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Patur,
1. I wrote that the person who told me is a rav who learned in YU. However, you are correct that he was not a personal talmid of Rav Gorelik. In any case, considering the fact that the same types who want to besmirch Rav Kook are also denying the extent of Rav Gorelik’s connection with YU I do not find them reliable.
2. Apparently Rav Kook was still strong enough to speak with Rav Soloveichik in learning as he instructed Rav Tzvi Yehuda to attend all of Rav Soloveichik’s shiurim (the reason he was here was that he was a candidate of Rav of Tel Aviv – in the end the electors decided that he was too young and chose Rav Moshe Avigdor Amiel).
Joseph, we have the fact that the CC walked out when someone made disparaging remarks about Rav Kook at the first Aguda convention and the letter of his his son-in-law (http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2012/05/chofetz-chaim-chazon-ish-rav-kook.html). So either Rav Gorelik never said what is said in his name or he said it with a different inflection whose meaning was that the CC did not belieev the libels against Rav Kook.
As for the soccer players, Rav Kook protested against playing on Shabbat on numerous occasions. However, he felt that sport on weekdays was a worthy activity in order to strengthen one’s body. Moreover, he felt that by by showing how sport in general can be compatible with Judaism he could bring these young men closer. Here are his exact words in a letter to Rav Yoseph Mashash in 5688 printed in ?????? ?? ????” ????’ ??”? ?????, ??’ 109 ??”?????? ????”?” (???’ ???”? ?”? ??’ 473-474, ?????’ ??? ?”? ??’ 189-190):
“????? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???, ???? ?? ?? ??????? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ????? ??????, ?????? ??? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????, ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ?????, ??? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ?????. ???? ????? ??? ??????? ????? ?????? ??? ????, ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??”? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????. ??? ???? ?? ????? ???’ ??? ?????? ????? ?????, ??? ???? ??????? ????????, ???????? ?? ??? ???, ???? ????? ?? ??? ??????. ?????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??????, ?????? (?’ ?????? ???) ???? ????? ?????? ??????. ????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?? ????? (????? ??.) ?? ‘??? ????? ????’ ??? ????? ‘??? ???? ???? ?????? ??’? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ??????, ??? ????? ??? ????? (?”? ????? ??, ??). ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????, ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????. ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ??????, ??????? ????? ??????? ????? ??”? ??????. ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????, ??? ?? ????? ?????? ???????”
This is a possibility brought down in Kabbala. For example, if Reuven dies owing money to Shimon and Shimon does not forgive him both must come back until the mon?? is repaid. See http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pagefeed/hebrewbooks_org_39936_35.pdf.
However, whether this or that individual is suffering because of that is not our concern. We only have the halachic obligation to try to help him.
1. More nonsense. In any case, we have an obligation to establish a state.
2. Actually, younger Chareidim today are generally right-wing. Certainly Sephardi Chareidim. In any case, the Arabs have made it clear that they want
EVERY Jew whose family came after 1917 to leave. This includes most Chareidim.
3. Israeli is a half-filled glass so far as religious secular is concerned. PerhapsHashem is looking at the part that is filled. Perhaps it does not matter. The time has come.
Joseph,
1. I asked a rav who is a YU grad about Rav Gorelik and he said that Rav Gorelik would never have disparaged a talmid chacham. BTW, his “talmidim” also try to deny his relationship with YU.
2. When Rav Kook spoke at the opening of the Novardok yeshiva in Bnei Brak the Chazon Ish stood saying that the Tora was standing.
3. The Netziv, Rav Shlomo HaCohen of Vilna, Rav Meir Simcha, Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank and Rav Herzog with only some of the gedolim who supported establishing a state. Again, I refer you to the two volume set ?????? ???.
“The Muslims have never objected to Jews living Torah-based lives” This is errant nonsense. Rambam wrote “Iggeret HaShmad” in the wake of forced conversions of Jews in Morocco. In Yemen fatherless Jewish children under thirteen were forceably placed in Moslem homes to be raised as Moslems (unless they were married – which is why girls whose fathers died r”l were quickly married off by their families). There were also forced conversions in Bukhara and Persia, among other places.
