aries2756

WOW, I don’t believe in buying them cigarettes. It is a terrible habit, one that is very difficult to break. I refer to them as cancer sticks and I would not help him kill himself. I watched my own child struggle many times over trying to break this habit . B”H he did but when he was very stressed out in the past he would foolishly pick it up again and then stress himself out till he stopped again.

I would say instead “if I didn’t love you as much as I do, I would buy you the cigarettes. But they are a nasty habit. One that can’t be shaken easily and is harmful to you. I can’t contribute to something that can hurt you.”

Cigarettes are a gateway drug. It is the first step into other substances and I am sorry to disagree with here to help, but I do. You do have to draw the line and that is not helping them harm themselves and also not breaking the law. Here in the states you have to be 18 to buy cigarettes and 21 to buy alcohol. Parents do not have to break the law to show that they love their kids. Role modeling that they have to abide by the rules on the other hand and not breaking the law (at any time) shows kids that their parents are not hypocrites.

WOW, you can’t say it at all. Unfortunately, he has to hear it from someone else. Kids are much more willing to accept a message that comes from another party rather than when it comes from their parents. They are closed off to what their parents have to say, and many times don’t even hear the words. They only hear and accept words of comfort and love and will not even allow criticism or suggestion to filter through to their brains. Those messages have to be relayed through a third party and that is ok. Right now your job is to offer him the love and comfort that he needs from you and not any form of correction.

Interjection, yes they are accepting at first, but they don’t want to be reminded either of the past they left behind and encourage the change. They ask why he is still wearing a “kippah” does he really believe in it? They ask why he is still wearing the “oreo uniform” his is no longer in yeshiva so why is he being so stiff? They tell him that they will teach him how to dress and chill. Lets be real here. They tease and cajole until they are all on the same page. At that young stage in life they are all scared and don’t know how to be an individual, they all have to be a part of something, they have a “need” to belong. If he were the leader of the gang then he would be the one influencing the others and the one in control. But that is not the case here, he joined their group and changed his appearance, attitude, personality to be just like the others. The more time he spends with them, the more his personality changes to be part of that group.

I am not saying that any of those boys are bad. Personally I never met a bad kid, just kids with bad problems and I am sure each and every kid in that group is carrying their own heavy “pekel”. They are not trying to hurt him or harm him in any way. They are not trying to cause machlokes with him and his family, they are not trying to do anything other than be in the moment and not worry about the next one. I truly believe that each and every kid on the street has been badly hurt in one way or another. Each one is licking their wounds and looking for ways to heal. Each one feels rejected in one way or another. No child should ever feel that way. Every child has the right to feel loved and wanted in every area of their lives. They should feel that the adults in their lives care about them and will protect them from harm and will never let them down. They should be able to count on adults to keep them safe, to be honest and truthful, and to be the best role models for them to follow.

A kid’s job is to be a kid, and that comes with mistakes and successes. But that’s just how a child is designed to learn and to stumble and then learn from their mistakes and move on. An adult’s job is to recognize that kids make mistakes and those mistakes should not follow them into adulthood or ruin the rest of their lives. Kids are kids and adults need to stop expecting them to behave like adults and be punished like adults. Adults put way too much pressure and way too much responsibility on kids, we involve them in too many adult issues and when they want to be treated like adults we just laugh at them and disrespect them.

We don’t watch what we speak about in front of them. They are pulled into our financial situations and are not shielded from our worries. They are pulled into our personal relationships and are not shielded from our arguments and breakups. In many instances they are subjected to mechanchim that should never have a place in the classroom. They come home to an empty house or a home where there is a housekeeper who doesn’t even speak the same language. Many children are left to basically raise themselves with no parents at home when they leave for school, no parents at home when they come home, and in many instances no one home to help with their homework or tuck them in at night. And then you have the issue of bullying where the hanhallah refuses to get involved. What is wrong with this picture???

