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W.O.W., if you never expected him to be responsible before then you can’t start with teaching him responsibility towards the entire family and household before you teach him responsibility for his own daled amos first. So it brings us back to the same original theory. He is now sixteen years old, the oldest child in the family and it is time that he learned to be responsible for himself. So start with his own room, his own clothes, etc. Have him help in regard to taking care of himself first. Then you should try and ask him to clean up after himself in the kitchen. You can only expect of him what he is capable of doing. Expecting more is a futile effort. So choose something you know he can do and then show appreciation and encouragement. Don’t be snide like “you see you could do it if you only try”. Try to be more encouraging like “I appreciate your cooperation”.
In coaching we prefer to drop the word “proud” because pride is a need that we need fulfilled and it is not necessarily a feeling that reflects the needs of the subject of the actions. So we try to use more positive words such as “respect, appreciate and admire”. Those words are received much more warmly and openly. Kids want to be respected, appreciated and admired. When they are in this matzav they don’t necessarily care if you are proud of them.
WIY, I am sorry to hear that. If you understood the situation more and the fact that children who are molested can turn into molesters because thy either don’t understand what happened to them or cant come to grips with it maybe you would. Or maybe if you could understand that by catching him at his first offense there is still hope to stop him and cure him for the future. Or maybe if you realize that by trying to help him and finding out if in fact he was molested and who his molester was the authorities can then, with his help, put two molesters out of business!
Please also explain to me why a kid of fifteen who molests is considered a responsible adult , but a kid of fifteen who claims he was molested is considered a liar? This is what I want all those who spout support for the abusers in general claiming one should not go to the authorities because it could be a false accusation and you can ruin his life! Now that it is a young teen who might have been victimized himself, you don’t care if you ruin HIS life? HE is a monster, but if he claims or others his age claim they were victimized then you sing a different tune. Give me a break!
Yehuda Tzvi, we all feel your pain and understand it. The point you make about other adult “monsters” is not and applicable comparison because in this case a child abuser has been caught at the start of his career and can still be rehabilitated. He cannot be considered a monster until which time it is determined that his act was premeditated and planned, and that his intention was to satisfy his own need while knowing that he was intentionally harming his victim. That would be a monster at any age. Since you do not know the story behind the child molester’s actions you might feel that he is a monster, and I will agree with you that his actions to this young child were monstrous and devastating but I can’t agree to label him a monster until such time that it is determined that his intention was evil and that he is not a victim himself acting out on what was done to him.
I commend the parents of the girl for calling the authorities, I commend he authorities for taking proper action and the court for doing the same. I also commend th boy”s parents for being parents and doing whatever they can for heir son and I encourage them to help him reveal the truth and get the help he needs. I encourage the parents and the son to recognize the severity of his actions and to show sincere remorse and do whatever is necessary for the victim and the parents to heal from this utter violation of them.
I commend you, Yehuda Tzvi for your generosity of heart and soul, getting involved as you did and recognizing that the professionals need to handle the situation. We really need to understand that with such a seriously delicate situation we can make it worse for a victim when we don’t have the proper knowledge and experience, and our mistakes can cause the victim more pain and trauma. What you can do for yourself as well as your friends is to offer them whatever support they need from you during this difficult period. Also since you know the Rav is speak to your Rav about him going to the boy’s parents, him not you, to encourage them to get whatever therapy their son needs and to make sure he has a shomer 24/7 until he is cured from this disease.
Threatening the parents is not going to help the situation. Offering support to the boys parents whether in getting him therapy, or providing the shomrim will lessen their burden and sense of horror as well as being overwhelmed by the entire situation. This is something only the Rabbonim in the neighborhood can do, and most likely they would only trust the Rabbonim with this issue. But that might be one thing Debbie Fox will do so you won’t have to. I am only making the suggestion because it seems that you need to do something.
On an aside you asked who I was referring to in reference the October 30case. That would be the case of edited, who is charged with horrendous crimes of molestation against a high school girl over a period of three years. The student was threatened with expulsion if she didn’t see this untrained, unlicensed counselor. The school did not even check to see if he took precautions against having yichud with the young girls. After three years of forcing the parents to pay this menuval, and the child being abused by him, the school expelled her anyway and while speaking to the guidance counselor in her new school, she revealed what had happened with her prior counselor. As a mandatory reporter the guidance counselor immediately called the authorities. After two years of schlepping this out, the trial is scheduled to begin October 30. Now Yehuda Tzvi what would you label this grandfatherly molester.
Sorry about the edit. I have no problem posting names and places, but I can’t without personally verifying and I don’t have time to do that.
W.o.w. part of chinuch is discipline and boundaries. Chinuch does not only mean teaching Torah and mitzvos. It encompasses everything we teach our children in order to raise them in the path of Torah. It also encompasses the means we use in order to accomplish that goal and hopefully that is also according to Torah guidelines and values. But it does include discipline and boundaries which does not suggest being cruel, it just means being smart.
Kids in your sons matzah are shirking all forms of discipline and boundaries. They don’t want to be told what to do and want to make their own choices. Unfortunately at this young age, they are not yet capable of making wise ones, although they think they are. The trick is to guide them in a way that they can choose for themselves correctly. If you “tell” them they “have” to they will do the opposite and pull away. The more you tug on the rope the more they will pull the other direction. You need you give just the right amount of slack to the rope so there is no tug of war. He needs the safety rope and yet he needs the slack to explore his options.
Can you picture it? If you pull back too tightly and he tugs harder he is taking you along for the ride and you don’t like it. If you give him some slack he is still connected to you, he knows you are at the end of his safety line and you are there for him, he can come back to you when he wants to or needs to. You are the constant, the strength and the support while he goes out to test the waters. You are holding the line so he doesn’t drown.
Does that help you? Can you visualize that? Maybe if your husband can visualize that it will help him.
If you really want to apply the Torah and carry out justice, show up in court October 30 in support of the victim of an adult molester, repeat offender, who is responsible for his actions!
Yehuda Tzvi, the teen is NOT a monster, what he did was monstrous. If in fact he is a victim himself and that is what motivated him to act out then he is a child in pain acting out of pain and also a child in need of help. If this was his first offense then he is a child who can still be helped and stopped early on from becoming a career molester and abuser.
If all you want to do is label him a monster then all you will accomplish is to allow him to be that monster with no hope in stopping him from “wanting” to harm anyone in the future. The point is can this teen be helped and will he agree to be helped. If he will agree and he can be helped then he is NOT a monster and you can’t fault a child who is himself a victim. You can fault the person who victimized him and lock him up, label him the monster and publicize his name!!!!!