We have a mitzva to conquer EY (Ramban, Sefer HaMitzvot, Mitzvot that Rambam “forgot”). Having a flag, a government, etc. is critical. As for the Islamic world’d ability to wage war, the Zohar says at the end of parashat Balak that they and the Western world will destroy each other and then Mashiach will come.
I propose a population exchange – Arabs in EY for Americans who are halachically Jewish. Details can be worked out by a detail person.
MW13, Rav Aviner also said that segulot for parnassa work for those who sell them. Of course, if the baker is struggling this might be a surreptitious way to give him tzedaka. However, if they use them for Shabbat there is also a question of whether or not they are considered lechem mishna as they are not complete being that the keys pierced them. In any case, I just hope that those who partake don’t break their teeth on the keys, and certainly do not get metal poisoning c”v.
[10] There was another massacre in Barfurush in 1867.
Daas, that is not a debunking. It is merely a statement that it is found in Chassidic works. In fact, he admits that there are no earlier Jewish sources. Perhaps they were trying to justify Jewish folk customs that came about from seeing gentile customs. One modern example is the Chanuka bush. Other examples are red strings (see Tosefta Shabbat 7:1) and the hamsa hand. The fact that poskim did not protest does not necessarily mean that they approved. Rather they did not think that people would listen and preferred that they be shoggagim and not meizidim.
“The baking of a key inside a bread is a non-Jewish custom which has its foundation in Christian, and possibly even earlier, pagan culture. At least one old Irish source tells how at times when a town was under attack, the men said, ‘let our women-folk be instructed in the art of baking cakes containing keys.
The modern Jewish custom of baking the symbolic shlissel challah, annually takes place on the shabbat immediately following the holiday of Pessah, when tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of religiously observant Jewish women practice this observance.
Joseph, two million is a gross exaggeration. Demographers have proven that the PA’s figures are inflated. In an case, there may not be a practical solution right now. If so Netanyahu’s policy of not doing anything is correct. Ideally, they should be given generous resettlement allowances by an international fund in order to permanently emigrate to various countries that need moneyed immigrants or to establish a state on some island. In fact, polls show that the majority would leave if they had somewhere to go – and these are the ones who are willing to admit it to a pollster.
Joseph, actually there are two Mashiachs: Mashiach ben Yoseph and Mashiach ben David. Rabbi Hillel Rivlin, in “Kol HaTor”, quotes his rebbe the Gra as saying that the job of the first is kibbutz galuyot and building the material side of EY and the job of the latter is to build the spiritual side. Rav Kook believed (“Hesped b’Yerushalayim” printed in “Mamari HaRayah”) that Herzl, or perhaps the Zionist movement in general, was the former and explains why it opposed religion. He has been proven correct by history.
Joseph, you are a notorious libeler. I suggest that you and Daas read ?????? ???”, which details a long list of gedolim from various eidot who supported Zionism.
Joseph, dude,
1. “For hundreds of years prior to Zionism (note: prior to Zionism – not prior to Israel) there were not nearly as many as Jews killed in Palestine”. What about the Crusades, Chmielnitzki massacres, blood libels and pogroms? The numbers you cite are nothing compared to the dead and injured in those attacks.
2. Again, you are blaming the victim (not that you are alone – someone wrote a book blaming the Boston Marathon bombing on the difficulties immigrants have in America). According to your logic we should all assimilate. If there will be no Jews no Jews will be killed. In fact, there will be no anti-Semitism although some other scapegoat will surely be found.
3. Almost nobody held like the Brisker Rav. In fact, the head of Agudat Yisrael in Eretz Yisrael, Rav. Y.Y. Levin signed the Declaration of Independence.
4. In “Em HaBanim Semeicha Rav Teichtal brings down that the Gra (quoted by his talmid Rabbi Hillel Rivlin, in “Kol HaTor”) said that just before the time of Mashiach the sin of the spies will infect some who hold on to the Tora. Rav Kook was a bit gentler. He said that anti-Zionism came from a misconception of Judaism. Unfortunately, many accepted this misconception and as a result turned their backs on Judaism.