Just about everything. What can we do about it? That is a whole other thread altogether.

WOW, it sounds like you felt like a mother again today, b”h. Write that down in your own personal journal so you can remember it when times get tough. It will help you to remember that he is still in there somewhere and what you see is just the outer shell. He does love you and he is not doing this against you, he is working hard to NOT CARE. Or better yet, to show he doesn’t care but really on the inside he does. He if doesn’t care then he can’t get hurt. So remember it is all a defense mechanism.

The issues of whether a child should or shouldn’t take a shower during the nine days when his heart is broken and he is going OTD is mute. It is not a decision or a choice a parent makes for the child, it is a choice that child is making for themselves and therefore it has nothing to do with the parent. Hashem does not judge the actions of the choleh in such a case and therefore neither the parents, nor those peeking in on this situation should either judge nor discuss whether he is permitted to do so. The achrius is on the child alone and not the rest of the family. If the child was ill in any other way there would be no question, if he had a fever he needed to break, if he was sweaty and felt his bones were aching, etc. there would be no question and there is no question here. He is doing what he is choosing to do under the pain and weight he is burdened with and the parent has no control right now over his choices.

There is no point in picking apart his choices and what he is doing, it will continue to go against the norm and against the grain. What one needs to concentrate on is their own actions, their own tefillos and their own histadlus. In order to get through this most difficult nisayon one truly needs to strengthen their emunah and bitachon and one does that by saying “Hashem I know that you are listening and I know that you are watching over my child why he is going through this nisayon, please keep him safe and let him know that you love him and that you are by his side and will never leave him.” That is the most important part of this whole journey.

WOW, I don’t agree with your husband at this time, not when he is so angry and is not showing respect. That is only a play for power and control and that will most likely backfire. Maybe the best way is NOT to try and control the situation by pushing the envelope. Maybe the best way is to say to him or write a note saying that you can’t control how you feel any more than he can and you worry about him when he is out with friends you don’t even know late into the night. Let him know that you are doing your best to respect his needs right now and that respect and consideration is mutual in a relationship. Then let him know that Tatty needs to lock up before he goes to sleep for the safety and security of the family. Let him know that you discussed lending your key to him with tatty to be returned to you when he comes in and you want to discuss that with him and see how he responds.

You can decide where he can leave it when he comes in as opposed to you looking for it or waiting for him to wake up to return it. It might not impact him right now but he might realize later that you worked together on a solution to a problem.

Hatzlocha

HTH, pointing out to a child that people have bechira and are responsible for their own choices no matter what religion they are, thereby pointing out that it has nothing to do with the religion itself but the person that the child feels hurt him, is NOT defending religion it is making a very important point. One that he will still be learning on an ongoing basis.

I agree that a child in pain does not want to hear or discuss religion and it is not important to do so. The main issue is his safety. Keeping him healthy is one’s main concern. That is the top priority and that is where unconditional love comes into play. Children do not come with warranties nor guarantees. They are born to us from our flesh and blood and are ours to love and nurture no matter what. That is our test. Hashem entrusts the gift of life, children, in our care. He doesn’t promise us perfection by no means. He did promise us “tzar gidul Bonim”. That is our challenge and our nisayon.. These are our children through good times and bad, through nachos and through challenge. Whether we walk, crawl, slide, climb, or slip through this dark journey with them or we are zocheh to dance at their weddings. These are our gifts from Hashem, and it is our job, obligation, responsibility, honor, and joy to love unconditionally no matter what. No matter whether they follow our dreams for them or they choose to follow their own.

One thing that we learn from such a challenge is that we must never miss an opportunity to tell our children that we love them. Whether it is when they walk out the door, walk in, when we end a conversation or say good night, you just can’t say it enough and they can’t hear it enough. Think about it, for those who didn’t hear it enough from their own parents, how did that make you feel? Learn to say it to your own children, even if you are not going through this challenge and especially if you are. The more you say it the more natural it will become and the more it will mean and be believed. You might even begin to receive an “I love you too” in response. Everyone has a need to be loved and feel loved and hearing the words regularly goes a long way.

