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minyan avreichem on rechov grossberg should have. its next to rav dovid soloveitchiks ztz”l yeshiva, which is off of eli hacohen/bar ilan. i know for sure they had kedoshim, so they probably have the other parshos as well.
beautiful
@yabia Omer
don’t you have better things to do than to nitpick at the way someone spells things? he said over a beautiful vort. be consistent to your complaints and don’t focus on the chitzonius (the spelling or pronunciation) but focus on the penimius (the Dvar Torah). is this what jews in 2021 are complaining about? really? the way someone spells Nachamu??its worthwhile to point out over here that in israel you can get a green passport in 3 ways:
1. take both doses of the vaccine
2. recover from corona (lasts only 6 months)
3. test positive for antibodiesnow this is significant for the coffee-room-conspirators to know because it shows very clearly that they DO understand that there is natural immunity. only after 6 months you need to show you are still immune and it didnt go away.
i make used to make pickles all the time. after 3 days of fermenting you get a geshmacke slightly-more-than half sour pickle. very good, very easy, and good health benefits
those are some very strong words about rav kook. considering that rav chaim ozer, rav boruch ber, rav hutner, rav isser zalman, and rov litvishe rabbonim viewed him as the gadol hador id be very careful about what you say. the chofetz chaim maysa is a bunch of garbage as well and has been disproved ages ago. i dont care what circulates in the yeshivishe velt, that doesnt make it true
mincha is because they have a different shkiya. their shkiya is rabbeinu tam so they can daven much later. i have no answer for zman tefilla
it’s impossible to uncouple it because music is such a powerful thing. rashi says that acher went off the derech because of zemer yavani, and there were leviim that were able to get nevua through music. music is an inherently spiritual thing and we should be careful about what we listen to because we don’t know what kind of effects it could have on us
2 points. as other people have pointed on ywn, i hear lsheim rav moshe wolfson that the rebbes and the older tzadikkim had the ability to make a niggun kadosh even when its source was tamei. nowadays we do not have these kochos. the second thing is that music is a reflection of its times and of the hashkafos of the people behind it. music thats coming from a society of being vild and hefker is obviously going to have a negative hashpa on a person, even if a frum guy put non-offensive words to it. and also the music back then was nowhere near as disgusting as it is today. people had a certain standard, today anything flies and the music in general is repulsive. and remember that music has a tremendous koach, some were able to get nevua through music and rashi even says about acher that he went off because of zemer yevani. do you really want to listen to music that’s rooted in such filth? a guy takes a song talking about unspeakable things and puts some jewish words to it and that all of a sudden makes it jewish music?
copper bronze and brass also never rust because of the low iron content and they last a very long time as well, but they aren’t expensive. gold is expensive because it’s pretty and popular. yet it was the standard currency for hundreds of years (prob more forgot my history) across the world. when i say meaning i don’t mean it like a word definition, i mean value people give it.
“The Chazon Ish is in line with the tzaavah of Reb Avrohom Danzig: the author of Chayai Adam. There was a point in history that yidden thought that way. About everything. So what?” explain this please. are you maybe more enlightened than the chazon ish, rav hutner, rav chaim, rav avigdor miller (if you want me to i can find more rabbonim who are in support of this idea) and every single chassidishe rebbe?
“People attach all kinds of silly ideas to the black hat. There is no reason for someone who is growing without one, to get mixed up in it.” mixed up in what? it’s just a dress hat. nothing to get mixed up in. then a lot of times you have rebbeim telling their talmidim to wear a hat. there should be no such decision making if levush made zero difference
“Who said the world put chashivus into it? It is the same shirt as before. That was exactly the point the Rosh Yeshiva I quoted before was trying to make.” the world gave chashivus to it when every single chassidishe sefardi and litvishe yeshiva requires it. the fact that it became the standard in the yeshivishe world now gives it chashivus. also please don’t quote me an anonymous rosh yeshiva from the ywn coffeeroom. i don’t know if that’s the most reliable source of information out there.
