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Philosopher, the gelolei haposkim put a lot of thought and argument into determining whether abortion is murder so I think the question is legitimate. But I think you are correct that it should be obvious to anyone straight-thinking person that it is terrible and immoral except in rare, extreme cases. I would also add that in a case where there is hefkerus and lack of respect regarding a particular mitzvah, it makes sense to be as machmir as possible, and this would be one of those cases.
Remember Chazal tell us it was gezel that ultimately caused the mabul, so stealing a candy bar is not a small aveira, and the fact that many people nowadays think it is just tells us how low things have fallen.
Obviously no court is enforcing the death penalty on 7 mitzvos bnei Noach today, but the fact that certain aveiros would be chayav misa should be a warning to us that they are more serious than we might have otherwise thought.
If there were courts enforcing the death penalty on 7 mitzvos BN, it would be in the context of a society that has as a whole accepted those mitzvos and understands their severity, so the application of misa would be something that happens rarely and after a lot of deliberation, hence the Robespierre analogy does not fit. But the fact that the death penalty does not exist today in practice for 7 mitzvos bnei Noach (except for murder in some jurisdictions) should not lead us to think that prohibitions are less severe.
Moishekapoieh,
I now and then meet people who are big proponents of your idea, and I suspect that most of them are motivated less by a desire to really help the shidduch situation and more by a desire to be imitate the goyim – as if the secular people with all their singles hangouts are so much more successful than us at getting married and staying married.
Also, it’s cute how you insinuate that anyone who disagrees with you has a dirty mind – an argument I hear a lot from people who have dirty minds against anyone who advocates for tsnius. Nobody is concerned that singles events with ehrliche men and women is going to suddenly degenerate into debauchery, the concern is about singles wasting their time flirting with people they have no intention of marrying, which contrary to the beliefs of some, is not condoned by the Torah.
“Which means if it is a self-abortion, such as the over the counter or prescription medication she takes, the mother would be chayiv misa.”
Correct.
The use of the term “side wife” in this discussion is a great example of why we have the cheirem of R Gershom.
“Why would it be more strict by a goy?”
In Halacha, I believe it is because the prohibition for a Jew and the prohibition for a Ben Noach are derived from different psukim, but I don’t remember the details. I would suggest listening to some of the shiurim that discuss this topic. In hashkafa, I don’t know the answer and would be interested in learning, but I would be wary of having that discussion on this forum because it not such a politically correct topic and there are a lot of nuances, so it’s likely that some readers will be offended and take it the wrong way.
There are some good shiurim on this on Torah anytime. Basically it’s a machlokes – I believe Rav Moshe Feinstein holds it’s murder to have an abortion after 40 days of pregnancy even though it is not chayav misa in Beis din and even though there is an exception for saving the mother’s life, which doesn’t exist by other types of murder. Other poskim, including Tzitz Eliezer hold that it is not murder, though still strictly ossur except in limited circumstances. Everyone agrees that that it is ossur under Sheva mitzvos bnei Noach. A Ben Noach who performs an abortion would be chayav misa whether it is murder or not, because misa applies to all Sheva mitzvos Bnei Noach. It’s also agreed, I believe, that where abortion is prohibited, only the person performing the abortion would be chayav. If the mother requested it but didn’t perform it, she would be chayav only for lifnei iver.
Marx deserves our admiration. He was a funny guy 🥸
In that case I think you would need to make a judgment based on your knowledge of your friend, whether he is already strong in emunah and would appreciate hearing the emes even if it bursts his bubble, in which case it might be good to tell him.
Otherwise I would leave it alone because even though its a good midda to seek the emes, it’s not an aveira to believe in something that is not true but also not against Torah hashkafa, so I’m not sure it is worth causing him tzaar or risk shaking his emuna before he’s ready for it.
Also, although the Torah codes might be phony, I would not assume they are phony based on a conversation you had with a friend unless he is an accomlished mathematician who spent a lot of time researching the subject. But I agree they should not be used as a basis for emunah, since their truth is at least uncertain.
My advice would be to not tell your friend that his basis for emunah is false, but instead to try to help him grasp onto a more solid basis for his emunah. Sooner or later he will figure out on his own that his basis for emunah is not reliable, but it will be much better for him if he already has something else to hold onto when that time comes. To tell your friend now before he has a more solid basis for emunah would be like to take the jack out from under the car before you replace the tire.
