Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
In case you don’t trust humans anymore, I presented the question to Google, and the AI overview gave the following answer:
Will population growth, combined with an age gap at marriage, force some women to remain single?
Yes, a combination of population growth and a significant age gap at marriage could potentially force some women to remain single, as the pool of available partners within their preferred age range might shrink, creating a “marriage squeeze” where there are more women seeking partners than men in their desired age bracket, potentially leaving some women without a suitable match.
Professor Sautmann, formerly a professor of economics at Brown University stated [regarding the shidduch crisis in India]: “When women marry younger than men, higher population growth leads to a surplus of women in the marriage market. To resolve this surplus, the age gap at marriage MUST decline.”
DaMoshe wrote:
“There’s a big issue with the 7:00 early Shabbos minyanim. If you’re going to daven Kabbalas Shabbos before shkiah, you need to daven Mincha before plag. Plag today in Brooklyn is 6:22, so Mincha starting at 6:10 or so should work.”Actually davening at 7:00 is much better than davening at 6:10. The reason is that by davening at 7:00, you are davening mincha before the Magen Avraham’s plag and maariv after the magen avraham’s plag, so there’s no issue of a tarti disasri. If you daven at 6:10, it means that you are davening Maariv before the Magen Avraham’s plag. The Mishna Berurah isn’t machria which plag is lihalacha. As such, by davening Maariv before the Magen Avraham’s plag you are making tens of (safek) brachos livatala. It is better not to daven at all than to daven Maariv before the Magen Avraham’s plag, unless you are a Granik.
A better question is: Was Einstein smart?
There is a mountain of evidence that his work was stolen from others, including from his gentile wife who he later divorced, and never gave any credit. Physicists who “spoke to him in learning” report that his own contributions were “junk.”
UJM:
Once a couple of bochurim in the shiur are married young, it a) becomes NORMAL to get married young, and b) other bochurim will follow suit. The reason why bochurim start dating at 23 is because “everyone” dates at 23. Once a small, but significant, percentage start shidduchim, the rest will follow suit.Always Ask Questions:
That Telzer Rosh Yeshiva wasn’t aware of recent data which shows that Chassidim have a lower divorce rate than other Yidden, despite – or perhaps even due to – getting married young. Had he been aware of that statistic, I doubt he would have maintained his position. Perhaps that Rosh Yeshiva would have agreed that in the internet age – where many bochurim become addicts between 18 and 23 – which itself causes divorces, we should get married at 17.The solution to the delay that women suffer from is for men to start shiddum at a younger ages. The way to do this is to award bochurim who are the first in their class to get married. For example, if you are the first boy to get married from Rebbi Ploni’s yeshiva, you get 100K, the second bochur gets 30K. This will keep pushing bochurim to start shidduchim younger; if they meet the right girl they can bag 100K. There is enough money in klal yisroel to support this endeavor (there are 20 top Yeshivas; if every Yeshiva costs 130K per year times 20, it would cost 2.6 million per year; Dirshu and Adopt-a-Kollel EACH have yearly budgets that are ten times that).
True, I am not claiming that all, or even most, girls who work in a law firm for 20 years automatically wouldn’t classify themselves as “Yeshivish.” But it does chip away at the percentages.
Indeed, part of the problem is the word “Yeshivish.” Many wouldn’t necessarily classify themselves as Modern Orthodox, if not for the fact that the only alternate term offered was “Yeshivish,” a term that they wouldn’t apply for themselves either. Remember, many girls never go to shul or any shiur. Their connection to Yeshivish orthodoxy is very tenuous, and depends on being surrounded by other Yeshivish people, which obviously doesn’t exist in the law firm.
I spoke to the lead author of the study about a year ago and he mentioned that THE central factor of the shidduch crisis is the fact that as people remain single, they longer classify themselves as Yeshivish.
There are a few issues with the study:
1) It doesn’t factor in the fact that single girls oftentimes marry divorced men, preventing divorced girls from finding a shidduch;
2) It doesn’t factor in that fact that FFB girls often marry Baalei Teshuva, preventing Baalos Teshuva from finding a shidduch (the study didn’t study Baalei Teshuva);
3) When girls are single for many years surrounded by secular people – e.g., working in a law firm for twenty years – they no longer categorize themselves as “Yeshivish,” considering themselves either Modern Orthodox. So if data were to show that “100% of Yeshivish girls get married,” it’s a tautology. Girls who aren’t married at 40 no longer consider themselves “Yeshivish” per se (e.g., they wouldn’t want to marry a learning boy).
