mandate that secular schools teach Gemara and Jewish Thought. What sanctions should be applied to those who refuse is another question. Perhaps it would be sufficient to deny welfare benefits to those who did not meet the minimum requirements as they caused their situation willfully.,
Daniel,
1. Rav Moshe does not call them kofrim (actually it would be kofrot). He says that certain beliefs are kefira.
2. He also says that a woamn may be president of a synagogue board and, in fact, an observant woman is preferable to a non-observant man.
I think it’s mainly a response to the feminist movement as well as non-Orthodox movements. I personally do not understand how a rabbi whose contract must be re-approved periodically and whose son does not inherit his postion (see Rav Shaul Yisrael, “Amud HaYemini” 12:5) is said to hold a ????. There is a title “yoetzet halacha”, which is pretty much the same thing, and is issued by the Israeli Chief Rabbinate and accepted by mainstream MO shuls in the US. While the yoetzet si generally limited to questions of taharat hamishpacha and other women’s issues, there are also liitation to various types of semicha. Only “Yadin, Yadin” allows one to be a dayan. “Yoreh, Yoreh” is a general license to pasken. YU also has a title “Rav uManhig” for men who want to teach limudei kodesh as it is considered pas nisht for such a teacher to be “a Mr.”. It also gives a designation “chaver”, which basically means that he is a learned baal bayit.
Yitz,
I did some further research and Rambam seems to say explicitly (Guide 3;40) that the government may execute people according to circumstantial evidence. This is also Rabbi Bleich’s interpretation (“Contemporary Halachic Problems” v. 2 p.365). On page 362 he also quotes Rav Tzvi Hirsch Chajes (Torat Nevi’im ch. 7) as saying that the government may even execute people according to estimation and that this appears to also be the view of the Chatam Sofer (Responsa Orech Chaim 208). He also quotes Rav Chajes as saying that rebels may even be executed for minor infractions as I previously posted to prevent a breakdown of law and order. This is his slippery slope.
As for injustices, how would you feel if c”v a loved one was murdered and the killer was set free because of lack of certainty such as the absence of witnesses (such as the case of Shimon ben Shatach and the man who chased his fellow into a ruin and came out with a bloody sword)?
Machiach Poem
Machiach Poem
The Arrival of Mashiach
To All of ‘Us’ From One of ‘Them’
‘Twas the night of the geulah,
and in every single shteibel,
sounds of Torah could be heard
coming from every kind of Yeidel.
This one in English,
some in Hebrew, some in Yiddish,
some saying pshat,
and some saying a chiddush.
And up in shamayim
The Aibishter decreed,
“The time has now come
for My children to be freed.
Rouse the Mashiach
from his Heavenly th,
have him get his chariot
and head down to Earth.”
The Mashiach got dressed,
and with a heart full of glee
went down to the Earth, and entered
the first shteibel he did see.
“I’m the Mashiach,
Hashem has heard your plea,
our geulah has come,
it is time to go free!”
They all looked up
from their learning,
this was quite a surprise.
And they looked at him carefully
with piercing sharp eyes.
He’s not the Mashiach!”
said one with a grin.
“Just look at his hat,
at the pinches and brim!”
“That’s right!” cried another
with a grimace and a frown,
“Whoever heard of Mashiach
with a brim that is down?!”
“Well,” thought Mashiach,
“If that is the rule,
I’ll turn my brim up
before I got to the next shul!”
So he walked on right over
to the next shul in town,
confident to be accepted
since his brim was no longer down.
“I’m the Mashiach!” he cried
as he began to enter.
But the Jews there wanted to know first,
if he was left, right or center.
“Your clothes are so black!:
they cried out in a fright.
“You can’t be Mashiach–
you’re much too far right!
If you want to be Mashiach,
you must be properly outfitted.”
So they replaced his black hat
with a kipa that was knitted.
Wearing his new kipa,
Mashiach went out and he said,
“No difference to me
what I wear on my head.”
So he went to the next shul,
for his mission was dear.