@gadolhadorah
the alma mater in camps is slow and emotional and they also change the words, so this works perfectly. they dont just sing a full song with the original lyrics lolmemories by abie rotenberg is sounds pretty good. easy and emotional
it’s not contradictory at all. the white shirt itself is meaningless, it could have been a blue or yellow shirt, who cares. but now that the world put chashivus into it, it now has chashivus. the same as anything. things only have value when people put meaning into it and then it has value (except for Torah). why does gold have value? because people made it valuable. care to explain rav hutner rav chaim and the chazon ish? pretty sure the chazon ish even held that people should be wearing reklech. still waiting on that. also waiting on why kiruv rebbeim tell baalei teshuva to wait before waiting on a hat. i know a bt whos been wanting to put one one for months but his rebbe kept telling him no. if it’s “just a dress hat” then why would that be?
so please explain to me why my friends who go home with payos hat and jacket don’t have problems with
people talking to them inappropriately or inviting them to inappropriate places, while the boys who kept their levush from before all have these issues? if what you’re saying is true, then it should make zero difference. it should be “okay this guy likes to wear a dress hat very nice, very cool. so you wanna go to to x y or z?”. when they see his levush change they realize he stands for something else now, that he identifies as a ben Torah so he doesn’t want to talk about or do these things. and then you know what? when that boy looks in the mirror he sees the levush a ben Torah and he’s going to have the mindset of a ben Torah. i’ve seen it plenty in my life.“The fact that people perceive some symbolism in the black hat, does not change what it is. A dress hat. No more, no less.” so gold is just a piece of metal. diamond is just some compressed carbon. the fact that people decided it looked pretty and made it expensive does not change what it is. compressed carbon. no more, no less. while you are right to some extent, there is a reality in the world that now it has more value because people gave it value. otherwise gold and diamonds would be dirt cheap, like any other rock. the only thing that has value no matter what people do is the Torah. other than that everything is inherently meaningless until meaning is put into it.
@sam klein of course we shouldn’t judge, but we do. we naturally do, thats how it is. and the Torah knows that, it says dan lkaf zchuas, mashma that youre going to judge somebody no matter what, so judge positively. when you see an 80 year old man with a frock and an uphat and two bochurim walking behind him youre going to think hes a choshuve rosh yeshiva or something along those lines. is that bad? is that wrong? and more than that, if a person wants to be seen as ben Torah then he should dress like one. if not, then not. the nature of people is to judge.
you also didnt give me an answer about rav chaim or the chazon ish or rav hutner. “There are times when it has a positive effect.”. so you are maskim. if it has an effect on how other people view said person, then its a two way streak. the person is going to also view himself differently, and therefore hold himself to different standards because of the levush he’s wearing. you aren’t thinking realistically. why is that kiruv rebbeim tell bts not to put a hat on so fast? why don’t flip outs who wear hats and jackets have to deal with the same thing that their friends who don’t wear them do? when this guys old friends see his payos and his hat and jacket they know that he stands for something else so he won’t be invited to do the same things as before, otherwise the “raincoat” would simply never work. the very fact that it works it all shows that there is an inherent chashivus and expression of religiosity in wearing it
“this makes the case that there should be meaning associated with yeshivish clothing, because again, it gives a person what to identify with and standards to uphold for himself. i know people first hand that were able to get out of certain situations because of the white shirt and black pants. it’s an expression of how religious a person is.” please respond to this
in response to: “It could very well be that Rav Miller zt”l intended the opposite. The levush has no meaning. Since people tend to look for meaning in random places, he made up some positive thinking that could go into our standard clothing. His point is that they should think more. Not just dress the part.”
