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Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, but if the boy is expecting to see a “beautiful” girl and is met by a plain jane that girl does not have a fighting chance to make an impression on him and vice a versa. However, if the truth were told “I think she is pretty, I can’t guarantee what your eyes will see” Or I think she is pretty but she doesn’t wear a lot of makeup, but she is very cheinidik. What is most important to you her outer or inner beauty? On many occasions I have told prospects “you can change a person from the outside in but you can’t change a person from the inside out!”. Appearances can be altered with make-up, lenses, different glasses, haircut, clothes, etc. And that goes for both boys and girls, but you can’t change a person’s heart or personality. Their inner traits and values are what’s most important.
Health, sorry to hear that. I hope you can forgive and move on. Hashem is the ultimate score keeper. Everyone will have to account for and pay for what they do to others. Nuch 120 everyone has to give their din v’cheshbon in front of their maker.
It sounds like this couple has not planted any roots in this marriage. The story was prefaced with “this is a column catering to a chareidi olam”. From this we can surmise that the couple did not have much contact other than the initial beshow and therefore did not really discuss much of anything with each other. So everything was discussed and arranged between the two parents. The girl’s wishes and dreams were either never voiced or voiced only to her own parents and not to the boy or his parents. So the husband can not be faulted from the start, only for not being understanding at this point as a husband.
The wife on the other hand, knew what she was getting in to, and basically wanted to derail a young man whose wish was to be a long term learner. So how did she set up her marriage? What kind of wife was she to her husband? Did she see to his every need? Did she make this the best marriage he could have ever hope for so when the time came that she would make this request it would be something he might consider? Did she see the joy he had in his learning? Where are they holding in their marriage at this point when she is bringing up this issue? And where is her love for her child as she makes her selfish demand on her husband who most likely did not have a clue that it was coming?
Is there any love and foundation in this marriage that a compromise can be worked out? Is the wife herself working and does not want to leave the child with a babysitter? Does she not value his learning? What are the issues at this particular point? Or are there no issues just the original concept that she and her father agreed on? All this needs to be looked at and taken into consideration. There are many pieces to the puzzle and most of the achreius obviously falls on the girl’s father who orchestrated the ruse. He should do whatever is necessary to save the marriage even if HE himself has to support the family.
When I deal in shidduchim I always, always tell those involved that lies will eventually rear its ugly head and bite you in the behind. We are not a society of secret keepers. Unfortunately we are a society of yentas. And although people may keep secrets when talking shiduchim yentas are way too eager to spread stories and rumors afterwards.
mw, I stand corrected, you said it much better than I. I appreciate your input and your eloquence. I guess I am just so drained I have lost my patience. Thank you.
it is really telling that when the trait of “being judgmental” is brought into the forefront the best anyone can do is “right back at you” accusing me of being judgmental because I mention it as a trait that needs to be worked on and be reigned in.
Well if you want to label me “JUDGE” for harping on the fact that I don’t appreciate when Jews keep judging their fellow JEWS unfavorably and talking about their faults in public forums, or gossiping about them among their friends then go ahead. Talk about me and what I am saying because the faster this “sinas chinam” stops the faster Ahavas Yisroel will take over.
BP & WIF, you are both right, it is half a dozen or one and six of the other.
As for “earning” respect that is a “secular” attitude. According to the Torah, RESPECT is a given and we are commanded to respect ALL of Hashem’s creations including people. And when we refer to people there is no age limit, young and old.
However, when one loses another person’s respect, in that case it is that person’s responsibility to earn it back.
Absolutely worse. WE never referred to our parents’ friends by there first names and that set a tone to how we addressed them and spoke to them without a doubt. We never considered a teacher “a friend” and knew to have respect for them even if we didn’t like them. And they knew how to draw the line and not to cross over as well.
As kids we all rode public transportation and looked forward to it. It was unheard of that a 6,7th or 8th grader got on a school bus. And yet, you would never find an elderly person or pregnant woman standing and a kid sitting on a bus or train.
At a kiddush or bris, it was unheard of that a child would sit at a table while an adult stood without a seat. And it was not just that the kids knew their manners, their parents knew their manners as well.
