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Sibs as well as parents have a choice. Should they worry about what other people think or do they need to worry about what this unfortunate OTD child thinks. What does Hashem want from them, to worry about your neighbors and yentas or to worry about the people nearest and dearest to you who needs you to love them and care about them when they are in the worst distress of their lives?

Who should you have loyalty to? Please, honestly think about it. If you stop worrying about what the world thinks about your sibling and understand that we each go through our own nisayon and Hashem will judge us on how we each deal with our challenge then we can handle this better. The OTD child is going through a nisayon of his/her own. The parents and siblings are going through another nisayon, how will they handle this situation and how will they treat this child, Hashem’s child, who is going through this terrible rough patch and journey in his/her life?

The best thing that you can do is love them unconditionally. There is a huge difference between “tough love” and “loving tough” so do your best to “love tough” as tough and as hard as you can so that your sib can feel it with every nerve ending in their body. They have to feel your love and your care over and above the vibes they are getting from the friends they are making that are accepting them for who they are and are validating their pain.

Try to be the shoulder they cry on, if you can be the ear they vent to, it can keep them from joining others who are OTD and help them on their way. When I work with At-Risk kids I woulds say “If a goy hurt you like this Yid or Rebbe hurt you would you say ‘All Goyim’ are bad? Why do you lump the whole religion together and take out your frustration on the entire religion instead of just this one person with bechira who gives in to his yetzer horah instead of listening to his yetzer tov?” That really gives them something to think about. I also say “Gie it over to Hashem because he is the best score keeper and believe me, he DOES keep score. He rights everything down, everyone has their own page and he writes everything down, and after 120, he will have to give a din v’chesbon and answer for very kid her hurt not just you. Every single thing he said and every single thing he said. Him and every other Jew who does not live up to Hashem’s true Torah Values”

People are only human, and they have the same human qualities as do goyim. Everyone makes choices and whether they are a Rebbe, mechanech, teacher, parent or child, WE all make mistakes. Unfortunately some of those mistakes hurt other people and sometimes to such a degree that it pushes kids OTD. If we can show that it has nothing to do with Yiddishkeit but with human nature and personal mistakes and choices, then we can save kids from running away from who they really are.

momma, you are really truly stuck between a rock and a hard place and it is a very difficult decision that you made to stay in an abusive relationship. It sounds that you are slowly standing up for yourself and empowering yourself (I hope). You don’t sound like a victim you certainly do sound like a survivor. I ask all my clients to read “Choice Theory” by Dr. William Glaser. I don’t know if you have heard of it or not, but you might gain some chizuk and some insight from it. If I can offer support in any way please let me know.

twisted, I don’t really believe that anyone really listens to the reading of the kesubah to hear whether or not the Kallah is a besulah or not. So I don’t really think it is that big an issue.

My question is how did this thread turn around to be about this topic when the OP’s question really is what happens when someone tries to trick the other party and a friend of the other party is witness to it, should they tell or not?

Thank you Minyan Gal, I enjoy having you around as well.

BH, my apologies to the OP, please replace any inference to the OP in my post with “your friend”.

All these may be things to think about and work on if they are true, on the other hand HE might need a dating coach to explain that girls are “girly” and boys should be “manly”. A boy cannot expect a girl to act like his chavrusah and should understand that girls will behave differently than their friends do.

So you might have to review the date and see if there were things you did or if there is something about you naturally that would give off a particular “girly” or immature vibe. If it is true then you can thank him for being honest so you can work on the areas that need improvement in order to help you for future shidduchim. If he is off the mark, then just chalk it up to a mismatch and move on. Don’t let it get to you.

Yes its true, I stayed away. There was a mod who didn’t post my comments and deleted those that were posted. So there was no point for me to participate.

Thank you for the welcome back, I appreciate it.

Our neighborhood has taken on “OAK” simple “Acts of Kindness” this month. No one realizes how one simple act of kindness means to another person and how it can have a chain reaction or a ripple effect. So even a simple act of kindness can grow into a huge, huge mitzvah.

