aries2756

Missme, the husband has the same obligation and responsibility to “strive” to maintain shalom bayis and make sure that his wife is happy. They are each 100% responsible for the shalom bayis of the home and to know and understand what is important to their spouse.

I know a lot of young women who were very happy to choose this lifestyle until they had a couple of kids and could not handle the pressure any longer and did not know how to tell their husbands they didn’t want to live the life any longer. They were so stressed out that they couldn’t concentrate on their job and were too exhausted to do be the mother, homemaker and wife when they got home. They no longer wanted to be the breadwinner and resented the fact that they were expected to keep going. They also resented the fact that their husbands had no clue how they felt and felt very removed from them emotionally because of it. They felt that their husbands should be more in tune to them and their feelings and that they should have picked up on their uneasiness and unhappiness and that they should be asking them what is wrong instead of them having to come right out and tell them that the arrangement is no longer working for them.

As important as learning is, shalom bayis is more important and I think that one thing that is never mentioned is that a couple should sit down and re-evaluate and renegotiate each year without resentment, to make sure that the arrangement is working for both (if not all, children included) parties. As long as both partners agree each year to continue with the arrangement they should keep on going. But as soon as the wife feels burnt out, or even the husband feels burnt out or sees that his wife is over burdened, they should renegotiate. Whether it means he has to help more at home, or he has to take a part time job, or take over the entire burden, whatever is necessary to secure the shalom bayis as the main priority in the home.

How old is the girl? Is she really mature and ready for marriage or did she just come back from seminary and is still on the brainwash high?

If she is a mature young lady and has thought out what kind of married life and family she wants for herself, and she has chosen a “KOLEL” lifestyle and a husband that learns full time. Then she needs help to reach her goal. If she talks about marrying a “learning boy” then you need to have a real conversation with her and do a “reality check”.

There is a difference between the two as many have pointed out. When you “choose” to live the Kollel life you are making a commitment to give up “keeping up with the Jones or the Cohens”. Especially if your parents can’t afford to support you. You have to know whether or not you can bury the green eyed monster and truly not have any envy of what others have. It is not an easy nisayon because even when you live in a kollel community many young women wear what working families wear and many children are dressed to the hilt. The diamonds are sparkling and the wigs are brand new. Even the cars are leased and exchanged at regular intervals.

And of course there are others who struggle to make ends meet and are truly live the Kollel life because they are supporting themselves any which way they can. They chose to do so and they can’t look at others who have more than them because this is a choice that they make and they have the choice to change their minds. You don’t get to complain about what others have because YOU chose to live without. YOU do however, get to make other choices if it is not working out for you.

This is what this young lady needs to understand. If she chooses to support her husband in learning. It is not exactly necessary to go against her parents and go to “college” to get a degree. There are vocational courses that a person can take for different occupations such as graphic design, computers, medical billing, and other occupations that don’t involve a standard college. Anything that she does to put away money before she marries will be a great help and as someone else said can assist her to learn more to make more after she marries. She most likely will also be eligible for financial aid in college after she marries if she chooses to go, and any money she puts away before marriage will help sustain the household expenses.

I agree with refael613, there are cell phone stores all over Israel that sell plans, phones and minutes. Ask your sons, nephews or neighbors. They all have the scoop on the cell phone industry in Israel. There is “cellcom, Orange and more”. Believe me the boys and young couples know the best plans and the best companies.

I realize that some men have pointed out that WE are not as careful as we should be or that we don’t realize that we accidentally show more than we think we are and I appreciate that. Because in all honesty the examples brought forth are purely accidental and not intentional.

So I think it would be beneficial for all to agree that the onus is both on the men and the women. Women need to be more careful and need to be more sensitive when teaching the concept of tznius to other women and young girls in order to make the right and lasting impression. Tznius needs to be carried out with pride and not with a burden.

As far as the men are concerned they need to be less judgmental, need to look away and need to be totally appreciative of their wives and daughters and let them know how beautiful and graceful they look because they are tznius and yet emulate what a true bas yisroel and a beautiful woman truly looks like.

I shouldn’t have been baited to respond and did my best not to, but as I was addressed, quoted and replied to over and over again I guess I fell for the bait. I have no intention of analyzing or attempting to figure out Philo, what her issues are, what her needs are, or why she argues with everyone. I am swimming away from the bait.