If we ever said anything that was rude or we saw that something we said hurt someone’s feelings it was automatic that we apologized immediately “Oh I’m so sorry, I didn’t meant to hurt your feelings” or “that was stupid, it came out wrong, that’s not what I meant to say”. Now a days, we will add a “so there” to the end of our sentence to emphasize the “shtuch”.
If we passed someone on the street, or needed to get by, never without an “excuse me” or “anshuldik”. Today we are pushed and shoved like branches in the wind.
Well then I think the root is AHAVAS YISROEL. I find that the current leadership does not show that as much as they show the ahavas $$$$$ in many cases. And the lack of Ahavas Yisroel can account for the lack of respect too.
so right as always so right
Its the same old “holier than thou” attitude and the “judgmental” attitude that Yiddin seem to have. Instead of understanding our obligation of “v’ahavta l’reiacha k’mocha” we are always busy with what’s right about us and wrong about the next guy. We lack the common aspects of respect and therefore feel it is OK to knock our fellow Jew.
So I suggest we practice RESPECT on a more global level and not letting all our thoughts escape our tongue or our keyboards. Take two deep breaths before speaking or typing your thoughts and think “how will what I am thinking be heard or accepted by the other person?”
Also without having to go to each other’s Rebbeim just keep in mind how your respective Rebbeim would greet each other or speak to each other. Would they speak to each other or even think about each other the way you do? And “Da l’fnei Mi Atah Omed!” each time you say something rotten or do something not nice remember that you are standing before Hashem and think about putting another weight literally on the aveirah scale because Hashem sees everything and knows everything we think and do and WE are judged for each item.
I think what is most lacking in this generation is RESPECT. I find that more and more. A general lack of respect and derech eretz for one and other, for people’s belongings, for community property, when speaking to one and other, when speaking to parents, when speaking to friend’s parents, when speaking to teachers, when speaking to students parents….
The list is endless.
HashemLovesMe, yes he does love you and he gave you not only bechira but as a woman a “bina yeseirah”. Which means you have the smarts to understand what is right for YOU! It doesn’t matter what others are doing do what is right for you.
A parent has an obligation to teach their sons a parnassah. It is a mitzvah for a man to be mepharnes his own family and yet it is a mitzvah for a man to study Torah.
Everyone must choose for themselves what is best for them. Some parents choose that they want to support their children in learning for as long as they can. This is their greatest pleasure and that is the type of sons and sons-in-law that bring them the greatest nachas. YOU can’t take that away from them and it is not the daughters that demand it. Yes, maybe some do, but parents have the right to say no. Personally that is not my derech nor what makes sense to me.
So please look for the right fit when seeking your bashert. Don’t do what your sem teachers told you to. Do what your own heart and brain are telling you to those are the thoughts and clues Hashem is giving you.
Hatzlocha Rabba.
I wanted to start a General Tuition Fund where askanim donated money to this fund and Yeshivas had to apply to this organization to be accepted and approved in order to get money for their students. They would have to follow guidelines and rules set by the Committee and Rabbonim involved like not throwing kids out to the street and only being allowing to kick kids out by transferring them to another Yeshiva; having a staff handbook; having staff training sessions, having staff review and report cards to make sure they are up to par etc.
When parents had trouble making tuition payments they could apply to the committee and the committee would deal with the Yeshiva and be the middleman. The parent would not have to go to the Yeshiva and beg or embarrass themselves. Once the committee finalized the “deal”, the parent would then send the payments to the “fund” and the fund would then pay the Yeshiva. Neither the parent nor the child would be embarrassed to go to Yeshiva, nor be afraid to complain if there was problems at the Yeshiva because they wouldn’t feel like second class citizens. The parents would not know how much the yeshiva would be getting in payments because they would only know how much they themselves would be putting in.
I feel that people would be more willing to donate to a general Yeshiva fund than to individual yeshivas because many people are feeling upset and angry at the way yeshivas are being run and how many kids are being treated. When donating money to a general tuition fund, you know that your money is really going to help the kids go to yeshiva and help their parents pay for their education. In the end it is a win/win situation because the Yeshivas wind up getting paid their tuition monies and the kids and parents have less of a financial stress and strain.