4) There really are two Yeshivish communities. There are Touro College families and there are BMG (freezer) families. Touro College types use the internet; BMG types use it less so, and their computers are filtered. So when you do an INTERNET survey which largely excludes the BMG-freezer types, you are omitting the community that one would assume suffers the most from the shidduch imbalance.
5) As the Chofetz Chaim says, (Nidcei Yisrael, perek 25), people who are single are prone to die young. So if data shows “95% of Yeshivish people are married by 40” we should consider the fact that some single people are no longer with us, caused by the fact that they couldn’t find a shidduch.
6) Even taking the study’s conclusions, the study points to a serious issue: the ultimate age gap is around two years, despite the fact that in the Yeshivish community there’s a two year gap. This is good news, but also is bad news. Good news, because there’s less of an imbalance. Bad news, because it highlights the fact that girls have to wait to EXTRA years, in addition to the regular waiting that boys go through. These two additional years apply to everyone, on average, although of course some way 6 EXTRA years, while others way zero EXTRA years. This additional waiting is devastating to girls, not knowing whether they will ever get married.Correct. Going off has a higher death rate, and being disabled has a higher death rate. There is certainly SOME redundancy. But obviously not full redundancy.
We don’t need an actual tally. Shadchanim tell us that they have more girls than boys. If so, why should we tally?
Why does ANYTHING they say start off with a presumption of falsehood? If I were to ask a footsteps member if it was raining in Bnei Brak, why shouldn’t I trust it?
I don’t understand your point regarding Footsteps. I asked him and open-ended question: what is the ratio between OTD boys and girls? How does the fact that they hate Orthodox Jews sway their answer? “Who is wise? One who learns from all people . . . accept the truth from one who says it.”
Let’s use Israel as an example regarding the early death factor: By the time they are in their mid-thirties, men and women are equal in number.
In Australia, for example, “almost twice as many boys as girls had a disability (192,800 or 9.6% of boys compared to 103,600 or 5.4% of girls). This sex difference also applies when we consider the pattern for children with a severe disability (97,400 or 4.9% of boys compared to 47,000 or 2.5% of girls).”
Regarding the OTD rate, I spoke to a statistician who studies the shidduch crisis, who stated that he believes that the greatest factor in the shidduch imbalance, even more than the age gap, is the OTD-rate differential (if I remember correctly).
The OTD-rate differential, the early-death-rate differential, the disability differential–we can’t control. We can control the age gap, however, and we can FACTOR in all the other differentials to produce the optimal age gap. It isn’t a perfect science. Perhaps the optimal age gap is for girls to be a year older; perhaps it is for the boys to be a year older. We know two things for certain: a) shadchanim say that have many more girls; b) we seem completely OBLIVIOUS to these issues when deciding when children should start shidduchim.
Orthodox Jewish children are miraculously free from being disabled?
What percentage of people die from drug overdoses and violence that allows you to make your conclusion regarding early deaths?
Your claim of “the OTD factor isn’t especially overrepresented by either gender,” is based on what? Intuition? Hope? My information is based on someone who works in the OTD community, a Footsteps board member, who said that two to three times as many boys go OTD than girls.
UJM: Worldwide, it is 105/100. It may be a bit higher among Frum Jews, as younger fathers are more likely to have boys, and since we are growing very rapidly, a relatively large proportion of Jewish fathers are somewhat young. Among Jews, it may be as high as 106/100. Regardless, that isn’t enough to outweigh the OTD factor, disability factor and early death factor (2 to 3 times as many boys go off the derech compared to girls, according to someone who works it OTD field).
Even in Israel, where the age gap is closer than here in America, Litvish boys still have an advantage over Litvish girls.
Yayin Yashan: The Haredi growth rate in Israel is 4.2%.
It is true that more boys are born than girls, but unfortunately the “extra” boys are either dead (in Israel the extra boys are dead [boys are much more likely to die than girls], disabled [boys are much more likely to be disabled than girls] or off the derech [boys are more likely to go OTD than girls]. So the extra boys you are banking on aren’t marriageable.I have a chavrusa, over the phone, that I learn Tur and Shulchan Aruch with all the Nosei Keilim. We learn that VERY slowly. We learn a couple of times every day for a total of 2 or 3 hours every weekday, and more than that on Sundays. To complete the entire Shulchan Aruch learning at this pace would take maybe 70 to a 100 years.
During the workday, I listen to three online Daf Yomi shiurim (a quick review, a regular daf, and shas illuminated) and halacha shiurim (Rav Osher Weiss, Rav Kleinman, Rav Hershel Schachter, Rav Aryeh Lebowitz, Irgun Shiurei Torah, among others).