But he was getting a bit frustrated
with the Yidden down here.
“I’m the Mashiach!” he cried,
and they all stopped to stare.
And a completed eerie stillness
filled up the air.
“You’re the Mashiach?!”
Just imagine that.
Whoever heard of Mashiach
without a black hat?!”
But I do have a hat!”
the Mashiach then said.
So he pulled it right out
and plunked it down on his head.
Then the shul started laughing,
and one said, “Where’s your kop?
You can’t have Mashiach
wit a brim that is up!
IF you want to be Mashiach
and be accepted in this town,
put some pinches in your hat,
and turn that brim down!”
Mashiach walked out and said,
“I guess my time hasn’t really come,
I’ll just have to return
to where I came from.”
So he went to his chariot,
but as he began to enter,
all sorts of Jews appeared
from the left, right, and center.
“Please wait, do not leave,
it’s all their fault!” they said.
And they pointed to each other,
and to what was on each other’s head.
Mashiach just looked sad,
and said, “YOU don’t understand.”
And then started up his chariot
to get out of this land.
“Yes, it’s very wonderful,
that all of you learn Torah.
But you seem to have forgotten,
a crucial part of our mesorah.”
“What does he mean?
What’s he talking about?”
And they all looked bewildered,
and all began to shout.
Mashiach looked back and answered,
“The first place to start,
is to shut up your mouths,
and open up your heart.
To each of you, certain Yidden
seem too frum or too frei,
but all Yidden are beloved,
in the Aisbishter’s eye.”
And on his way up he shouted,
“IF you want me to come,
try working a little harder
on some ahavas chinam.”
CYZF Toronto 1992. This may be freely reproduced an distributed under
the following conditions:
1) That it is reproduced exactly as it appears here, including the heading,
all 30 stanzas, and this note;
2) it is distributed free of charge;
3) it is not used by any organization for promotional purposes. Any
breach of these conditions shall constitute gezel and a breach of
copyright.
Yitz,
1. The Ran says (Derasha 11) that hakpada on Tora evidentiary will lead to anarchy. Therefore , it is necessary to establish a government that will enact those laws that it deems necessary to keep public order. In fact, it can even impose the death penalty for minor offenses such as not going to where he is told to go or violating house arrest if he does so out of rebellion(Rambam Hilchot Melachim 3:5).
2. It is true that felony murder is not murder under Tora law but the government certainly has the right to consider it murder (ibid Halacha 10). The example of fire, while it is only a civil liability under Tora law, is, in my opinion, apt.Damaging by fire is liek damaging with one’s own hands. The fact that it is not a capital offense if he did not intend to murder (although he may well be considered close to meizid and thus he is thrown to the mercy of the goel hadam – and there is an opinion that a government officer has the din of goel hadam).
3. I disagree with your definition of ??? ????? ????? . It is certainly not the peshat. David HaMelech had both the ger Amaleki and two brothers who admitted killing Ish Boshet summarily executed (not even a trial) on their confession alone (Shmuel Bet 4:13) despite what Rambam says in Hilchot Sanhedrin 18:6 that we do not punish people on their confessions (not even malkot) as this may be the way out for someone who wants to die to commit suicide.
4. Even under Tora standards an innocent man might be executed. Navot was, in fact, executed according to the testimony of two witnesses. Ramban says (Devarim 19:19) that if Hashem allowed it the defendant must have been liable to the death penalty for something. In the case of Gary Graham that you once cited, as a Noahide he was certainly liable to the death penalty for his various crimes. This, of course, is not our cheshbon, but it seems that the POSSIBLY innocent men executed were guilty of various crimes for which they should have received the death penalty.
Torag613Torah, don’t be disingenuous. Given the context of trhis thread I think my intention is clear – and Hashem certainly knows it. On the other hand, according to Rambam non-Jews in EY must do national service so maybe I should include them.