PHILO, the problem is that not everything on your mind or in your heart has to come out of your mouth. So if you see a child that is OTD, you don’t have to say anything. If you choose to say Hello, leave it at that. You don’t have to analyze them, or offer your opinion of what you think of them. Today they are holding where they are holding but tomorrow or a hundred tomorrows from today, they might turn their lives around and find their way back. Being so angry and so harsh because you were able to make different choices for yourself even though you were hurt will not help anyone, not even you. Hashem did not appoint you for the job of “shofet”, HE is still in charge and is still in charge of HIS relationship with these children. It will all happen on HIS time line and not on yours. So your ranting and raving, your opinions, your anger your disgust all for the so called honor of Hashem is pointless. Hashem hasn’t given up on them, and neither have many of us. WE have enough bitachon and emunah in Hakadosh Boruch HU, that he will send them the right shelichim to help them heal their pain and turn their lives around and back on track to find their way home again.

Sometimes one has to realize that they are not on the right madreigah in their lives to help other people with certain issues. Helping kids at risk, or OTD, or being involved with kiruv is not for everyone. Everyone does chesed in their own ways, and that does evolve and change as they mature and grow older. LIfe, and the experiences that life affords helps us in the evolution of helping and assisting other people. It is very possible that a 20 year old might not be able to assist the elderly or handicapped very well, because they might not have the patience or the selflessness that is needed. By the same token, not many young adults have the patience nor the selflessness necessary to deal with the OTD or at-risk population. One needs to be very non-judgmental and forgiving basically selfless, patient, respectful, warm, loving, caring while maintaing boundaries and being the best role model we can be. A young person cannot do this while still being obligated to care for their spouse and very young children. They themselves have too many needs and have too much of themselves obligated to others. In addition, they have not gathered enough life experience to see both sides of the coin, to have walked in various different shoes, worn various different hats, heard too many different stories and been proven wrong too many times to learn that first step in helping others is to “learn to listen to understand” and not just be eager to give your perspective and point of view. Being right is not “everything” being happy and successful is so much more important. In many cases you just can’t have both.

It is important to take turns with each and give each alone time and each should know that “now is “x” time to go alone with mommy or tatty. Make a calendar so each gets to see when it is their turn with each parent. On their turn let them choose what they would like to do for instance go for ice cream, go to the park, take a long ride in the car, go for a walk, etc. There won’t be jealousy because each one will know that their turn will come.

It is also important to have “house” rules. WE don’t use foul language and we don’t hit in this house, there is a time out for anyone who hits, no questions asked. And have a special place and chair for the time out, with a timer. When the time is over sit down and ask the child or both children what the disagreement was about, why they chose to hit, and what they could have done differently instead of hitting. This can be done with any issue such as taking another child’s toy, ripping a book, so on and so forth. The time out is used to both calm down the child and calm down the parent so they don’t lash out in anger with a million and one hurtful comments and consequences they can’t follow through on. So in addition to the time out for children it is important for parents to take two breaths before reacting.

Getting back to the sensitive child, one must allow a child to feel what they feel because feelings are not right or wrong they are just there, so the point is to get to the root of the feelings. Why are they being so sensitive? What is the basis? Is there a lack of self-confidence or self-esteem? Do they think less of themselves than of their siblings? Do they think their sibling is smarter, stronger, bigger, more capable? Is he being bullied in school?

You might be teaching him not to fight and he isn’t, but the kids in school are being so aggressive that he is confused. Everyone else is being “normal” and he is being a sissy or acting like a girl. So how exactly is he supposed to behave. Unless you ask him about what is actually going on in his class, who his friends are and what goes on, you are not going to hear his side of things, his views on the subject and what is really going on his his heart and in his mind.

When you do a “favor” for another person you do so out of your own sense of goodness. When you continue to do so because you want to help that other person, you are making a choice whether you are doing this because this person needs your assistance (chesed) or do you expect something in return. You have to ask yourself, why am I doing this? Am I doing this l’shem mitzva because I want to do chesed, or because I want to change this person and I believe I can help this person change.

We need to understand that WE can’t change others nor can we control others. WE can only change ourselves and control our own actions. The way we deal with others might change the way they react to us. So by doing favors for others, chesed, we feel good about ourselves that we do chesed. By helping someone to make them change their way of life, we usually set ourselves up for failure and for hurt.

When a person works with the at-risk population because they don’t expect anything in return, they love the children and want to do whatever they can to help, they will be successful with some and not with others, but every little step, every little connection or improvement along the way is a tremendous reward.

