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soliek +1
GAW, it is a well known fact that Hashem does not discriminate when dealing the nisayon cards. Those who scream that “your child may affect my child” might be the very same ones that are begging the RY to keep their child in yeshiva the following year. Furthermore if we understood as a community and as a yeshiva system in general the reasons why kids go OTD, and make appropriate corrections to combat the process, we will be in a better position to help those kids and work with them instead of shoving them along their dark journey. There are many more mentors and volunteers in each community that are more than willing to get involved and come into the yeshivas to help out.
DY, once again you jumped to conclusions and thought you knew what I was thinking and what I meant rather than what I said. I was speaking about the topic in THIS thread and you were referring to a topic that I discussed in another thread. I thought you agreed not to do that. At any rate, that is another discussion altogether and I had no intention of kidnapping this thread and taking it there.
Sorry yitzchokm, I still disagree with you and prefer to agree with Rav Pam’s way of thinking. Teach the child and he will teach the parents. I have a much more positive perspective and I know, from my experience that keeping a positive approach to children will yield positive results.
DY, what does it have to do with MY opinion?????
We are talking about why kids go off the derech. The parents bring the child to the yeshivah that would be best for the child. The school rejects them out of hand because they are so insecure and have not taught their talmidim why they do what they do. They have NOT taught them why they follow the rules they follow. They have NOT taught their talmidim how to answer questions if asked. So they are afraid that taking a child from a little bit outside of their own community can cause such havoc.
The parents are doing the right thing trying to get their child into the yeshiva they think is best for them. What more should they do? Should they lie and put on masks when they go for the interview like so many others do? Should they pretend to be someone they are not, like so many others do? Is it the livush that makes the person?
On the other hand the yeshiva can say, “when you come to the school whether to pick up your child, or for meetings or functions you will be expected to dress according to the rules just like your child. And for the mother “and cover your hair properly”. If the parents agree there should be no problem with it.
yitzchokm, people have their own reasons for their choices and it is up to the various yeshivas being applied to, to ask that question “if you are not that makpid in your own home or in your own levush, why do you want your child in our yeshiva?”
It is possible that the child falls between the cracks. Or the child is more serious than the parents or is looking for more, or the parents really wants the best chinuch for the child even if it means the child will be different and more frum than they are, or will ask them to make changes in their lives.
It is horrible that so many of you are looking from the other perspective as are the yeshivas. So many of you with this stinkin thinkin almost think there is a conspiracy going on where people who are a little to the left are getting together trying to bust into ultra frum yeshivas in order to destroy them. How utterly ridiculous, what would Rav Pam z”tl, or Rav Moshe z’tl say about all this?
Why not?
Firstly that idiot should be arrested!
mdd, outrageous? Not quite, they understood that Teaching Torah comes along with derech eretz, something many have forgotten today!!! Also they understood the quality of people form the inside out, as I said before and they weren’t trying to outfrum the frumest. It was a time for healing and rebuilding one step at a time, and that is something that this generation needs to learn as well.
Learn to pick your battles and you will have better success. What is more important the neshoma of the child or the levush?????? Will the children from the home of a family a little to the left influence the other children or will the other children have more of an influence on them AND will the child who learns in this yeshiva influence their parents?????
Why do the yeshivas have such a lack of confidence in themselves and their students that they fear so much from a young innocent child that is a little bit different than them? Look at what SHUVU has done in E”Y with russian children. Parents don’t even have to be frum and there children go to Shuvu schools started by Rav Pam. The children all learn about Torah and Yiddishkeit and the childrn turn Frum and influence their parents to do the same.
When a child comes to a school, the school gives the rules to the parents. If they agree then so be it. Why are they so afraid? The child has to conform to the rules. It is so sad how everyone is running around chasing their tales being busy with everyone else’s business. Does the yeshiva want to know if the outwardly “kosher” parents cheat on their taxes? Take off their yarmulka when in the presence of goyish business associates, act differently on vacation where Hashem does NOT exist (Miami, Hawaii, Caribbean, etc.) after all, how does that influence their children???????? What about the administration themselves? Are they perfect beyond scrutiny?