I cover the tables for yom tov because it is yom tov and because women are not mechuyav to eat in the Sukkah and you never know if we will wind up at the table sometime during yom tov. In addition, we never know if it will wind up raining or not during yom tov (which often happens) and the meal goes from outside to inside, Also the lecht goes out and in whether during the meal or after the meal, so we keep the table ready and waiting.
So is kibud av’vem, so is not to have kinah, so is al tignov, so are the other 7 which are the top 10. So I think we have taken this discussion to the limit and have made it sound like the worst aveirah sitting on the shoulders of women which it is not. There are many mitzvas in the Torah and WE are all not perfect and WE don’t get to point our fingers at others for their lack of adherence and WE are all at fault somehow and somewhere.
So as others mentioned before WE all have a mitzvah to work on ourselves BEFORE we point fingers at others and point out their errors, as long as there are areas in our own selves that need improvement we have no right to point fingers on others imperfections.
No you can’t say your mother is wrong, but you can say “maybe she didn’t realize”. It is the same thing when the parents allow certain things and the Rebbe says NO and the child tells the parents my Rebbe said we are not allowed to do that.
Helpful, when someone goes to a Rav for counseling and advice, even if they go for months, do they divulge that a potential mate? Why on earth does someone have to divulge that they went to therapy to help them through a difficult period or a bad time in their lives? Who’s business is that? No one’s business at all.
Now if the young person choose to speak about the rough patch itself, that is another ballgame and that all depends if that part of their life will have an effect on the couple and their future.
Rebdoniel, i don’t want to keep beating the same dead horse, but according to your own logic, then handing out your cards to people who most likely will just ignore you and throw it away is pointless because then you take on their aveiros. In addition you keep ignoring the fact that MY point is than you as a man should concentrate ONLY on men and stay away from women!
rebdoniel, I understand the gist of what your doing, I just don’t believe it is right and think it is better left to your wife and other women to do. On the other hand if you would address the dress code of the men in the city, that is another problem that needs solving.
In OUR neighborhood one of the Rabbonim still pats himself on the back claiming that he is responsible for chasing Victoria Secrets out of town. Literally he thinks he is responsible for closing the store because he had a huge campaign againts the store and what he called the pritzus they were displaying in the window. Now the other store that has been here for many years was not spoken about at all, just VS.
We have a frum dress shop here who has a few branches in other frum communities as well. She sells Wedding gowns and other upper class designs. Her windows keep displaying low cut, sleeveless and other non tzniusdik looks on her mannequins and the Rabbi didn’t say anything to her even though in her other store windows she is more careful what she puts in. Not one Rav complained to her that she should be and could be a role model for the young women in the community by showing her creations in a tzniusdik mode. So why VS, after all they are selling undergarments and believe me they were extremely mild in what they put in the window kal v’chomer what this frum lady put in the window was extremely revealing knowing that she knows better. So who is she trying to attract or what is the message she is trying to relay?
Even more so, why bring in low cut and sleeveless gowns when you are selling to a frum community? Why not have the manufacturer build them up for you before shipping them to your store?
So right, yes but is it appropriate for frum men to do it?
EDITED
Neither is “dropping” change into someone’s hand. At that instance only one person is holding the change at a time. So why did you bring that mashal and the correlation? It doesn’t fit the situation and neither does men handing “tznius” cards to women. It is not a man’s inyan it is something that should be left to women.
On the other hand if you would “PLEASE” hand those cards to men who wear those tight pants or whose underwear is showing, that would truly be a mitzva!!!!
If you are talking in general terms walking on the street, then you really do what your father and Rebbeim teach you to do. It is appropriate to show that you are always dressed as if you are standing before the KING, and your appearance elevates you to a higher madreigah always prepared to learn Torah and do mitzvos.
But that doesn’t mean that someone who does not wear and hat and jacket is wrong. I would say that one who does is mehudar.
Here is a secret. Most people are afraid to share because they don’t want their best place to get crowded!!!
You can also look in the back of the Artscroll Machzur. I found it there today and it is very interesting to read in English so you understand the meaning.
That is something that is well worth doing, taking the machzur and reading it in English or whatever language is most fluent to you so that you truly understand the meaning of your tefilos. That can certainly extend the meaning and hargashos of Yom Kippur last.