One thing I will say. No matter what a person thinks. A mitzva is a mitzva and even though they feel they might have been taken advantage of or they might not have been appreciated, they might not have seen an immediate result. But the kindness and concern shown did not fall on deaf ears or on a cold heart. YOU did have an effect although you don’t think you saw it. What was done for that individual stays with her through her journey and it will be remembered through the roughest and hardest of times. YOU never know when the mitzvah you did, will have the most or biggest effect on her and make the biggest difference in her life.

When I worked in an At-Risk High School in my neighborhood I worked with an out of town young lady and did so much for her, even drove her to and from therapy, picked her up from the airport, bought her drug store supplies, etc. I never heard from her when she went back home, but wasn’t surprised. It was OK, no problem. Years later, maybe 4 or 5, I met someone from her neighborhood and introduced myself. She says you are Mrs. ” “? You worked in “…”? Do you remember…..? She talks about you all the time. She tells everyone everything you did for her, how much she loves you and how she wouldn’t have survived here without you. AND yes BTW she turned her life around.

I was shocked! I was sure she forgot about me. Do you see? YOU have no clue what kind of impact you make on another person. Stop thinking about the fact there was no hakaros hatov and no thank yous. You really don’t need it. There is a long term result from your mitzvah.

Gavra, I hate to say this, but today, it is very difficult to “choose” a yeshiva. Unfortunately today, the yeshiva chooses you. YOU apply and if they like your nose they take you, if not you apply to another, and another, and another, until you get in. And then, if you don’t like what is going on you are afraid to say anything because you fear your child will get kicked out, and if your child gets kicked out no one else will take him.

That is what happens in today’s yeshivas.

Actually men have nothing to do with it. Competition between women is fierce. It is about designers, latest trends, baubles, bangles and bows!!!!!

As for how much a camp can/should or is reasonable to charge there is no answer. Every camp would and does have different variables such as mortgage on the property, number of campers, number of staff, payroll for Rebbeim and other employees, supplies needed, insurance, expenses and so on. There is no way to compare one to another and no way to assume whether one is fare or not. Fare is choosing a camp that fits your budget and hashkafas towards your kids. If your kids are happy you are happy, and if YOU are overburdened and financially drained the kids can feel your stress and cannot possibly be happy.

Everyone needs to learn to live within their means and budget themselves accordingly. There is always going to be someone out there who is going to do better and afford more than we can. There is always going to be someone out there that will start a new trend and get a cazilion people to follow them. Remember the Torah tells us neither a leader nor a follower be. One must determine for oneself the path they must take, and they have to do so without considering what the neighbors will say.

Oomis, thank you, I stand corrected, philosopher is a she but I am not going to get into any discussions with her. She has obviously been hurt in the past, so I am just going to let it all slide and let it go no matter what she says. She doesn’t know me, has no clue who I am, what I have done in this neighborhood, or my experience in this parsha.

BTW I think we live in the same neighborhood. We lost two 17 year old boys in a very short time a few years ago. Both similar stories. I was involved with 3 suicide situations, all girls, who all recovered B”H. Two are now married.

GAW, are you saying that you turn your back on your child because they made the wrong choice and therefore you let them and their children starve? Do you then leave it to others to support your children because they made the wrong choice? Is that the TORAH way? Is THAT mutar?

I have another suggestion for all those Rabbonim who “TELLl” their students it is assur to go to college. Let them give those students a parnasah contract. Let them put it in writing that THEY will support them in learning no matter how many children they have in the future. And please let us not forget that it includes Yeshiva tuition for each and every child because yeshivas don’t want to hear that the fathers are in Kolel and can’t afford to pay!

Why don’t you look for designers and encourage them to design tznius clothes that are both modest and fashionable. Find designers who will design for modest women who will allow women to look like women and feel good about themselves without having a look that entices men. Create clothes that have a modern feel to them (meaning fabrics) and colors that are not ‘boring” and always black, but are youthful for the young, and complimentary to all hair colors and skin colors for various and appropriate ages.

Clothing that is attractive and tznius will give young women a reason to wear it with pride and confidence.

Yossi, firstly mazal tov on your simcha. Secondly, take a breath, and then sit down and think about who you are and what you imagine your life to be. YOUR marriage and family will be a combination and compromise of the best of what you know (from your home, learning, and experience) and the best of what she knows and the decisions you will make together.

Shidduchim are a partnership between the parents, the shadchan and most of all Hashem. They don’t happen just stam, and they really don’t follow the list of requirements people have. Let me clarify that. Rarely does anyone get most if not anything on their lists so don’t even bother with it. Take a deep look at yourself and try to understand what type of young woman would compliment and complete the person you are. Are you looking for a baalas chessed? Are you looking for someone who can appreciate your sense of humor? Do you enjoy having an open house, do you want someone who doesn’t mind entertaining and sharing you with guests? Do you appreciate someone who would put on a pair of sneakers and go for 3 mile walk with you?

