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I don’t know the Amora and I don’t know how the mephorshim at that time or at other times explained this. I don’t know who said it or where it is written.
What I do know is this myfriend, how does everyone here have the chutzpa to keep judging while we are all standing before HASHEM during Yomim Hanoraim, during Aseres Yimei Teshuva.
And you ask ME where I get the chutzpah? Do you know what? My email was edited.
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A father asking Hashem to kill his own child because she is too pretty? Please, didn’t he have enough faith and trust in Hashem that He made her that way for a reason? Couldn’t he have built a bigger fence or one that was not see through? Couldn’t he have wished his neighbor to be blind because he could not fight off his yetzer harah? Or better yet, couldn’t he have had enough faith in Hashem that he prayed for his neighbor to overcome his yetzer horah? Wouldn’t that have been a better lesson and end to that story? Hashem didn’t kill the child because HE made her too pretty. If it is true, he killed the child to punish the father for even thinking and asking for such an horrendous bakasha. Cheit avos al habonim.
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I believe wholeheartedly that anyone in an abuse situation needs to document it via police reports, attorney intervention, private investigator, witnesses, etc. before going into legal battle. Have your paperwork in order so that you build a good case and you have the proof to back up what you say. Don’t be stupid and don’t be blind so you get blindsided by the courts and your spouse’s well paid attorneys. If you have bruises get them photographed and documented by physicians. If you are emotionally and/or verbally abused go for therapy and get an affidavit from your therapist. If your children are being abused, get an affidavit from their pediatricians and therapists. Get everything in writing before you even start an action and keep these documents in an off premises “safe place” like in your mother’s or sister’s home or the bank in a “private” lock box or at your own attorney’s office. Don’t wait to go to court and have your witnesses chicken out in a public forum. People are more willing to help on the spot and document abuse in the heat of the moment than when they had a chance to calm down and are called in as a witness in court.
Even if you have battered wife syndrome (or husband whichever the case may be) and you choose to forgive your spouse each and every time, know that you might reach the point of no return and will come to the realization that you can no longer forgive and move on. So the documentation will have to be pulled out of storage and used to help you exit the failed marriage.
Yanky55 and minyangal, anyone who weathered the storm past 20 years and had to bail because of abuse or fear of “death by marriage” did not choose to divorce lightly or go into marriage thinking it was disposable. When dealing with a selfish spouse who refuses to be a partner to marriage rather a dictator and there is no way to make a marriage work after trying for so long, as I said you either make your marriage work or make your divorce work for the sake of the kids. You both sound like you made your divorce work for your own sake and the sake of the kids.
Although minyan girls seems to be happy, Yanky still seems to believe that you can have only one bashert in a life time and it was his lot in life to be married to “that” one that caused him so much tzar. I don’t agree with you Yanky and I am not Breslov so I don’t believe in suffering in this world so one can have a sweeter olam habah. I believe that Hashem has a zivig for you somewhere out there that will complement your lifestyle. Someone that will be your other half and make you whole. Someone that will be the ying to your yang if you get my drift. I believe that you are doing yourself a disservice by not looking for her. I also believe that your children will be much happier when you are happier. They love you and they want to see you healthy and happy and they want to see you a whole human being again. They would even dance at your wedding with glee and excitement at this point.
artchill, thank you for starting this post it is very important. I was one of the original three that started the JBAC, Jewish Board of Advocates for Children, the forefront of advocates fighting against Child Abuse in NY. The JBAC has a bill pending that will require the non-public school to comply and come in-line with similar safety guidelines that protect public school children such as mandatory finger-printing of all employees and staff, mandatory reporting of suspected abuse and other similar safety programs to keep our Jewish and other non-public school children as safe as their counter parts in public schools.
eclipse, one does not forgive an abuser for the sake of the abuser. One forgives an abuser because forgiving frees the victim of reliving the abuse and the pain over and over again. It allows the victim to let go of the anger and the pain and break free of the prison they are trapped in. One does not forget when they choose to forgive, they just choose to not invest any more energy into hating and thinking about that horrific excuse for a human being that hurt them and release themselves from the bond that connects them to each other and the pain and the memories. It is not an easy choice and it takes time to get to that point.