Give me a break, this is the hypocrisy the kids see and are turned off by. Not only the kids that are affected by but other kids who see it and are disgusted by it. It is just plain “stinkin thinkin”.
Actually, you get married and REAL LIFE BEGINS!
The type of discussion and heat of the discussion right here would be enough to push anyone OTD. The absolute black and white and no shades of grey arguments of all those who are so sure they are right and no two ways about it. Well I have news for you, YOU weren’t there back then and YOU don’t know what was going on. The norm back then was mixed seating and it was a big effort on the part of the Gedolei Hador at that time to change things to where they are today. And if you think that all communities have shifted over like NY, NJ and Eretz Yisroel you are wrong. From the people that I have met from Chicago it is still the norm there. Which is just an example of the NORM of the time as was the style of the day. Women in general were NOT as immodest as they are today, so it wasn’t all that much of an issue as it is in today’s society.
Women did NOT necessarily cover their hair in the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s. Sheitels were just coming into their own in the late 60’s. I remember when my own mother put on her first sheitel and started covering her hair. It was when my cousin got engaged and asked his mother to cover her hair because of the family he was marrying into. His mother told my mother (her sister) of the request so she complied as well. She told her sister-in-law (my father’s brother’s wife) and she complied as well as her own sister. This was the domino effect of the time.
I have photos of my FIL and MIL from the early years. My FIL was a Rav who was a mechaber of a sefer (not too shabby) and he didn’t even have a beard. My MIL wore a hat over her very visible hair. When I got married he had a full beard and you couldn’t see a loose hair on her head. Photos of my sisters-in-law when they got engaged showed the knee very obviously, these were Bais Yakov girls who also wore braids.
Please don’t spout what you don’t know. You weren’t there, you didn’t live through it, so don’t jump to judge. There were many gedolim at that time who, believe me you don’t even come up to their “knees” and never will. For you to denounce the women of that time and come out with judgments that they didn’t follow psak halacha is being motzi shem rah on an entire generation of frum eidel women. Basically our mothers and grandmothers and I for one don’t appreciate it. If NOT for them you wouldn’t even be here nor would ANY of you be the frum people that you are. If it wasn’t for them re-establishing frum kehilos and yiddishkeit here in the United States and abroad, If it wasn’t for their pure and selfless emunah and bitachon in Hashem which wasn’t easy at that time, none of us would have what we do. So please, stop being so very smug and all knowing because you really don’t know all that much.
One more thing to add to my list – when people around them concentrate more or what they look like on the outside than what they feel like on the inside. It is more important to be a frum yid on the inside than make a fuss over the livush and appearance on the outside. You can change a person from the outside in but not from the inside out. That is a biggy. As one young woman told me “After my mother died when I was 11, they were pointing to my top button that was open, but my heart was but three inches away and it was shattered into a million pieces but they didn’t speak about that. Not one of them asked about my broken heart and how I was doing, they were only concerned about my open top button.”
No it isn’t at all. It is like shidduchim. The buyers give the brothers a list of “Must Haves” and the brothers show them a house exactly with everything on the list. The buyers also gave the brothers their budget in which they want the brothers to find them everything on the list. So the brothers have give them a reality check and show them the home they want in the neighborhood they want that has everything on their list. Then they ask them “how much do you think this home costs?” That is the reality check. When they find out, they are shocked and say “We can’t afford this!” No kidding! On the other hand, the brothers take them to a run down house they can afford either in that neighborhood or near it and show them how they can have everything or nearly everything on their list in that home with some imagination and renovation. You can take anything with potential and bring out its potential when you understand that you have to be real and understand that you can’t have everything custom made your own desires, there are compromises along the way.
This is a good lesson for shiduchim. When someone gives a shadchan a list of requirements sometimes a shadchan has to give them a reality check “have you looked in a mirror lately?” “what do you have to offer such a prospect?”. Seriously, lets say the shadchan can actually match everything on that list, what does that person have to offer in order to get a yes from that perfect person with all the requirements?