youre right about thinking more for sure, but definitely not about the dress part. ” It’s the
great achievement of demonstrating our loyalty to Hashem with
our clothing, our externalities, that has given the Am Yisroel the
merit to continue to exist. And therefore, the more we use our
clothing and externalities to serve Hashem, the more we preserve
the existence of the Am Yisroel forever and ever. ” theres no reading in between the lines over here. it’s clear as day what he’s saying. he’s saying very clearly that its both dress the part and think the part.and why would a yu boy every put on a hat? or really why would anyone ever wear a hat? if it really didn’t matter then the yeshivos would have changed it by now, or better yet they never would’ve done it in the first place. the fact that they all made a levush and kept it shows that it means at least something, otherwise they could have just made a dress code of you must wear a collared shirt or look mentschlech. why does rav chaim want people to wear payos? why did the chazon ish want people to wear payos? why is that when rav hutner ztz”l heard that the temanim called their payos simanim he started growing them? its pashut, levush. makes. a difference. it isn’t everything, not even close, but does something for sure.
well yeah obviously there’s only meaning after a group gives it meaning. nobody’s going to say that a white shirt itself is chashuv. and all the other gedolim would be every single rosh yeshiva or moised that makes its bochurim wear white shirts, because by doing so they’re subscribing to this idea. (i’m not saying that anyone who didn’t isnt a gadol) so this means that every single rosh yeshiva out there be it sefardi litvish or chassidish (outside of yu chofetz chaim and mizrachi places, and even by cc they mandate wearing a hat, and a lot of yu bochurim do wear hats as well). and when these are the people that put meaning into a black hat, our rabbonim and our gedolim, we can absolutely trust that its justified.
this makes the case that there should be meaning associated with yeshivish clothing, because again, it gives a person what to identify with and standards to uphold for himself. i know people first hand that were able to get out of certain situations because of the white shirt and black pants. its an expression of how religious a person is.
“Whatever motivations Rav Miller had for the essay, is not my concern. I trust him, that he knew what he was doing.” it should be! because he wrote for it a very obvious reason, he wrote it very clearly so people should understand that levush is not meaningless. that’s exactly the point of his essay. that people should feel the chashivus of when they walk around dressed like a ben Torah and understand who and what they’re identifying with then they do so. it is abundantly clear what he’s trying to accomplish in his essay
no i didnt mean a specific tv show. i just meant any tv show. obviously if you see a guy wearing a shirt brandishing his favorite show his showing the world hes a fan of said show because hes proud of it. same as with a mets cap or a band shirt or anything of the sort.
its also not an inconsistency because its a two way thing. it serves as both an identification and it has an impact at the same time. like kohen gadol who puts his begadim on it has an impact, and at the same time hes showing the world that hes the kohen gadol and hes identifying with that. whats the contradiction?
and it happens to be specifically for the yeshiva world they almost always dress like that for most activities, but thats because they always want to be identifying with said world all the time. a business man i guarantee you does not chill in his suit and tie, and neither does any worker. so bring a proof from a ben Torah isnt so good, because theyre trying to identify and remind themselves always
and last question. were rav avigdor miller ztz”l and all the other gedolei yisroel wrong in putting meaning into it?
“the essay says they are silly because it is just a game. But if any hat makes the thinking wearer proud, than the wearer of the mets cap would be proud when they win. And, the makers of the cap want people to think more about the mets, so it is a similar idea to the paragraph above.” thats the point, its this very fact that shows that a person by wearing a mets hat is showing chashivus to something worthless. so we see how good a black hat is, the wearer is saying that he gives chashivus to yarei shamayim and Torah by wearing a black hat. rav miller concludes that people wear what they wish to identify with and that has an automatic impact on how the person feels, so therefore a person should dress like a ben Torah. youre reading in between the lines too much when its a pashute article with a very obvious point.
and its for sure similar to tzis tzis, if you look into the reason why were supposed to wear techeiles as well as what looking at tzis tzis does in general its pashut. not sure what that has to do with anything.