While the abuser continues on with his/her life without a care in the world or one ounce of guilt or regret for what they have done, not giving a thought to their actions or the pain and destruction they caused another human being, or maybe even many other human beings, the victims are almost stuck in time in many cases like a broken clock where the hands are frozen; living and reliving the pain and experience of the abuse, and enveloped in their hatred and disgust of the abuser. The effort and energy all that hatred uses is draining and grueling. Once a person chooses to forgive and move on, it is like breaking the chains that bind you to that person. So in essence you are saying “I forgive that person because s/he is in the hands of the devil and is doing his dirty work. He does not know better and cannot control himself. I will never forget what s/he did to me, but I will not waste one more minute of MY precious life on him/her. They are not worth even a mashehu of a thought. I know I will never forget and the scars will last forever but I will no longer be a prisoner of the pain they caused me, so I will forgive them and not allow them to hurt me any longer.
WE forgive for OUR own benefit, not for the benefit of the other party. Once we free ourselves through forgiveness, we don’t necessarily have to have anything to do with the other party. We just don’t internalize about them any more, we don’t waste our energies, our thoughts and our time relating to them in any way any more. We clear our minds to think and dream of other things. We are then free to live, breathe and dream pleasant thoughts and dreams. We can pass this person in the street and choose to completely ignore them as if they were never born, or instinctively punch them in the face and then continue walking. Whatever our choice they probably would not recognize us because they forgot about us, moved on to the next victim, and blocked us out of their minds and hearts. If it is someone close to us then for sure they blocked the incident or incidents out of their minds and hearts and would not acknowledge the hurt they caused or that they should apologize or feel some kind of charatah.
Evil and abusive people have no hasagah what-so-ever that they have accountability or responsibility for their actions. I hope the moderators don’t edit this out because it is very important. After 20 years, my friend’s abuser who is a very chashuv Rav and is now in his 70’s finally came over to his home with his sons to admit his guilt, because he is afraid that my friend will expose him in the press. He did this as a means to ward off the exposure. However, he refused to admit publicly (in the yeshiva) that he molested him and others and resign from the Yeshiva community and the many Vaads he belongs to. My friend was smart enough to tape him.
I asked my friend if he was satisfied with the acknowledgement and if it was enough for him to begin healing. He said it was not sufficient because it won’t help all the other bochurim which could even be hundredds whose lives he ruined. They need the validation as well. B”H, he understood what he needed to do to get on with his life, but he was concerned about those who didn’t. He complained as a teen in Yeshiva as did a friend of his. His friend got kicked out of yeshiva, he did not. He worries about what happened to that friend who went OTD because of this molester.
peselmalka, I think you are way off because if you want to help someone make changes that is not the way to do it. That is probably why she is at the madreigah she is at right now because of people who are pushing and shoving at her, and not because people are showing her the right derech in the right way as others are trying to point out here.
You can’t change other people only yourself and you can’t control others only yourself. So how do you bring about change in other people? In order to bring about change in other people, you can only change yourself and watch how others respond to your change.
Obviously yelling at movingmountains, will not encourage her or anyone else to lengthen their skirts or buy longer skirts in the future. Threatening her with gehenom or wrath from Hashem will not either. How do you know what she is going through and how far she has come that Hashem will judge her harshly? You don’t know that at all. You don’t know where Hashem’s compassion and rachmonos begins and ends so where she is concerned. Hashem will judge each one of us individually according to our own mitzvos and aveiros and YOU can’t tell anyone how Hashem will weigh them, and which will outweigh the other. So please put your pitchfork down and pick up a harp so you can play and sing a different tune.
WIY, Kol Hakovod to you, did you hear me Applaud you? i cried when I read your post. I have disagreed with you many times, but this time, you spoke from your heart and mine. You have eloquently stated what I have been saying for many months now. May Hashem bless you with all good things and may you continue to be a sheliach for Ahavas Yisroel.
There are many mekoros that are brought down. I can remember a few in Hebrew and English:
Al tadin es chavercha ad she tagiah bimkomo!