Even anger is sometimes tempered when one hears “I am sorry you feel angry and hurt, I love you and if I am the cause of your anger and pain in any way, I truly apologize.” a sincere apology can also go a long way. One has to understand that even if they don’t think they did anything wrong, if their child feels hurt and needs the apology, it is very worth it because the hurt and pain they feel is very real. It is also a lesson one needs to teach, that parents are also human and are capable of both making mistakes and apologizing. As humans we are all prone to making mistakes, no one is perfect. And we are all capable of learning and improving, as long as we live and breathe we still achieve to keep learning and improving. We are even capable of learning a thing or two from our own children no matter their age. Some of us even learn to stop and appreciate the simple things in life from the youngest of our children. And we can and do learn things from the challenge and nisyonos that our children in pain go through.

One thing that I have learnt and taught many parents in this pasha is to separate our pain from that of our childrens’. For many parents it is very difficult to stop worrying about what the neighbors and other family members think or how our child’s behavior reflects on us as parents or our position in the community. This is a tremendous learning process. The pain a parent first goes through is their own pain until they realize and understand that it is NOT about them at all and it is about the pain their child is experiencing. And that is a very real and sometimes excruciating overwhelming pain. Once a parent gets past that hurdle with the help of a mentor, Rav, coach, or support system, they can better deal with and understand the dark journey their child is dealing with. It is a tough realization when faced with the question “what do you care about more, what your children think of you or what your friends think of you?”. When you get your priorities in order you will truly find out who your own real friends are. Those that really love you and care about you will support you and your child no matter what. They will love you unconditionally just as you love your child unconditionally and they will give your child the same support and love you do. This also paves the way for a child’s eventual path to return home; the faith, trust and love of and unconditional support of others.

What we need to understand is that we cannot control others or their choices we can only control ourselves, and we can’t change others only ourselves. So by being the best and the most honest role models we can be and by leading by example we set the stage for others to respond to us in a positive manner.

“Last night, my son bombarded me with all the things I did wrong his whole life. He’s angry with everyone in his life from his RY, mashgiach, yeshiva friends, Shul, parents, neighbors etc etc. At what point, if ever, does a teenager begin to look at himself honestly and say, “Maybe I’m too sensitive, maybe I’m too controling. Maybe it’s partly me”? As long as my son blames everyone in his life for leaving the derech, how will he ever come back? My husband and I are supposed to be ‘loving and accepting’, but my son is making life unbearable. With all the support I have, I still feel like I’m hanging by a thread. How are we supposed to survive this?”

WOW, I haven’t looked at this website for many months. I don’t know why I peeked today but this is a subject I am very concerned with so I have chosen to comment. Firstly I agree about Avi Fishoff, I have much respect for him. He has written a book on the subject so I am sure if you google him it will lead you to contact information. We emailed just last week about his current program with parents.

Regarding your post above, to me this shows that he is finally reaching out to you and opening up a bit about his personal pain. I understand that the knee jerk reaction is to look at it as him blaming everyone else for his problems and issues, but if you can try to look past it and understand it from the POV point of view or perspective of a child in pain, one who is crushed under the huge burden, you might gain some insight on your child’s emotional equilibrium.

Take an honest look at his list of complaints. No one likes to accept blame and as parents, you did the best you could making the best decisions you could make with the knowledge you had at the time and the advice you were given at the time. Every parent looking back might choose to have done any number of things differently. What about with his complaint at this time. Could you have done anything differently? What could you have done differently to bring about a different outcome? What about the R”Y, Mashgiach, friends etc. ? Could they have done things differently? Should they have done things differently? Do they have any accountability here?