This is a good lesson for life in general. Just because a person has a wish list or a want list does NOT mean that Hashem has “agreed” that they should get it and they might have to do a reality check. Stop looking at what you neighbor or family member has, stop looking at what you think you should have or you think you want and maybe try to understand what you really can afford or what Hashem really wants you to have right now.
RB, the giver doesn’t owe anything and should not offer to do anything if they don’t intend to do it with a full heart no matter what it takes to accomplish it. That’s the point, if it is an inconvenience to the giver then don’t give.
Thanks, we can all use a bit of chizuk!
Why kids go OTD:
Dysfunctional homes
Divorce
Illness at home
Death in a home
Molestation
Hypocrisy
Getting lost in the crowd
Pain or humiliation caused by a Rebbe or Teacher
Bullying
Too many rules, or changing the rules without rhyme or reason
Not understanding the rules
Living the life without the “simcha”
Not being told or shown the reasons for living this way
Not being shown the emunah and bitachon that goes along with Yiddishkeit
Not being shown the “love” of yiddishkeit
Not being shown the “love” for learning Torah
Not being shown or taught the “love” and “joy” of Yiddishkeit
Need I go on?????
Oomis, I am so shocked that RB is still defending this position and arguing this point. It is almost painful to read his posts. I am not sure if he is doing it because he has a need to win the argument or because he really believes what he says. If he is just trying to win the argument, according to what the general consensus on this thread is, he lost. If he truly believes what he says then we are not going to change his mind, only his own Rebbe can do that or c”v he will have to be on the receiving end to understand it.
You can either speak to him politely and explain that there are people of both cultures living in the building and that the lobby is usually decorated to reflect that. Or you can speak to the landlord.
There is no way of knowing unless people or women are willing to discuss if and what medications they are taking. I highly doubt anyone would be willing to discuss it because it is private and no one else’s business. Unless one were to do an anonymous survey to try to asses that answer you will never know and even then you will never know if you are getting the truth or not.
“When doing a chesed, I would hope none of us would do a shabby job because we dont see as an act someone is paying for. Both require being done in a mentschadik way.”
Agreed.
BTGuy, the point is, the were not “given” the assignment they took it.
Woa. Do you know the girl personally? Do you know that this is an issue with the girl? How do you know that the girl’s father doesn’t smoke. Can you imagine giving information to the father and saying “BTW, he smokes” and the father saying “so do I”.
No, unless they ask, it is not your place to say unless you know the girl personally and know this is a pet peeve of hers. She will find out about it soon enough in addition if it is bashert he can quit or she will find a way to work around it. If it is NOT bashert, there will be another reason she will find that he is not for her, or she will find out on the first or second date and it won’t be your achrius.
Halevi, it wasn’t a shift, it was a flow from the conversation. It wasn’t a matter of blame it was a matter of seeing where the source of the problem was. When you peel back the layers you have to be prepared to see the whole truth and not be blinded to what you don’t want to see.
No one is immune from making mistakes this includes doctors, pharmacies, hospitals, insurance companies, parents, mechanchim and Rabbonim. We are all human.
What a sorry state, so far I have only heard good things about the BC in my neighborhood and I know many volunteers and recipients. B”H we have a very chessedik community to begin with and people are extremely serious when it comes to doing chessed. So I only hope and pray that it is not my neighborhood that is letting you down. Everyone does chessed in their own way, and my calendar is booked with my own projects. Other members in my family do volunteer to drive and they do it with kovod and care. MY sil tells me how she gets chizuk from her passengers. That is a whole different scenario.
When a volunteer comes home and tells her family, I had a passenger today that taught me a lesson in emunah and bitachon we can gain something from that and we understand why that person is doing the mitzvah, and why she goes back again and again.
My father a”h was a baker and he was around during the day. Women didn’t drive then as they do today, so there weren’t that many cars driving around BP during the day when I was in school. My father would go out and pick up elderly people and women with babies from the bus stop towards Maimonides hospital and give them rides, especially when it was very cold or very hot. People would say to him they don’t want to be matrioch him and he would reply matriach? The car goes wherever you tell it, it is never a tircha,
Goq – most evovled
MP – Most Personable
Health – Doctor in the house
DY -Da Ya know?
