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BPG, depending on your age, whether a book is appropriate for you to read should be between you and your parents or a teacher you respect. Why are you asking your friend? If you ask one friend they will say one thing and another something else. Not all friends read the same books.

There are many things Young Adults ask their friends about that they really shouldn’t. Shidduchim is at the top of the list. Young adults think that their friends know them the best and will give them the best advice. That is rarely the case. The one thing young adults fail to realize is that friends come and go, and the one thing you should never do is to confide too much to any friend. Friends should NEVER know you better than your family. Even though you think your best friend will be your friend for life. Yes that might be the case, but sometimes that doesn’t happen, and they can and sometimes do turn on you and they should never take those secrets with them when they do.

When Eclipse isn’t around I just tell myself she is spending quality time with her kids 🙂

This is a very interesting situation. Because if it is brought to a vote or a protest both Jews and muslims will have to ban together to fight against this and we would win. The ARABS would revolt in protest and the jews will demonstrate in peace.

Some people are more sensitive than others and you happen to be a sensitive soul. Things do happen and sensitive people always take it personally. Those that you mentioned it to should have taken it upon themselves to mention to the Baal Simcha that you didn’t get an invitation and clear up the matter. If you are NOT close with the him then you should not feel insulted. If it was by error or it was lost, then you should rise above it and not feel badly, many things go wrong when making a simcha. Be a mentch and offer your best wishes and leave it at that. Many times when you just give your blessings the Baal Simcha will say “I hope to see you there, or don’t be late” or something like that. In that case you can say “I never got the invite” or just assume it was lost or whatever.

Or you can ask the RY what he thinks. Tell him you feel awkward. Let him know that you wouldn’t want to insult the Baal Simcha by not coming if he intended to invite you and the invitation got lost since everyone else was invited. But then again, you didn’t get the invite and you wouldn’t want to go if you weren’t invited.

IMHO, parents should not discuss the names they get until they have a “yes”. There is no reason that kids need to feel rejected and frustrated. They should know that you are working on things so they don’t feel like no one is calling and they are forgotten but they don’t need to know how many times they were turned down. Parents should say that they felt it wasn’t right and shadchanim should NOT mention it to the girl’s parents before they get a YES from the boys’ side. Boy’s parents have so many more calls they should NOT tell the boys until they get a YES from the girls. If they are turned down, they don’t have to tell their sons, but sometimes they should mention that the parents felt it was not for them. They should also know that the calls are coming in and not feel that nothing is happening.

Parents need to be extremely careful with this because sometimes its a waiting game and parents have more patience than kids do. If you tell a prospect that the other party was “busy” they will take it as an automatic rejection. Sometimes the other party was truly busy and when that party is available and the name comes up again, that prospect will reject because they are still hurting from the original rejection. It is a very tricky and sensitive balance.

How much a child knows depends on how much a child wants to know and how much they ask. Every parent knows their own child best and should not lie to their child. This is something they need to be on the same page about before they say YES to anyone. Both parent and child need to have a good understanding of what they are both looking for and how they are going to handle things before the calls start coming.

My pleasure I”H b’karov.

Adorable, I disagree with Sac, honestly forget about the past. Today is a new day and you have learned something about yourself. Hold on to that and keep working on your connection with Hashem and your emunah and bitachon will get stronger. Honestly, Hashem has entrusted the most secretive of all mitzvos to women. We are the ones who he trusts to know and understand that we always stand before Hashem and he is watching us. Therefore our mitzvos are “private”. We are the keepers of the future. We are the Mothers of the Nation because Hashem trusts US. So honey no matter what it was close the curtain on it and shut the door. Do whatever is necessary to not only not go back there literally but figuratively. Stop thinking about what you did and stop worrying about it. Say to Hashem “Chatati, salach li, I learned not to do it and I know better now. Dai v’kayam!”

Instead of worrying about what you did wrong that hurt no one but yourself, think about what you can do right. OK? Have a positive attitude, thank Hashem for his blessings and the ones he bestowed upon you, and go out and do mitzvos with happiness and joy. My bracha to you is that you should always enjoy the mitzva of doing mitzvos and with each mitzva you should grow stronger in both emunah and bitachon as you get closer to Hashem.

AYC, I can only imagine that you are talking about a real-world situation and not here in cyber space. I certainly hope that you would not walk away due to one dig from one person.