Don’t judge lest you be judged.
Hashem does not ask us to judge “his” people, he commanded us to love each other and do right by each other. He himself is the ultimate judge and jury. He commanded us to love our friends as we love ourselves, v’ahavta k’reiacha kamocha. It killed me on the “short skirt” discussion that the poster said “so called frum girls” and the moderators allowed that to go through. That was like a knife in my heart. How can one Jew say that about another?
G’mar chasima tova. You are right with this conclusion and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.
SJS, I agree that sounds rather cute and true by the way. If baby doesn’t sleep, no one sleeps.
Let’s all back up a little here for a minute. Did anyone else notice or is it just me, that “missme” started this whole rant but hasn’t made one comment since she began this whole l”h about the “so called frum girls”.
So what was the point if not to put down other people and walk away. Once again proving my point of the lack of Ahavas Yisroel. If this was a real discussion about how to help a situation and make it better, she would be involved in the discussion.
Again, I make this request of the moderators to screen the threads and make sure they are not topics for L”H, and allow only topics that are asking for assistance, information or respectful discussions on how to help the community at large.
J stores always carries beautiful things at reasonable prices. Gap and Old Navy can be checked on-line. Gymboree is another place you can buy at reasonable prices and their clothes are all cotton. Children’s place and Gymboree usually have the most bright and colorful items.
Not all marriages are perfect! Not all marriages are imperfect. Many marriages go through the waves, the ups and downs, the fights and make-ups, and the fights can be very harsh at times, and the big “D” word comes up quite often. But people still learn to work on the marriage and on themselves the bigger picture because “the commitment to the marriage, to each other, to the kids and the entire family” is bigger and more important than the issue, the fight and whatever the arguments were about that can be put aside, forgiven and put in the past. Sometimes couples can fight like cats and dogs and then calm down to be unrecognizable and fight no more. It is a choice people can make to make the marriage work. A lot has to do with maturity. A lot has to do with what is best for the family. A lot has to do with having bigger regrets if you break up than if you make it work. A lot has to do with realizing the “fight or argument” is not as important as the marriage.
Mostly, it has to do with the realization that Divorce is “Final”. Many people realize that they can’t afford to divorce and that is like throwing a big bucket of ice water in their face, forcing them to look at the reality of the situation and basically growing up to realize how immature and selfish each party has become. Another issue which we used to kid about was the kids. When we got into it, I would kid around with my husband and tell him I didn’t trust him to raise my kids so I have to stay with him. We also joked that we put too much effort into our house and neither wanted to give it up so we were stuck with each other. My friends used to joke that they would get divorced but “neither one wanted the kids” so they were forced to stay together.
Everyone has some issues in their marriage that they either choose to look away from or work on at some point or another. Since I work with the at-risk population and actually had a column in a local paper title “Parents at Risk”, my motto is “Make your marriage work for the sake of your kids” and if you really can’t then “make your divorce work for the sake of the kids” because you “chose” to bring kids into this world and you are obligated to put them at the top of your priority list.
eclipse, obviously the one who is abusive IS the SELFISH party acting on their own needs to vent and abuse and not getting help to stop and be a good partner in the marriage.
Every woman who had to go to the Mikveh on Shabbos or Yom Tov knows the halachas involved in how “not to dry their hair or squeeze it”. Furthermore, every man who goes to the mikveh Shabbos morning or Yom tov morning knows this as well. So why should the halacha be different if one takes a shower? This discussion has gotten out of hand and out of control. The issue is not how to dry off but the concept of washing oneself to begin with and the answer once again is ask your own Rav.
Cherrybim, if you know the person asking and you know for a fact that the person in question is absolutely guilty of those facts, you can then answer the question with, “i don’t believe it is a good shidduch for you. I don’t know the boy well, but the family is not the kind you are looking for” without going into more detail.
Sometimes when people get divorced, they realize it was a mistake and they then “work” on their relationship with their former spouse because they actually have charatah and have no clue what drove them to get divorced in the first place. Believe me they go through the “if only’s”. If only I had put more effort in while I still had the chance. If only I looked at him/her the way I see him/her now. If only i noticed him/her like I do now. If only I appreciated….(fill in any of the blanks). And do you know what Oomis, some of them do give it another chance after counseling and becoming friends again.