I don’t believe Reb Moshe would approve of his words being used in this instance. HE said it was preferable to give your business card in lieu of shaking a woman’s hand. He didn’t suggest that You walk around handing your business cards to women!!!!!! So please don’t twist his words to serve your purpose or to defend your position it just doesn’t hold water.
I am a woman and I don’t like the sevivah in Manhattan so I choose to go there as little as possible. I drive rather than take the train as much as possible so I have choices and so do you. And if I thought a man dressed improperly because his pants were too tight and nothing was left to the imagination, or his underwear was showing I certainly would not hand HIM a card that said “dress modestly”! It would not be MY business to approach any male. So looking at it from a male/female female/male perspective I hold firm and stand firm in by belief that it is not your place or any man’s place to look, approach, speak to or hand women anything especially when they are not dressed appropriately or have any business involving your family or parnasah.
Yes that is overkill. You do not have to sit in a hat and jacket in your own home, nor in anyone else’s home. I doubt the Rabbonim named sit with their hats on in their own home or even in their own office. There is a time and a place for everything and you need to use your seichel at ALL times. Would you wear your hat and jacket while playing with your kids on the floor, or while feeding them or changing them? Do you wear your hat and jacket when you are eating or do you really just need it for benching?
If a man has his sneakers on and is going for a walk for his health do you think it is appropriate to have a hat and jacket on as he is building up his heart rate? It is kovod Hashem to wear the proper livush, but if you wear the livush at inappropriate times then is it a kovod or a busha?
Sacrilige, you are right. Young men need to know how to tell their wives, in a nice way, that too much hair is showing, their sleeves are a little too short, the skirt is a little too tight, etc.
While a young women is single it is the parents responsibility, once she is married it is the husband’s responsibility and if he doesn’t say something from day one, he won’t say anything later either.
During sheva brochos I called my son into my room and told him something regarding his new wife. He said “you tell her” I said it was not my place as the “shviger” to tell her it was his place. So he said her mother should tell her. I said her mother isn’t here and now that she is married I don’t think her mother will tell her. It is up to him to tell her. He didn’t. Well the way it started is the way it continued. My other son ranted and had a fit about it and why I don’t do anything about it.
A few years later he got married and during sheva brochos I called him into my room and told him the same thing about HIS wife. He said “you tell her” and there we went round two. So I called him a hypocrite. When it came to your brother and his wive you had so much to say on the subject but now that it is your wife you are a chicken to say anything? You are a hypocrite. He ran to my husband and told him that I called him a hypocrite. My husband asked why I did and he told him. So my husband said “I agree you are a hypocrite, you with your black velvet yarmulka and your tzizis hanging from your belt.”
And so it goes, I told my son-in-law to say something to my daughter. He said “I’m not telling her you tell her”, I said I already told her and she said “I have a husband”. He said “its not my place to tell her”. OH YES IT IS!
I don’t believe you should be looking at women, talking to women, or handing things to women! When I go to a store where there is a chasidish or yeshivish man at the register he puts my change on the counter and doesn’t even drop it into my hand.
If there is that much pritzus on the train and in the city, maybe you should consider that you are traversing in the wrong sevivah and go elsewhere!!!! Give the cards to your wives and find something else to do in your spare time.
I want to say something about being a role model and teaching OTD and others who “wish” to move up. I was mentoring this teenager many years ago and she told me that she was upset with her Rabbi because he told her she had to hold negiah for 30 days and now he told her to extend it. She felt he tricked her and she wasn’t sure if she was going to listen to him because she felt tricked and didn’t trust him.
So I honestly asked her what the real issue was, did she feel that she had to have physical contact with the boy in order to be friends. She asked me what I was getting at. I told her that if any boy chose not to be her friend because she wouldn’t allow him to touch her then he wasn’t a friend at all. That anyone who didn’t respect you and what you believe in is not worthy of your friendship. That got her thinking.