If the teen refuses treatment or refuses to cooperate then you should do everything in your power to warn others. But please do not ignore the fact that you do have people who have been in the business of protecting children from molesters for a very long time and have taught not only the community you live in but have taught and trained others how to keep their own communities safe. Use the resources you have at your own fingertips and don’t be a vigilante branding your own form of justice.
Call Debbie Fox and have your friends call Debbie Fox at Aleinu and speak to them to find out what to do. If you don’t call them then you are no better than those you accuse. You do not have the experience nor the knowledge how to handle the situation, how to judge what happened or what to do about it and they do. They will know how to keep the neighborhood safe, how to organize the community, shuls, schools, etc. and they will come in and speak to everyone.
Someone emailed me this thread and asked me to get involved here. There is an organization in LA called Alleinu http://www.aleinu.net, the founder or one of the founders is Mrs. Debbie Fox and she is instrumental in teaching schools and parents how to keep their children safe. Please contact her ASAP for help in regard to this situation.
I agree that if a 15 year old boy is molesting other children something must have happened to him as well and he needs psychological counseling. It would be important to take him out of the main stream yeshiva or at least hire a shadow for him so that he is never alone with anyone. He needs intensive therapy to understand what he is doing and why he is doing it and probably medication to lessen his urges as he goes through therapy. I wouldn’t condemn him off the bat not knowing the particulars but I would say that he cannot be trusted to be on his own and needs 24/7 round the clock supervision.
It is much better for others to think that he has a medical issue and needs a companion because of it, than for people to know that he did this if doctors believe they can work with him and help him if indeed he is a victim himself. The first and most important thing to do is to keep him from harming others and of course himself in the process. So the first and most important thing to do is neutralize the situation by making sure, absolutely sure, that he cannot have access or harm anyone. He should not be allowed total freedom nor total liberties to walk where he chooses, go where he wants, nor do what he wants. He gave up that right by acting on his urges and hurting others. There are always consequences for his actions and the consequences here should be intensive therapy and a shomer.
Is it necessary to publicize who this child is at this point? I cannot give an answer on that especially without an evaluation from a qualified psychiatrist. So I would again advise that you the poster or rather the parents of the abused children contact Debbie Fox and her team to inform them of the situation and let them advise you or even handle it from their end by contacting the parents of the 15 year old boy.
In the event that the parents and the 15 year old abuser do not want to cooperate in getting help, then I would say that you absolutely need to circulate his information and that of his parents so that the entire community knows to be wary of them. But first give the teen a chance to get help because he may very well be as much of a victim as are his own victims, and his parents might not have even known about it.
W.O.W. you are doing a dance right now. You think you know what he is going to say or how he is going to react and he is probably feeling the same way. When he tells you something you react the way he suspected you would and not the way he needs you to right now and so you are both wary of each other. So when you ask him something he is on guard probably with the attitude of “when I tell you something you get mad why do you ask or want to know”.
Maybe it would be best to “write” him a note apologizing for your reaction. “I am sorry I reacted with such harsh words when you told me about the girls. Although it is not what we do, and it is not recommended to mingle at such a young age for obvious reasons, it is normal and quite understandable. I am very glad that you told me. You can talk to me about anything. I am new at this chapter and I might make mistakes but I love you and I am here for you so give me the chance to adjust to it.”
Speaker that is because the adults in the school do nothing to stop it, that is hypocrisy.
Speaker, I disagree the common issue is hypocrisy. That usually leads to trauma.
W.O.W. regarding the girls, what can you say? It was expected and it is normal. It is more normal for sixteen year old boys to be hanging out with girls than for them to be taking drugs. I mentioned before that you need to be prepared and be one step ahead. These things should not shock you. Your reaction should have been “I’m glad you told me” which of course opens the line of communications. He should be able to talk to you about all the changes that is happening to him.
W.O.W., you just can’t judge or try to figure out what will get through to him or what won’t. You just have to try and since you are speaking at him instead of with him it is best to write him a note. A note he can read when he chooses and as often as he likes. Things might slip out in speech or heard incorrectly. A note can be read incorrectly true, but then it can be read again when one is in a different frame of mind. It can be read quickly or slowly. It can be read when one needs more support or less. Keep the notes and letter coming. Keep sending notes filled with love and support, but still write what your own perspective as well. As long as it is not about religion it is fine. Always speak about your love and how special he is to you. Always tell him that you love him no matter what, because he is part of your heart and soul, he is part and parcel of you and that can’t change no matter what choices he makes, and no matter what clothes he wears.
W.O.W., the point is that he should be considerate enough to let you know and hopefully he will feel badly if he lies. You really don’t know if he is telling you the truth or not, and what can you do about it. The best that you can hope for is to try and instill in him a need to still be considerate. So yes the best you can do, whether you predict that he will or wont, is to continue to ask him to be considerate.
So when he leaves ask him to “please call me later to touch base”. If he says “I don’t know where I will be”, say “it doesn’t matter call me from wherever”, if he says I don’t know when I will be home or if I’ll be home say “call me later before I go to sleep so I won’t worry, its the least you can do”. If the Chevra wants to stay in this yeshiva they probably wont be able to stay out all night and still go there. However, they can stay at each others homes and still go there.
W.O.W it is not your job to think like him, it is your job to think like a caring adult. It is very important to show that you care. Accepting his abuse of you is not a show of caring, it is a show of not caring. Respecting his right to make choices is caring, accepting abuse in the process is not caring it is ignoring.
What do you think he tells his friends ” my parents don’t care what I do”, which is so far removed from the truth. Of course you care but you are allowing him the space that he needs. One young man as he matured at 23 and looked at his old photos told his mom “I can’t believe you LET me wear a long pony tail at that age, I look ridiculous!”. Let???did the mom let? Did she have a say at the time? He made his wn choices as your son is doing but one needs to hold kids accountable for thir choices and their behavior. They are making this homie for themselves but it is not fair for the family to suffer the consequence any more than you making the choices and him suffering the consequences. So no it was not right that he didn’t say “mom, I’m safe Im across the street at a friend you don’t need to worry.”. By the same token you can tell him “thank you, I appreciate the information and knowing that you are safe. You dont have to worry I won’t do anything to embarrass you even though I know where you are. As long as I know you are safe I can relax and not worry. We can now both get on with our on business. I love you . “.