IMHO, when a hurt is fresh and new we are extra emotional about it and are thoughts and feelings are a bit overblown. WE will “never” speak to that person again, WE will never go out of our way for anyone again, WE will never step foot in that person’s home again, WE will never forgive …. That is why we are constantly reminded “never to say never”.

I believe that you need a little time to get over the initial shock and pain of the affront and then understand your own worth and value. No YOU should not step away from the group. To do so would NOT be beneficial to anyone, it would be a blow to your self-esteem and self-confidence. We can manage to agree or disagree with others, and we can learn to take a hit now and then. But basically we need to learn to all play nice in the sandbox.

If this person continues to attack you, IMHO you should confront it head on and simply ask “do you have a problem with me? I don’t appreciate your digs, they aren’t funny. So if you can’t be civil, lets just agree not to speak.” Whoever it is might be a sarcastic person by nature and no one ever called them on it. Then if you find yourself together with that person in a group. Try to feel as comfortable as you can. If you are addressed directly simply say “I don’t choose to debate this with you personally” and keep it as civilized as possible. Then either wait for someone else to speak or start speaking to someone else. But remember from YOUR part don’t invite discussion by commenting on what the other person is saying. Speak only about other people’s comments.

How does that sound, is that something you can be comfortable with?

One thing I think a menahel and Rosh “could” do in such a situation (since some said there was no choice because he would influence others negatively) is to call a parents meeting of that grade. Both the Rosh and the student should present their case and the boy should then leave. The Rosh should put the achrius on the other parents. He should leave the room and tell them if they have halachic sheilos they should come find him in his office.

I am sure if the whole parent body of the graduating class heard the situation they would come up with a solution that would NOT destroy the boy’s life. Firstly, many of them probably know the boy well, much better than the “moser” involved. Secondly, the boys are already heading out the door and off to E”Y, in most cases. They are going to have to learn to trust their own boys in various situations and know that if they have an ehrlich serious son that is who he will remain. They will also realize that they don’t have a clue who their boys will meet in E”Y, and what they will do. So if they judge this boy so harshly and kick him out, is this the verdict and consequence that they are hanging on their own son’s necks if they slip up even a little on their own?

Also note that if this “moser” called the boy’s yeshiva she probably also called the girl’s school. That means that she ruined two kid’s lives over something that was firstly none of her business and secondly probably no big deal. It would be a totally different ball game, if out of concern she spoke to his and to her parents and mentioned that “it might not be appropriate” and they might want to be aware. So yes she is a “moser” of the worst kind.

Getting back to the parents, if someone wanted to check out the truth of the situation, one of the mothers could have quietly and gently met with the girl and heard her version as well. And out of concern for her also explain how such an seemingly innocent act can snowball into ruining two lives. So I suggest that such a decision should have been made by the parent body of the graduating class and the Rosh should abide by that decision.

In addition, if any child in any school knew that if they broke such a rule that the community thought was so horrific and they would have to go in front of the entire grade’s parents to explain themselves in order for a decision to be made whether or not they can remain in school, that in itself would be a more effective means of consequence. No frum child understands how another child can just go OTD. No frum child understands how one can just lose their bitachon and emunah like the drop of a hat. No one believes it will happen to them. So they may or may not take getting kicked out of school as a joke or a serious consequence because after all they can always fall back on the GED. But no child would want to have to go in front of their own parents and their friends’ parents explaining their mistake and beg for another chance. That is scary.

Health, you are being a very harsh judge on kids who do NOT have your strength and stamina. THEY also do not necessarily have a support system or know how to ask for or reach out for help. I do get that you don’t understand this and I can’t make you open your eyes to the pain of this. However, if you really DO want to understand it for my perspective or from the perspective of teens today, reach out to some of these kids and see how lost and how much pain they are in. Yes on the outside they look very tough…until you take the time to get to know them and actually converse with them, then you see the fear and pain in their eyes.

Health, you have your own bitter experiences and YOU understand YOUR situation inside and out, up and down, and in whichever many ways it twists and turns. On the other hand, those that work or have experience in THIS particular parsha understand the same types of ups and downs and twists and turns relative to it. If you’re just peering through the glass looking in you just can’t get it. No matter how much you think you understand it, no matter how much you think you know, no matter how much you know you would have done it differently, unless you are in their shoes within their variables you just can’t say that and certainly you can’t judge.