I am asking these questions for the simple reason of understanding and validation. It is very important as parents to “listen to understand” and then to be able to validate his feelings and emotions. Feelings are neither right or wrong. They are there and a person has a right to their own feelings. In order for a child to be able to deal with their feelings it is very important for them to feel validated. If you can tell your child that you heard every word he said, obviously in a calm and loving manner, and reiterate that at the time you thought it was the best way to handle the situation you are showing that you understood that he is hurt. Obviously had you known he was still hurt, or that what you did was not enough you would have tried to do more, or knowing what is known today if you had this knowledge then you would have handled it differently. By saying this you are also validating his feelings. As far as the other players ar concerned, would you be comfortable asking him what he feels they should have done differently, or if it were to happen to one of his siblings or his own children c”v, what does he feel he would do to handle the situation in a more productive and successful manner.

If you listen to understand and offer a sincere apology you might just be able to keep the line of communications open. When someone is angry, especially a child it is important to help them channel their anger in the right direction. If the line of communication is open and he is willing to talk about his pain he might even start talking about his anger. In many cases kids don’t even realize they are angry or why. They don’t recognize the anger in them. They are frustrated and they know that, but they don’t see that they are also angry. One thing that is very important to keep in mind is that his friends are validating his feelings. If he says these things to his friends they will agree with him and enforce these feelings rarely giving an insight to the other perspective such as what his parents were able or capable of doing at the time, or if your parents gave you the opportunity to switch yeshivas why didnt you? Maybe he does need to be gently reminded that you did advocate for him as much as he would let you at the time. He might just come around to realize that he pulled you into the mix but you really don’t belong there. It is a process.

You are absolutely right when you say you can’t control him. He does not want to be controlled. But by showing him validation and understanding you might be able to make agreements with him based on mutual respect. Obviously you can’t respect his choices but you can respect his “need” to make choices. Obviously you don’t love or approve of what he is doing but you love your son no matter what. And I am sure that no matter what he loves you too. So try to make an agreement with him by putting it in those terms. “even though I might not understand everything that is going on with you I do understand that what you are doing is not out of a need to hurt me or our family. So can we make an agreement that you confine what you need to do in your room, and keep the music low enough for only you and not your siblings to hear? And although you feel you are old enough to be out with your friends till all hours, I can’t stop worrying about my son whom I love so much, so can we agree that we show each other mutual respect and consideration? can we agree on a reasonable curfew and you call me or text me if you will be late so I know where you are and when you will be home. “

It is worth making every effort to reach him. He is going through his own nisyonos while you are going through yours. He will come back when he finds the peace within he is looking for and he finds the right sheliach to show him the path home. As long as he knows your arms are always open, he will eventually find his way home. Hatzlacha Rabbah .

Eizena Kup, why did you choose that screen name? It speaks volumes.

I don’t think you are a chossan, I didn’t say or presume you are a chassan, that is your presumption and your own conclusion. You are the one that is quick to jump to conclusions. You are the one who presumes to know what I am thinking and is reading into my meanings. I simply said this is highly recommended book for Chassanim. There is a very good reason why Rabbonim recommend this book and that is to teach them the difference between men and women and the nature of both. I advised you to read it for the same reason.

I am NOT overzealous in defending womankind for any foe. That is your interpretation and what you choose to read into my posts. Yes men and women are different and they see things from a different sense of understanding, from a different perspective and from a different reference point. I was not bashing anyone I was explaining, on the other hand I was the one to get bashed for giving very sound advice which WIY did not agree with, not based on education or knowledge but based on what he felt was enough experience with his own friend.

I have a very high regard for upstanding men who are respectful of all others, many of which are regular posters here. However, I have lost respect for those who are disrespectful and continue to be without apology. I do my best not to belittle anyone and as a matter of fact and practice I stick up for those that others pick on. I have come to understandings with many that were generally on opposite sides of the fence and have learned to agree to disagree and learned that we don’t have to always be on the same page or even ever be on the same page but we still have to be respectful to one and other. So I don’t understand what you are talking about when you say that I am bashing anyone. As far as my “sagacious” advice is concerned. Maybe I will just keep it to myself for a while and just share it with those clients that seek me out. As was noted on another thread “free advice is worth what you pay for it”.