I think the comparison between the different Protestant denominations and the different types of Orthodoxy is apt. The differences, at so far to my limited knowledge – it does not particularly interest me – are in nuances and shades which is also true among the different shades of Orthodoxy. In addition, Protestants move from denomination to denomination with ease depending on what is more convenient to their homes and socially appropriate for them. Similarly, all Orthodox Jews will daven in each others shuls and if someone moves to a community where there is a different type of Orthodox shul he will join it. As for assimilated Jews, I would compare them to expatriate Americans, who continue to be American citizens while being part of other countries.
Yitz,
1. There is no such thing as certainty. In any case,Rambam states (Hilchot Melachim 3:10) that the king (= government) may execute murderers without clear proof in order to fix the world according to the needs of the time.
2. In general, a Noahide is not executed for shogeg but the goel hadam may kill him (ibid 10:1). However, there are circumstances where he is close to meizid and executed (ibid). Felony murder may well be close to meizid. The case of the fire is even more severe as starting a fire is like shooting arrows. One who starts it is liable as if he did the deed with his own hands (Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat 418:17). As fora Jewish criminal, the right of a court in chutz l’Aretz to punish him is dependent on whether we consider it to be a Noahide court of a court of a partnership between Jews and Noahides (see Rav Shachter’s article on tax evasion available on-line) and if we consider it to be a Noahide court if a Noahide government court may punish Jewish criminals (the main opinion seems to be yes – cf. Rabbi Bleich’s article I mentioned). There are also opinions that government officers are like the goel hadam (ibid), which would add to the heter. An Israeli court may certainly execute him if the government would decide that the times require it (Rambam Hilchot Rotzeach 2:4 – whether the times require it is a question, Rav Yisrael Rosen says yes, Rav Aviner says no).
I am davening that all the non-learners go into the army and help in the defense of the country.
Yitz, once again Rambam is referring to a bet din, not a government court. He says so explicitly (Hilchot Melachim 3:10). As for the rules pertaining to Noahide courts, I suggest that you read Rav Bleich’s comprehensive article on capital punishment in Noahide lawt in volume 2 of “Contemporary Halachic Problems”. You might also read Iggerot Moshe Choshen Mishpat 2:68. Nowhere does he limit the requirement to following Tora evidentiary rules – and he knew full well that American courts do not.
Yitz, see Hilchot Melachim 3:10 that the government can execute people without these evidentiary rules and even without clear evidence and even someone who is not liable to the death penalty such as an enemy who killed inadvertently in order to fix the world.He can even kill many in one day and leave them hanging for many days in order to instill fear and break the hand of evildoers. He can eevn execute people for minor offenses if need be (ibid Halacha 8). I refer you again to Shmuel Bet 1:10-17. As for the slippery slope argument, this is a logical fallacy. You can say that if one is allowed to kill an animal for food he will come to kill a human for fun. It simply does not hold water.
Yitz,
1. ?????? ??”? ??? ???????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ????. ??? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??. ??? ?? ????? ?? ??????? ???????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ??????. ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? (?????’ ??) ???? ????? ?? ????? ?? ?? ????? ???. ???????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? .
Mitza (Lo Taaseh) 290 is that we should not reach a verdict by estiamtion even close to the truth such as where a pursuer chases someone into a house and the victim is found dying and his enemy is found over him with a bloody knife (this similar to the story of Shimon ben Shaatch in Sanhedrin 37b). The Sanhedrin shall not kill him on circmstantial evidence as there are not two witnesses who testify that they saw the killing as the Slomo HaMelech warns “do not kill one who innocent and righteous as I will not justify an evildoer” and the Mechilta says “and he pursues his fellow to kill him”.
Thus we see that Rambam is only referring to a bet din in a non-emergency proceeding (see Hilchot Sanhedrin 20:1 where he specifically says that this applies to a bet din).On the other hand, in Hilchot Sanhedrin 24:4 he says
?? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?????, ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???