Let me ask you this. How much did you appreciate your ex’s friends and family judging you from what they “saw” or assumed or would have done in your situation? Please don’t answer that, just think about it.

On a happier note I would like to deliver a Nachas Gram, one of my girls, the one I consider my daughter who has been with me for 8 years has just had her first baby! A beautiful girl she named for her mom. I am a very proud and grateful Bubby! KEIN YIRBU!!!

Most of the kids that I mentored/coached are now married. One young man B”H is getting married in a few weeks to an amazing young woman. He claims that had I not gotten involved in his life, he would never have met her. I say had I never met him my life would not be so rich and full. In this particular case we almost lost him to a drug overdose. And now he is b”h getting married and ready to build his own bayis ne’eman.

Apologies are always accepted, thank you both, all is good we are all friends here and I would like to keep it that way. Please keep in mind that we are in mixed company and not everyone can quote Mishna and Gemara nor do we ALL know exactly what former and current “bochurim” are referring to. But we are always willing to learn what you are willing to share with an open heart. Obviously more so when it is intended to share knowledge than just to be right. So I, as I am sure many others, are happy to learn something new when it is presented in the proper format. Thanks again.

My nephew recently got married. At his aufruf Shabbos my husband was walking with him and chapped a shmooze. He asked him what was the most important thing his chosson Rebbe taught him. He replied “the three A’s..Attention, Affection and Appreciation”.

SJSinNYC, seriously? Do you really think it is just so easy to just take the GED? Could you just sit down today and take it? And how would you feel if you deserved a regular diploma or a regents diploma and you had to go get a GED and not get into the college of your choice if that’s what you choose to do?

PBA, I don’t NEED to be right, but if you want to argue with me for the sake of arguing as you choose to do on occasion I will take the bait (on occasion). I don’t like it, but sometimes I give in to it. I would be happy to know of the Mishneh that proves your point, however I don’t like to be baited by ridiculous comparisons like if I baked a cake would it be my child.

If you want to have an intelligent conversation we can and I am happy to learn from anyone, but if you want to go speak gibberish I will call you on it.

Pac Man, not true, I disagree. Just because a bochur gave into a taiva does not mean he didn’t want to go there or he doesn’t want to be there. That is assuming way too much on your part. Especially when it was his first offense. If you are talking about a bochur who is normally speaking to girls, then that is another conversation and then you would be correct.

bein_hasdorim, you gave me a very good and needed laugh after a very serious and frustrating debate on another thread. Yasher Koach.

Unfortunately there is every reason to get emotionally involved and that is because whether THIS particular story is true or not this situation is all too true. AND because there are way too many Yiddishe neshomas chased away from yiddisheit and lost to us because of foolish stubborn decisions made on protocol and not on seichel and compassion when that is what is really needed. In addition, many of the parents who insist that these “bad” kids be thrown out face the same nisyonos somewhere down the line with their own kids or kids that are close to them. At that time they are not running to the administration with “demands” they are running to the hanhalah begging for compassion and mercy.

In addition, the Yeshiva community have not come together to work out a way to transfer students from the Yeshivish to the more modern academia where these infractions would NOT be an issue. They are thrown out to the streets and once thrown out NO OTHER yeshiva will touch them with a ten foot pole. Why can’t the Rosh call the modern orthodox yeshiva and say to the menahel or Rosh there, “I have an excellent student, a metzuyan academically but he broke the rule by speaking to a girl. Could you please give him a farher, you will be very pleased with him.” Why must a bochur be treated like yesterday’s garbage? Why not find some other form of consequence? Honestly, he didn’t ruin his life by speaking to a girl, the yeshiva did. He could have been helped. Many of the kids that have been shoved off the derech could have been helped and aided by caring mentors. And yes, many might not have cared because the issues did not begin in the yeshiva but in the home. But even then if the Yeshiva would have noticed early enough, they could have made a difference in those children’s lives as well.

Why are kids being taken for granted. Yes I am emotional about this because I worked with the At-Risk population and they are in pain. And if their families were not dysfunctional before they were thrown out from yeshiva they certainly became dysfunctional and broken afterwards. It effects more than just the child. When a Yeshiva throws even one child out, it effects the entire mishpacha, don’t kid yourselves it does. And anyone who has a hand in it, whether it is the moser, or the parents who the yeshiva say “want this” or the yeshiva administrations themselves, will have have to answer for the damage they caused.