That is holding him accountable while also allowing him space. As I said just because he is hurting that does not give him th right to hurt everyone else. He does have the rich to ask for support and understanding.
W.O.W I have not read the manual of twisted parenting so I don’t really know what was happening in your home. I also don’t know the protocol and procedure about calling the police. What happens there when you call the police? He is not really a missing child nor is he a runaway. So would the police help you?
I have avoided calling the police on kids in my neighborhood and called Hatzolah instead who helped to intervene especially when a child was drunk or high.
I dont believe in accepting unacceptable behavior, nor do I believe in not holding people accountable for their actions. I also don’t believe that he hates you, but I do believe that he is manipulating you. Going OTD is one thing being completely inconsiderate is another and they don’t necessarily have to go hand in hand. If you are going to follw TP you are going to have to believe in it 100% percent. I imagine that it must be much harder to do that when you are not part of the group, not able to hear the stories of the other parents and how they are coping, and not being able to speak with Avi face to face.
I would suggest that you calm down first and keep telling yourself that he is alive whether he is home or not. You are more angry with his chutzpah than you are concerned about him right now. So please take a couple of deep breaths and calm down.
I am a big believer in writing as I mentioned before. Since you can’t have a conversation with him, it might be beneficial to write him a letter. Let him know that you love him with all your heart and soul, and let him know that under all his anger you do believe he loves you too even though he is not showing it right now. Also let him know that you understand his pain and frustration and that he is at a crossroad in his life where he is confused. He is running away from what he feels caused him pain into the unknown because he is trying new things that are exciting to him but were foreign to him before.
Although he is confused, hurting, and exploring, he does not have any more of a right to hurt you or the rest of the family than those who hurt him. You are a family who love and care about him and when his friends move on and he finds new ones as the years go by, his family will not change, they will still be his family. The consant in his life, the ones he can always count on. And he is still a member of the family and always will be. Neither his pain, frustration nor confusion gives him the right to be inconsiderate, rude or offensive.
Staying out all night might seem cool to him, and if his intentions were to keep everyone else up worrying where he was, thinking that an Arab slashed his throat somewhere in an alley, then he accomplished his goal. If his intentions are to destroy his family while he finds what he is looking for then he should make that clear from the start so you can all have a family meeting and he can hear what everyone has to say about it. If his intentions are only to heal his wounds then he needs to find the time to speak to you and figure out a way that will give him the opportunity to do that without being inconsiderate, hurtful and destructive to the entire family while also explaining what kind of support he needs.
Whatever choices he chooses to make, he will have to live with the consequences that follow good or bad. Since he is making these choices on his own he will have no one to blame later on for bad choices or big mistakes so he needs to appreciate the power of choice and make hs choices wisely.
I would encourage any of the children who miss him and want to see him or speak to him to write to him as well.
Hatzlocha
WD, it saddens me that you would find a need to make negative comments on this thread. This thread, from the get go has basically been a conversation between one poster who asked for help, and those who have offered assistance. Why you felt the need to comment on the general issue just to throw your hat in the ring when this entire thread has nothing to do with the debate on the issue is questionable. Was it your intent to pour salt on an already open wound?
Did you not bother to read any part of this thread, the history between the parents and child? What exactly is the point of your very sound advice here aside from letting us all know you are sick of this topic? You did have the choice of skipping it if you are tired of the subject, you did not have to get involved at all.
Daniela, you should keep googling and I should not have to tell you or explain to you. If you do your research properly you find the correct information. It is neither an institution nor a lockdown facility it is what the name suggests, a home for kids who could not live, function or otherwise do well for various reasons in their own home. Whether it was because their parents could not deal with them at home, they could not deal with their parents, or they could not function in the environment any longer. They had to be a certain age, I believe at least 16 or 17. It was an environment of warmth, acceptance and love filled with volunteers from the neighborhood giving of themselves to mentor and aid the kids in various roles and functions. Whether as big brothers, co-parents, or just friends. No one judged them, they just offered support, love and care in order to build self esteem, self confidence, self respect and self pride in an environment surrounded by caring frum individuals.
The boys always had with whom to speak and interact whether it was about sports, feeling and emotions, religion, arts, music or whatever. They were encouraged to find jobs to support themselves and feel good about themselves. There was limited amount of space and those that were accepted had to go through a process in order to get accepted. They had to “want” to be there and accept the rules to be a part of that community. No one was there against their will and no one got a free ride. Everyone there agreed to be a part of the Home Sweet Home “family”. There were waiting lists of boys who wanted to get in, so anytime someone wanted to leave there was always someone ready and more than willing waiting to get in.
It was a miracle that boys had this environment to turn to. I hope I answered your questions.
WOW, everything depends on how you do it. If you do it in a way that is condescending then yes he might feel that way, if you do it in a way that makes him feel like an adult then he won’t. For instance. You said he is set on going away to this school. So the right thing to do is teach him how to manage on his on while he is there.
“if you are sure you want to go away to this school you will have to learn some survival skills and how to take care of yourself because they do not provide maid service. So when you gather your laundry I will meet you in the laundry room and show you how to do it yourself.”
Daniela you are way off base. So off base that I am not even going to respond. What Avi does and what Home Sweet Home is besides being a labor of love is a mitzva above and beyond anyone can imagine. To try and put a different “twist” on it is beyond reprehensible.
W.O.W. I don’t see how teling your son to put his laundry in the laundry room is not “loving” him, or telling him that you would be happy to change his linen if he is up, if not you will leave the fresh linen on his bed and he can do it when he is ready.
Why is that “NOT” loving him? Why is being a maid to him showing “love” is he 4 years old, incapable of taking care of himself? He is choosing to be independent and you are offering to take care of him. You should continue to tell him that you love him and you should continue to offer to do things for him, however, you do not need to “baby” him. He wants to be respected and treated as an adult, so why not? Does an adult need to be picked up after? Does an adult need to be spoon fed? He wants to choose his own clothes, he wants to stay out all night, right? OK, so then bring it up a couple of notches. Make him feel like an adult. He is going to go off to school on his own isn’t he? Do you think they are going to do his laundry for him? You are not doing him any favors. Teach him now how to do it for himself.