Joseph, the canard about Jews living peacefully under Moslem rule is utter nonsense. Just to give one example, in the middle of the 19th century, J. J. Benjamin wrote about the life of Persian Jews:
This, in fact, was the general lot of Jews in Moslem countries. As for your despicable attempt to blame Zionism for Jews dying in wars and terrorist attacks, why not blame the desire for cars for traffic deaths? This a typical blame the victim tactic used by our enemies.
On the contrary, Yekke. Rav Meir Simcha was a Zionist who personally contributed to the JNF. As for why our enemies hate us, the initiator of the Holocaust wrote explicitly in his book that he hated us because we brought morality to the world. Our enemies now see that the establishment of the State of Israel was a giant step towards a Jewish Yerushalayim as the legal and moral center of the world and they are trying desperately to stop it as they want it either to be in Brussels or in some Caliphate.
To say that the government is anti-religious is a blood libel! the government is mainly secular but Jewish holidays are legal holidays, Shabbat is a legal day of rest, etc., etc. Except for a daat yachid (which Rav Teichtal says in “Em HaBanim Semeicha” is the sin of the spies) agreed that it is a mitzva. Of course, if someone does not have transferable job skils, is middle-aged, etc. he may be temporarily exempt but one has to examine his situation periodically to see if he is still exempt.
The test is to offer to take him to a restaurant or buy him food in a supermarket on condition that he give you all of his cigarettes. If he agrees (and he might not – my grandfather a”h once offered to take a beggar to a restaurant and he said that he wanted money) and then you see him smoking again he is probably not deserving (although you never know – maybe someone gave him cigarettes). This, BTW, is also true regarding wearing nice shoes, etc. Maybe someone gave them to him. However, if one’s tzedaka ability is very limited IMHO he should pick and choose his beneficiaries.
The Sephardim use “Chacham”. I know someone who calls me “Chacham Avraham” whenever he wants something.
He created people who ask such questions. Chazal definitely had a sense of humor. See for example Sanhedrin 113a (at the bottom)-b (at the top).
American Yerushalmi, it is not true that “Before the establishment of the state, nearly all gedolei Yisroel opposed the idea in the stronger terms possible.” In fact, a long list of gedolim were in favor. Rav Meir Simcha (who personally contributed to the JNF) Rav Kook, Rav Soloveichik, Rav Moshe, Rav Henkin and Rav Dessler to name a few. Fortunately THEIR words were heeded and the yishuv did the mitzva (Ramban, Sefer HaMitzvot, Mitzvot that Rambam “forgot”) of establishing the State (with the signature of then head of Agudat Yisrael in EY, Rav Y> Y. Levin).
Akuperma, in Rambam’s time there was no IDF and no possibility or organizing one. He took the job because he needed the money and at the time the Moslems for whom he worked were not oppressing the Jews. The proper analogy would be a frum Jew taking a job as a physician to Obama.
Akuperma, it is a Tora mitzva to conquer EY (Ramban Sefer HaMitzvot, Mitzvot that Rambam “forgot”). Slackers are not only ignoring this but violating the mitzva to participate in an obligatory war (Rambam Hilchot Melachim 5:1-2)
On the contrary, Akuperma. Becoming RZ is going ON the derech. As for serving in the IDF, if one is not going to learn full time for real he must do his part and serve (unless he has a medical deferment). Otherwise he is a slacker.
Ask Rav Sperling – Chapstick on Shabbat
By: Rabbi Da’vid Sperling
Answer:
Shalom,
I am sorry to hear that you are suffering on Shabbat from dry skin. In treating this on Shabbat there are two issues at hand. The first is the law against applying medicines in cases where one is not classified as “sick” but only suffering from mild discomfort. In such cases the use of medicines or medical treatments is forbidden by a rabbinic decree. This would seem to prohibit the treatment of your dry skin on Shabbat in any fashion. However there are several possible ways that this may none the less be allowed. Firstly, if you apply the treatment before the skin gets irritable it is not considered as medical treatment to cure a problem, but rather making sure that one does not get sick. This is akin to applying sun block oil before going outside, which is allowed as it is only a preventative measure (as opposed to putting oil on burnt skin, which is a cure). Secondly, if the medical procedure is normally carried out by people not suffering at all it is also allowed. So drinking lemon and honey tea to alleviate a mild sore throat is allowed, as people would drink it even when perfectly healthy. So because eating an oily salad is normal behaviour, you could eat it and let the oil alleviate your chapped lips in the process. Lastly, if the dry skin is of such a serious nature that it may crack and get infected then it would be considered as in the category of a sickness that one is allowed to treat on Shabbat if one does not break any other Shabbat laws (though in general dry lips and skin do not fall into this definition, it could be that one has an extreme case of eczema etc then this would be the case).