Actually WIY, I have. And actually WIY the ideal thing to do is to help them minimize their anxiety and point out that in many cases that what they are feeling is normal, and that others can and do feel the same. What you are doing is blowing it out of proportion and assuming that she can’t handle it when it fact with the proper support it is very possible she can. So please don’t lecture me or give advice that is inappropriate or that you have no backup or professional experience to give.

It is totally appropriate to help anyone with anxiety to relate to what it is they are anxious about and to try to break that down into manageable pieces. That is NOT missing the boat. Maybe you are making more of this than the OP is and you are imposing your friends issues onto this one. The OP came here for advice and I and others are offering different options for her to assess and choose from. These are choices that she can choose to make or not. It is NOT up to YOU to decide for her if they are worth her while to try or whether or not this is something she can accomplish on her own. She has already accomplished quite a bit by having friends to begin with. Your perspective on the subject is quite different than the other posters so it is you that has to take a step back and re-evaluate where you are coming from and why you are having such a strong reaction here.

The key is to have the right support to get one through any difficult situation. With social anxiety having one or two friends to surround yourself with creates a safe haven to allow one to function in a group whether one chooses to go further outside that group or just remain within that parameter. Knowing that you have those friends by your side allows you the comfort to know you have who to talk to, who to rely on to keep a conversation going if approached by others, etc. That allows you to step out into the world and not be a hermit in your own home. So telling your friends that you are a bit anxious about the event and working on a buddy system is a safe way to go. We adults do it all the time “can you pick me up on your way to shul?” or “stop by my house on the way to the kiddush and we can go together”. We all have a sense of anxiety or even shyness at times and we use this technique to help ourselves out of awkward social situations.

I don’t know why you are jumping out of your skin and making a huge bid deal out of this WIY. These are normal and effective techniques that anyone can learn and apply. The OP will learn these tips and can choose to try them out now if she wants to or if she feels comfortable doing it. These are only suggestions to help her out and she will know if she can apply them to her situation or not. Only she can judge if they are shayach NOT you and not I. I can only offer them.

One more thing that I am going to say. When you or anyone takes an attitude such as you did with me it only serves to push people away from the CR. I have to say that I am sick and tired of it. No matter how you feel and no matter how important it is what you wish to relate, it is important to say it in a kovadik manner. Whether you like the poster or what they say is irrelevant to the derech eretz and kovod we each have to show to one and other here. There are way too many wonderful posters who have already left and believe me I have already taken too many punches and am quite fed up already. I too have learned to take it easy here and not react too quickly and I too have learned to filter and not get involved in threads that I have no or little experience in. I try to keep my emotions out of it and keep relating to the poster in the way they need to be related to in order to bring about an agreeable outcome even if we choose to agree to disagree in the end.

We here are mixed company and mixed generations. We each have different life experience and different levels of knowledge and education. We all have something to contribute in various capacities. No one should be treated disrespectfully and no one should be made like they don’t belong here. If you don’t like what someone posted you have the option to disagree, but you don’t have the right to be rude. You NEVER have the right to be rude, and it is rudeness that has chased away so many wonderful people who have given of themselves in so many ways.

If you noticed I was not one of the first posters here and there was a reason for it. I have been holding back lately. I really didn’t want to post on this thread and waited for others to post first. I did eventually want to give this girl some chizuk and then you came along with your sucker punch. So I say this to you. I disagree with you. I do have more experience than you, and I stand by my suggestions to her. She can apply them or not it is her choice not yours. As far as posting or offering further assistance here on the CR, it is young people like yourself who think they always know better that chase people like myself away out of sheer frustration and yes, even pain, who came here with their own knowledge and experience to help others here asking and searching for answers.