WOW I would meet him halfway, in other words. “I am doing laundry tomorrow, if you want me to do your laundry make sure you put what you want washed in the laundry room.”. “I am changing linen tomorrow, if you want me to change your linen you will have to be out of your bed by…, if not I will leave fresh linen on your bed and you can do it yourself”
WOW I would meet him halfway, in other words. “I am doing laundry tomorrow, if you want me to do your laundry make sure you put what you want washed in the laundry room.”. “I am changing linen tomorrow, if you want me to change your linen you will have to be out of your bed by…, if not I will leave fresh linen on your bed and you can do it yourself”
WOW, why are you washing his clothes at all at this point? He is mr independent with no form of consideration or courtesy for you. What makes you think you have to be his maid? Every child is entitled to his G-d given rights, privileges is another story. He is home all day anyway. He has enough time to play games and be rude. He chooses to wear what he wants, eat what he wants, go where he wants, etc. he claims he can take care of himself doesn’t he?
W.O.W. at best I would recommend that you go down to the yeshiva and not only speak to the tosh yeshiva and administration about your dilemma, I would also knock on some doors in the vicinity of the yeshiva and hear what the neighbors have to say about the yeshiva and the kids that go there. If it is basically a babysitting service where the kids do what they want so the administration can collect the bucks and have parnasah from it, I would say, save your money and keep him home. On the other hand if the neighbors support the yeshiva and vouch for the sincerity of the hanhala, then you might have something to think about.
W.O.W., I feel your hot tears, believe me I do. Your son is pushing your buttons. He may be saying these things because he means it, or he may be saying these things because he is feeling you out about them. The piercing is bad but the tattoo is even worse.
On these things you can say “I know that you feel the choice is up to you, and I know that you feel that you can do whatever you want and you probably don’t really care how much we get hurt right now in the process, but I am doing my best to hold it together. If you choose to go that route I can’t promise you that I will not only have a broken heart you will break it into a million pieces and I don’t know if I would ever be able to recover. Don’t forget what a tattoo symbolizes in this generation to Jews!!! The Nazis tattooed numbers on to the arms of the Jews to keep track of them as if they were animals. Whenever WE see tattoos that is what WE are reminded of. It has no beauty or sense of meaning to us other than how the most evil of evil people humiliated, degraded, experimented on, tortured and annihilated our families, $6,000,0000 jews plus any other people that they felt didn’t live up to perfection which included gays, handicapped, gypsies, and others.”
W.O.W. don’t make it about the Torah and what it says about our bodies being on loan and not damaging it. Give him something he can relate to and think about. As far as sending him off to school. I highly doubt at this point it has anything to do with learning and he certainly doesn’t care to be in Yeshiva. The idea is to get away with this group of boys, so there really is no point. What is the point in having the school call you constantly that he did this, that and the other thing. Better that the boys should go without him.
Has he been asking you about it, or is it something he spoke to you about earlier?
BF, W.O.W.’s son displays typical behavior of a child who is hurt, has lost his bitachon and emunah, and is really hurting. He shows some various symptoms of depression and substance abuse but other than that he does not really display signs of bipolar disease.
Bipolar patients can go days without sleep. They display completely extreme degrees of wants, needs, actions and reactions. At one end of the spectrum they have a need to conquer the world and fix everything for everyone. Not unlike the energizer bunny, they keep on going, and going and going. On the other end of the spectrum when they hit their low point, they are so low basically on the floor and cannot get their chin up. Not even to go out with their friends to do whatever it is they are doing. This does not fit the information given by W.O.W. about her son.
W.O.W. B”H, I am so happy to hear that.
Daniela, now is not the time for company, not even grandparents. There is no way to know how he will react to them and there is no reason to expose them to his hurtful comments and behaviors. W.O.W. and her husband are under enough pressure and stress without the added stress of having their parents around. As you said you have not been through the parsha and although you are truly trying to help and your heart is aching to be able to offer something to heal this broken heart, Just being here and letting W.O.W how much you care is really nechama in itself.
HTH, I just sent another email to Avi using another one of his email addresses. I forwarded the original to him. I will let you know when he answers.
In the mean time, W.O.W. your son is displaying typical depressive behavior, sleeping all day and functioning at night. His unacceptable comments are probably prompted by substances that he either ingested or inhaled. Either which has effected his brain and common sense. He cannot think straight and differentiate between right and wrong and is speaking “stupid speech” some of which obviously he will be sorry for later. He is neither logical or believable at this time he is just speaking junk. Do you really think that he would chas v’shalom want you to die? Could you imagine how much pain he would be in if the only people he can truly count on in this world were gone????? Do you think he himself would want to live another day if he didn’t have you there to catch him if he fell?
When your son returns from an all nighter what you see is really not your son, it is the shell of your son with the Yetzer hora controlling him and speaking for him. If he could speak for himself he would say “stay away from me so you won’t get hurt from me” but he can’t because he is NOT in control of himself or of his own actions. I know it looks like him, I know the words he speaks really hurt badly, but it is NOT him who is saying these things, it is the yetzer horah in him that wants you to turn your back on him. Try to picture it in your head almost like a “dibuk” took over your child. While you are fighting for your child’s neshoma there is a dibuk within taking control of him, making him do these horrible things and say these terribly hurtful things. Turn your back on this dibuk and walk away. Cry where he can’t see it. Take out your tehillim and get comfort from whichever source consoles you, but don’t by any means give in to this dibuk and yetzer horah.
Of course you don’t reward unacceptable behavior and you don’t have to accept it,but you don’t have to get into a battle of words or anything else with someone who is in no state to comprehend anything you say or how you feel. Doing so would be as useless as having a conversation with a wall. The only time you can attempt to speak to him is before he goes out, never when he returns.
Pcoz, why are you here? Why are you insulting these kids and the parents who are in obvious pain? Do you know anything at all about this parsha? Again I ask you to back up your statement or stop adding salt to open wounds with hurtful and insulting garbage.
If you had any knowledge on this subject what so ever you would know that it all boils down to the hypocrisy!
Pcoz, this particular thread is not one for discussing why kids go OTD. If you are looking for a debate you won’t find it here. This thread is about helping this particular OP and giving her the support she needs. If you are not capable of doing that or understanding how important it is right now for the OP to have that kind of support then please at least understand the difference between this thread and others in the past which discussed this issue.
pcoz, please show me where you found these statistics. I don’t believe this for one minute. There is nothing intellectually wrong with these kids, adaraba I would say they are highly intelligent and that is why they are so hurt by the hypocrisy they see. They are too intelligent to be fooled by it and that is also why they are hurt by it.
HTH, I contacted Avi to ask him if he is monitoring or keeping up with this thread in the CR and so far have not received an answer. I have reserved comment up till now but I do have something to say.