You can’t blame divorce on anything else but selfishness. Anything can be worked out if both parties are willing to be giving to the other. If either party is too selfish to put the other’s needs on the same level as their own, then that is the party that causes the irreconcilable difference.
No one can interfere in a marriage if a spouse is not selfish enough to let their ego get the better of them, and put respecting their spouse first.
Friends can’t interfere in a marriage, if one’s spouse is more important than the friends.
Parents can’t interfere in a marriage, if one’s spouse has the top position in their priority list.
Nothing can interfere in the marriage if you keep your ego, your selfishness, and others in check.
NO ONE has the right to check UNDER anyone’s garments. THAT in itself is NOT TZNIUS and anyone who thinks it is should have their heads examined. If the over garment covers everything the undergarment does not have to be closed up. It should be comfortable. That is going way too far and I could absolutely understand why kids would be turned off by it.
I mentored a young lady who lost her mother to a brain aneurysm. She was very young only 11 and she was one of 5 children. Her school did not know how to deal with her although she was a typical BY kid. One of the things she told me that hurt her the most was that they kept pointing to her top button and asking her to close it. She said they point to her button which was just three inches from her heart. They were more concerned with her opened button than her broken heart. That caused her enormous pain, so much that she did not know how to deal with it. It compounded the pain she already did not know how to deal with concerning the loss of her mother which her mechanchim also did not help her with. That caused her to rebel.
Couples need to know that Marriage is hard work and that you have to nurture a marriage, it does not take care of itself, what you put into it is what you get out of it. And that is the key “putting in”. The secular concept of marriage in 50/50. That is not the Jewish concept in marriage. The Jewish concept of marriage is 100/100 percent commitment. Meaning that each partner must give 100% to the other. When doing so, each partner also gets 100% and neither partner is ever lacking in anything. If one only gives 50% you are always waiting for the other 50% and you are always lacking 50%.
The other concept is that marriages are NOT disposable. Kids go into marriage with the concept that divorce is an option if it doesn’t work out. DIVORCE should never be considered an option. AND they have to realize that “not working out” is also not an option, they have to work on it, and work it out each and every day. Each partner has an obligation to their spouse, each and every day and their obligation is not to let anyone or anything get between themselves and their spouse in any way. That means people, parents, job, learning, etc. Whatever it is, whatever mashehu, they need to clear it up before it becomes something big. Even one’s own wants and desires should be weighed against their commitment and obligation to their spouse. Look at the entire picture, what is truly more important? Too many people put their own personal “needs” into play instead of taking into account what their “needs as a couple and family” are.
They also need to learn to forgive and move on and never to hold a grudge, learn to “listen to understand” and to apologize with sincerity. It is too bad when someone wakes up one morning and decides “they need something else” and walks away from their family. Well too bad on you, you made a commitment to your spouse and family and once said you needed them. Whatever you think you need today, is not as important as what the whole family needs, you “need” to get over it or work it into to the whole picture.
As said so eloquently before, LOVE comes and grows from giving and not from taking. The more you give and take care of another person, your spouse or child, the more you love and care for them and the more you want to love and care for them. So when you get married, understand that the person you marry is the most important person in the world.
Reb Bezalel Rudinsky tells his bochurim that a wife is a matanah from Hashem. One must never neglect or forget to show appreciation for a matanah. Women by nature are nurturers. Hashem made us that way. When a man reciprocates the relationship grows and flows continuously.
Wow, as I read your story I got chills.
BP, I haven’t read the article, but the whole basis for the series is the “charades” people play and the dark secrets they live with that form and shape them into who they have become. No one knows what goes on behind closed doors and the face people show you, may not always be a reflection of what they feel inside.
Many people say “oh he or she is such a nice person” but that may be very true on the outside. They may be very nice to others but not very nice to their spouse and children. So people do play charades all the time and that is what the series is about.