Based on all this I can suggest the following – if your skin is not yet cracked you should find a liquid lotion to apply on Shabbat. If you can’t find one, you could water down (or “oil down”) a thicker one until it is runny. As for your lips, I have seen clear liquid “roller-ball” lip treatments, which might be of help to you. As they are liquid, and apply no colour to the lips, they are acceptable on Shabbat.
If the skin is already chapped and irritable, then I can suggest eating food dipped in oil, and letting the oil soak into and over your lips, which may provide some help.
Blessings, Rav Sperling.
He also prohibits courses where the teacher is “so-called religious without a smattering of Torah spirit”. In other words, he would even prohibit a Chareidi course if one of the teachers is “not Chareidi enough”.
Zehavasdad, it’s very difficult to grin when you cannot move because of starvation. IMHO (and we are already seeing this with the overtures of working Chareidim to Eli Yishai) people will not go OTD in the sense of not keeping Shabbat, etc. However, they will ignore pronouncements like the one at the top of this thread, learn professions and go to work in the geenral economy. Perhaps they will form a coalition with the Chardal sector both politically and religiously.
The danger is that they will get out of poverty and dependence. Then the askanim two control them will be in big trouble. They might even vote for Yachad c”v.In contrast Yeshivat Har Beracha has a Torani professional training program in conjunction with Ariel University and, of course, there are Machon Lev and the kollel in Bar-Ilan.
Reality check: it is prohibited to rely on miracles (see, for example, Iggerot Moshe, Orach Chaim 2:111 and 4:48 on buying insurance). if you have a lucrative profession and are willing to work full-time while juggling kids and your huband has a future in Tora (= he has the potential to be a r”m/rosh yeshiva/rav/dayan) then it is possible. However, if you do not have such a profession (kollelim pay very little – when they pay) you are heading for a life a poverty.If you do not mind that is your decision but you should go in with open eyes. Moreover, if your husband is just going to warm a chair in a bet midrash it is really questionable if it is even permitted l’chatchila. Better that the place should go to someone who has a reasonable future in Tora and you and your husband support Tora institutions.
1. On the contrary, Voos. A state is mandated by the Tora. See Rambna, Sefer HaMitzvot, mitzvot that Rambam “forgot”.
2. Even in a Tora state the punishments for aveirot ben adam laMakom will not be enforceable because of the procedural problems and technicalities of acceptable proof. The king (or whatever governmental authority there will be) only has authority regarding aveirot ben adam l’chaveiro as stated by the Avnei Nezer in Yoreh Deah 312:50:
?????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????
??? ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?????? .?????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ???
????? ????.
Randmex, I did not write someone who has a job but someone who has a secular profession (i.e not Tora chinuch, safrut, etc.). I also did not say anything about being “left”. Actually, this term is somewhat misleading in regards to Jewish hashkafot as it originated in the French National Assembly, where the monarchists sat on the right and the republicans on the left. Thus getting a job should put someone on the right as he is upholding tradition whereas living on tzedaka as an ideology is left (this is especially true in the US, where the Left has created a welfare culture and the Right opposes it).
I would say someone who learns and applies his learning, has a Talmudic way of thinking and is also knowledgeable in secular matters and has a secular profession.
Text of the Agreement
Agreement Between Emir Feisal and Dr. Weizmann (relvant articles)
3 January 1919
Article I
The Arab State and Palestine in all their relations and undertakings shall be controlled by the most cordial goodwill and understanding, and to this end Arab and Jewish duly accredited agents shall be established and maintained in the respective territories.
Article II
Immediately following the completion of the deliberations of the Peace Conference, the definite boundaries between the Arab State and Palestine shall be determined by a Commission to be agreed upon by the parties hereto.