Then I asked her why she feels the need to have boys in her circle of friends. Again she asked me why I was asking. So I explained to her that she wasn’t thinking about her future only the here and now. In not too many years from that time she would be grown up and be considering marriage. When she will choose her soulmate she will have a string of “friendships” that will be ghosts she will be bringing into her relationship with her husband. How terrible it would be if she will later compare her husband’s smile to that of another “friend” or his laugh or his looks, etc. How would you feel if you had to worry about all your husbands old friends that he might be comparing to you? That is what you risk when you mingle in mixed company, bringing ghosts and barriers into your future marriage.
A week or two later she came back to me with this story: A group of us went on an outing in a big van. The guys were helping us to step out, when it came to my turn and he held out his hand to me I said “no thanks I hold from negiah”. When we were all grouped together he made this big announcement. “I want to congratulate “L” because she goes to P1 and the rest of you girls go to BY. She had the courage to tell me in no uncertain terms that she holds from negiah and would not allow me to assist her out of the van”. Mrs. B, she said, my mouth dropped open I thought I was going to cry, then all the boys started to applaud and whistle for me. They all said how proud they were of me.
Two weeks later she came back and told me she said goodbye to all her friends that were boys and told them that she decided not to speak to boys any longer. They all wished her well.
Today she is married to a very yeshivish boy and she is the most tznius girl you can imagine. You can’t even find one single hair escape from under her teichel, nor will you find any skin showing.
so right, unfortunately provocativeness is an issue, but by us I don’t believe it is to attract men, it is to be rebellious and show they don’t care. It is just as much to hurt and thumb their nose at the “establishment” and frumies who are shocked to see them break the rules. It is a matter of I don’t care, it looks good on me and i’ll do what I want.
Even older married women walk around that way in front of their own sons. So are you saying they are being provocative towards their own sons? Are they trying to be attractive for their sons? No, that’s not it. They just don’t care to cover up.
Sacrilege, I live in the Frum “real” world. One where competition among women is fierce! Are you aware that there are stores BP who have to tell their clients who else they sold the outfit to? And they have to guarantee they have only 1 or 2 pieces and will not sell it to anyone else?
Do you think any of the men in shul come out and notice the clothes the other women are wearing? Honestly they just want to get home and make kiddush. Do you really think they know the difference between Escada or Prada? Or unless they themselves are into designers do you really think they know who Hermes or Jimmy Choo is?
How high is high enough in a heel? Most men are just waiting for you to fall over and are tired of carrying your shopping bag when you change into your flats or sneaks for walking. And of course they make fun of all the women who can barely walk in the shoes they are wearing.
Maybe we are not the same age, or maybe you are not anywhere near the world that I live in, but in “MY WORLD” that is the truth. Even in the goyish velt, women dress to impress women. The cut, length and provocativeness of the outfit is meant to attract men, but the fit, style, design, designer, price etc, is all meant to impress other women.
Boys are on one side girls are on the other at a wedding. Even if they should notice each other it is rare that they can find out who the other is unless they can somehow meet in the lobby. But when we are talking about BY girls that is not the case. So they are really dressing up for the WOMEN who need to notice them in the sea of other girls. And the bochurim today are so into letting their parents handle their shiduchim so no, the girls are not working on attracting the boys, really they are trying to attract the girls.
Those boys and girls looking to attract each other don’t need to do anything but be themselves and they will find each other. They don’t need makeup, they don’t need fancy clothes, nothing more than a jeans skirt and a tee shirt, or pizza and fries. Even more important is an opinion or an original thought that is even more important and attractive. There is a line in a movie called “Jerry McGuire” the line is “you got me at Hello” and that is the most attractive this day and age. All it takes for boys and girls who need and are looking to connect is a warm, friendly and sincere “hello”. Sometimes that is all a young adult really, really needs. And I am not saying “needs” in the sense that they are looking to connect with the opposite gender. I am saying that they need a real friend and sometimes it winds up being someone from the other side.
The tables are beginning to turn on this thread and the light is beginning to shine through. On this day of judgment the consensus is becoming clear that “JUDGEMENT” should be left to the Eibishter and WE should remember what we ourselves are begging from him “K’racheim av al banim”
We beg for Rachamim from Hakadosh Baruch hu. So I am also begging you my fellow bloggers for Rachamim, compassion and patience with your fellow Jews. Stop judging them. Stop looking for mekoros to prove that they are wrong and you have the right to judge them. We are all doing something wrong at some time according to Daas Torah. Just by being on the internet and communicating with each other we are ALL WRONG! So please let’s stop judging others and stop arguing which aveirah will carry the worst punishment because you don’t know how Hashem feels about what we are doing right now.