AZ -Ah Zoi iz is
Syag L’chochma – Soul Lady
Always Here – Actually Human
Always Running with Scizzors – A Reason for Spa time
Baal Habbooze – in Vino Verite
Kapusta – cabbage cures all evils
squeak – much better than “oink”
cshapiro- Kallah Na’eh
I’m going for humor here, no offense meant in any way. I apologize if I offended anyway.
I agree, now is NOT the time of year that we reflect on the year’s tragedies, basically OUR year has just begun.
Why should 9 year olds going to shul with their fathers instead of davening in school. Is this itself the problem?
I disagree on the Hospital issues. Hospitals keep patients as long as their insurance coverage will allow. Every patient and every coverage is different. Every hospital is forced to conform to what the insurance plan will pay for. It is NOT the choice of the hospital. The hospital will do everything in its power to make sure the patient can stay as long as they need to. If the beds are not filled the hospital does NOT make money. It is in their best interest to keep the beds filled. However, if they will not get paid by the insurance companies, they have no choice but to send the patients they can’t fight for, home.
The fact that it was an obvious bribe and not a reward such as going to breakfast with Tatty or a consequence losing a privilege if he didn’t go was the point the parent missed here. Rewarding a child with missing a day of school was off the mark.
And by the way, I have had the experience of really needing a certain prescription that my insurance company did NOT want to pay for. So insurance companies do not eagerly agree with doctors when it comes to just handing out drugs, and my doctor had to fight for me.
Here’s mine:
Misery loves company, don’t be the company!
I believe the responsibility on this falls at the feet of the father. For whatever reason he didn’t take his son to shul at an earlier age. Once a child learns to daven in school he should go to shul with his father and daven in shul. Of course every child is different and not every child can be expected to sit through the entire shabbos shul experience. Every father needs to judge for themselves how to work that out. In this case the father started taking his son to shul at 9 and had to bribe him to come. This worked for both of them and they also understood the ground rules and where it would end.
They had an agreement in place and it worked for them. There is nothing wrong as long as they both understood how it was going to work and how and when it was going to end. I don’t recommend this as the best way to go about this, but in this case since it worked, it worked. On the other hand, the boy could have negated his end of the bargain at the end of the year and pushed for more bribery. Bribery is NOT a good idea in any situation. A reward and consequence system is always a good way to teach responsibility but not when it is used to manipulate one and other. Rules should be very clear cut and should be in place in advance.
In this case I believe that the father started too late with his son and he should have made it clear that it was the son’s responsibility to go to shul at this age. If he did not require him to go to shul at 7 or 8, he should have been training him at that age, that when he reaches the age of 9, he will then be a big boy and he will be responsible to go to shul with Tatty like a big boy. Making it the son’s responsibility would then put him in a position that he is required to do this, that siblings younger than him are NOT, or may not even be allowed to do this, and this is a coming of age thing and something to be proud of like riding a bike, crossing the street, etc. However, with that privilege comes the responsibility and commitment. That means there is a consequence if you don’t follow through and do what you are supposed to do. This is the total opposite of being bribed.
It is the son’s responsibility to go to shul to daven. This is an important part of growing up and if it is important to both parent and child then parents have to show the importance. If it is NOT then the child should NOT be bribed to do it either. That is NOT good chinuch and that bribe was a little too manipulative. What does davening in shul have to do with having a day off from school? Why would he or should he deserve a day off from school for doing what he is supposed to do? Why not offer him a Hot chocolate, doughnut, bagel, a ride to school after davening or extra time with Tatty each time he goes to shul with Tatty. Not all yeshivas want kids to go to shul with their fathers and would rather have the boys daven together in school. It all depends on what the yeshiva wants. But if the rule is to go to shul, then a child has to be taught and trained to go because it is their responsibility and it is the right thing to do.
I have a serious question for all those that think doctors are getting a kick back from the pharmaceutical companies. How exactly are these drug companies keeping track of which doctor is prescribing how much of their drugs to which patients?
Do you think doctors keep a running list every time they write a prescription? Do the scripts go from the pharmacy to the drug companies? Do you think the pharmacy keeps a list of which doctor prescribed which drug for the drug company to see?
