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I have to admit that qwerty that was a good one.
Yankel Berel had two posts which I found interesting. The first was about the appellation Nosi Hador, which, YB argued, is a new and non-existent title that Lubavich uses to show that their rebbe was/is above all others. I have argued at lenght the exact same thing in the past on another thread in the Coffee Room.
It is very much in line with their ludicrous statement – again, I’ve heard this one many times – that when other chassidim say stam “the Rebbe” the mean the Lubavicher rebbe unless they specify a different title.
The second post which I find interesting is his explanation how Lubavich managed to get so far off the track by “testing the waters”. I don’t know if he’s right, but it is certainly worth looking into.
Menachem, I have never read Berger’s book and I saw the “Who Elokeinu?” quote in Beis Moshiach itself.
The fact that Beis Moshiach had a decent enough following to allow its continued publication it its radical form shows what I was trying to prove, to wit that there are Lubavichers who believe that their rebbe is G-d and who daven to him. Just as the person who says “Barch the Rebbe” believes that his rebbe is G-d, and, I can only assume, davens to him.
I did not say that these people are the majority, and neither as far as I remember did Avirah. Just that some do, which I believe you denied. Or perhaps it was someone else who did. It makes no difference.
As to Shlomo Cunin, all the justification is unacceptable. He said that the Lubavicher rebbe runs the world, and he doesn’t. Note, he did not say “tzaddikim” he said “the rebbe”. That’s not the same as all the justifications that you and others have given.
I myself heard a few months ago when I was on a trip abroad from a Lubavicher mashpia that when the Baal Hatanya says (excuse me for not remembering the exact quote or citation) that all the shefa comes through tzaddikim (or something like that – my apologies once again) he said tzaddikim in the plural only because he was being modest, but what he actually meant was that it all comes through him alone. And that therefore “in our generation” it’s only via the rebbe.
“you never explained how you knew about my Hey Jude remark since that post wasn’t printed”
It was certainly “printed”. And I’m not a mod. I have been edited too in the past.
Regarding davening to the Lubavicher rebbe, I believe there are some who do.
And I remember an article that appeared in Beis Moshiach many years ago which said that since the rebbe can decree and Hashem will fulfill his diecree, and since if Hashem decrees the rebbe can annul that decree, therefore (and to the best of my knowledge I’m quoting the article word for word, because I found it both amazing and disgusting at the time) “Who Elokeinu? Who Avinu? Who Malkeinu? The rebbe melech hamashiach, that’s who!”
And to add a little snippet, I know someone who says (to be honest i haven’t seen him for some time so maybe he doesn’t anymore) “Baruch the Rebbe” instead of “Baruch Hashem”, and “Thank the Rebbe” instead of “Thank G-d”.
So maybe nearly all Lubavichers don’t equate their rebbe with Hashem, but there are certainly those who do.
qwerty: “Dude”
I was a pretty good chess player in my time, and I used to know all the correct terminology, but “Dude” is something I am unfamiliar with. Could you please explain?
qwerty, as you constantly mention that you are close to the Feinstein family, and you seem to consider them Daas Torah, why don’t you ask R Reuven about TVs, as opposed to your local Rabbi?
Menachem:”I don’t care who fabricated this story (I’m not accusing you, it could have been a misunderstanding on your part).
I care to set the facts straight”Either take my word for it or don’t, but it’s not a fabrication. As I said, I got the photocopies from a friend in Israel and I myself went to look up the sources. i saw both the original version, and the redacted version. My problem is that I can’t find the copy that quotes the sefer, and I have no idea of the name of the sefer. Oh well.
I have a question for Menachem, n0m, sechel and all the other Lubavichers on this thread.
I don’t know how old you are, or what you remember pre-5754, but the official Lubavich line was that every generation must have someone who is fit to be Mashiach. So my question is, who is it in our generation?
qwerty: “Hey Jude”
You jsut proved you are MO!
“But if you look up seforim in Hebrew, your mommy, totty and Hashem will be so proud of you”
Touche!
Menachem: “I’m either misunderstanding something, or your lying, or you heard it from someone who was lying, or saw a forged version.”
I’m surprised that you would accuse me of lying. I didn’t think that was your style.
At any rate, when I saw the copy of the redacted version, and I’m talking possibly over 30 years ago, I went into the local Lubavich shul and searched for the sefer that they had cited as the source. (Sorry, but I can’t find it at the moment, and as I moved house about half a year ago I may have lost it.) It was not in a regular volume of sichos, but in a blue sefer printed by Kehos publishing company. I apologize that I can’t be more precise.
n0m: “If you never listen to other people, what is the threat of them saying whatever kefira they want?”