Talking about tznius fashion and magazines. My sons started a magazine in our neighborhood. You can’t even imagine the ads the frum clothing stores sent over to put into the magazine. My son had to photoshop the ads to build up the necklines and lengthen the skirts and sleeves in order to make it kosher enough to not offend anyone. Now our magazine does not have any divrei torah or articles from Rabbonim, it is strictly for fashion and yet WE fixed everything to be tznius and not offend anyone. These same ads went in “as is” to all the other frum media outlets.
No one complains about the ads, and the papers and magazines carry them week after week along with the stories of the parsha, midah of the month, etc. Money is money after all. And no one boycotts these papers either, they run to buy them, read them and advertise in them. If the very famous, hi class and fashionable stores in BP and Flatbush, advertise short skirts, short sleeves and tight clothing right in the top media outlets right next to a column from a prominent Rabbi, what message does that send? Stop blaming the young girls!
Moshe Rose, it is very nice that you bring this mekora from this sefer. If you believe in this sefer and the mechaber, then you should definitely follow everything he says. That being said, it doesn’t mean that your belief in the mechaber must transfer to everyone. If anyone has a sheilah about this or wants to know if he/she can go swimming with their own spouse they should ask their own Rav or their own Rosh Yeshiva.
This here is just a blog and not a place to pasken halacha, so each of us knows what we know and unfortunately we are sharing, but we are not rabbonim or dayanim and we are not allowed to pasken for one another what is proper halacha or not. So before you start having shalom bayis issues with your spouse, go to your own RAV and ask your own sheilos. And while your at it, ask them about speaking to your wife too.
google Modest clothes and see what you find. Also if you order clothes from the manufacturer you can ask if they will make it according to your measurements, add sleeves or send extra fabric.
Cherrybim, you have to believe it to do it. Unfortunately, the most insistent of people who feel they are right and have the right to impose their beliefs on others, have a tendency to push others away rather than draw them closer. So instead of impressing them with their midos and their mussar they push them away with their “bad midos” and “harsh mussar”. You catch more bees with honey than with vinegar. So those who have vinegar dripping from their lips are going to push others away with the bad taste that emanate from their lips. The tznius police are not helping in Eretz Yisroel and it is not going to help here either.
The only way to change the attitude of tznius is to be exemplary role models of midos and maasim tovim so that others would want to emulate you and be on our madreigah in all areas. You might only change one person at a time, but you will never know how that ripple effect will work out.
One does not have to assume that if you use various email addresses, you can beat the system. That is sneaky and not b’derech hatevah. Not what a company would expect one to do.
If you are asking what happened to honesty it is is a lost art, and not something that is practiced or coveted by some.
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I take offense to the posters term “so called frum girls”! The girls are still frum even though their skirts might not be to the poster’s liking. It is not up to the poster to judge their level of frumkeit.
The easiest thing to do is use baby wash which has the lightest consistency and rinses easily both from hair and body without difficulty. You can just basically pour it on your hair without rubbing it in to just make it smell nice and just use it to wash your body.
Try storing the clothes in plastic bags and add the cedar blocks and/or moth balls to the storage bags so it is contained within. Yes your clothes will smell from mothballs, but you can wash them or send them to the cleaners when you pull them out of storage which is still cheaper than buying everything anew.
If you want to influence others, you have to do it with a “gitte neshoma” and not with harsh words and pre-judgments. The only way to impress the beauty of tznius on others is to be a beautiful example of all that is good about Yiddishkeit and tnius. If one goes around pointing fingers you impress upon others the reason one should not care about tznius, to remove themselves from finger pointers and busybodies. There are ways to teach without insulting or embarrassing another person. For instance “that is such a lovely skirt, my daughter is a bit taller than you, do you think she can get it with a longer skirt so it covers her knees in all situations?”
Let us all start this new year with a new attitude, and that is to make Ahavas Yisroel a priority.
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It is very “easy” to be machmir and say that everything is asur. It is way more difficult to understand halacha to the degree where one can be “mekil”.
This only applies to Shabbos, since there is no issur to lighting candles on Yom Tov as long as you take a fire from an existing fire.