Please explain exactly how the doctor is benefiting and how this is monitored?
Always, in order to work on oneself, one has to take a good hard look at themselves and see what needs improvement. Don’t try and make too many changes too soon, or try to do too much too soon that will only be a recipe for failure. Think of something you would like to work on and then make an effort to do better in that area. When you feel better about that, it will help you to feel better about yourself in general and allow you to move up to another area.
So if for instance you want to make improvements in the area of loshon horah, concentrate on that for a while until you really have a handle on that before you choose to tackle another area. Make sure you feel good about your accomplishment and you are confident that you reached your goal, then you can happily move on to another.
Being noticed is always better. If a woman picks up the dry cleaning for her husband and he says “I noticed you picked up my suit for me from the cleaners, thanks so much”, she will feel it was worth the trip. If things don’t get noticed a woman also feels taken for granted. If a husband forgets to say “Honey, dinner was delicious, thank you”, how much effort does the wife keep putting into making delicious dinners? After all the husband doesn’t really notice or care, right? He just eats whatever is put in front of him and is never grateful for the effort involved.
My husband recently asked my nephew the chosson what he learned from his Chosson Rebbe. He replied the 3 A’s, “Attention, Affection and Appreciation”. It works both ways.
It is very difficult to accept someone else’s suffering and pain since we don’t know why Hashem does what he does. Is it possible that a parent suffers what would or could have otherwise c”v meant to have happened to their child? Is it possible that we pray so hard for our children or the welfare of a parent that we make a deal with Hashem to take on their tzar instead of allowing them to suffer? Are good people suffering as a kaporah for others? This is all possible. Do people suffer in this world so they can have a truly peaceful Olam Habah? That is possible too. Do we watch others suffer to awaken something in us? To make us pull out all the stops, to call us to do real teshuva? To examine our own lives and make changes?
Any and all of these are possible, obviously I don’t have the answers. I do know this, when we see others suffer it changes us. WE can’t possibly be the same. We stop and think, yes we examine fact from fiction, priorities over nonsense, truth from fallacy, good from evil. Black and white somehow develops shades of gray. Somehow it doesn’t matter who was right and who was wrong anymore. We bring our values more into focus. We tend to count our blessings instead of whats “missing”. We find compassion where we didn’t know it existed, we find time we didn’t know we had, we do things we didn’t know we were capable of and we “do” just because we can.
We find our own inner strength and we do our best to try to bring it out in the choleh or the less fortunate soul as well. We fight for them and we try our best to make them fight to. We do what we can to lessen their burden, in allowing them to share their pain, to vent their frustrations we actually allow them to unburden a little bit of pain and suffering each and every time. As we allow them to share with us, we lessen the pain and suffering for them. WE do our best to understand that Hashem does what he does for a reason. We don’t know the reason. We are not meant to know the reasons. We are meant to have the emunah and bitachon just to accept that Hashem has a plan for each and every one of us and he tests each of us according to his own plan. It is up to us to do the right thing to pass the test.
The test for that person is the pain and suffering that they are going through. The test for us is what kind of support are we willing to give that person during their pain and suffering.
Ilovecoffe, you make a very good point. If you don’t notice exactly what was done, you can say something like “it looks different in here since I left, what did you do, honey?” or something like that. Or since you know that he tries to help you, make a mental note of how you leave the house without expecting anything. Write some things down in the car like “dishes, laundry, beds” and then before you leave the car glance at your notes, it might help you to notice when you walk inside.
Health, WEALTH and happiness?
MP, you are so modest. MP stands for Modest People. Thanks Tahini, that is very sweet of you. I did have a column years back in a local paper.
Where and Who?
RB, you chose to communicate with me and others and push your point. I was NOT abusing you, I was answering you as others were and only making sincere suggestions to you to take this question to someone who you can trust to give you an honest and sincere explanation.
RB, it is YOU who chose to post an answer harshly on this thread and it is you who has been quite harsh in your responses to mytake basically telling her that she is ungrateful being the “beggar” that she is expecting more than she received. Maybe that wasn’t really what you meant to say, but that is the essence of the message you relayed over and over again, no matter how many others have debated you and pointed out to you that you have the wrong view of this particular mitzvah.