SM29, whether one is in a position to something grand to help another or just a simple act of kindness, now would be a great time to start thinking of others and please don’t forget those who live in your own home, spouse, children, brothers and sisters who we often neglect in order to be generous and noticed. Helping someone carry their groceries from the car is a huge big deal for that harried mother carrying her baby in one hand and the groceries in the other, or that elderly woman who is walking alone. But people rarely notice and just walk by with blinders on. Even holding a door open while a woman is trying to push through a carriage seems like a forgotten art at times. Offering a neighbor a ride to the store, telling a neighbor you have a free hour can you help with the kids, volunteering to tutor a weak kid to bring him up to par in his class and raise his/her confidence and self esteem. There are a thousands ways to do a simple act of kindness.

Thanks for starting this thread.

Chein, obviously you should consider you health first and foremost and truly consider losing the appropriate weight for yourself and your family. Firstly because they love you and need you. And secondly to be a good role model.

As far as a solution “in the mean time” suspenders is always an option or you can try using snaps or velcro sewn into your pants and shirts. Suspenders is the easiest way to go. But don’t buy cheap suspenders that will make you look sloppy. Get yourself a handsome pair that you can be proud to wear. Then work on losing the weight. You will be surprised that you might get accustomed to the look and choose to wear them as an accessory even after you lose the weight.

Squeak, I thought the OP was female. What made you think the OP was male? It is not usual that a male would want to get so involved or even speak so much about it. I absolutely thought I was speaking to a woman and I was advising a woman to stay out of it. Did you notice that I asked “HER” if she was a friend of this scorned wife and if she was trying to help her? Please reread my post. Maybe YOU were too quick to judge me and it is you who is biased here because I was speaking to a female poster and NOT a male poster. One of us has been fooled or misunderstood. Which one is it? At any rate YOU believed that I was speaking to a male and siding with a woman when all the while I thought I was speaking to a woman and was talking about the pain of divorce and not knowing what truly goes on behind closed doors and being careful not to meddle in and cause more pain. In the end the OP and I both agreed that this is NOT the arena to discuss this in and you are the one that has the problem.

PMTC, its sounds like it much more complicated than just a scorned woman. You are right to handle it in a private setting.

This is what is working for me. I went to an Endocrinologist and got myself checked out. He found out what was going on with my body and my metabolism. That was the first thing. Fortunately and unfortunately he was a good detective and excellent doctor and found out things that my regular doctor never bothered to check for. He put me on the right medications and he is taking very good care of me. He and his staff including a nutritionist have taught me a lot about what is going on with me and what I need to know about the food I eat, especially carbs, white flour and sugar. He also explained about skipping meals and slowing down my already sluggish metabolism by NOT taking in enough calories and eating the wrong foods.

So this was his advice. Make sure to eat protein within one hour of waking up to kick start your metabolism. Your metabolism needs protein to get fired up just like a car needs fuel to run. Without the protein your metabolism will not start burning off the fat. Calorie counting doesn’t work unless you are watching your carb intake. If you are eating the appropriate amount of calories but they are all the wrong calories your body will store fat instead of burn fat.

When dieting don’t watch the scale because it is your enemy. If you are not going to a doctor who has a bmi scale, then don’t weigh yourself. You don’t know if you are losing water, muscle or fat. You might be very proud of yourself but if you are losing water you will gain it back, if you are losing muscle you are harming yourself and you will replace it with fat and if you gained a pound or two, you will be discouraged and maybe eat less, but that could be a good gain of muscle that you put on through exercise and muscle burns fat. So if you are working with a doctor he will encourage you through the process and help keep you healthy with minor corrections as you go along. If you do it on your own be very careful not to fall into the diet pitfalls like weighing yourself 3 times a day or everyday and then punishing or rewarding yourself according to the scale.

PMTC, If you took what I said as an attack then it was how you read it and not how I wrote it. I asked you a question and that was what was the purpose of your thread which you didn’t answer. I also said you might be 100% right but neither you nor the rest of us can know that for sure and I am saying that as a coach and as someone with experience in these matters. And no I am NOT too attached to my “Client’s” situation to respond to this thread.

Here in the CR we have heard cases such as Health’s where we understood the wife and the wife’s family to be at fault in the divorce, not that he is badmouthing her in public, but he explained the situation and we offered him support. So we are quite capable of understanding the situation from both sides. Divorce is a very serious issue and not one to take lightly and certainly not one for others to mix into. We all agreed as did you that no one can know the 100% truth of the story, we can only see it from the perspective we choose to view it. You have chosen to view it from the husband’s perspective and offer him your support. You have taken a very negative stand against the ex-wife and her behavior although you have admitted that you don’t know everything.