On Shabbos, I learn the parsha with Rashi, Mishnah Berurah at a very quick pace (I try to finish it once a year), and random sefarim/journals/topics that I happen to be interested in at the time.
On Sunday, I learn Mishnayos (Zeraim and Taharos only) and Nach.
How do you know that the Derech Eretz of first building a house – which is never mentioned in the Shulchan Aruch – overrides the mitzvah d’oraissa of getting married before twenty? The Chofetz Chaim wrote that those who delay marriage due to lack of money are following their Yetzer Harah.
Even if we,’d agree to consider both parties Gedolei Yisrael, when there was a fight between Rav Yehonasan Eibishitz and Rav Yaakov Emden, “A majority of the Rabbanim in Europe publicly expressed support for Rav Eibishitz in letters that they wrote to him, and in many of the cities excommunications were announced against all who support the machlokes or who maintain in their homes literature which defames Rav Eibishitz. Rav Eibishitz even sent copies of his amulets to many respected kabbalists (including Rav Eliyahu of Vilna), who all confirmed that the content of the amulets is kabbalistically comprehensible and there is no basis for the interpretations of those who are against Rav Eibishitz” (Rav Yonasan Eibishitz, Hebrew Wikipedia).
There is a right and wrong. There is a mitzvah d’oraissa to be moicheh when wrong is taking place. The fact that people will be offended etc. is irrelevant. This isn’t the avaira of supporting machlokes. To the contrary, it is the mitzvah of tochacha.
Why don’t non-Gur Rabbanim speak out against the Gerrer Rebbe? What are they afraid of?
It is a gradual issue. A woman who gets pregnant over 35 has a three times more likely chance of getting yenner machlah in the chest than a woman who gets pregnant at 18. It is OBVIOUSLY a gradual issue, with the risk increasing each additional year (it’s not like a switch which turns on an off the day you turn 35).
There are two elements in the shidduch crisis and they are often conflated.
The first is the overall imbalance, that there are [supposedly] more girls than boys, due to the age-gap (I am 100% sure that age-gap is a factor, but, as I have said before, there are many other factors at play, especially the ameliorating factor that more boys are born than are girls). My ultimate HUNCH is that only a small (2-3%) – though still horrifying – percentage of girls are victims of the age-gap issue (though I have no statistical data to support my hunch).
Then there is a second issue, and though it isn’t as problematic, in a way it is worse because it applies to a very large percentage of girls. If the average girl starts shidduchim at 19 and the average boy start shidduchim at 23, we are starting with a 4-year age gap. Ultimately, however, the average age gap between couples is smaller, say 2 years or 2.5 years. What that means is that an AVERAGE girl is forced to WAIT two ADDITIONAL years over and above the normal dating duration. Obviously, this additional waiting time isn’t uniformly distributed: some girls wait no additional time (i.e., the 19 year old girl who gets married to the 23 year old boy) and some girls wait 4 or more ADDITIONAL years. This is the only way to explain how we start with a 4 year age gap and end up with a two year age gap.
This is a massive problem. First, according to the SDEI CHEMED, delaying a girl against her will even a few months puts her in the “agunah” status. Second, when girls are forced to wait the ADDITIONAL two years, they are in absolute fear, worrying if they will ever get married. Sometimes, this additional wait time means that parents are forced to marry off the younger daughter before the older daughter, and are forced to dance and smile at the bittersweet (or perhaps it is better just to call it “bitter”) event of their younger daughter’s wedding.
Finally, there is a health issue. Without getting into specifics, every additional year that a girl delays her first pregnancy comes at a cost to her health. A woman body wasn’t designed to handle a shidduch crisis. This is a massive problem (google yenner maclah in the chest and in the colon along with “age of first pregnancy”).
Here are some sources I found online regarding the Mishna Berurah relying on Kisvei Yados (I know people call it “Kisvei Yad,” but in Mishnaic Hebrew I think we make both words plural, like Batei Kneisios and Batei Medrashos):
ראה ביאור הלכה סימן לב: “והנה כעת שזכינו לאור של האור זרוע הגדול שנדפס בימינו מצאתי וראיתי”; ביאור הלכה סימן מג ד”ה ואוחזן: “ובספר אור זרוע אשר זכינו מקרוב לאורו”; משנה ברורה סימן כז ס”ק ה: “כן מצאתי בא”ז אשר זכינו מקרוב לאורו”; ביאור הלכה סימן תקטו ד”ה דורון: “אבל עכשיו שזכינו לאורו של או”ז הגדול שממנו מקור דברי המרדכי”.משנה ברורה סימן קסג ס”ק ו: “דגם הר”ח בפירושו על פסחים [שזכינו עתה לאורו] בדף מ”ז כתב בהדיא כן”; ביאור הלכה סימן שיט ד”ה הכפיפה: “הר”ח [שזכינו מקרוב לאורו]”; ביאור הלכה סימן תרכו ד”ה צריך: “והנה כעת זכינו לאורו של רבינו חננאל”; ביאור הלכה סימן תרמח ד”ה מיהו: “ולפי מה שזכינו עתה לאורו של רבינו חננאל שיצא לאור”; שער הציון סימן רמח ס”ק א: “כי ברבנו חננאל שזכינו עתה לאורו כתוב בהדיא”.