Article III
In the establishment of the Constitution and Administration of Palestine, all such measures shall be adopted as will afford the fullest guarantees for carrying into effect the British Government’s Declaration of the 2nd of November, 1917.
Article IV
All necessary measures shall be taken to encourage and stimulate immigration of Jews into Palestine on a large scale, and as quickly as possible to settle Jewish immigrants upon the land through closer settlement and intensive cultivation of the soil. In taking such measures the Arab peasant and tenant farmers shall be protected in their rights and shall be assisted in forwarding their economic development.
Thus we see that the Arab leadership agreed to a Jewish state in the Ottoman province of Palestine – and this was in 1919 when it included what is now Jordan. Later, the Mufti of Yerushayim ym”s caused trouble in order to gain personal power. However, opposing one group cannot be called rebellion. In any case, the vast majority of the other nations supported establising a Jewish state.
Somebody will have to pasken this machloket before someone is mekadesh a woman on condition that NKniks are one or the other. LOL
Lior, according to the Wikipedia article they are descended from both Lithuanian and Hungarian Jews whereas according to the Jewish Virtual library they are mainly of Hungarian descent. I would imagine that their ideology would attract Satmar Chassidim (who originated in Hungary). In any case, all agree that they are are miniscule group.
Yosi,
1. His name was Hillel Rivlin. One of his descendants was Shlomo Zalman Rivlin, who published it without the more esoteric parts but did not write it. It was accepted as authentic by Rav Teuchtal, Rav Tzvi Yehuda (Kook) and Rav Menachem Kasher.
2. The descendants of the Gra are numerous. It could be that some drifted into NK but they are actually a branch of Satmar.
3. How many proofs do I need? Do I have to repeat each one 400 times like Rav Preida (Eruvin 54b).
Rabbi, see Shmirat Shabbat K’Hilchata 9:17 with footnote 61 that according to some it is tikkun mana as the cap becomes a keli. However, you are correct that some differentiate between plastic and metal caps (they say that the plastic cap was already a cap before being put on whereas a metal cap was not).
Yosi, where did I slip up (unlike you, I capitalized all the proper letters)and how is it apropos?
DaMoshe, for that matter, why isn’t there a heated debate about opening bottles on Shabbat? According to the machmirs the meikals are mechallelei Shabbat d”Oraita.
There is no analogy. This is a halachic debate with major poskim on both sides. Most opinions turn around the question of whether or not there are areas where a tamei met can definitely walk and whether those who go can keep the halachot of moreh hamikdash. Whether or not we should “provoke” Moslems (as if our very existence is not already a “provocation) is a political and military question and thus the legitimate purview of politicians and military leaders.
Frumnotyeshivish is correct. When the British tried to pressure Rav Kook and Rav Sonnenfeld into conceding that the Kotel belongs to the Arabs both steadfastly refused. BTW, according “Ish al HaHoma”, when Rav Sonnenfeld was asked why he used Shaar Shechem to enter the Old City he said “kibush Eretz Yisrael”.
Patur, we have the promise of the Geula and that it will come in stages (Yerushalmi Berachot 1:1). Moreover, the Gra sent his talmidim to EY to pave the way. According to “Kol HaTor” of Rabbi Hillel Rivlin he held that Moshiach ben Yosef’s job is kibbutz galuyot and building the material side of EY and that in the time just before Mashiach the sin of the spies would attach itself to many Tora Jews. Rav Teichtal in “Em HaBanim Semeicha” seconds him. Those who cannot see the miracles of Israel’s birth and progression are truly blind.
Bp, are you kidding? Read “In Ishmael’s House” by Sir Martin Gilbert and “From Time Immemorial” by Joan Peters.At best the Jews were relegated to humiliations as “dhimmi” and at worst were murdered on the whim of some potentate.
Yossi,
1. How does Ramban say that when he holds that conquering EY is a mitzva in every generation? As for the other sources you cited, I wil have to see exactly what they say. In any case, why should we pasken like the Minchat Eliezer against the Avnei Nezer, Rav Meir Simcha, Rav Soloveichik, Rav Kook and others?