Think of the real important issues that really make up good and solid relationships. The outer issues that boys think of are foolish because a size 2 can turn into a size 10 very easily. So if that is number one on your list consider that shallow. When you get to the heart of the matter, that is when you should approach your parents and let them know the type of girl that would win your heart. Be prepared to “listen to understand” your parents perspective. Let them talk and don’t interrupt. Give them the courtesy of having their say, you might be surprised that they know you well enough to be on the same page. Then ask them to give you the same courtesy to listen to what you have to say, and ask them to be on the same page as you because it will make the dating process go more quickly and easily. After all there is no point in you dating girls that you will not choose to marry.

myfriend, how can you even compare picketing in regard to a “get” and picketing in regard to “judging others”. Seriously, you would consider picketing someone’s home because you judge them on their tznius?

“I’m very happy that your nachas is that these OTD’s are clean and sober but what about nachas to the Aibishter? He gave us the Torah and COMMANDED us to keep it. He warned us not to forsake it. Klal Yisroel is married to the Torah and when we forsaken it we have forsaken our bride. We have broken our bond with the Aibishter.”

I will tell you what my mother would tell you ” zei nish Gut’s farzorger”. Don’t be Hashem’s worrier! Everything you say is true and YOU are obligated to follow everything you quoted. When these children are ready to return they will take on these obligations again. As I said before it is not up to YOU to judge them. Hashem is by there side every step of their journey and Hashem is working on his relationship with them. Trust in Hashem to work it out. It is not up to you to keep score on this.

WIF, as I said before you are not well informed in this parsha and therefore your observations are not objective, knowledgeable nor accurate. YOU are interpreting the TORAH to mean what YOU want it to mean. YOU are looking only at the pshat. And rarely is Torah ever looked at only for pshat. So what needs to be done is to apply the TORAH to today’s situation and today’s world because the Torah will always be part and parcel of our lives and yet life goes on and on and the world changes and WE change along with it. For instance, one of melochim we are not allowed to to on shabbos is make fire. Well we don’t make fire in order to have light in this century we turn on a lamp. However, our Rabbonim and Gedolim interpreted the Torah to today’s life and assured us from turning on electricity on Shabbos which in their opinion and interpretation is equivalent to light or igniting a fire. By your way of thinking, didn’t Hashem know when he wrote the Torah that eventually we would have electricity? Why didn’t he put a clause in for that? Didn’t he know we would have cars, why didn’t he put in a clause for that? In another thread it is explained why Gedolim assered swimming because we might build a raft for safety and horse back riding because we might break a branch to use to hit the horse. But in today’s generation we have swimming pools so there is no need to build a raft for safety. Didn’t Hashem know we would have pools so why did the Gedolim have to add that geder and why hasn’t it been removed?

Your words are extremely foolish and shallow and I am not going to waste my time arguing with you any longer. To me it seems you have a need to be right and thats it so you will argue your point to death. I will say this again. Yes children need to be taught responsibility at every level of their lives, but and this is a big but, the responsibility that they can be held accountable for has to be in line with their level of maturity and ability for that level of responsibility. And again I will tell you that YOU don’t understand the parsha because children do not just wake up one day and say “Oh, today I think I will go off the derech”. It is not a simple choice like what I will have for breakfast. It is a very painful situation, and it is a process because of an unbearable pain that is eating at them. A pain that was caused by another frum person either because of a dysfunctional family or a trusted Rav or mechanech! A child does not “choose” to be abused either verbally, emotionally, physically or sexually. And when that happens they do not choose to suffer the pain, humiliation and heartbreak that goes with it. They also do not choose to not know who to turn to and not know how to get help. AND they don’t choose to go off the derech it is a process that happens to them. Just like YOU don’t choose to get depressed and you don’t choose to have a tooth ache or cavity and you don’t choose to get a headache or cold. It happens to you and the only choice you have is what to do about it. The problem is children in the same situation try to help each other. The blind leading the blind and they lead each other off the derech. But B”H there is hope because there are others who help lead them back.

As for all those mathematical statisticians out there, good luck with your survey but really, there is no way to figure it out because it happens in every yeshiva, in every neighborhood straight across the board.

Philosopher, only Hashem is perfect! The rest of us are only human.