and no its not true. rav avigdor miller was saying that its an automatic thing that happens when the kohen gadol puts on the begadim so its showing us the chashivus of wearing begadim putting on the garb of a ben Torah (as well as tzis tzis).and i have to disagree with what you said over here as well “Standard dress, is not part of any activity. People who dress a certain way (in a traditional sense) will always wear their outfit, regardless of what the activity is.” . when a choshuve business man is working, hes not going to wear the same clothes as when hes chilling. he has his work clothes, same with a factory worker and with anyone really. a limo driver isnt going to be wearing his fancy tux when hes at home watching tv. people dress according to what theyre doing. when i go to a friends pool i throw on a tshirt and a bathing suit. when i go to play sports or go hiking il also dress differently, the atmosphere and what youre doing 1000% impact how a person dresses. we even see by having bigdei shabbos and yom tov, theres a different feeling when put on that fresh tie and shabbos hat.
” It would mean something if people would think about it. But it is demonstrated that they do not”. and this is something i disagree with wildly. i know for a fact, from both me and my friends that when a person wears that hat and jacket in public it stops them from doing certain things and talking about certain things. it acts as a barrier and ive seen this in my own life, even if you dont talk about it. and if im ever in an area thats not so religious, you better bet theyre thinking about it. a guy whos in some train station in bk and hes the only jew, and hes rocking a bekishe and payos, you dont think hes thinking about what hes wearing? of course he is
and the mannequin example is a poor one, because a mannequin isnt alive, and has nothing to identify with. i have a question, if you see a guy walking around with a shirt with a certain tv show on it, will you assume hes a fan of that tv show?
please explain what was contradictory in rav Avigdor Millers pamphlet. id like if it if you could elaborate, because what rav avigdor miller said is much more complicated and fairly different than what printer said
rav avigdor millers points are almost flawless and backed up by both daas Torah and psychology. so i dont understand the problem over here. please elaborate.
@Sam Klein what does that have to do with taking a corona test?
and the miss their mesivta curriculum? i think this is more complicated than your making it out to be
whats contradictory?
@n0mesorah
sorry for the very late reply but i was looking for a specific article. read up on this, rav avigdor miller ztz”l talks about what we were discussing over here (hopefully the mods will let the link through). its kdai to read
https://torasavigdor.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/TETZAVEH_Booklet-Print.pdf“The point emphasized (that’s what quotation marks are for) was that it’s not only that the RY is an anav, but that he has reached the peak of anavah, the tip of the blade of modesty, the “shpitz” itself.” exactly, so how does that cheapen it? is it because he said it in a yeshivish way that it automatically cheapens it? if a person takes any dvraim shbkedusha and talks about it while sounding yeshivish that automatically turns it into meaningless yeshivishe hock? or no, thats just the way that the yeshivishe world speaks and he isnt cheapening anything by saying it like that, hes just talking as he normally would
its not turning it into cheap yeshivishe hock, hes just saying the rosh yeshivas an anav. chill out
so what do you propose, that those boys should stop learning? what if his rebbe tells him he shouldnt go into shidduchim until hes a certain age? what if he wont learn as well once hes married? what if hes gonna go work and now he can only learn half a day or only one seder a day? what if hes still developing his chinuch in learning? you know for a FACT that its worth it to cut these essential years short? i certainly dont.
@cs where do you get that they think theyre the best of the best? it sounds from the description that theyre very serious about their learning and avodas Hashem. is every person whos serious about their learning and avoidas Hashem making someone worship the ground they walk on? or is it just someone whos porush himself from physical taivos more than most people in addition to all of these things
right but thats not to say that it doesnt do anything at all. by a person wearing a white shirt he is essentially reminding himself and showing himself that hes a part of a group with a certain set of standards. take for example someone who goes into a workplace or a flipout. people are gonna treat him different if he wears a white shirt, they arent going to discuss certain types of things with him and they wont invite him to certain outings because theres going to be an inherent recognition of what he stands for. also theres how he views himself, when a person puts on that white shirt hes identifying with those standards and so hes much less likely to do certain things. this isnt to say that you cant have a kid who wears a white shirt and does aveiros, of course that exists. but for the majority of people it sets a standard both for themselves and for other people
eretz yisroel is important for two reasons:
first of all its eretz yisroel, its a huge zchus to be able to spend any amount of time learning here, let alone a few full years!