Once again I wish all a G’mar Chasima tova and an easy and meaningful fast. And once again I ask the moderators to close this thread.
PS Mdd, there are NO limits when it comes to dan l’kaf zchus, that is your job and then you walk away, you don’t keep delving and investigating. You stay out of it and leave them alone. Only a yenta and a busybody pokes their nose in another person’s business. If it is not involving you then you can just stay out of it and leave it at that.
SJS is right, Frum women dress to impress other women! Young frum women dress to impress other young frum women. Girls dress to impress older frum women who are looking for shiduchim for their sons!
One of the things that I believe would be helpful and I mentioned it before but no one picked up on it, is if the yeshivas would give mandator sewing classes and make them fun and creative for the girls. Teach them how to take any skirt that “no longer fits” and make it longer. Or open the seams and make it a little looser. Fix a dress that is tight and make it a little looser and add something pretty and creative to the end of the sleeve to make it a little longer.
If the girls learn how to do this in school for their own Shabbos clothes or everyday clothes to make them last longer, then when they get out into the real world or when they go shopping on their own, it will be a no brainer that if the designer skirt is a little too tight or a little too short, they can add their own touch without much effort and “make it work”.
However, this will only work if it is done in the right way. If the “tznius morah” teaches the class with her whip in hand it is pointless.
In addition, if they learn to sew their own clothes they might find they have no need to go out and buy designer clothes but they can be their own designer, and who knows what the frum clothing industry would look like in the future.
So sad but true.
Mdd, our Jewish Idea is Dan L’kaf zchus. That is how WE are permitted to judge if we are permitted to judge at all.
Kapusta, I have asked about 5 or 6 times. I guess they like you better than me, because my requests never got posted or were deleted from my posts. I second, third and fourth the motion!
myfriend, the “so called frum girls” were judged and anyone else who considers themselves frum but are not on the highest madreigah of tznius as deemed by the people here on this thread. That is who is being judged by the people posting to this thread during Aseres Yimei Teshuva. Can I make it clearer than that?
If you started a thread about Shabbos, why would you need to mention that driving on Shabbos is assur? That is a given and it is well known. There are no shades of grey in that area unless of course there is an emergency or someone is having a baby and they are rushing to the hospital. OH but then you would be misjudging them if in your post you said “I saw a so-called frum jew driving his car on Shabbos” You see, it is not up to you to speak about it. The same principle applies here as well. It is your job to “dan people l’kaf zchus” especially your fellow jews and not speak loshon horah about them. even if you don’t use their name you are still besmirching your fellow jews.
Putting on lipstick and mascara is also assur on Shabbos but I see a lot of women who are definitely wearing fresh lipstick on Shabbos. Is it my place to go over and tell them that they are not allowed to do that? Absolutely not! Because for one thing it is not my business. For another thing, maybe they really didn’t learn it or didn’t apply what they learned to this issue, make-up. And thirdly, if I told them and they continued to do it, it is even a worse aveirah and I don’t want to be a part of that. Here is another example. I have been to the manicure spa many times when I have seen frum women in a rush get their hands and feet done at the same time by two different technicians. Now I was taught (yes in Kallah class by a very machmir teacher) that two people are not allowed to work on you at the same time, it is assur. Only in the case of a niftar or nifteres is more than one person allowed to work on them. That is why you might hear a parent reprimand if they are buttoning a child’s coat not to help them, only one person should do it. So back to my example, when the ladies want to rush me out and come at me two at a time I tell them I am not dead yet and only one of them can work on me at a time. They remember that when I come in but they ask me why the other religious ladies don’t say that to them. Is it my job to tell the other ladies they are wrong? Maybe they were never told what I was told. My mother would say “zei nisht gut’s farzorger”.
Pashutah yid, he was not “tough” and I am not contradicting myself, HE was consistent and he played fair not dirty. WE all knew that there would be fire drills. And we all knew that if you were caught with a short skirt you would be sent home to change. You weren’t suspended, you weren’t berated you were sent home to change. Now home could have been 3 blocks away or most likely Boro Park and even Canarsie since Central was in Flatbush where Shulamis is today. And believe me it was no fun going home and coming back when it was cold, rainy or snowy outside.