Yeshivabochur, age is just a number! When you are in a warm environment like that of this yeshiva, you are a chabura of talmidim and if you are a year older or a year younger than someone else, it really doesn’t matter. Go check it out for yourself. The z’man has already started, so take a ride, walk in and have a seat. Feel the ruach and take in the atmosphere and see if you fit in.
Reb Bezalel is of the opinion that it is a mitzvah for a man to be mepharnes his own family. The Yeshiva I believe runs a program with an online college. The man is an amazing talmid chochom and there is a lot you can learn from him both in Torah and midos. You shosuld definitely check into it.
Artchill, Oh if only, so many victims could begin healing! So many OTD’s would not be OTD’s! So many suicides could have been prevented! So many drug users would never have even started! So many victims would have never begun using and abusing their substances that they chose to numb their pain; so many victims would not have lost their faith and bitachon; so many victims would not have felt like they were alone among their own Jewish bretheren. Oh if only the Jewish community and its leaders understood their obligation to protect the victims and NOT the abusers THEY could have stopped so much of the abuse that is still prevalent in our society today.
You have to make sure that you do not cover the entire stove top or it will crack.
WIY, the point that you are dancing around with is that no one can be sure that the truth will not come out. NO ONE can know whether He or SHE will or WON’T find out. THAT is an impossibility. There is no way that YOU or anyone else can know that. So you are talking about an impossible situation. AND more likely than not in todays society of loshon horah you can probably count on the spouse finding out more so than not.
No you can’t it will break. What I do is fill a huge full size heavy duty aluminum pan with water and then cover it with its own foil cover, it doesn’t work with plain foil because it is not strong enough. I heat up the water before shabbos and then leave it on “low”. The heat rising from the hot water is even hotter than a hot plate and all the food on it stays really, really hot. I even leave potato kugel overnight on it.
So right, this is not a matter of halacha that we are discussing here it is a matter of an emotional nature and human nature. It is irrelevant that the Kesubah is invalid, would he marry her again then with a new kesubah? The kesubah issue can be easily rectified.
The question is would he not feel betrayed? Would he just continue business as usual or would he say the kesubah is invalid and you are no longer my wife!
If a girl kept her past hidden and did not tell her husband that she was not a besulah when she got married, would he not feel the same way? In many cases there is no blood the first night and there are many possible reasons for that these days. Or she fakes the blood somehow, but the truth comes out later, then its ok because she turned her life around and a Rav paskened that one does not have to divulge their past?
Don’t you think that a man would be just as devastated and want a divorce?
It is also important to understand that holding on to anger makes you a prisoner of your own pain. It takes a lot of energy out of you to keep being angry and remembering the insult. When you forgive or let it go it is a very liberating experience. It is like being let out of jail and breathing fresh air again.
I believe the answer is that it is harder and it hurts people more to watch children suffer than adults. When adults suffer we don’t understand that Hashem has a point or a plan and just say “that’s life, these things happen”. But when a child suffers it is not “bderech hatevah” and therefore we notice and it is so much more painful to see a child suffer than an adult because they are helpless and need others to do for them. We are crushed and FEEL the need to to for them more than we FEEL the need to do for adults for whom we make excuses for “they will manage; they did this to themselves; their parents will bail them out; and so on and so forth. But when a child suffers it does not have to be one of your own to break your heart and initiate a reaction to help.
So when Hashem truly wants to send us a message that we don’t seem to be receiving or accepting, sometimes it is the children who suffer to bring attention to the issues around us. When we see young people struck by illness or unfortunately death, the neighborhood gathers together and tries to make some kind of tikun or take upon themselves another mitzvah in the child’s zchus.
Funny but right on the mark!
ANONYM613, unfortunately you are correct and that is one of the big issues. We as parents, adults, mechanchim, teachers and Rabbonim have to be exemplary role models of yiddishkeit if we want our children to follow in our footsteps and continue in our heritage.