Technicallly there can still be a problem if the follower of a min try to spread his word. Even if what they’re spreaxing is not necessarily minnus of its own accord, they are still trying to get people attached to the min himself.
Btw the above is just a point in regards to what you said in general terms. I was not davka relating it to Lubavich and atzmus melubash in a guf.
Avirah, I’m now insulted that you consider Marvellous Middos Machine children’s media. When I want to know something about middos that’s what I reference. Who has time to look up mussar seforim in Hebrew?
sechel: “He never said you can pray to the Rebbe”
Please quote for all of us the passage where he said the statement that we are objecting to. You will find that he says EXPLICITLY that davening to a tzaddik is not a problem because he is atzmus melubash beguf, so he is a memutza hamechaber, not a memutza hamafsik. I may have the quote incorrect, but that is defnitiely the gist of what he said.
sechel: “as the Rebbe brings it’s a clear yerushalmi and a Zohar)”
Can you please cite sources?
sechel: “so from 1962 (when it was printed) no one had an issue till some am haaratzim that don’t know the above seforim saw the sicha and think it’s a”z ch”v”
During the bitter Israeli election of 1989 between Agudah and Degel, the latter published quite a lot against Lubavich, as, at the time, that was the main crux of the disagreement between the two parties. Part of what they published – and I have copies, and have checked both sources. – the atzmus melubash beguf sicha, and the same sicha printed in a later volume, with the offensive passage redacted.
If there’s nothing wrong with it, why was it redacted and never reprinted in its original form?
sechel: “Great point, but think more a second, the teams job was to figure the mekoros for everything the Rebbe said, so what does that mean? You think the Rebbe read out of a toras Menachem?”
As I wrote in the very same post (and you completely ignored) any good rosh yeshivah who had a team of people working to find marei mekomos, could have a derasha of his printed with a few hundred marei mekomos. I would go even further and say that if I had a team of people working for me, I could have a derasha of mine published with numerous (probably not hundreds) of marei mekomos, and I am no veltz gaon by a long long shot!
And another thing I wrote (and you completely ignored) was that it is totally baseless to say that the Lubavicher rebbe knew virtually all seforim published before the war by heart. Ridiculous!
Avirah, I’m sorry to say that you really disappoint me.
“uncle moishy songs about never telling a lie”
It wasn’t Uncle Moishy, it was The Marvellous Middos Machine! Shame on you!
sechek83: “why do I claim the Rebbe was Baki in almost every Sefer printed before the war? Listen to his sichos, and look at them printed with מראה מקומות,
An average farbrengen the Rebbe quotes 2-300 m”m no hesitation…”As I’ve written in the past, the Lubavicher rebbe had a team of people who searched for marei mekomos for the sichos that were published. Although even I admit that the L rebbe had a lot of Torah knowledge, I still venture to say that any decent rosh yeshivah who had a team of talmidim writing and working for him, could print derashos with hundreds of marei mekomos.
And allow me to point out that you wrote that he knew virtually ever sefer that was printed before the war by heart. That claim is baseless… unless of course you’re a Lubavicher.
Menachem: “This is a complete 360.”
A complete 360 means you end up facing the same direction that you faced when you started!
mdd1 I did not miss your point at all. You asked whether one “would prefer stam that all reshoim go straight to Gan Eiden even without being killed because they are Jewish?”
And I was commenting that there is nothing wrong with preferring that all Jewish resha’iim go to Gan Eden without being punished. But it’s not up to us to decide that, and the fact is that virtually no one goes to Gan Eden without being punished. Nonetheless, why would any of us “prefer” that resha’im go to Gehinnom? What would we gain by preferring that?
sechel83: “But one thing is seems to everyone clear is the Rebbe was Baki in basically every Sefer printed before the war.”
Oh no. Not another Lubavicher who makes baseless claims about what “everybody” knows. Where on earth did you get that he was baki in every sefer printed before the war?
mdd1: “Or you would prefer stam that all reshoim go straight to Gan Eiden even without being killed because they are Jewish?”
I remember reading i(pretty sure it was n the Artscroll biography of R Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld z”l) that he said that as far as he is concerned Eliezer Ben-Yehuda – the founder of modern Hebrew and an apikorus – can be allowed into Gan Eden. However, that’s irrelevant and we had to fight him vehemently in Olam Hazeh.
I would like to correct something I wrote earlier: “The truth is that the Lubavicher rebbe didn’t write even one sefer.”