My question still stands, what is the purpose of this post. Do you want advice as to how to help her calm down? Are you her friend? Do you want advice as to how to help him? If he didn’t ask you for help then I would advise you to seriously stay out of it and let him handle it on his own through his own Rabbonim and attorneys. Are you connected to the children in some way?

Is this a personal issue for you? Do you want advise as to how you can get over this and not let it bother you so much? If that is the case then I can tell you that you can’t control other people only yourself and you can’t change other people other than yourself. This poor woman whether she is crazy or she is hurt is going through her own issues and there is nothing you can do to change what has happened. Unless you are a friend of hers and can validate her feelings and guide her into therapy to let go of the past and leave her baggage behind in order to be able to fully appreciate what she currently has, then there is nothing you can do other than work on yourself to daven for her and let go of the situation.

You assumed that I am too attached to my client’s situation. You might consider giving thought to why you are so attached to this situation. Is this man a friend or relative? Does it hurt you that a good person is being wrongly accused? Well that happens often and it is not within out control to change that. Although if he asked you to get involved and help him make her stop I could advise you on how you could possibly do that. But without his request and without his permission you do not have the right to get involved and you would be meddling and that would be inappropriate.

There are many things that is within my ability to do to help others, but without their request or permission I don’t have the right to do it. I have to hold myself back and stay out of it, and keep my distance up until the time that they “choose” to ask me to be involved. It can be very difficult sometimes because I might be able to clear things up for them easier than they are doing it themselves but it is NOT my place to offer nor to do it. It is up to them to ask for assistance and to ask for my involvement. Up until then I have to remain an outsider to the situation, like a Mother-in-law who knows how to keep her mouth shut. With my client for instance, there was a lot I had to say to her husband, however, I would never call him or email him unless she specifically asked me to speak to him. When I work with at risk kids it is up to them whether or not I speak to their parents. I would never approach a parent unless a child asked me to. The time to get involved is when you are in the middle of the situation or you are asked to get involved. And even when you are in middle of a situation you have to step very lightly and make sure you have permission to get involved or you might make the situation worse.

That’s very smart, so try to lead by example. When you are together be the leader and ask that all phones be turned off so no one interrupts your family get together. If you are visiting with them and he keeps looking at the phone or the phone goes off you might remark “Oh Chaim, the phone again, I was so hoping to enjoy your company for just a short uninterrupted time, is it something very important?” Try to make him feel important and wanted instead of criticizing him about his habit. Try involving him and including him to keep him busy and interested in what’s going on. Make a point of telling your husband, “Tatty, let the machine get it, don’t answer the phone when the kids are here, we can call who ever it is back when the kids leave”.

These are important teaching tools that you are role modeling for them.

a mamin, if you are talking about what the kids do on their own, then I would tell you “stay out of it”. If you are talking about what he does in front of you, then I would say try that and maybe it will have an effect on him that will carry over to the times when they are alone. The only thing that you can do to be a mashpiah on him is to set a good example. If you meddle in their business you will cause a problem that both of them will resent you for.

Sam2, I agree with you, there is something there that never healed. And even though someone seems like a tzaddik to the outside world, as we have all learned lately, that doesn’t mean they are a tzaddik to the one that should be on the top of their priority list. This makes it even more painful and hurtful to that woman because of the hypocrisy involved and because no one believes that this angel, this tazaddik could possibly hurt her in any way. That’s the kicker, that’s the trigger and the stimulus that probably keeps her going, because no one knows him the way she knows him from her perspective and no one validates her and therefore she keeps going on, and on, and on. Who knows, maybe if she got the validation that she needs, she would stop.

I am involved in such a case now. My client’s husband is abusive and she hasn’t said anything through her long marriage. She has just informed both their families and they are all shocked, but because she is who she is they believe her. But if you would go out on the street and ask about this choshuv guy you would get the same reaction as the poster describes about the ex that she knows. No one knows what goes on behind closed door. So although it seems crazy and it is foolish of her to keep it up, you don’t know the pain she carries within. Her current husband might actually understand and have compassion for her.