As a parent you too have gone through a very difficult parsha and found TP a tremendous nechama. It worked for you or is working for you, you have not said where you are holding. At any rate you are coming on way too strong with both guns loaded forgetting that you are speaking to a human being in pain and not a mannequin. Understandably, this can happen when you are not speaking to someone face to face and you can see their facial expressions, body language and general reactions to your comments.
One thing that you have forgotten and is a major component when dealing with anyone children included is “compassion”. You are basically yelling at this poor woman and “demanding” that she follow what you are “telling” her to do or her son will fail. You are “ordering” her to concentrate only on what YOU, a student of the system, tell her and block out all other advice whether other advice comes from legitimate sources or not and whether others are offering her legitimate support or not. Basically you are bulldozing her or coming at her like a battering ram, not unlike what the kids themselves feel in the parsha. So much so that the Moderator himself felt the need to say something.
It is very, very obvious that you are sincere and that you want to help here, you want to help her help her child as much as you are helping your child. But you need to understand “different strokes for different folks”. Just as you had to choose which method you would use for your child, so does she have to choose and one more thing. YOU are NOT the originator of the program and maybe you are NOT explaining it appropriately or missing that important component which is the compassion and understanding one needs to show the parents as well. IT IS NOT just about the kids. The parents are also in pain here and the parents need to understand how to separate their pain from their children’s pain in addition to what is happening to their children in order to help them.
Not every parent knows how to love unconditionally. Yes, that is true. Some parents need to be taught. I am not saying c”v that is the case here, but I am just using that as an example why you can’t come on so strong with people and why things need to be laid out and explained. Not every parent can give unconditionally, but when they understand why the child is acting the way they are it makes it easier to do it. Just by yelling at a parent that your child is a choleh, that doesn’t make it work for them. You learn to crawl before you walk and then you run. Things happen in steps and also in bits and pieces.
HTH, your intentions and sincerity are quite admirable but you are a parent in pain that wants to help other parents in pain but you can’t just share your medication. You first have to “listen to understand” the family history, show compassion, understand the situation, find the source of the illness then diagnose it before you can prescribe the medication and therapy.
You can’t tell someone else what to do but you can tell them what worked for you and how and why it worked and I believe that makes all the difference. I respect Avi tremendously as he is a very sincere and compassionate person. I hope you did not to offense to anything that I have written because it is not my intention and I do hope that you continue to help W.O.W by explaining to her how this method is working for you and your family.
W.OW, please be moichel me, I didn’t mean for you to cry. And please don’t blame yourselves, like I said before you can’t go backwards only forwards. You did what you thought was best at the time. How could you possibly have known what he wasn’t truly sharing with you? That’s all water under the bridge. I only pointed this out to you so you would have a deeper understanding of life from his perspective and his point of view.
When he says things to you or does things, please do your utmost NOT to take them personally. They are not designed to hurt you, he is only doing what he thinks makes him feel better. Without knowing the depth of his pain and suffering how could you possibly understand that? When your other kids question his actions you can honestly say he must be treated like a “choleh”. Because he is going through a tremendous nisayon right now and unfortunately he feels like his emuna and bitachon was stolen from him. We can’t even imagine no never even know what it feels like to lose one’s emunah and bitachon, how frightening that must be. So scary that he doesnt want to talk about it or even face it just run away from it. He is going to make a lot of mistakes because without bitachon he doesn’t know or believe that Hashem loves him and is always by his side to help him. He feels alone and that is why he is searching for something that he himself does not know what it is. Eventually, and we don’t know how long it will take, he will realize that Hashem never left his side and watched over him through his entire journey. But until he comes to that realization through his own journey, we will have to be loving and patient so that we don’t push him into the arms of the goyim and into dangerous situations. We have to be the best loving, kind, simchadik, caring, yiddin and role models we can be for him and his friends so that maybe we can help shorten the dark journey they are on and they can find that what they are searching for was inside them all along.
W.O.W., he is your son no matter what, no matter how hard it gets, whether he has girlfriends and even if he eats treif, no matter how low he falls he is still your baby, your gift from Hashem, so never give up on him. That is your nisayon as a parent. Hashem did not give warranties or guaranties when he gave us these special gifts. What Hashem did give us is forgiveness and the ability to do teshuva. Did Hashem ever give up on us his children? Did he ever turn his backs on us and say “gee, how many chances do these stupid kids think I will give them? I’m g-d, they can’t fool me, who do they think they are kidding? Seriously, I should just give up on them and start from scratch.”.
Well obviously, our society has fallen pretty low on the morals and value scale. Many of us wouldn’t blame g-d if he felt that way, but WE are very lucky, we get to do teshuva every day and try again. This is our ultimate role model in parenting. Never give up on your children, the tomorrow will come for forgiveness and healing. If there is a chance that the sun will come up, there is a chance for teshuva, reconciliation, forgiveness, reconnection, etc.
So W.O.W. we daven to Hashem to help us through these hard times, to keep our pained children safe, and that he rebuild his connection with our child very soon. Then we look for a support system because no one can go through this alone without losing their mind. Then we try to keep the family together and move forward as normally or next to normal as we can.
Oomis, thanks for the shout out. I haven’t looked back for many months. I took a peek and saw this thread. I thought if I could be of any help I should try.
W.O.W., as an adult, unlike a child, we have the ability to overcome loss in a mature way. Our minds are developed and we go through the grieving process. There are seven steps of grieving that we as adults follow. Not all of us follow it in the same order but basically it is pretty much text book. Not all of us manage to do it in the same time frame unfortunately and some of us take longer than others because some of us are more sensitive, had a stronger relationship with our own particular loved one than others, or are just plain subject to different variables and everyone grieves in their own way. But eventually we get to the point where life goes on and we realize that we have to accept the unacceptable and we are comforted by Hashem and his goodness and our emunah and bitachon return and with it a huge relief and comfort.
This of course is different than what a child goes through in this parsha because dying is a part of living. It is part of the cycle of life and it can be expected. Unfortunately what our children go through with the hypocrisy that they are exposed to is not to be expected, should never be expected and they should never be exposed to it. Ze lo b’derech hateva. It is almost l’havdil like losing a child. Can a parent ever c”v get over losing a child? Can a child ever get over having the one thing they were sure about be ripped out from right under their feet? A Rosh Yeshiva who was supposed to make them “lek Honik” in regard to yiddishkeit made them feel like they were swallowing bitter herbs. A Rosh Yeshiva who was supposed to guide the entire hanhallah in caressing a talmid’s cheek with a gut vort and encouragement, instead slapped him across the face until it burned with humiliation.