As far as I recall he did actually write one sefer before he became rebbe. It was his Haggada Shel Pesach where he cites and discusses the various halachic opinions related to the Seder night.
Menachem: “I haven’t seen anything on this, but maybe this Gemara could be considered a source, or remez?
הרוגי מלכות אין אדם יכול לעמוד במחיצתן.”Possibly, but it’s not clear that they go straight to Gan Eden. It may mean that their eventual level in Gan Eden is extremely high.
Avirah to sechel: “writing a lot does not make one bigger or smaller”
The truth is that the Lubavicher rebbe didn’t write even one sefer. He had teams of people, as well as individual chassidim, who wrote the seforim that you are referring to. Furthermore, many, if not most, of the seforim, are rewording, reworking, summarising etc. earlier seform and talks that the Lubavicher rebbe gave.
There’s nothing wrong with that, but to claim that he was the author of hundreds of seforim is disingenous (and that’s another word that I only use in the coffee room).
Menachem to sechel: “You’re judging Chabad from the inside and non-Chabad from the outside (internet or random meetings on the street).
This doesn’t really count as an “obvious difference”…”Menachem, I have to give it to you. I disagree very strongly with much of what you say (surprise, surprise!) but you are definitely more intellectually honest than any other Lubavicher (and some of us on the other side) on this thread.
Maybe I should takke start calling you Rabbi 🙂
sechel: “even though rav moshe and every other litvishe gadolim [sic] respected chabad”
Spoken like a true Lubavicher… without taking facts into account! Not EVERY OTHER Litvishe gadol respected Lubavich, and there is a very good chance that more than 90% of them didn’t.
And don’t forget Satmar and their compatriots who did not respect Lubavich at all.
AlwaysAsk to Avirah: “You are suggesting that gedolim were making judgments about major current movements lead by other gedolim without investigating the matter properly?”
Not quite. Avirah is suggesting that they made judgments after investigating the matter as far as they could. Don’t forget that Lubavich are experts and believe in propaganda, as the Lubavicher rebbe himself said חזקה לתעמולה שאינה חוזרת ריקם. So many gedolei Yisrael believed that the views and situation in Lubavich were not what they really were.
What I have written is not radical or surprising. There were many gedolei Yisrael who believed that Shabsai Tzvi (NO! I’m not comparing c”v.) was a great tzaddik and possibly Mashiach until the full facts came to light. אין לדיין אלא מה שעיניו רואות.
mdd1: “there was one Chassidishe Rebbe (not a contemporary one) who held that Zimri was right in what he did with Kozbi”
I can only assume that you’re referring to the famous piece in Mei Hashilo’ach of the Izhbitzer Rebbe z”l which explains that what Zimri did was due to his understanding of Torah. Nonetheless, the Mei Hashilo’ach says that Zimri was mistaken, and not right as you have written. See the first piece in parshas Pinchas.
If I am wrong in my assumption, and you are referring to a different rebbe, please provide a source.
qwerty: “I spoke to Poskim on this question when the Jews in Pittsburgh were killed and I was told unequivocally that any Jew who is killed because he’s identified as a Jew dies Al Kiddush Hashem and is guaranteed an immediate ticket to Gan Eden”
I heard not that long ago that there is actually no reliable source that a Yid who was killed because he is Jewish goes straight to Gan Eden. I would like to a source either way. And I certainly hope what I heard was incorrect.
But notwithstanding that, I don’t believe that “poskim” can “pasken” who gets into Gan Eden. It is beyond their area of expertise. Therefore, R A Miller is no less authoritative on this matter than they are.
Avirah, I don’t think it is right to say that Rav Kook z”l was “heretical”. There were a great number of gedolei Yisrael who held him in very high regard despite not agreeing with his views. RSZ Auerbach was a talmid of his, as were other great poskim. And I remember once seeing a letter by the Gerer Rebbe z”l saying that he was a great man.
I applaud Menachem on being rational about the Tzemach Tzedek re his views on beards. A great tzaddik and gaon, but nontheless not a daas rabbim, as Menachem wrote.
On the other hand, Menachem also wrote the following: “it is wrong when people play two sides on which rabbanim they use. Some people might accept Rav Shach as daas Torah who must be followed by all of klal Yisroel in regard to Chabad… yet when it comes to beards they are meikel like Reb Moshe …”
If people do the above because it suits them, then it is certainly not laudable, but it is still not definitely wrong. See Eiruvin 7a where the gemoro only says it is absolutely wrong if the chumra and the kula contradict each other.
n0m: “What do you mean that he wasn’t spending time on communal needs?”