These are serious issues, and no one should take it lightly. In this particular scenario, the Rosh if he had to, could have told the Bochur that he can not come to graduation but he can take all his tests and he will get his deserved grade and diploma. Who would have been hurt by that? Can anyone say that any other boy would have been influenced to the bad by such a consequence? Is not going to graduation not enough of a consequence? Is not partying with your class not enough of a consequence?

So yes I am emotional and I don’t think asking why they don’t cut out his tongue or poke his eyes out is any more ridiculous than shoving these kids off the derech. Or maybe you would prefer a public flogging?

PBA, if you choose to think the worst about someone you automatically will. If you choose to dan l’kaf zchus you will as well. The glass is either half full or half empty depending on the way you choose to look at it. If you want to throw the kid out and are looking to make trouble for him, you will see things the way YOU do. If you know the kid as the OP described a “good boy” who never got into trouble all the years then you would choose as I do to dan l’kaf zchus. It is as simple as that.

Why would you even think something wrong about a good kid. Why would anyone “always choose” to think badly about kids in general. As my friend used to say “G-d don’t make no junk!”. Stop forcing these kids into the molds you expect them to be. Again, he didn’t rob anyone, he didn’t drug anyone, he didn’t hold anyone up, shoot anyone, hurt anyone, etc. Stop making the kid out to be a hoodlum or a villain which he is not.

Why not cut out his tongue while your at it or poke out his eyes? Would that be enough punishment for you for such a terrible aveirah? Please show me in the Torah where these consequences exist for speaking to the other gender. Enough is enough already. Let these kids breathe and live a frum life! Stop cutting them off at the knees and throwing them out like smelly garbage. You would think they suddenly developed tzoras and had to be banished from the land.

Pac-Man, you are over reacting. You are NOT comparing apples to apples. As mother a”h always said “ver hut kinder noch in shteib zol shvagen”. For those who don’t understand yiddish, I will give you a literal and loose translation. The literal is “those who still have kids at home should stay quiet” meaning, no one knows who Hashem will test next so it is better to stop judging and keep your mouth shut!

This could have been a test of the children involved, it could have been a test for the Yenta (sorry holymoe) this could have been a test for the RY, and this can also be a test for those who are quick to judge the child so harshly. Please remember that Yeshiva’s have been throwing out kids for this infraction and ruining their lives for more than a decade already. Has this “consequence” helped or are they still throwing kids out for this same infraction? Think about it!!!!!

Don’t you think that if this was the right consequence it would have impacted the kids in an effective manner and no one would be getting kicked out any longer? If they still have to use these horrendous methods it probably isn’t working, it is a “broken” system. It didn’t work ten years ago and it still doesn’t work now. If they don’t want kids to talk to the other gender the yeshivas and parents should talk to them about it. They should also speak about the horrors of drugs and alcohol. They should speak about why doing these things are wrong for underage kids and for kids who are in the Yeshiva and not on the Shidduch scene. They need to explain to kids why we say “NO” and not just say “NO”.

For all of you who are taking this so lightly, if it were your son this happened to, would you say that this teaches him that there are consequences for his actions and thats that? I highly doubt it. It is very easy to sit in judgment on someone else’s chesbon. I hope you never know the tzar this young man and his family will experience because of the selfish act of this Yenta and her counterpart the RY that threw him out. . No offense HolyMoe.

popa_bar_abba, are you saying that they were created by some other G-d? As far as I know there is only one!

BaalSechel, sorry to tell you and others, this same story takes place too many times to count.

Halevi, in your opinion. That is a mentchlich conversation and there is nothing untoward about it. There is nothing too personal or inappropriate about it. It is not someone who he stopped in the street, it is a neighbor who’s mother, father, sister or brother could have been in the window or on the porch. It was in front of her and basically his own home, where his parents could have seen as well. No big deal. Again, menchlich and nothing to be hidden or to be ashamed of.

Maybe if more people would pull their heads out of the sand and out of the shmutz, kids would have more healthy lives and there would be a lot less OTD kids we have to deal with. There is nothing wrong with mentchlichkeit, something the Yenta lacks.

PBA, YES I DO, and NO I DON’T. The mods edited, but they know exactly what my comparison was.

Over the years I’ve found it really is a personal preference like doctors. One person will have an excellent experience while another will have a horror story. It is best to ask your own family and good friends who know you best.