ביאור הלכה סימן פח ד”ה וכן: “מצאתי בספר האשכול שזכינו עתה לאורו”.
Regarding the “klal” that we assume an Achron would have changed his mind had he known of the Rishon, see the Maharik quoted in the Hebrew Wikipedia site: Hilchasa Kibasrai.
I don’t think that the Rambam’s letter is from the Geniza (though the Mishnah Berura, unlike the Chazon Ish, does follow kisvei yados). We never assume that a particular Gadol “must” have been aware of the earlier source if he didn’t quote it; otherwise, this klal (i.e., that an Achron who fails to quote an earlier source isn’t followed) would be useless.
The Pele Yoetz, as I have mentioned before, holds that shidduchim requires “a lot” of hishtadlus, even going to another city in order to find a shidduch, and failing to do so can jeopardize one’s shidduch. The Yabia Omer quotes and follows this Pele Yoetz. Even if the Brisker Rav disagreed with the Pele Yoetz, since it is a question of a mitzvah d’oraissa, we must follow the machmirim.
The Brisker Rav is probably following his grandfather’s shitta on bitachon and hishtadlus. However, similar to what I said above, in the Beis Halevi’s lengthy thesis regarding bitachon and hishtadlus, he doesn’t quote the Rambam.
In general, halahca isn’t decided by oral reports of what Gedolim said (see Igros Chazon Ish), especially if didn’t explicitly state that they were expressing their opinion to be accepted “halacha limaaseh.”
Additionally, the general rule is that we follow Rishonim over Achronim. Even those who would follow the Achronim over the Rishonim, that is only if the Achronim are aware of the Rishonim. So if the Brisker Rav wrote: “I am aware that the Rambam held that hishtadlus affects one’s shidduch, but I hold halacha limaaseh that we should not follow the Rambam” it would be one thing. Being that he did not quote the Rambam’s opinion, we have to assume that if the Brisker Rav was aware of the Rambam’s opinion he would have changed his mind regarding this issue.
Ari Mandel of Footsteps told me personally that between 2/3 and 3/4 of his members are men.
ujm: I indeed don’t know the answer to the above questions. I was saying that these are indeed questions which must be explored.
Regarding the obligation of Pru Urvu that only men have, it is actually a machlokes, some arguing that women also have an obligation. Furthermore, the Igras Moshe writes that although each INDIVIDUAL woman doesn’t have an obligation to have children, there is a GENERAL obligation and ratzon hatorah for women in GENERAL to have children (I know this sounds like splitting hairs, but this is what he says). The Torah allowing men to marry multiple wives implies that the Torah prefers that women have a relatively easy time finding a shidduch (Rav Moshe explains that for this reason the Torah permits a sris b’yidei shamayim, so that there shouldn’t be a shidduch crisis by women).
Here are some quotes from secular sources regarding the age gap causing and resulting imbalance (again, this doesn’t necessarily imply that there is a crisis in the Orthodox community):
See, Women of Bangladesh: A Country Profile. United States, UN, 1995, p. 24 (“Bangladeshi women tend to marry men who are five to ten years senior in age, but on account of rapid population growth, the younger cohorts are substantially larger than the older ones resulting in a numerical shortage of eligible bridegrooms . . . parents have difficulties in finding husbands with suitable age gaps for their daughters. These problems have have resulted in delayed marriages and a reduction in the proportions getting married. Another important consequence of the favorable marriage market for men is an increase in divorce, separation and derivation”). See, also, Sautmann, Anja, Partner Search and Demographics: The Marriage Squeeze in India (August 23, 2011) (“When women marry younger than men, growing birth rates and a decline in child mortality lead to a surplus of women in the marriage market . . . to resolve the resulting surplus without women going unmarried, the age gap at marriage must decline”).
The fact that an age-gap + population grown causes a problem for girls has been documented in many societies (India, for example) and is accepted as fact in many academic publications. This isn’t a chiddush.