I never said or implied that. What I said was that other rebbes spend the majority of their time on communal needs and the needs of the individual. The Lubavicher rebbe did not spend MOST OF HIS TIME on that.
“Go blame all the other leaders for where their groups ended up.”
Where did their groups end up that anyone is deserving of blame? And I certainly would blame their leaders if I saw a direct link between their actions/views and a resultant departure from accepted chareidi norms.
I think it was qwerty – although I’m not 100% sure – that Rav Moshe was the undisputed Gadol Hador.
As great as Rav Moshe was, and perhaps he was indeed the Gadol Hador, but he certainly did not have that title undisputedly. When I was learning in E”Y as a bochur, he was virtually never quoted. Not that the israeli chareidim hadn’t heard of him, but they had Rav Elyashiv, Rav SZ Auerbach and others whose piskei halocho were quoted and given full weight. Rav Moshe was considered a big posek for Americans. I am not denigrating Rav Moshe, chas veShalom, just arguing with the term “undisputed”.
Avira:”neo chabad changing the mesorah and general cookiness”
Are you suggesting that they allow the cooking of basar bechalav?! Have they gone that far?! Oh, I get it. You mean kookiness with a k.
While the discussions about him most definitely not being Mashiach and a novi are very important, I believe that that is not the main point that many of us are trying to convey.
He lead a large group of people along a dangerous path where the belief that their shitah is the only correct one, and that things accepted or rejected for hundreds of years are now to be rejected and accepted, respectively. He constantly justified his and his chassidim’s actions, regardless of how the world saw it.
It is thus no wonder that the level of tznius in Crown Heights and other Lubavich strongholds is far below the level of all other chareidi groups, and the mixing of the genders is atrocious. (Can you name me any other chassidic group where a woman speaking to a group of men is accepted. There are probably small groups of Lubavich chassidim who find this reprehensible, but it is accepted by the vast majority.) If everything we do has been okayed by the boss, and he will bring the geulah any day regardless of what anyone else thinks, then everything is muttar.
“The Rebbe’s encyclopedic knowledge, near photographic memory, and lighting-fast wit, enabled him to validate himself with sources in seconds. If this was your main issue and you discovered the secret concept of learning to better understand, and had you gone to The Rebbe and asked for sources – he would have given you a dozen sources for every point in one minute.”
n0m, I’m sure you believe the above, but I saw and heard the Lubavicher rebbe live and I never found that he demonstrated the above.
“Encyclopedic knowledge” – he prepared his sichos (I heard this from informed fully-fledged Lubavich sources decades ago). Unlike most other rebbes who spend a majority of their time dealing with askonim on inyonei tzibbur and and regular supplicants, the Lubavicher rebbe sat in his room by himself most of the day. It makes sense that he prepared his sichos. (Btw the same sources said to me that he did not prepare his maamorim because they came directly min Hashomayim when he said them. So you can see that my sources were true believers.) And he had an entire team searching for sources when they wrote and published the sichos. So I don’t see that he necessarily had encyclopedic knowledge.
“Near photographic memory” – only near? Or perhaps some of the photographs were not developed clearly. Anyhow, on what basis do you make that claim?
“Lighning-fast wit” – really? I heard him speak many times and he was ponderous and repetetive. He could make the occasional witticism, but to label his wit as lightning-fast?! That’s debatable. (I say debatable because I say it wasn’t and you’ll continue to say it was.)
“Saying that 770 is gematriya beis moshiach is not the same as proving something from the gematriya.”
You’re right. It isn’t. But it is VERY childish and doesn’t suit someone who you consider being worthy of being Mashiach.
I’m surprised that no one has pointed out (perhaps they did and I missed it) that when the Lubavicher rebbe apparently “proves” that nevuah exists nowadays, he is referring ONLY to his father-in-law and, according to his followers, himself. And his proofs of his father-in-law’s and his own nevuah just don’t hold water. Where and when did he prophesy what will happen in the Six-Day-War and the Gulf (Not golf war, as you wrote it. That was between Obama and Trump.) War? Saying that one side will win doesn’t qualify as nevuah unless you say a time and a place.
I want to point out once more that the standard answer is, “Learn something-or-other in its entirety and you will understand,” knowing very well that we on the other side (I assume Lubavichers will translate that as sitra achra) have no intention of doing so. I know I won’t, and I have three reasons.
1. I’m scared that reading too much of his writings will lead me astray. That has been the case with many people I personally know. Although, Lubavichers will probably not agree that it is astray.