It’s true that every community has its unique problems. New York deserves to be bashed because its unique problem is a widespread lack of middos, which really should overshadow any other problems. I know from experience that it’s an everyday occurance in NY to see people wearing yarmulkes or tichels as they make a beautiful kiddush Hashem by yelling at a waiter because the food wasn’t exactly right or honking at someone for waiting a half-second too long to go at a green light. I’m not saying that everyone there does that, but I have seen that it is commonly accepted behavior. Now, apparently, bashing an out-of-town community as it is going through a difficult week is also acceptable behavior for some New Yorkers. I’d much prefer the crime and the carpools, and even riots, rather than to raise children in a place where that kind of behavior is accepted.
cherrybim and 147, I also wholeheartedly supporty our decision to stay away from Baltimore. NY is a much better place for snobs.
Also, I once asked a rav a sheila about whether breaking the speed limit is a violation of dina d’malchusa. The answer I received was that violating traffic laws that are commonly enforced is a violation of dina d’malchusa. So driving 2 mph over the speed limit would not be a dina d’malchusa problem, but driving 12 mph over the speed limit probably would be.
So those of you who care about following halacha but like to drive over the speed limit would be advised to consult your Rav before doing so.
Between thirty and forty thousand people die each year in motor vehicle accidents in the United States alone. In terms of loss of human life, that is the equivalent of ten September 11th attacks every year. And that’s not counting those who are seriously injured, or those in other countries. How many of us don’t know someone who was injured or worse in a car accident? The families of auto accident victims suffer no less and are no less innocent than the families of terror victims but they get a lot less attention. A large percentage of these deaths could be prevented if people would drive calmly and obey the law when it comes to speeding, tailgating, drunk driving, and obeying traffic lights.
Would you feel embarrassed to be seen sending a donation check to Hamas? If so, you should be embarrassed to be seen driving aggressively or speeding. That includes driving 36 mph on a Brooklyn street, where there are inevitably many pedestrians, bicyclists, children, stopped cars, etc., and it certainly includes driving 100 mph or even 60 or 70 mph on a New York highway, where onramps are short, there are no shoulders, and visibility is often limited. Just because you think you are a skilled driver doesn’t mean that speeding won’t reduce your ability to avoid a serious accident if something suddenly happens on the road. Even though your intentions may be less evil than a Hamas terrorist, your actions cause just as much damage and you have just as much blood on your hands if you drive that way. Not to mention chillul Hashem if you are ticketed or get into an accident because of such driving.
“It is the height of arrogance and stupidity.”
Wow, civility has certainly taken a nosedive in the CR lately. Maybe people should consider taking a couple deep breathes before posting things.
What is the point of this thread? This zionism vs satmar/antizionism debate keeps getting replayed over and over again in the CR. Everybody keeps making the same old points pro and con. It gets very tiring after a while.
This thread seems to have been created for the sole purpose of instigating more of the same tired old discussion. The question that started the thread is pointless – obviously, whichever view is closer to the emes will ultimately outlast the other, so really the question is just asking which point of view people think is emes, which leads back to the same futile discussion that appears in so many other threads.
PAA asks “what inherent value there is in doing the “right thing”. If the response to that will be “because G-d said so” then I will question what the inherent value of listening to G-d is.”
The point is that we are supposed to relate to Hashem both as avadim and as banim (and the Torah describes us with both terms). From the perspective of avadim, it makes sense to ask why one should try to make one’s master happy if those efforts will not be acknowledged through a reward or a lack of punishment. But from the perspective of a parent-child relationship, this is not a question, because in a normal healthy situation, parents and children want to make each other happy out of love for one another, even without considering reward and punishment. Now, obviously, feeling love for Hashem the same way we do for our close family members is not always easy or simple, but that’s exactly why doing a mitzvah shelo al menas lekabel pras is considered a big madreiga.
So in this letter, this Grandpa condescendingly talks down to his grandaughter and belittles her views and beliefs. As a result, she dismisses everything he says and continues to hold fast to her political views, even when she grows older and more mature. Meanwhile, Grandpa eventually gets old and passes away, having failed to pass his own political views on to the next generation, since he couldn’t respectfully communicate with any of his offspring. Therefore, if enough grandparents would write enough letters like this one, the Democrats would be guaranteed success for years to come.