2. Here is what the midrash says regarding Bar Kochba:
????? ??? ???? ???? ? ???? ? ?? ???? ?? ?? ?????:
“????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ????? (??? ?????? ??????? – ?? ????? ??? ?????) ??? ??? ????? (????? ?’)
??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?????????” ??? ??? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ?????????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?????. ??? ?? ?”? ????? ??. (???? ????)
??? ???? ????? ???? ???????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???”? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??? (???????) ???? ????? (?????). ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ????????. ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ??????? ??”? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ??’ ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ?’ ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ???????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?”? ??? ???? ??? ?”? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??????? ???????? ??????? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ?’ ????? ?????? ??? ??????? ?”? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?”? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ????? (????? ?”?) ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ??????.
He was arrogant and wanted to go it alone without Hashem.However, Rabbi Akiva supported him so apparently he wasn’t concerned about the oaths.
3. The persecution in Teiman was only a local persecution.
Patur, as I posted, we do not hold that theSatan acts as Gd’s opponent. That is another religion. The Satan is a shaliach of Hashem. Maybe his job was to incite the Arabs so that we would get more land.
Mdg, ???? means conquer.here are some proofs:
?????? ?”?-?”?
“?????????????? ??? ???? ???????? ??????? ???????????…
?????????????? ??? ??????? ???????????? ????? ???? ????? ????????…”
??”?, ???? ?”?:
?”? ???????: ???????.
???? ?”?:
?”? ??????? ?? ????: ??????? ???? ???????, ??? “?????? ??”, ????? ??????? ??, ??? ??? -?? ????? ??????? ??.
????? ??? ?”? ???? ?”?:
?”? ???????: ??????? ???????, ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ??, ???? ?????? ???????, ??? ????? ??????.
????? ??? ?”? ???? ?”?:
?”? ?????: ??????? ?????. ????? ??”? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ?????, ???? ????? ??????.
???”?, ???? ?”?:
?”? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ??: ?? ????, ?? ???? ??? ???, ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???, ??? ????? ????? ?’. ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ???????? ??, ????? ?? ???? ?’. ??? ??????? ??????? (?????? ?”? ?’) ????? ?????? ???? ?????, ?????? ???? ????, ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????, ??? ????, ???? ???????? ????? ???, ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???. ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ????, “???? ???? ?? ????” (????? ?’ ?’). ??? ??”? ????, “??????? ?? ????”, ??????? ???? ???????, ?? “?????? ??”, ????? ??????? ??, ??? ??? – ?? ????? ??????? ??, ??? ??????? ??? ?????.
???”?, ???????? ???? ?????? ?????”? ???? ????? ???:
????? ??? ??? ???? ??? (????”?) ?????? ??? ??? ??? ????”?:
??????:
?”? ??????? ?? ????: ???? ????? ????? ????, ?? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??????, ??? ?? ????? ????, ?? ?? ?? ???? ????? ?? ????, ?? ???? ??????? ??????.
Ramban holds that there are two mitzvot: a mitva on Am Yisrael to conquer the Land and a mitzva on the individual to live in it. This si shown by the following:
???? ????”? (????????? ???? ?????? ??
“?[????] ?? ??? ??????? ????? ???? (???? ?”? ?”?): ‘????? ????’. ??? ???? ???? ???? (?? ?? ?”?): ‘??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????, ????? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ????’…
…??????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ?? ??????. ??? ???? ??????? ?? [????] ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ???? ?????. ???????? ??????? ????????.
??????? ‘????? ????? ?????’ ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??????… ??? ??????? ?????? ??? ??????”.
????? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ??.
“????? ??? ?? ????? ???????? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?????, ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ???… ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???????? ???? ???? ????? ??. ?? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ????”.
In any case, no one has brought a refutation to my points that
1. The deal is off because the goyim violated their part of the bargain (see my citation from the Shulchan Aruch)
2. The goyim gave us permission so it’s not rebellion (Rav Meir Simcha) and
3. Hashem has called (Rav Soloveihcik)
BP,
1. On the contrary it is a Tora mitzva to have a state (Devarim 17:14 and see He’emek Devar that this includes a democracy).
2. Jews were prevented from leaving Europe by the British and Americans (who refused to ease immigration quots even slightly) as well as rabbanim who told them not to leave.
Randomex, until now the Chareidim have “forgotten” that getting a job is fully within Orthodox Judaism.