Can you imagine a child davening each morning with Kavana that the Rosh Yeshiva would love him and treat him with kindness, warmth and generosity so the other talmidim would follow his lead? Only to be humiliated by the Rosh and then have the children taunt him over and over again? That is a living nightmare. This is the “HEAD”, who gets all the kovod and honors. Who everyone respects. In the yeshiva and community he is the head honcho, “THE” authority, almost G-d like. Isn’t he “tzelem elokim”. He is as close to G-d as a child can imagine at that age. And instead of being the kind, loving and generous G-d, he is mean, disrespectful and humiliating. Everything that goes against Torah guidelines and principals. HE is a hypocrite as is everything he represents. And Hashem himself is allowing this to happen, Hashem does not answer his prayers and does not do anything to stop this from happening to him. He is in this alone without any support or back-up. Where is his backup? Who is there to rescue him or to guide him through his trouble. Where is even one Rav to sit with him and tell him it will be ok, the R”Y is wrong, he will help him through this, Hashem has sent him as a sheliach to guide him to a better situation? Where was his lifeline?
W.O.W. can you understand why he lost his faith? Why he is lost?
W.O.W., you can’t go back in time and change things that were, you can only do what you can do today, tomorrow and in the future. You did all you could at the time and even consulted with your son at the time. He knows this and is really not blaming you for his pain. But you are the easy targets, you are the ONLY SAFE TARGETS. Believe me he is blaming himself too, and if he blames himself any more he might do something to punish himself. He is carrying enough of a burden, it is better for him to lash out at a safe target. He can’t possibly not ask himself why he didn’t stand up for himself, why he didn’t lash out at the bullies or why he didn’t answer back to the R”Y and tell him what he really thought of him, or why he didn’t listen to you and allow you to switch him into a different yeshiva where maybe there would have been a mentch at the head.
Who knows what is going on in his head? What if he feels like a failure and that he doesn’t deserve your love and your care? What if he feels that he let everyone down including Hashem and all he deserves is to live on the streets with other kids who gave up? What if he thinks this is all he is good for or good at? Or he doesn’t want you to put any more effort into him or pay any more money to yeshivas for him because it is a waste of good money? Or he wants to try everything that the R”Y said was not allowed because he was a hypocrite so he will do everything against HIM? Or he will doing everything to become the “bad kid” the R”Y claimed he was?
There is no way of knowing what he is thinking, only when he lashes out and you get a glimpse of his pain. Even when most of the things he says he doesn’t mean, there is always a bit of the truth that slips out with the bravado and garbage. You have to sort through it to get those little glimpses into his soul. How utterly sad that this is happening to him and to all of you. How utterly avoidable this entire parsha is.
It is heartbreaking when he tells the rest of you not to bother to daven. It is the worst possible feeling in the world to lose your bitachon and emunah. Nebach this poor neshoma, how absolutely lost he must feel without an ounce of bitachon or emunah. The only time I felt like that was when my father died and I felt that Hashem snatched him away from me. It was the most horrendous feeling in the world. It was as if the earth was gone beneath my feet and literally like I lost my footing. I don’t ever, ever want to feel that way again.
W.O.W., btw, one small smile from him will heal your heart. Then it will be broken again and it will heal again. Hang in there, you are in for a long and heart wrenching roller-coaster ride. But we, if not us here in the CR, others in the parsha or familiar with the parsha will be here for you to offer support. You won’t have to go through this alone.
W.O.W., I am extremely happy that he is B”H OK. On the other hand I do understand your hurt and frustration and I will not even attempt to minimize it one iota. It is what it is and you are entitled to your feelings. It hurts and it hurts badly.
Speaking to the R”Y is not a bad idea, although I doubt he will do anything or admit to any wrong doing. However, advocating for your child and letting him know from your perspective and from his what he did and what the result of that is will at least help you and maybe other children. In addition it will mean something to your child that you had the guts to go back to the R”Y and tell him that he was wrong, he hurt your child, and that he owes him an apology. Standing up for your child is always the right thing to do.
WOW, some people cope by saying Tehillim and some don’t cope at all. Try to negotiate a compromise. Tell him it is inconsiderate to make you worry all night and that although you don’t agree that he should stay out all night, if he is going to be out all night he should let you know that and where he is so you don’t have to worry. Although he knows where he is and that he is alive and well you don’t, and your thoughts go as far as him being dead in an alley somewhere and that is not fair to you. If he chooses to be up all night it is not fair that you too should be up all night worrying about him. And you can no longer stop worrying about him than he can be religious today. Just as he wants and needs you to understand that, you need him to understand that you love him and worry about him and you can’t stop just because he says you should. If one of his friends would not show up one night and not answer his phone or text and no one knew where he was wouldn’t he and the rest of the boys worry or be concerned? Well then he should understand how much more you are concerned and worry. So you should come to an understanding to at least be considerate of each other.
WOW, did he mean that he can’t be religious because of you (something you did) or he can’t be religious because of you, meaning for you, if he doesn’t feel it for himself.
One thing I want to make perfectly clear. The home and the school are a partnership in the chinuch, nurturing and success of our children. If there is dysfunction in either the home or the school or they are NOT working in conjunction or are on the same page the children will know it and problems will arise. So when the family might love the child unconditionally but they don’t feel that love from their home away from home, the place that they spend most of their waking hours in, there is a huge problem. If the child does not feel safe, happy, nurtured but on the contrary feels humiliated, picked on, disliked, or otherwise sees hypocrisy and their role models are acting in opposition of what they are teaching there are going to be problems, huge problems.
Some children will react with just exaggerated behavior, not quite the “anov” yid they should be. Those are usually the kids who were not personally targeted. But those who were in the eye of the storm so to speak, or were the target of the negative attention and who were pained and burnt by it and carry the burden will react much differently, much harsher.
Think about it, the mechanchim who are supposed to be the greatest role models for our children, who display less than appropriate behavior make children feel that the religion is not real. And just like this mechanech and the administration who choose to allow him to continue “choose” which mitzvos they will follow or not, the kids feel that they too can “choose” what they will do or not, that the religion is NOT as serious as they were taught it was. That is when it all begins to crumble for them, it loses its stamina and they see the chinks in the armor.