However, there are many other factors at play: a) What is the age gap in our community? b) How much of an ameliorating effect is the fact that more boys are born than are girls, c) How many “extra” boys die per year?, d) How many of the extra boys suffer from disabilities that render them, to some extent, “unmarriageable”, e) Is there a greater OTD rate among boys than among girls, f) Do more girls become baalei teshuva than do boys?, g) in general, is it more important for a girl to be married than it is for a boy to be married (i.e., do we prefer a boys shidduch crisis over a girls shidduch crisis). Regarding the last question, the Gemara says that women have greater desire to get married than do men.
There is a slight imbalance the other way by the chassidim because slightly more boys are born than girls. As they age, however, the “extra” boys die off (e.g., according to the Israeli census the extra boys are gone by their mid-thirties).
Therefore, imposing an age-gap by chassidim – to ensure that there are an equal number of people ENTERING shidduchim (e.g., 19 year old boys and 18 year old girls) – would result that 35-year-old Almanos and Gerushos would have a harder time finding a shidduch.
yungermanS: The Rambam, who laid out the very principles of our emuna, said that one’s shidduch is based on hishtadlus, not on bashert (See his letter to Rav Ovadiah Hager). He says that every mitzvah requires and is determined by hishtadlus, and getting married is a mitzvah.
Would you be OK with someone who davens that Hashem should send him a succa and teffilin without actually going out and using hishtadlus to obtain those mitzvahs? (See also Pele Yoetz Zivug who says that shidduchim requires “a lot” of hishtadlus and failure to do so may result in one losing his shiddduch).
Maybe it’s spelled Libbi. They are also encouraging boys to start shidduchim at 21. They maintain the website shidduchcrisis.com
Torah B’tahara, if I am spelling it right, is a program which pays Yeshivish bochurim to get married before twenty, in line with the halacha mentioned in Shulchan Aruch. They also pay bochurim to learn the Kuntras Torah B’tahara.
When there was major publicity regarding the age-gap/gender-imbalance, FFB girls realized that they will need to give in on some things. For example, many single girls who otherwise wouldn’t have dreamed of marrying a divorced guy etc. agreed to give it a try.
This is obviously not a real solution, because now the divorced women have a harder time getting remarried.
It also also likely that the age gap was slightly ameliorated thanks to NASI’s or LIBBY’s efforts. Personally I gave preference, and ultimately married, a girl closer to my age due to the publicity about the issue.
There is also a “Torah B’tahara” initiative. But that isn’t attempting to solve the shidduch crisis but rather the “Shulchan Aruch crisis.”
Reputation is only an issue regarding shidduchim and boys usually have the upper hand in shidduchim. I would be curious what the situation is in the Chassidish world.
Obviously, girls from Yeshivish homes prefer boys who are from Yeshivish homes. That doesn’t mean that boys from more-modern homes are suffering from a crisis. It merely means that they should try to marry someone who ALSO comes from a similar background, or should date girls who are a bit older and are therefore forced to settle. Why should a girl settle when she is still in her young twenties? Does family background mean nothing? Does the fact that you might flip back mean nothing? Does the fact that you were subjected to less-than-optimally-kosher food for decades mean nothing? Does the fact that many flip-outs display a certain rebelliousness or emotional instability mean nothing (I’m very happy that you flipped out, but a certain percentage of them flipped-out due to emotional instabilities)? They all mean a lot, and they scare off many girls, who are at a point in their lives who aren’t willing to settle yet. I mean, she is certainly entitled to do so, but I don’t see the reason to pressure her to do so or to blame her for not willing to do so at this early stage of the game.
There are issues. Regarding the shidduch crisis, all the Gedolim you mentioned weren’t aware of the crisis (Rav Shmuel was, but at a late stage in his life).
Regarding the halacha side of things, again, perhaps they believed that their boys weren’t yitzrom misgaber aleihem, and, at that time, maybe there was a real fear of insufficient food if you learned full time (Rav Chaim Epstein said, if not for Section 8, the whole kollel system would have had no chance of developing). Or it could be that they were against delay, but felt that they would anyhow be ignored (boys wanted to finish college before thinking about marriage, regardless of what their Rebbi told them). Or it could be that yes, even these great Gedolim like Rav Yaakov etc., as great as they were, had a little bias and that clouded their thinking on the topic (even an Amora, chazal tell us, must be ignored if they had bias, so we have to be OPEN to the possibility that they had bias regarding the halacha of getting married young [regarding the shidduch crisis, it wasn’t relevant then, as I said]). It is well know that the two Gedolim who were on fire about starting young were the Chazon Ish and the Steipler. This isn’t an accident. There is a reason for this. They were free from bias, because they weren’t Roshei Yeshiva. But again, I don’t need to say this controversial idea (not that I was mechadesh it chalilah, the Rosh Kollel Chazon Ish said so very strongly, that due to this bias, the boys are delayed), because all of these Gedolim you mentioned never once expressly hinted to the idea that nowadays that there is a mitzvah d’oraisa which no longer applies (Rav Mosh fought Conservative Judaism which such fever, to accuse him of having conservative deios that the Shulchan Aruch no longer applies is a shocking bizui of this Adom Gadol). Since they didn’t say so, we have no choice but to guesstimate what they believed, or base our decision on the fact that they weren’t moicheh. But we can’t base halacha on that (Bava Basra 130b). If they felt it didn’t apply, they would have said so.