Tzviki and Patur, what does a milchemet reshut have o do with this discussion. According to Ramban (Sefer HaMitzvot, mitzvot that Rambam “forogt” there is a mitzva to wage war to conquer EY in our time. According to Rambam (Hilchot Melachim 5:1) any war to save Jews is a milchmet mitzva. Rav Herzog wrote in a letter to Ben-Gurion:
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Rav Ovadia (see Yalkut Yosef 128:78) wrote:
????? ??????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????, ??? ????? ??????? ??????, ????? ????? ?????? ?????, ??? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ????, ???? ??????? ?’ ????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ?????, ?????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ?????
When Rav Tzvi Yehuda (Kook) was told about the Satanist claim he responded that he was acquainted with the Satan. In any case, to say that the Satan acts without Hashem’s permission and even against His will is a tenet of another religion. Of course, it could be that Hashem wanted to confuse the Satan so he sent him to harden the Arabs’ hearts. Who knows? Maybe He sent the Satan to prevent frum Jews from coming in droves and turning Israel into a Tora state because we are not ready.
As for the machloket between the Aguda and Mizrahi, I heard that both Rav Soloveichiik and Rav Kook compared them to Yosef’s stick and Yehuda’s stick – which will eventually be united. In fact, we see that the National Religious are becoming more frm and yeshivish and the Chareidim are moving out into the general job market.
@Veyoel Moshe, are you referring to the Iranians who are supported by the NK?
The Shalosh Shevuot are a halachic non-starter.
1. They are aggadata not halacha. In fact, none of the codes (Mishna Tora, Tur, Shulchan Aruch, Rema) mention them nor do the Rif, the Rosh or the Nossei Keilim.In fact, Ramban (Sefer HaMitzvot, Mitzvot that Rambam “Forgot”) states that there is a Tora mitzva to conquer EY is our time.
2, In his introduction to Sefer Etz Chaim, Rav Chaim Vital writes that they were only for 1,000 years.
3. According to Rav Meir Simcha the San Remo Conference’s vote in favor of a Jewish state obviated teh oaths as it is no longer a rebellion.
4. The goyim violated their oath not to persecute us “too much” on several occasions (the Crusades, the Chmielnitzki massacres, the pogroms, the Holocaust). Thus, the deal is off(Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 236:6).
5. According to Rav Soloveichik (“Kol Dodi Dofek”) the miracles of the War of Independence show that Hashem has called.
Akuperma, there is another way. To show the Arabs that violence will be crushed. giving up Zionism will not work. Look at all the non-Zionists who are being beheaded. As for the rest of the world, they vote one way and act another. As for going off the derech, Rav Kook explains that in his day in Europe it was caused by anti-Zionism. And what about all the frum kids in America who go off the derech? According to Faranak Margolese (“Off the Derech”) it is mainly because of religious figures who behave negatively (as predicted by Chazal – Yoma 86a).
Tviki, on the contrary, it is not permitted to appoint a leader without asking the public (Berachot 55a). Even gezeret of Chazal needed to be accepted. Thus, tevillat Ezra and the gezera on gentile oil had to be rescinded
Akuperma,
1. Israel today is recognized as a regional powerhouse both militaily and economically. The US in fact needs it as a bulwark aaginst terrorism. The rest of the world does not regard Zionists as criminals but only rejects settleemnt in Yehuda v’Shomron and eevn thee the objections are mainly lip service and a few meaningless boycotts of products that hurt Arab workers much more than Israelis.
2. Nonsense. In fact, Rav Ovadia said that without the IDF there would be no yeshivot. No one is forced to adopt a secular lifestyle. Far greater damage is doen by the poitical intrigues carried out to keep the Chareidi separate from the rest of the public.
3. More nonsense. Read Martin Gilbert’s “In Ishmael’s Garden” and Joanne Peters’ “From Tme Immemorial”. In fact, the Moslem world is now at war with everyone else in fulfillment of the verse that Ishmael’s hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand will be against him. Moreover, no one says that the price of peace is to give up Tora. Some still cling to the delusion that the price is giving up land but apparently they are so wedded to their conception that it is emotionally impossible for them to give it up.