2. As I have written a number of times in the past, I have had a very long connection with Lubavich and I have, in fact, been more or less force-fed long explanations of the Lubavicher rebbe which did not make any sense except to the person who was convinced that they were fantastic even before he himself had learnt them. How many times have I heard, “There’s a fascinating letter of the rebbe…” and then been read something simplistic, or self-serving and the like? (Correct answer: many times.) In case you’re wondering, despite only very rarely finding/hearing anything worthwhile that the Lubavicher said/wrote, I am still scared of being influenced badly. See point 1 above.
3. I believe it is wrong halachically to read the writings of someone who so clearly was self-promoting and believed that no other gedolei Yisrael were comparable to himself. Not to mention someone who could play with halacha, e.g. paskening that you need not sleep in the sukkah if you are mitzta’er that you CAN fall asleep. (As I wrote, that’s my all-time favorite.)
sechel to me: “one of the 13 ikrim is that there is nevuah, the rambam gives simanim on who is a navi which we all saw by the rebbe, signed a psak din that reads as follows…”
I never suggested that I don’t believe in nevuah c”v. I just don’t believe that the Rayatz was a navi and neither was his son-in-law. The crazy psak that you quote that the Lubavicher rebbe is a navi is just plain worthless and stupid. If fact, it’s disgusting.
To “pasken” that the rebbe was a navi (and Mashiach) from the fact that he alluded to it himself in a sicha makes a joke of all real piskei halocho! MenachemShmei would never have quoted that because he would have realised that we would make a laughing-stock of him if he did. I think you should learn from him not to quote something that is so easily negated and laughable.
You also attacked me ad hominem (I’m fine with that by the way) and, as usual, ignored actual statements that I cited as ridiculous, e.g. the proof of Messianism from the fact that Beis Mashiach has the gematria of 770.
And while we’re at it, let’s drag up some old stuff that has never been answered and always been avoided.
1. The fact that Lubavich holds it’s a “kula al pi chassidus” to eat Seuda Shlishis (that’s an exact quote of what I was told).
2. That according to nigleh one is pattur from sleeping in a sukkah if one is mitzta’er that he is able to fall asleep! (That is most certainly my favorite.)
3. That trees that are so far away that they cannot be seen can interefere with the working of a sundial between the hours of two and five in the afternoon every day of the year. (As quoted by the Rayatz in his stories.)To paraphrase the Kohein Gaodl on Yom Kippur, there is a lot more in Lubavich than I have quoted here that shows that they are off the beaten track (some of it close to apikorsus, and some over the line). But they will continue to dissemble and avoid at all costs facing up to those criticisms, instead attacking ad hominem or resorting to the hoary old chestnut (I don’t even know what a hoary chestnut is, but I like the expression) of, “You are quoting out of context. If you learnt more chassidus you’d understand.” I may not have learnt as much Chabad chassidus as you have, but I have defnitely learnt more than the average non-Lubavicher, and I definitely DO NOT understand.
I also don’t understand the allowing and even encouraging of drinking alcohol to excess, the levels of mixing of genders which is not found among other chassidim, the low level of tznius (which has been decried by a number of Lubavichers in the coffee room and elsewhere) and the denigrating of all other groups of chareidim that is so prevalent in Lubavich.
I would like to make one thing clear. I am not a believer in the Lubavicher rebbe (as if you didn’t already know) but I believe he had myriad zechuyos that I don’t have. His international Chabad houses are fantastic places of “refuge” for businessman and tourists all over the world. Nonetheless, his hashkafos and views have led to a great decline amongst Lubavicher chassidim and those under their influence in many areas, not limited to those I have mentioned above. And his implicit insistence that nothing other than Lubavich is worthy in the frum world has shown that he cannot be accepted by the vast majority of chareidim as a true gadol beYisrael.
(Sorry, but I can’t resist commenting, even though we’ve been through it all before.)
“the Rebbe doesn’t ch”v make up his own views”
What about the fact that Beis Mashiach is begamatria 770, and saying how there is nevuah in Yisrael because his shver was a navi (implying – according to the chassidim, not me – that he himself is a navi), and that there is a concept of Nasi Hador even nowadays (about which I have written against in earlier threads).
And there are quite a number of other examples of the Lubavicher rebbe making up stuff and then distorting sources to show his point.
(As you may have noticed I haven’t been around for a while. I used to be simply RSo but I lost all the login info so I had to make a new username etc.)
Menachem wrote: “Again, this has nothing to do with ch”v davening to the Rebbe in shmone esrei, or the other nonsense which does not exist, as I wrote countless times.”
You are very wrong. In that sicha the whole point that the Lubavicher rebbe was making was that there is nothing wrong with davening to a tzaddik because he is atzmus melubash baguf.