And another thing, we were also dealing with outside influences because we were in the hippy, mod, make peace and love not war, LSD, pot, Vietnam, SSSJ, JDL, Rav Meir Kahana z”tl generation. We were in the mini and maxi skirt generation. And btw the new Jewish sensation MBD, who did not stand still when he sung his songs, if you remember how he started out. But interestingly enough WE didn’t have an issue so much with necklines and sleeve lengths. It was mostly the knee length. So I don’t see where you find me contradicting myself. Never did my principal ask a woman teacher to check under a sweater, or measure a skirt with a ruler. We all knew how and where we would be caught, we all knew the rules and we all knew that he didn’t want to deal with our parents but expected us to act like adults.
We also all understood the inyan of negiyah and had open discussions with our Rebbeim in class if any of the girls were sitting on the fence about it. As kids the question came up about gloves, and if one is wearing gloves is it still considered negiah. At that point the Rebbe closed his sefer and said that it is important that we have a frank discussion so that everyone understands the rules clearly and concisely and the reasons behind it.
WE also had pre-kallah classes in our senior year. Just enough to know that we would need to go to Kallah class when we got engaged. We came out of High School knowledgeable and prepared for the outside world.
myfriend, if you don’t see judgment in these posts then I am afraid that you are blind to the meaning of it. You must have been desensitized.
I agree with you. There is also something that someone mentioned on the other thread which was that the “tznius” morah would lift a girl’s sweater to check if her shirt underneath was buttoned appropriately. Now I am a woman and as a young girl I would be totally embarrassed and humiliated if anyone, even a woman, did that to me. To me that is totally not tzniusdik, lifting a girl’s sweater to check what is underneath. It is appalling to say the least and totally degrading. Most probably meant to be so. Any similar measures that a “tznius” morah would use would certainly turn off any student and would “force” her to rebel not only against the system but against the issue making her own choices in the future of what she felt her idea of being a tzanuah was. And if in her mind being a good frum Jewish woman who didn’t embarrass others by looking up their sweater or measuring their skits by touching their legs with a ruler, then that’s it. They might have been so embarrassed by these “so called tznius morahs” that they closed the book on what those morahs said represented tznius. I probably would have also.
Let me tell you what my HS principal, a”h, did in Central Brooklyn. He was very fair minded and didn’t chase anyone he conducted “fire drills” and he stationed himself at one exit and another frum teacher at the other exit. As the girls left the building he looked down at the skirts. If he felt your skirt was too short he said “go home and change and looked up to see which young lady he was sending home”. If he passed anyone in the hall who he felt was not up to par he would call them into his office and tell them to go home and change. But he always did this in a quiet way without embarrassment or fuss. If he called you into the office more than a few times, he would politely tell you “I see that you are having difficulties living up to the standards of this school and that is fine for you if that is what you want and need. But that is not fine for us. So it is your choice, if that is what you choose I will be happy to call Rabbi “X” at Yeshiva of Flatbush and arrange a transfer for you. You have 10 minutes to give me an answer.”
The other thing he did was check our lockers and confiscate the “long skirt” that seemed to make its way around some of the girls to cover up the shorter skirts they were wearing. It just seemed to disappear into thin air. After a while the girls didn’t bother with it. That was the extent of it. The rest of the inyan of tznius was the role model of our Morah’s and the respect we had for our Rebbeim..for instance one of the Rebbeim said, “you know girls, I really cannot be in this room with you and teach you Torah if you are not dressed appropriately”. That is all it took. He didn’t point his finger at anyone, he didn’t say your knees are showing, he didn’t talk about knecks or elbows. We respected him for his honesty and all the other modest teachers for believing in themselves and their choices.
I don’t think anyone in Lakewood is going to admit having a connection and invite the poster over.
Yanky, may I give you a brocha this Yom Tov season?