Many people forget that our mitzvos pertain to how we act to children as well as adults. Hashem does not put an age limitation on bein adom lchaveiro. It is also important to note that when a child seems overburdened and stressed out maybe due to something that is happening in the home, in many cases their mechanchem ignore it instead of address it and try to help the child to lessen the burden. Illness in the family is a huge burden for children and when c”v a parent or a sibling dies people usually have rachmonos and show concern just for the adults, the spouse or the parents who suffered the loss. They think kids are resilient and will just pop back. But that is not the case, kids need a lot of care and attention to help them through a loss. They have a lot of questions and they lose their bitachon and need assurances and reassurances that their bitachon will return. They need to know that Hashem did not abandon them, and that He didn’t punish them by taking away their parent or sibling, and it was nothing that they did that caused it to happen.
When a child need the support and understanding most from the people he relies on the most it is just business as usual.
That is absolutely so thoughtful and wonderful chinuch for your children as well. If the cleaning lady already exists a gift certificate for a manicure/pedicure or a massage is also extremely appreciated around yom tov. A beautiful scarf or pocket book is also a great gift. This is not her birthday or Anniversary so anything you choose will be appreciated even if it is not jewelry because of the thoughtfulness behind it.
WIY, again I have to say that you are not being logical but totally illogical. Secrets come back to haunt you and bite you in the behind. If you are not upfront with your potential spouse someone else will dig up the dirt and it will come out sooner or later. This is a tremendous sakana for Shalom Bayis and may lead to divorce. I know this for a fact and I have seen this happen. No one likes to be tricked or lied to and in case you haven’t heard lies by omission are also lies. There are gentle ways of telling someone about one’s past without chasing them away. And if a potential spouse chooses not to know well then that is their choice and one they both choose and accept to live with. In that case there are no lies because all the information was offered and rejected.
There are two major past discretions that one would need to discuss. One as mentioned before is drug use and the other is promiscuity. Both of which can have effects in the future. Heavy drug use can damage the brain, can damage major organs as well as cause emotional issues in the future. In addition, once you recover from drug addiction you are considered a recovering addict for the rest of your life. There is also a possibility that your children will be predisposed to alcohol and drug abuse so that is something that you have to be very concerned and careful about, meaning staying away from all forms of substances. In order to do that one would need the support and cooperation of their spouse. Imagine having an alcohol free home without an explanation. I can’t see that happening.
As far as having other partners prior to marriage, aside from the HIV factor, there are other factors which can be experience versus innocence. And of course the emotional factors of comparing one partner to another.
Should a young woman find out that her husband had other women before her and she knew nothing about it, that may end her marriage on the spot. No matter how frum the young man was at the time of the discovery. No matter how eidel or fine he was at that time. He would be looked upon as a liar and a gazlan. He would no longer be seen as “eidel or fine” no matter how much he had changed. Not only would this destroy his marriage, but it can cause HIM to lose bitachon and go back down.
I am telling you WIY, your male attitude and perspective is a very foolish and dangerous one. I am giving you a female perspective and letting you know right now. That if you had anyone in your life that you advised to keep his past a secret and not find a way to gently tell his future spouse that there are things in his past he is not proud of, but he is very proud of the way he has overcome his past and has risen above it and turned his life around; then you are guiding him down a path to disaster. Any bochur that finds themselves in this position should speak to their own Rav and even ask for their assistance in discussing the issue with the young woman.
There is one thing that you said that is quite true. A young man that has to work himself back up from such a low madreigah to such a sweet and emesdik madreigah is someone to admire and not shun. i agree wholeheartedly as I am a champion for Kids-at-risk. And they do deserve every chance in the world to succeed and live a beautiful and fulfilling life. Hashem has picked out their basherts, and those who are truly their sole mates will understand and admire them for who they are and for the courage it took them to be completely honest and respectful of them. Because marriage is based on honesty, trust and mutual respect. Not on lies and secrecy.
Wellinformed, you are really not well informed on this issue and you are not being realistic. You think that just because a person has a past he will marry someone with a past? But you just said that your posek paskened the past should remain there and he doesn’t have to divulge it, therefor he nor she will be looking for shiduchim that have the same background. Once they have “returned” they do not have to swim in that pool any longer as far as you and your posek are concerned. And just because an individual does not wish to remember or deal with their past any longer because they have b”h reached a higher madreigah that doesn’t mean that their acquaintances from the past whether they have improved or not can not be relied on to not say hello and not approach them with in joy in seeing their improvements or just to say hello. So that concept of yours is false and does not hold water. You cannot stop another person from approaching you.