WOW! So much has been written! So I will add my two cents at this point. Tznius is a mitzvah and it should be a viewed as a Mitzvah “aseh” and not as a Mitzvah “lo ta’aseh” which is the impression I am getting from most of the posts, and that is where I think it has been going wrong basically.

The worst problem with the mitzvah of tznius is that it is not being taught in the way it should be. The beauty of keeping the mitzvah of tznius is not being taught neither by parents nor by mechanchim. The mitzvah of tznius is never discussed with young men although it should be in so many ways. Modesty really applies to both because it effects the entire Jewish family. It effects the way one dresses and the way one conducts themselves. So for instance, if boys assume foul language, that for sure is not tznius. If they run around in shorts or bathing suit or loud clothing themselves, that can also be considered a breach of tznius. Being a ba’al gaiver is also a big breach of tznius. I think you get my point. And the worst of course is getting drunk at a kiddush or other simcha.

As far as girls and women are considered. If they were taught the beauty of tznius and why WE are entrusted with this mitzvah as we are entrusted with some of the other very special mitzvos I believe there would be a different attitude. And yes, we can be tznius and fashionable at the same time. And yes we can be tznius and cover ALL of our hair at the same time. It is a matter of choosing to do what is asked of us because we understand why we are doing it and because we WANT to perform the mitzvah and not because we are forced to do so or we will be judged by not doing so.

A young woman who has spies following her on Sundays will definitely break the rules as soon as she graduates. Teach by example, and teach the beauty of Yiddishkeit, the joy and simcha of being Yiddin. Teach children why we do what we do and why we are so happy doing it. Why we appreciate the mitzvos Hashem has given us and we aspire to go from madreigah to madreigah. Kids cannot just do things by route. If they do at one point they will question it and when they don’t have the answers, they will choose not to do it.

Nothing will change until the Yeshiva systems we have in place make the changes necessary to teach our children in the manner that they truly need to be taught, with love and simcha for ahavas yisroel and for yiddishkiet, torah AND mitzvos.

EDITED

Philosopher, I didn’t say nor need I say that everyone of the kids I know came back. Nachas is not tied up in only returning to Yiddishkeit. Nachas is also tied up in becoming healthy, clean and sober. Nachas is tied up in knowing a child is alive and well and I am no longer waiting for a death call and I am no longer on a suicide watch. And yes my Nachas is also tied up in those who have returned, married, had kids, went to E”Y, back to yeshiva, etc. All sorts of nachas, b”h.

As far as Judging is concerned you don’t need to use the word in order to judge. Your whole speech is judgment itself. You haven’t walked in anyone’s shoes but your own, so you only know your own issues and how you handled them and the choices that you yourself made. Kudos to you and the way you handled yours. That doesn’t mean that others can or have to handle their nisyonos in the same fashion. Everyone’s variables are different. So when you say, that everyone has an opportunity to change “but”…. that is judging.

Yes everyone has an opportunity to change and come back and make different choices for themselves. So maybe tomorrow 10 more kids will turn around, and maybe next week there will be more, and unfortunately maybe tomorrow another 10 will be turned off the derech. Hashem is in charge and he runs the world. We are only here to help him. SO what CAN we do to help. We smile, we say good day, we give a handshake. We offer up a sandwich or a Shabbos meal. We try to listen to understand. We lead and guide by example. We love unconditionally for no other reason than that child is Hashem’s child, a Jewish child who deserves to be loved. He doesn’t need to earn it. I respect him or her not because she has to earn my respect but because RESPECT is a given. Hashem commanded me to respect ALL he created including human beings and therefore I respect them. AND when I show respect and give respect I teach others to do the same and so they respect me and show me respect in return. I don’t demand respect, i gain respect and I expect to be respected as I respect others.

AND BTW just because someone is a Rabbi and works with kids in the parsha does not mean they have any training what-so-ever to be doing so. There are a lot of Rabbonim and Mechanchim involved with kids who have done more harm than good with their bad advice and Tough Love attitude. I have a very different perspective. I prefer to Love Tough! That doesn’t mean that I don’t guide children to make better choices for themselves and to understand that the choices they make carve out the paths and roads that lead to their futures, and can actually define their future. But I don’t hold them responsible for their past. The pain they carry within them is very real. I try to help them give it up to Hashem and let Hashem be the score keeper.

Holding them accountable for choosing to go off the derech is like holding them responsible for being hurt by other people or for feeling the pain. On the other hand, an adult who chooses to go off the derech IS responsible for that choice because an adult has the opportunity to reach out to any number of resources to help them with whatever issues they are experiencing.