May Hashem heal your broken spirit and may this year be a year of brocha, simcha, mazal and hatzlocha for you and your children. May you only “hear” pleasantries and good news, may you only “see” beauty and the hand of Hashem and may you only “speak” words of happiness, good news and contentment. May you smell the “roses” on the road ahead, and may you “touch” the softness and the gentleness of the heart that is waiting to be found and discovered by you. May the joy and simcha that awaits you inspire all those around you to the goodness and graciousness that is Hashem and his creations. May you be zoche to health, arichas yomim, parnasah, nachas from your children and success in all you do.
This is getting to be absurd, now you are judging who is frum and who is not. And you are comparing apples to oranges. I didn’t know that Hashem appointed you his helpers this Yom Tov. I am glad you don’t know who I really am and you don’t daven in my shul because you would tip the scales according to your own opinions. I prefer letting Hashem be the judge and weighing what he chooses are the worst crimes and the best mitzvos.
I told the moderators that I was leaving but i keep getting dragged in trying to bring some seichel back to the olam. Remember we are standing before Hashem on Erev Yom Kippur and you actually are deciding who is frum or not depending on the length of a woman’s or girl’s skirt. Absurd!!!
It is important to understand how each person “needs” to be respected. It is not only important to understand how to respect others, but one has to get in touch with their own personal evaluation of themselves and know how THEY need to be respected. IF in any given relationship your needs are not being met and you and your needs are not being respected you really should take a good hard look at that relationship and see if it is really working for you or if it is only working for the other party in the relationship. I tell that to all my clients whether it is in a friendship aspect, a parent/child relationship, girlfriend/boyfriend, teacher/student or marital relationship. Lets look at the easiest of all relationships – friendship. Sure it is great for them to have you as a friend, you are a great friend and they are getting everything out of the relationship that they need, but are you? Evaluate if you are being respected int he relationship? If not bring it to their attention and see if they are willing to make the appropriate changes and adjustments. If not you need to make decisions about the relationship and why you are in it. Now you might not be able to make those decisions on your own. You might need to discuss them with someone, your parents, your therapist, your Rav. But eventually you are going to have to decide if the relationship is working for you or if you are going to have to move on and find new friends. Not everyone necessarily is going to be in your quality world or in your immediate circle of quality friends and relationships. Sometimes those closest to you today are not going to last throughout your entire life. And that applies to relative as well. Your closes cousins that you bond with when you are a child might just be a distant relative to you when you are an adult. If you don’t work on your relationship through the years, that can and does happen.
So the number of times one goes out with a person, or how much time people spend together might not be the real issue. The real issue is how you develop the relationship and how you respect each other throughout the relationship. Love is really not enough.
I try saying, I would rather not listen nor speak loshon horah. That usually ends the conversation and moves on to another topic. Many of my friends do the same. Or you can say “I took it upon myself not to speak or listen to loshon horah, can we move on to another topic?”
Pesselmalka, I am a woman and a very tzniusdik woman at that. I have mentored many young woman and have changed their minds on the tnius issue in addition to the negiah issue and not in the way that is being done here, thank you very much.
apushitayid, women don’t learn Gemarah and from what you are saying, it is not clear where the story ends nor what the point of the story is. So it is hard to understand the meaning of the story. Yes it still leaves questions unanswered and I imagine there will be many chochamim still debating and trying to figure out its meaning. As for me, what I get out of the story is a lack of emunah in Hashem on the part of the teacher and the talmid. (Of course I know that not to be the case since we are talking about an amora from the gemora, so I just don’t understand the gemora is what I am saying.)
missme, did you here me telepathically keep saying “wish you were here”? I was wondering where you were all this time everyone was contributing to your rant about the “so called frum girls”. Personally I took offense to that term, it was very hurtful and inaccurate because no matter your opinion about the length of their skirts they are still frum girls and hopefully will continue to be. It is quite odd that you left us to fend for ourselves after you dropped this big bomb on us.
In my humble opinion, it should be left to Rabbonim and they should give mussar on how tznius should be taught to young women, in the vein of the beauty of the mitzvah and not that Hashem will punish you and burn you at the stake. Parents and mechanchim alike should be informed on the teaching process immediately and others should be told that it is not up to them to give tochacha since they don’t know how to do it in the right manner.
EDITED
Here is one: Closing down threads that get out of hand.