AMEN, ken yehi ratzon.

toomuch00, I agree with OOMIS.

First of all, the fact that you have friends is a big deal. For someone with social anxiety that is a huge step in the right direction so let your friends be a support system for you. Yes tell them what you are feeling and don’t be at all surprised if they are also feeling anxious about the Shabbaton.

Do you know what exactly you are feeling anxious about? Are you going to be spending Shabbos out of the area? In a hotel? In other people’s homes? Is it only about getting together for meals?

There are a lot of variables about such a event and there are a lot of reasons for feeling anxious. I am going to let you in on a little secret. When adults get invited for weekends simchas, we also feel anxious. Where are they going to put us up? What are our accommodations going to be like? Will we have a private bathroom? How far will we have to walk? Who else will be there? Who will they sit us with? What will everyone else be wearing? What should I bring? What if it rains? What if it is too hot? What if there is no air conditioning? What if the sky falls in……..

Doesn’t it sound silly? But we stress ourselves out about it also. So please tell your friends what you are going through and support each other through this. Make a plan such as you will pick each other up on the way Friday night so you know you will be together and the same Shabbos morning. Sit together in Shul, sit together at the meals or the lectures so you know you have someone to talk to and you won’t feel awkward. They will have your back and you will have theirs.

Hatzlocha, and don’t forget to breathe 🙂

Once upon a time……sorry 🙂 I couldn’t swallow pills, I tried all the tricks and then learned to put them on the back of my tongue. Necessity is the mother of invention. At this point in my life, i take pills like someone else would take candy and I don’t have the patience to take one at a time. I just throw the whole handful down at the same time with one glass of water. My hubby doesn’t understand how I can do that. Now I laugh when I remember how I couldn’t even swallow one, how I had to crush it and melt it in water, stick it in whipped cream or pudding, etc.

Goq, try “So sorry, you just missed him, but I can put you through to is “Private” voice mail”.”

OneOfMany, you would be surprised to know how much kids learn when they are NOT forced to. Once you are on your own you can read, speak to other people, choose your own topics and subjects, join groups, lectures, shiurim, classes etc., that you are interested in and garner as much information as your brain can take in at any given time. And this information gets stored away for later use as well.

So just to reiterate. Different strokes for different folks, so fitting in one period a day or a week, for teaching practical or fun life skills, which help kids who are NOT so academically inclined to shine, or just gives those who are a rest period for their brain is a good thing and nothing to put down or make fun of. It is only a small part of what I am sure is a very thorough program.

OneOfMany, actually people put more importance on pushing girls to have careers, use up every single minute of their spare time, keeping them busy all the time, and turn young girls into future super women. So I disagree. Any one of our wonderful bnos yisroel probably has too much information packed into their brains, and most of it they will never use again after High School.

In all honesty in all my years post High School, and I am a bubby of quite a few at the moment, I never had to know any of the “mi amar l’mi” post High School ever again. Nor did I have a need to know any dates, that we were tested on through the 4 years. There were thousands of bits and pieces of information that I never had to use again. On the other hand, I totally regret the fact that Historia was given to us in hebrew in our freshman year, 9th grade, when we were too overwhelmed and novices at taking notes, to fully comprehend and appreciate what we were being taught. That was quite a shame because had we been taught Jewish History in our Junior or Senior year, we would have had a much better appreciation and would have retained so much more about our very important heritage.

On the other hand we did take elective courses which were mandatory such as typing, art, first aid, sewing, home economics, etc. All of which were necessary life skills. It is amazing to me that first aid is no longer taught in school. It is amazing to me that young mothers and wives have no clue what to do in case of emergency and even just for basic cuts, scrapes, sprains and burns. You can laugh at the cooking and baking classes, but remember this, when you are married it is much cheaper to cook and bake on your own than to buy ready made from the store. As I mentioned earlier, knowing how to sew is a major money saver, just in hems alone. Typing, will get you through college papers and through jobs especially internet work much quicker and easier. If you were lucky enough to take bookkeeping in school then you will know how to make a budget for your family and help handle the finances aside from being able to get a job even while being in school.