I don’t know if you are arguing for the sake of arguing, if you have a need to be right or you really are confused about this issue. I made a simple suggestion to you that you speak to your own RAV to hear what he has to say about it. I don’t consider that abuse but good advice. If you find that offensive I apologize. Are you willing to apologize to mytake for abusing her?
and Happiness?
Halevi, lets get real here. Everyone has a hand in this, not just the doctors, not just the parents OK? The schools are as much to blame as anyone else, they are not blameless and they are NOT clueless so lets NOT leave them out of the equation. To do so is to be deaf, dumb and blind. If you want to be honest about a problem then we have to be honest about the problem and face up to the truth. You can’t choose who to blame because its ok to blame the parents but hands off when it comes to demanding that Roshei Yeshivas and mechanchim be accountable and responsible.
Parents and mechanchim share a partnership in raising and educating children. We have to look in both areas honestly when there is a problem and we have to hold both sides of the equation equally as responsible when they are successful and when they are not.
mra01385, is it that hard to notice when the house you left alone in your husband’s care is clean????? Yes YOU should notice it yourself. He shouldn’t have to tell you. Would you notice if he did NOT clean up?????
Health, unfortunately they do.
Health, unfortunately there are many mechanchim who just don’t know how to control a class and were never trained to be mechanchim. They prefer to medicate the kids to gain control of them than work on their own skills in building respect and communication with their students.
Health, you should also mention that many parents unfortunately go to the doctor with the fact that there kids will NOT be allowed back in school if he is NOT on medication.
mra01385, Husbands want to be appreciated as much as wives do. As a wife we don’t necessarily go around showing appreciation to our husbands for going out to work day after day doing their regular ordinary day to day job. So if our husbands pitch in around the house and do things that WE ordinarily do, they should absolutely be recognized for it and appreciated. If you were called into your husband’s office because the secretary was out sick, you would want to feel appreciated for helping out wouldn’t you? If you filed away a stack of papers at work, and put a stack of files away, and closed out the months or sent out all the invoices or whatever else pertains to your husband’s business would you not like to be recognized for your efforts?
Whenever anyone lends a hand one should always show appreciation, how much more so, should one acknowledge their loved ones especially their spouse? This goes for both genders. A spouse that is respected and appreciated will “want” to help more and do more. A spouse that is NOT recognized will not make an effort again.
DY, we are both Yiddin so of course. We are after all on the same side, to do right by all Jews, so we just have to agree to disagree politely and courteously. May you always have hatzlocha in all your endeavors.
Who are we to say “I deserve”???? By the same token who are we to say “I don’t deserve”? Seriously, we are all created b’ztelem elokim and therefore if Hashem chooses to bestow upon us his goodness and his blessings we must accept it graciously and understand that we do “deserve” it because we are Hashem’s children and deserve both the good and the bad that Hashem chooses to send our way.
It is counter-productive to say I don’t deserve the good Hashem sends me. Of course I do, and of course you do. Hashem is in charge of his schar and onesh system and it is HE who decides what schar and for what mitzvah each schar is given. We are ovdei Hashem, and we are here to do his bidding and do the tafkid he put us here to do. We don’t know what that tafkid is, so we do the best we can and we keep trying to do whatever mitzvos present themselves and take whatever opportunities we can to produce them on our own. We work to deserve Hashem’s blessings. WE ask for Hashem’s blessings, kindness and goodness. How can we then say we don’t deserve it???
We all deserve to be loved just for the simple reason that we ARE Hashem’s children. WE all deserve to be blessed because we ARE Hashem’s children. And we all deserve Hashem’s kindness and goodness because we ARE Hashem’s children. We each possess the love, kindness and goodness that he created in us and that he awakens in us and without the blessings, kindness and goodness that he pours into us, how could we possibly give that back to others?
By going to a podiatrist and NOT trying to handle it on your own. The worst thing you can do is play around with it, try to cut it out, and make it worse. It can be very painful and you can wind up with an infection on top of everything else. Go to a professional and let the Doctor take good care of you.