The same thing happens when children who find that stability in the school but find their footing shaken in the home. Children have their two feet firmly planted one in the foundation of the school and one in the foundation of the home. If one or the other develop cracks the safety, security and stability of the child begins to crumble and the first thing that goes with it is what they counted on the most their entire lives, religion. The one thing they thought they could count on. That is the common thread that weaves through every area of their lives.
Children are just that children, their minds are not developed fully enough to understand more than that they have been crushed, pained and burdened. They don’t know how to deal with the pain other than to run and blame. They try to shed the pain by shedding what they think is causing the pain and look for ways to heal, other things to try other uniforms to try on. It takes time for them to mature and grow and figure things out for themselves. It takes time for them to get in touch with their pain and understand what is really hurting them or who really hurt them and why they felt so hurt or is still feeling so hurt. It takes time, maturity and some experience to understand what is right and wrong, especially for them, and how to differentiate between the two. It takes time and maturity to really understand who their friends really are, and how to make the best choices for themselves. Every kid thinks they know best, but when they look back in a year, they realize how foolish they were only a year earlier. My mom a”h always said “mit de yurin kimpt de seichel”, with the years comes the sense.
I only wish that we could truly trust every other Jew with our children. Unfortunately we can’t. Unfortunately we cannot protect our children from even our very own good intentions. When we send our children out the door we expect everyone to treat them as we do, or as we would like them to. That is a pipe dream. When we register our kids in yeshiva we expect them to hire only the best mechanchim and the best role models as if every single one of them were teaching their only child. It doesn’t happen, and we hope and pray that they treat our children as if our kids were their kids, and that doesn’t happen either or at least we hope that they don’t treat their kids the way some of our kids have been treated.
Let’s face it, you don’t need a license or training to be a parent, and you don’t need a license or training to be a mechanech. We have all learned that the hard way and unfortunately a lot of innocent yiddishe neshomas have learnt it the hard way too. I have recently found out that you don’t even need semicha to open a yeshiva and call yourself a Rosh Yeshiva. So for the most part children have managed to live normal lives and successfully move on into adulthood. Unfortunately for those who didn’t we have to help them through the challenge, as difficult as it is, we must do what we can because they didn’t ask to be in the position that they are in any more than we as parents asked to be here. No child who didn’t have any cracks in their foundation finds themselves in this predicament. No child in this parsha enjoys being here. So for those who say “OTD is a choice, these kids are choosing to leave the fold and are choosing the life they are living” I say, YOU Know nothing about the parsha and until you are in it, please don’t comment. I don’t wish any of you even 1/10th the pain these kids are suffering.
WOW, and whomever else is reading this, as difficult as this is for you, please keep in mind how difficult this is for him. I know it doesn’t seem that way at times especially when he runs off at the mouth. At the moment he feels like a man without a country. He is the black sheep of the family. He probably feels like no one in his home or family loves him or understands him. He probably feels like everyone hates him. IN HIS MIND he probably feels that the only ones who do understand him are his friends. In his mind he cannot comprehend that you would or could understand him. How could you understand that his Rosh Yeshiva was wrong? How could you possibly understand why he doesn’t want to go back to yeshiva, why he doesn’t want to be frum when you are so frum, when he is going against everything you believe in, when no one would even believe he is your child? In his mind he can’t understand why you would love him when he is spitting in your face? So he is testing you to see if you mean it, if your love is real or if you will only love him if he is religious, and he can’t be religious for you or because of you or in order for you to love him.
If you received an email address from TP it is probably from Avi.
WOW, in that case I am here for you for as long as the moderators will allow this thread to continue.
If your short term goal is to get your son away from the chevra and back on the derech, I’m afraid I don’t have any tricks in my bag that would help you. As a long term goal it can be achieved but it will be something he will come by on his own or more realistically with the help of other shelichim.
WOW, HTH and I are coming from different perspectives. I have never sat in on these sessions with Avi, but I do respect him. HTH believes that you should not be getting advice from two different sources and that you should try this program with full commitment and concentration without any distraction from me and see if it works for you.
In all honesty I will tell you to do whatever you think will work for you and your child. I promise you that even though you can’t see the light at the end of the tunnel parents do survive the parsha and come out on the other side. I don’t know how you would get hold of HTH but I can tell you that you can google Avi Fishoff to find his number, google Twisted Parenting, or Home Sweet Home and somehow you will get to him. Let us know what you choose to do because I don’t normally comed to the coffee room anymore. However if you need be to check in here I will.
Wow, knowing his history and understanding his need to belong and even to be looked up to, it is very difficult to advise you to deny that to him. On the other hand helping him feel important and even succeeding at this small level might be something to consider. You will not stop him from hanging out with this chevra. You can’t choose his friends for him at this stage, so how can you help him and guide him? Sabatoging his mission will not help either one of you, he will find a way to make it happen without your help. So what can you do to form some kind of alliance with him?
Again I would suggest some form of negotiation for the use of your personal computer. Make an agreement of some kind, either in regard to where he can use it or how he can use it. For instance, he can use it only if he asks you and only if he tells you what he is using it for, again explaining that it is just as important to you as his android is to him. Negotiate with him and come to an agreement.
Personally, in my humble opinion, I feel that it would be the best compromise and option. I dont see it as you helping him being a big shot with his friends, just as you and your son working an issue out together. Especially since he is not downloading anything to your computer and is just using it like an extension chord. But still I would suggest that you maintain an anti virus program because the files are being transferred through your computer, meaning your computer is reading them, therefore you must take very precaution to protect your computer.
WOW, how is he downloading it to his external hard drive?
Ima, why should that be a concern at this point?
I believe that there can be some negotiation with the computer. It does not have to be all or nothing. Is he sharing his android with you? Do YOU get to use it at will? If not I don’t see any reason to hand over your personal item for him to use at his beck and call either.
So from a coaching perspective I would use negotiations. ” I understand that you want to use MY personal computer. I also understand that your new “device” is very important to you. My computer is as important to me as your device is to you. I am no more comfortable just handing it over to you than you would be handing over your personal device to me or any other member of the family, so how do we bridge this gap? What can you do to make me feel more comfortable about this? What solution can we both come up with that would work for both of us?”.
He needs your cooperation. He needs your computer. Let him think about it. In the end he will get what he needs, but let’s see if he can think his way through it instead of just demand it. Let’s see if he can come up with a solution/negotiation to make it work. You don’t have to be enemies.
The best solution is if you allow him to use it in the kitchen, for an hour or two at a time so he doesn’t usurp it and that he recognizes YOUR need to use your own device. Don’t minimize your own need. It is not up to him to decide whether or not you yourself need it or how much you need it.