So again, while you make look at these extra classes as silly or not stimulating, they do come in handy and they do serve their purpose, whether it is to give the kids a break from the stress, or for filing away these “silly” skills for later in life.

OneOfMany, I don’t know what school you went to or what you are talking about. I am talking about what the OP posted. No where in the post does it say that they don’t care about the other classes which are academic subjects.

I imagine one could check with the OU in E”Y.

Mike22 is very upset and he sees the situation only from his own perspective. On the other hand someone else had commented how so many people try to sneak through brand new strollers and other items without paying mas on them and therefore customs are cracking down. Maybe he shouldn’t blame the custom agents as much as those fine yidden who try to cheat the rules.

Yes I do believe it will be a chilul Hashem because the story will bring out the fact that so many frum people do try to cheat the government by bringing in brand new taxable items saying that it is used and that is why the custom agents are cracking down. I believe that Mike22 should provide all the proof that he has to show that he bought this used, that it is NOT a new product and get it back. He knew that he would have to provide proof, he knew what the rules were and he should not be that surprised that this happened, even though he could tell that the carriage was NOT new. People have dirtied up brand new items to fool customs before.

If you face these type of strict rules you should get a receipt for purchase. Try and get the original paperwork for the item, like the instruction book which would have the model year of the item, etc. If you are pushing a 2009 stroller in 2011, and you have the booklet to prove it, and the receipt then you have an argument to make with the customs agent.

Different kids need different things, and these things give kids a break from the tension and anxiety a lot of schools produce. Nothing in this notice said that these were the only classes given in this course. This was just one week of what was taught, and in sounded like fun for the girls. There is nothing wrong with it, since the girls will be expected to know this and probably teach this to their own girls as well. It is silly and foolish to make fun of this. Hopefully they also use this course to teach about nutrition, first aid, personal care and health, maybe sewing or other hobbies girls can use that will be useful for them, something they can do in the future that they can work around their families. Maybe they will offer some graphics arts classes, maybe some home decor classes, etc. Maybe even hair and makeup courses. All useful tools for girls who are not that academic and yet can help them start their own businesses from home to help support a husband and family if they have too in the futute.

bpt, the point that you are missing is that kids that go OTD have no intention at the time of ever returning. They don’t see past their pain in the present. They are NOT thinking about tomorrow let alone a week, a month, a year or even 5 years down the line. The pain they carry is real and it effects them greatly. So much so that they are incapable at the time to make appropriate choices for themselves. They are running away not only from religion but from themselves who they know themselves to be. They don’t want to recognize who they were or what they knew.

They are running into the arms of goyim and want to be just like them. They want to feel everything and anything that is opposite to what they knew up until then. They don’t think or can’t possibly fathom that they will heal from what they are feeling and that they will ever be able to forgive or forget. They can’t imagine ever NOT feeling that pain and want to do whatever they can to ease it, numb it, or ignore it. They want to kick that pain, that memory, or that thought in the gut, and they will do anything to feel like they did.

cinderella, for all those girls who do NOT help at home and find themselves newlyweds with none of these skills, these classes would have been a great fallback instead of running to neighbors or panicking.

Bowwow, under your new scenario where someone did NOT plan on cheating the caterer out of his profit, I am sure the caterer would NOT have a problem letting such a person join his minyan. For instance if someone was traveling to another town and stopped at the hotel on their way because they heard there was a program there and they can chap a minyan, I doubt the caterer or program director would deny them.

As always Hashem makes the shidduchim. Boxing yourself into what you think you deserve is being a baal gaivah. Understanding what you need is a whole different ball game.