A bet din may flog one who is not liable to be flogged and kill one who is not liable to the death penalty, not to be over on Tora but to strengthen it, being they saw that people take it lightly. They should fence in and strengthen the matter as seems necessary to them? Rav Moshe (Iggerot Moshe Choshen Mishpat 2:68) extends this explicitly to a secular court.Form the story of David HaMelech and the ger Amaleki we see that the government may even execute a person on the sole basis of his confession despite what Rambam says in Hilchot Sanhedrin 18:6 (see Hilchot Melachim 3:9 with Or Sameach and Responsa Chatam Sofer Orech Chaim 208). For a wider discussion see ??? ????? ? ?? (in Hebrew) available on-line.
2. Regarding Graham, Harris County prosecutors filed an affidavit signed by the bailiff who escorted Graham from the courtroom after his death sentence, who heard him say, “Next time, I’m not going to leave any witnesses.” A prosecutor filed an affidavit stating that the bailiff related the comment to him within minutes of the time it was allegedly made.
Harris County District Attorney Johnny Holmes noted that Graham’s case was reviewed 35 times by the courts and that his conviction was never overturned. The Supreme Court rejected Graham’s appeal in May.
3.Prosecutors have been disbarred for misconduct.The general (but not absolute) immunity is necessary as otherwise nobody would want to be a prosecutor (as in Illinois nobody wanted to be a gyneclogist until the law was changed). Chazal also discuss various immunities that were given for this purpose. A cynic would say that their misconduct is balanced by defense misconduct.
4. I also went to law school and took law courses in HS and college.
One of the alternatives was a time-clock system. A quota system would estimate how many can reasonably be thought to be actually learning full-time and eliminate the possibility of foishtick. However, it seems that some compromise law will be enacted. According to the Arutz Sheva English website “Defense Minister Moshe Ya”alon has instructed the Perry Committee to prepare legislation that stating yeshiva students will receive an extra stipend for IDF enlistment, without setting an actual limit for the number of draft exemptions to be allocated to those who prefer to continue their studies. ‘An exemption limit like 1,800 prodigies, with forced enlistment for everyone else as proposed by Yesh Atid will only promote animosity and segregation. Haredim are already enlisting without coercion, so better to wait and see how the situation develops in the future, without provocations in the present’ explained Ya’alon”.
Yitz,
1. Rambam is talking about a bet din sitting as a regular (non-emergency) court. It does not apply to the secular authorities or a bet din using emergency powers. I refer you to my previous posts, which included references to Mishna Tora and the example of David HaMelech having the ger Amaleki summarily executed on his confession alone – which is inadmissible in a regular bet din proceeding.
2. The question of prosecutorial misconduct is a technical question, not a philosophical question – which is the topic of this thread. It certainly must be addressed in a manner that will root it out (as well as defense misconduct). I find it extremely strange that Bush refused to grant a new trial – and that the decision was his and not that of a court. I also find it extremely strange that the many appellate options, both to state and Federal courts, available were not used. On the Federal level (and I assume that the Boston Marathon case inspired this thread) the precautions are greater.The protocols for approving pursuit of the death penalty are quite rigorous (they appear on-line in the DOJ publication “The Federal Death Penalty System)and include the appointment of an experienced death penalty defender to the defense team IF the request for pursuing the death penalty is approved.
Akuperma, Rambam says (Hilchot Melachim 7:4)that in a milchemet mitzva (and there is general agreement that all of Israel’s wars gave been milchamot mitzva and that there is, in fact, a continuous milchemet mitzva – see there 5:1 and Ramban Sefer HaMitzvot Mitzvot that Rambam “forgot”) all go out to the army and that strong, aggressive military police are appointed to patrol with iron cutting implements which they may use to cut off the forelegs of deserters. Rav Tzvi Yehuda did say that those who learn only need go if the Minister of Defense decides that it is necessary but nobody is saying that those who really learn all day long should be drafted, only those who do not – and certainly those who are registered in yeshivot and kollelim but in reality either waste time or work in the underground economy.
Health, what about Chareidim who don’t sit and learn but are just registered?
Rambam says (Hilchot Melachim 4:10) that one of the functions of the central government is to raise Tora. Of course, if a yeshiva does not recognize the government it should not be funded – and it is hypocritical for it to take the money.