I know of a Rosh Yeshiva (he spoke at the recent siyum hashas) who went to Rav Moshe ahls bochur (I admit that I don’t know the details of how old the boy was) and Rav Moshe told him, “If your yeitzer is misgaber on you, it is assur for you to delay.”
You are putting words in my mouth. I have no disdain for ANY Gedolim, chalilah.
I once gave ride to a random individual. He is a close Talmid to one of the members of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah of America. His Rebbi asked this Talmid for his opinion, “Do you think if I would have spoken out, demanding that boys start shidduchim young, the boys would have listened to me?” The Talmid was caught off guard by the question, and wasn’t sure how to answer. He meekly responded, in an attempt not to offend or criticize his Rebbi, “Neh, I guess not.”
Even since then this Talmid was mortified by this response. The Talmid told me, “I should have had the courage to tell my Rebbi the truth, that of course the Rebbi has the power AND OBLIGATION to stop the crisis, that he had to demand that boys MUST start shidduchim at a younger age.”
One thing we see from this story is that to infer what Gedolim hold based on the fact that they didn’t speak out isn’t reliable. Here, is one example of a Gadol who, for some reason, assumes that the Bochurim will anyhow ignore him.
I may be “insane.” I may be “brazen.” But I am not the topic of conversation. Let’s get back to the issues.
The fact is that it is assur to rely on the Psak of anyone who has any personal interest (even indirect) Even an Amora who had a personal interest was ignored. Once there are family businesses, we are dealing with businessmen. That is what halacha tells; there is nothing brazen about this claim. There is no Teshuva defending the practice. To the contrary, the major Poskim have said that it is assur to listen to anyone who advises you to delay. This is all regarding the basic halacha of getting married before 20, which isn’t merely a recommendation: each DAY after 19 is an additional bittul mitzvahs aseh (See the Chofetz Chaim’s Nidchei Yisrael chapter 25), just like not eating matzah on the night of Pesach. The only difference is that chazal tell us that if you don’t try to get married before 20 you are chayuv misa. Many, many sefarim quote this chazal. None of them say that chazal are exaggerating. The first to say a word against this chazal in the past 2000 years are the people who responded on this blog.
Regarding the Aguna-crisis, Rav Gershon Edelstein, Rav Aharon Leib and Rav Chaim wrote a sharply-worded, blistering letter regarding those businessmen. You can find the letter online. If you don’t like the contents of that letter, take it up with this Gedolim who a) were born in Europe, b) have no bias, c) are real Gedolim (not merely occupiers of prestigious positions).
When a Posek writes a Teshuva – not a Psak, a Teshuva – he is REQUIRED to provide justification for his Psak. It also allows us to ascertain whether the Posek was aware of the sugya and all the shitos. This is certainly true in a case where we are being told that reform Judaism is right, that the Shulchan Aruch needs to be updated or otherwise ignored. Furthermore, when we have a written Psak we are able to respond to and correct that psak.
Until we have justification to ignore the Shulchan Aruch, we dare not ignore it. This is especially true whenany of these business leaders aren’t aware of the sief in Shulchan Aruch (I can say this based on conversations I’ve had with them) they aren’t aware of the Chida who says that those who claim that immaturity is a hetter to delay are jeopardizing their Olam haba. They are also unaware that many boys are yitzrom misgaber aleihem.
But even if these balleibatim did know all the facts, we can’t rely on them, because the Rema writes that someone with bias is untrustworthy in Psak.
I just read the earlier texts. Shaving is a machlokes Haposkim as is whether one could carry in the Borough Park Eruv. You could say that the meikilim are mistaken, that they are being too lienient, but you can’t call them REFORM, because they aren’t IGNORING Shas u’poskim. I don’t see how that’s relevant to whether one could ignore a UNANIMOUSLY-ACCEPTED chiyuv d’oraisa. Based on your logic that we let everything slide, even Reform Jews should be OK in your book, because, heck, we also shave etc.