second of all is that a lot of these kids need to get away completely from their home environments, to distance themselves from it and to be completely osek in Torah in a way that simply would be possible for them in america. the yeshivas in eretz yisroel are largely responsible for creating an entire generation of bnei Torah. what would be of these boys if yeshivas like merkaz, tj, oh yerushalayim, tc, senters etc didnt exist? and a big part of this success is because of the fact that theyre in eretz yisroel and because of that ive seen so many boys turn into real bnei Torah and real erliche yiddenchofetz chiam boys cant just wear whatever they want. they wear hats and jackets and button down shirts. they just also have the choice wear colored button down shirts, it isnt a free for all lol
@CTlawyer
but the point is that these boys have no other option so they dont know what to do. its very different than being out of a job, because you can always look for another job. these boys still technically have their yeshiva so theyre just in limbo. for a lot of them it just stopped them in the middle of their growth process and its a very scary situation for them@n0mesorah
well said, i hear your point. also as far as i know chofetz chaim in queens and most of the branches still wear colored shirts or is at least mixed (i visited cc queens last summer). i know that brooklyn makes them wear white shirts but i think thats the only one.
but there exists a metzius today of there being an identity with a white shirt, even though it didnt exist back then. so now that it does exist, it makes sense for a person to put it on if he wants to be a part of that group. what do you mean when you say levush is when you do not have any other connectionbut these are side points really and dont particularly matter (sorry if i came off a bit strong in my previous post)
the only thing that really matters is that he should ask his rav and thats really all it comes down to, as he is probably much more qualified and experienced in answering questions like these than most people here. added bonus that he actually knows the guy lolits well known that bochurim dressed very nice back then because they were viewed as unproductive people in society. this isnt much of an argument, just read some history.
“I think that those that think the yeshivishe velt has a levush, are newcomers. (Out of towners or Chassidish.) The yeshiveliet with Litvishe grandparents, would say there is no levush, they are just serious about wearing (their own) hats.”
ha! thats funny. if thats true then why do most mesivtas require white shirts and black pants, why not do like chofetz chaim and let them wear whatever color they want? go into ANY yeshivish yeshiva and youll see only white shirts, because again, its an identification with a certain group. and for sure in eretz yisroel theres no discussion at all, every single litvishe guy wears a white shirt. but even in america, the only people that dont wear white shirts in these communities are the more baalebatishe guys, even then a lot of time in places like lakewood they wear white shirts. its undeniably become a part of the levush, and a person wants to identify with said group just dress like this. i dont really see the problem over here.what conflict with a family structure? what are you going on about? the only question is if hes personally ready to start identifying with the yeshivishe world. a lot of kiruv rabbis tell people to wait to put on a hat because of this reason, not because of ostracizing other people or conflicting minhagim or whatever, its a question of focusing on externals too fast which might not be a healthy thing. he very clearly wants to wear a hat because he himself wants to. im not sure what your point was in that post, because newsflash: a lot of people start wearing htas because they simply want to identify with that group. this isnt a very hard concept. a hat. is. an. identification.
as a bochur in eretz yisroel myself i 100% feel what youre saying, but you should know that there are askanim trying to get yeshiva bochurim back to eretz yisroel.
@Sam Klein
you realllly cant. if you go to the hat box or to a non borsalino store you can get a good quality hat for a decent price. borsalinos are extremely expensive both because of the name and the quality. these hats are expensive because of the material theyre made of and the quality of the make (as well as supply and demand)
these $20 hats dont look like a regular black hatif you are trying to identify with a certain community (i;e the yeshivish one) and you think youre ready for it, put on a black hat after you ask your rav. if youre not ready for it, or if youre unsure, then you should also ask your rav. a black hat to a lot of gerim and bts (at least in my experience) is a major form of identification with a certain hashkafa. i highly recommend speaking to your rabbi before making a decision