And as far as what marriage is about, yes it is about the future but is also based on a foundation of honesty and trust not secrecy. If you believe that you can build a marriage on secrets then you are totally mistaken. A marriage built on secrets is doomed for failure. If this is the advice of your posek who deals in marriage counseling I wouldn’t trust him with any couple I know. He obviously does not have the appropriate training to counsel anyone. Couples who need counseling should go to trained counselors and not Rabbonim who dabble in marriage counselors. Rabbonim who concentrate their kochos in Shalom Bayis is another parsha altogether.
Well informed, whether your posek paskened that the past can remain in the past or not, is irrelevant between two human beings who wish to become as one. We are not talking about halacha we are talking about human nature. I believe that you are a male. Would you have wanted to marry someone with a past? And if she had a past would you be ok not knowing what it was? Could you become one with her and not have questions and doubts? Would you not want to know the whole truth so that nothing would come out in the future that could hurt you or your relationship?
As a female I can tell you that even if I could forgive a past, I would still want to know what it was. I certainly would not want to marry someone or have my child marry someone and then have some young woman approach him in the street to reminisce or even say hello to him and then I would wonder what his relationship was?
That is my point about bringing ghosts into a marriage. So the psak is irrelevant. It does not take the feelings and considerations of the future issues into account which can ultimately lead to divorce.
EDITED
Oomis, I don’t believe in shielding your child from the word “NO”, I believe it is the first word a parent should teach a child along with “I love you sooooooooooo much!”. It is obligatory for parents to teach children right from wrong, the difference between wants and needs, the difference between rights and privileges, the meaning of love and respect, and the necessity of rules and discipline.
Along with that a Jewish parent must teach a child that WE the chosen people must be oved Hashem b’simcha as you said. We will fall and get hurt but we will brush ourselves up and try again. Things will hurt us but we will persevere because Hashem is always by our side and will see us through our toughest challenges. We teach our children that Hashem tests each of us in different ways and we must rise to the challenge even though they are difficult and painful, and yet we must be oved hashem b’simcha.
However, through it all we must protect our self-esteem and self-confidence and not allow anyone to destroy it or damage it because that is also a precious gift from Hashem. Ours to own and develop to its highest potential and no one has the right to encroach upon it. Those qualities is what makes us the good Jews that we are. It is those qualities that allow us to stand up to adversity and to the other nations and say “We are the chosen people”. If we let others from within our own community take that away from us, then what is left? Who are we? Who do we become? We are nobody, we are a shell of a human being. We become OTD with no connection to our Torah and mitzvos. We look for shtusim to make ourselves feel better. We look for sedatives to numb our pain and loss. We float in a sea of nothingness searching for that strength to catch hold of that old peace and sense of security.
Haros, the problem could stem from the shock of it all. Those who you would think are not capable of sinking to that low level is so shocking that it challenges our bitachon. If we lose our level of bitachon, even just going down a step or two we lose our sense of security and balance and that can cause pure and utter panic.
I was speaking last week to a young man( 22) who is a recovering drug addict. He was telling me how he is working hard to be shomer Torah and Mitzvos and then he was telling me about his girlfriends and his conquests. I finally told him “You said you wanted to find the right girl and get married soon. Why don’t you start respecting your future wife and stop adding more ghosts that you will eventually bring into your marriage? You know eventually you will have to come clean and tell her all about this?” And then there was silence. About ten seconds later he said to me, “you just laid some heavy stuff on me. Your right, I’m so stupid. Why am i doing this it is meaningless? Wow thats really heavy”
Kids today are not being trained how to think about their futures. They are not taught about what hormones are doing to their bodies and how to cope with it, all they are told is what is assur and what is evil. They are also not told about the beauty of marriage and going into it pure and innocent and why that is important in order to have the most intimate and special relationship with their future spouse.