Before calling the age-gap reality a “hoax,” please contact the economists who have written extensively regarding the marriage-squeeze which is caused by an age-gap and population growth, which is common in South Asa. Maybe you can explain to them why their theories are wrong and a hoax. Tell them that their studies are really based on some yungerman living in Queens who is half their age.
In response to one claiming that there is a chinuch crisis, that may be true, that may be an exacerbating factor – that more girls want learning boys than there are learning boys. But that doesn’t mean that the age-gap imbalance is not ALSO a factor: and so we are required to resolve it.
Now, personally, I don’t think that there is a chinuch crisis. True, it is POSSIBLE that INITIALLY too many girls demand a learning guy. But if that were true, those girls who are willing to date working guys should have a very easy time. And working guys should have hardly any dates. Empirically, that it not true.
Furthermore, even if it was true – even if too many girls are limiting themselves to learning guys – that usually fizzles out after a few years. Almost every yeshivish girl, by the time she is 25, and certainly by the time she is 30, is more than willing to date a non-learning boy. So the chinuch crisis problem which you refer two should, at worst, merely delay girls a could of years. But how does it explain why there are so many single girls in their upper-thirties and forties?
Ultimately, those who point to when Gedolim got married are engaging in speculation. These speculators don’t know when the Gedolim started to look, and aren’t willing to consider the fact the Shulchan Aruch’s hetter clearly applies to them . Puk Chazi is fine if you want to be machria in a machlokes, not when you want to uproot a clear, unanimously-accepted chiyuv d’oraissa. Please quote me ONE Teshuva which says that we could ignore the Shulchan Aruch because some Gedolim got married later. I am asking for ONE. Can you provide it, or not? I can provide you multiple MAJOR POSKIM who say that if a business leader tells someone to delay marriage, it is ASSUR to listen to him.
The Poskim are very clear what is happening here. They explain that certain business leaders had a lot to gain from delaying boys. Indeed, the Poksim notify us that these business leaders are committing an “avoin plili” are “asid leetain ess hadin” and they are “reshaim.” The Poskim understand that there is really no justification for this, notwithstanding when particular Gedolim happened to have ultimately gotten married.
It is very easy to claim that someone is suffering from mental illness. It is certainly easier than studying, considering and debating the various chazals which take delaying Pru Urvu extremely seriously. I hope you are right, but I am afraid (and I’m perplexed why you aren’t) you are wrong.
You apparently don’t know about poverty in Russia to claim that sufficient food wasn’t a real concern. We can’t uproot what Chazal and the Shulchan Aruch tell us based on speculation regarding when Gedolim ultimately found their shidduch. This is especially true in a situation where there were hardly any from girls to marry. Are you saying Chazal were wrong.
No. Your Rav is not chayiv misa because he’s a shogeg. You, at this point, are no longer a shogeg so if you delay or allow your children to delay, you would be chayiv misa, unlike your Rav and your friends who are, as I said shogegim.
It is irelevant when a particular Gadol got married. The Shulchan Aruch itself allows one to delay: assuming one doesn’t have money for food and is not yitzro misgaber alav. So I’m not sure what your point is.
I spoke to Ostrov and asked him to explain his position to me and he was apparently unaware that age-gap + population-growth= Agunos exists throughout the world and is mentioned by academics (E.g., Prof. Sautmann of Brown University). He admitted to me that he’s not a math person, by which he meant that he really is in no position to understand or render and opinion on the crisis.
Yes, anyone who delays past nineteen unless he can fit into the Shulchan Aruch’s hetter is chayiv misa. He also won’t have techias hameisim.
Regarding having emunah, that’s fine. But this problem was caused by our bechira and by greedy people who have lucrative family businesses which make them reluctant to stop it.
No American Gadol is on the level of Rav Elyashiv, Rav CChaim Kanievsky, Rav Shmuel Aurbach or Rav Aharon Leib, so it’s irrelevant what Americans hold. The Novominsker Rebbe publicly said that we should shudder at arguing with Rav Chaim. I challenge you to please find me one Rav who paskins issue vheter who wrote that a boy who is yitzro misgaber alav or has no fear of insufficient food is allowed to delay, who says that Chazal and the Shulchan Aruch were mistaken when they held that once it’s yitzro misgaber alav you may not delay.
The word Aguna for a girl who is having trouble finding a shidduch is found in Kidushin Daf 41 in Tosafos and Midrash Rabbah Achrei Mos. Agav, the Midrash says that Nadav and Avihu died for making Agunos.