People have their reasons for moving and people have their reasons for staying. Most reasons are usually connected to family. How does one pick up and leave elderly parents behind, who will care for them? How do you pick up and just leave your married kids and grandchildren? Or one spouse wants to and the other spouse doesn’t so it is a Shalom Bayis issue and the couple just isn’t on the same page.

Then there is the fear factor. You can’t control another person’s fear or anxiety no matter how much you try to reason or rationalize. Your bitachon says that Hashem will watch out for you and it is more dangerous riding a subway in NY than walking the streets of E”Y. That does not help someone else’s fear and anxiety. You have no idea how many New Yorkers have never even had the experience of visiting Israel for this very same reason.

Many, many people’s hearts are in Yerushalayim while their feet are firmly planted in NY. That is just how it is, and no one can judge them for it.

mechanical pencils?

AZOI.IS, your kids are NOT the only ones who pay rent to pay off the Landlord’s mortgage. Azoi is is for most young couples until THEY can afford to buy a home. Owning a home is expensive and one needs to be able to handle that on their own. It is NOT enough to be able to handle the mortgage, they also need to hand the insurance, taxes and any repairs and surprises that pop up. Are they looking at a one family or two family? Are they counting on additional income from a tenant? What if that rental is empty for a while? Will they be able to handle it or will they be coming back to you for help?

Honestly, paying rent is not the worst thing and really that should NOT be your problem. If it bothers you too much then this is really your issue and not theirs. Again if you don’t feel comfortable “gifting” them the money then tell them both, I can’t give you the money at this time, but I can “lend” you some money for a downpayment. In that case both of them will be responsible to repay the loan and you are not singling your child out over your in-law child. You will have time in the future to decide whether or not to accept the repayment. If you accept it, you can then turn it into trust funds for the grandchildren or find another way to secure it for your daughter or grandchildren.

Health, if you need me I’m here, but if Hashem has not sent you my way, I am pretty sure you are not desperate for my help.

Is this the first time you took it there? How old is the sheitel?

Middlepath, exactly, we each have a tafkid on this earth and we don’t know what it is. So we have to serve Hashem with joy and simcha to the best of our ability. That in itself brings joy to Hashem, the fact that we understand our purpose and that we follow his Torah and mitzvos. Thanks for your support MP.

Hacham, so is the internet. Just as you choose where to go and how to channel yourself so can people do the same in other areas. You have the choice and so do they. You can get much more shmutz on the internet and yet here you are. And please don’t tell me you have safety nets and blocks. People can put that on their TV’s and they can choose to watch only appropriate G-rated movies as well.

You and WIY and anyone else backing him up has no good reason for being on the internet which is just as bad and even worse than TV and movies. You can watch TV and Movies on your computer through internet. So lets not have that conversation again. We did it already. My point is NOT to discuss it again. MY point is, just as you guys give yourselves a hetter to be here on the internet, you particularly do NOT have the right to judge other people for watching TV or Movies. The same rabbonim who say THAT is assur, also say the INTERNET is assur.

That is my point, being hypocrites, the pot calling the kettle black. That is what I am asking. Stop judging other people. It has nothing to do with movies or internet. That was already discussed here. WE all know what the rabbonim say about it. OK? WE are sure YOU know what the rabbonim say about the internet. WE don’t care if you and WIY and everyone else is here. Kol Hakovod, do what you want, WE don’t want to judge you. it is YOU guys that want to judge others with your musser. AND yes, it was not just a cut and paste it was directed especially to “those who watch movies”. That is all I am going to say about it. Those who are guilty of judging others will argue my point to death. Those who understand what I am saying will not comment.

It is possible the girl made the date without checking if her parents will be home that night, or all her siblings were at home and they weren’t cooperating. Those things happen. There is no reason not to go out with her again, but if it happens again, he should definitely ask her about it.

Why are you assuming that the movie watchers are watching filthy movies? In that case should they assume that you are going into filthy areas on the internet? Assumptions can be made both ways.

Therefore it is better to be dan l’kaf zchus and NOT make assumptions and to be careful what you think and what you say to other people. You are walking on very judgmental ground. You have your reasons to be on the internet and other people have their reasons to watch movies. Enough said.