Let him know your concerns, your own need for privacy and therefore he can’t take it into his room, because you have things on the computer that are not his business no matter how neutral or pareve it is it still is not his business. Just as he has a need for respect and privacy so do you and you don’t want that line crossed. On the other hand you can agree not to watch over his shoulder or comment on what he is doing as long as it doesn’t harm the computer itself. He should also agree not to do anything illegal where you can get blamed and be shut down and also remove anything he downloads so it doesn’t use up the space on the computer and slow it down. You should also agree that he must only download from safe sites and that you have an updated virus protector on the computer that he must also check to see it is up to date and running before he downloads anything.
In addition if he downloads anything that will make unwanted or questionable pop ups appear he will lose the privilege of he computer.
This really needs to be a serious discussion and negotiation. You really have to make a specific written agreement with him including the consequences making it very clear that if he chooses to break the agreement ( don’t use the word rules) then he will choose to lose the privilege. Be sure to reiterate that if he lent you his android under the same conditions and he saw it doing funny things after he specifically told you what not to do, he would not want to let you use it again. After all you love music don’t you? Wouldn’t it be nice to sit down in the kitchen for twenty minutes with your feet up and your eyes closed just listening to your music plugged into your ears?
Why can’t he download from his own android, doesn’t he have Internet ?
What a shame that the children were so cruel and the R “Y didn’t have the common sense and know how to deal with the situation. Maybe the concept of karate now that he is older might not be a bad option to pursue again. It is not as if he needs the approval of his school friends or needs them to join along with him. Mon the other hand it might be considered cool among his new friends or at least for himself. He is allowed to do something for himself without asking permission from his friends.
If he has any talents he would like to pursue that might be another avenue to explore.
Daniela, the worst thing a person can do in this situation is offer unqualified help. I am sorry to say it and hope that you are not offended but we are dealing with a very serious and painful situation and one that outsiders really don’t understand or have no knowledge how to assist in unless they are experienced in the parsha. It is easy to peer inside the window and offer advice or opinions as to what others would do when you were never in the situation nor have no training to understand the situation. Believe me I don’t wish it on you or anyone you know. It is truly something that is beyond comprehension unless your are right smack in the middle of it.
I do have experience helping both kids and parents and Here to Help is in the parsha. So although we have different approaches and don’t always agree, we can agree to disagree, and yet offer “real” help. I do understand the need to help because it is heartbreaking for anyone with a heart when you hear the pain one goes through.
WOW, HTH and I are offering different approaches. I offer what I can from a “coaching” perspective, Twisted Parenting is a concept that Avi has proven with many families. I do have to say that kids need to feel that they are loved and boundaries make a child feel that you care. Obviously one does not use the same boundaries with such children as with the others, but the boundaries that you instinctly chose regarding the late night worked. The electric cigarettes was another boundary whether it was intentional or not. You don’t know what he is thinking and if you leave the playing field wide open he might feel that you don’t care. It might take some negotiation between you, and that is fine and he might feel that he won the negotiation and that is fine too, but he will realize that you care and you are not just throwing him to the wolves.
There is a tug of war going on here between keeping him safe from your perspective and him wanting his freedom to do what he wants to do. YOU see the danger of him hanging out with his friends, something that he is absolutely blinded to. He sees the need to pull away and make his own choices. He is being buoyed on by his friends. In the end he is in control of his choices regardless because you have given him the right to choose, but he also knows that you love him enough to negotiate.
On another note, if possible are you willing to discuss what his issues were, why was he bullied? I wonder if he would be willing to take self-defense courses. If he chooses to check it out, Karate is a very good form of self-discipline. If he is not in yeshiva he will eventually have to go into the army, correct? As a matter of fact, don’t you have to sign up at 16? Having experience in martial arts will give him a leg up in the military and will give him the self-confidence and self-esteem he lacks. Is he at all concerned about that?
Daniela, he would NOT be arrested nor thrown into a psych ward. And if they could take control of him as parents or as any other loving people in his life who cared about them they would.
WOW, firstly as I am still fasting and weak, I can feel your pain and understand everything that you are saying. It is a terrible parsha to be in and one no parent should ever go through. Our children are our life, our reason for living, being, breathing, eating. They bring light into an otherwise dark world, and here in the parsha you feel the darkness with each confrontation and each step in the wrong direction. I hear you loud and clear and feel the agony that brings you here for help.
I wish I could tell you otherwise but I can’t. It is going to get much worse before it gets better. You and your husband will have to brace yourselves and hold on to your hats. It is almost likes surfing sometimes you glide in and sometimes you the waves get you. One thing I have to say is that you can’t give up on him nor can you throw him away. You will never forgive yourselves if you do and he doesn’t deserve it. He is not a bad kid, only a kid going through a very bad situation. He is frustrated and confused and believe it or not he is doing everything he is supposed to in his situation. He is doing everything every other kid does. It is pretty much a textbook story. How each set of parents handle it is the unknown in the situation.
I believe that kids need boundaries and that one needs to promote the concept of RESPECT. Try and keep that in the forefront. I don’t agree with handing over everything he wants and I feel that your husband actually came up with a very creative solution to the cigarette saga, so kudos to him. He is NOT responsible how and when he uses them, so please tell him not to go there. It was extremely clever of him.
He is going to get drunk because that is what kids do to ease the pain. They want to be numb. They do it to be “cool” to their friends but the effect is that they don’t feel anything and they are out of it. That is what they are looking for, not to think and not to feel; not to remember and not to plan. Believe me he wouldn’t like himself or recognize himself drunk.
I don’t feel the need to allow him to boss you around or to tell you whats what nor to make the rules in your home. Everything is a matter of choices and you speak in the language of choice. You gave him a choice when you told him that he had a choice to come home at a decent hour at which time the door would be open, if not the door would be locked. He tested you and he got in. Thats fine. He came home drunk and he should have been directed to his room to sleep it off. I would say “If you choose to get drunk that is a choice only you have control over, but the rest of us do not have to suffer the consequences of your choice. Go sleep it off in your bed or take a shower first, you will feel better”. You might also say and use your son’s name looking squarely in his eyes “stop spouting things you might regret later. Because you are in a drunken stupor and are not in control of yourself. You will not remember what you said or what you do but WE will never forget. It might also be advisable to video his behavior without letting him know. On a calmer day, you might have the opportunity to show him what he looked like drunk.