Fine, you guys disagree with Chazal. You think that they when they said that you are chiyuv misa if you delay past 19 they were being old-fashioned. You also believe immaturity is hetter to delay (unlike the Chazon Ish, Rav Aharon Leib Steinman and the Chida [the Chida adds “don’t say such kulos regarding something that your Olam Haba depends on).
You also believe that you are allowed to delay past 19 for financial reasons (unlike the Chofetz Chaim [Sefer Nidchei Yisrael, ch. 25], Rabbi Chaim Berlin [Even Haezer, siman 3], Rav Chaim Palachi [Tochachas Chaim], Rav Hillel Kalimaeir [Sefer Eis Laasos]). You also believe that your son learning in Yeshiva somehow makes him more financially secure. I still must ask you: If you would know that the old way for YOUR OWN DAUGHTER TO EVER GET MARRIED would be for your son to start young, would you still delay your son. Or would you realize that your initial assumption — that your son isn’t “ready” — is based on no evidence and isn’t worth your daughter remaining an Aguna.
Yet, when it comes to someone else’s daughter you are quite eager to posit any possible boich sevara to jeopardize her chances from ever getting married.
Now, regarding the claim that we are scaring bnos yisrael, that is incorrect for two reasons. First, that is akin to claiming that we shouldn’t advertise against smoking or obesity because we are scaring people. Second – and this is the essential point – girls aren’t scared by the numbers. They are scared by the fact that their phones are silent. WE ARE MERELY PROVIDING AN EXPLANATION FOR WHY THAT’S THE CASE! True, there are some girls – i.e., daughters of Roshei Yeshiva – whose have plenty of names. This information obviously doesn’t scare them, because the fact is that they are getting plenty of names, so they realize that they are the exception to the rule.
Listen, we all know many single women in their forties. We all know many of them. We knew this for a very long time, way before Libbi. This info is was always very frightening to all. Thanks to Libbi, we at least know why that happened. AND WE KNOW HOW WE CAN AND MUST RESOLVE IT.
The problem is that there are too FEW posts regarding the shidduch crisis. We have set up a system where a terrifying number of Bnos Yisrael are nearing 40 v’ein potzeh peh umitzaftzeif, except a few yechidim, such as Libbi.
What percentage of Neilah Drashos in our shuls and yeshivos addressed this crisis? I’d say it’s close to zero. Why is that?
Why are people setting up tehillim groups to help their daughters get married but at the same time they are delaying their own sons (or sending their sons to yeshivos that encourage or force delay) from getting married?
How can you daven to Hashem, “Please Hashem help my daughter get married,” while preventing other girls from getting married?
I repeat my challenge: What other chiyuvei d’oraisa are we willing to disregard because we lack maturity?
I you call any shadchanim in the Litvish and Lubavitcher communities they will tell you that there is a shortage if boys, but in the chassidish world, there is no shortage of boys. The reason for this is obvious to anyone who is open to evidence.
I have spoken to two Roshei Yeshiva but they hung up on me. They are invited to write a Teshuva showing why they are entitled to disagree with Chazal as well as all the Poskim.
You claim that the majority of boys aren’t ready at 21. What other halachos in Shulchan Aruch are you willing to give up because the person isn’t ready? In fact, this – getting married before 20 – is the last halacha to be giving up. We are talking about a daily chiyuv d’oraisa (see, Nidchei Yisrael, ch. 25), which carries a chiyuv misa when ignored (see Medrashi Koheles Parasach 3), that is punished by possibly losing the right to get up for techias hameisim. The fact that Gedolim got married later is irrelevant both because they may had tried to get married younger, or because they fit into the Rambam’s hetter of delaying marriage which requires a) that you be a masmid (see, Kitzur Shulchan Aruch), b) that you will be “TAMID” bogged down with earning money to get “FOOD” for your family if you’d get married young (Chochmas Adam), and c) you don’t have hirhurie isha.
You then claim that some Roshei Yeshiva don’t agree with this.If they are Orthodox Roshei Yeshiva, they surely agree with the Shulchan Aruch, unless they never heard of that particular halacha, which is possible since they aren’t poskim. But even if they were Poskim, the halacha says that any Posek who has a personal bias shouldn’t be relied on (Rema Y.D. 242:36). Rav Yudel Shapira, Rosh Kollel Chazon Ish (when Rav Chaim Kanievsky had to write on a hard siman, he’d let Rav Yudel read it to make sure that there are no mistakes), said that Roshei Yeshiva who tell boys to delay are subject to negius (Daas Yehuda, p. 242).
Are you claiming that there is no shidduch crisis? Call shadchaim and ask them if they have a much harder time getting a yes from a boy than from a girl and then respond.