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“what is the ratio between men in tight fitting expensive clothes to the womens tznius issues?”
When it comes to women and “tsnius issues” across all communities and neighborhoods, the problem is essentially the same. the complaints center around how they are dressed. too short, too tight, to bright, to loud, but, always about dress.
When it comes to men though, it cuts across many areas and often different communities are plagued by just one or two. In some places it may be tight fitting expensive clothes, while in others it may be the expensive flashy tricked out suv or crossover. in others it may drinking and in others it may be technology (the flashy smartphone or smartwatch). in others it might be the “chilling” at mohecan sun and others the loud and sometimes inappropriate thursday night “chulent” get togethers (too often accompanied by several rounds of “kvitlach”where hundreds of dollars are won and lost weekly). In others it is the inappropriate drinking and gorging at kiddushim and simchos. So, if one would look at the ration of men who are inappropriate at a kiddush to women who dress inappropriately, or men who drive ridiculously expensive tricked out vehicles to the women who dress inappropriately (and this is true of all categories), sure the ration is much smaller. However, if you take all those vices together and compare ratios……
“Educating about tznius”
I think this attitude is the problem . I dont think we should be educating about tzniyus, we should be focused on inculcating yoras shamayim into the next generation as well as giving over the”rules” hashem wants us to follow. someone with yiras shamayim will follow the rules. someone without yiras shamayim will look to circumvent them.
Is “mesaye liovrei averia” an issue where the person can easily get what they need from the next person?
parent vs school? that is the problem. parents and schools should work together, towards the same goal.
parents should also remember, the mitzvah of chinuch is on them, not the school.
“I think it’s inappropriate”
Great, dont send your daughters to this school.
Those who do, either feel it is appropriate, or dont feel it is enough of an issue to make a big deal out of it.
Any parent who thinks it is inappropriate and continues to send their daughter to this school is a fool and if they speak out against it undermines their daughters chinuch (how much respect would you have for your own teachers if your parents badmouthed their decisions).
I’ve been to simchos where my insides were thumping involuntarily to the beat of the music.
“I was merely explaining the “jump” between public area–public restroom”
Thats great, but, the implied attribution to me (not by you) is what I took issue with.
“the restroom is often the only alternative to a public area.”
So, use the public area and not the restroom. Not everything in the public area has to be done “publicly”. Or do you disagree with this statement “If a woman holds a baby in a baby carrier and nurses the baby while wearing a cape or nursing cover, the only way to tell if the woman is nursing the baby is if you stare”.
” Let her baby starve for the entire flight?”
To quote Felix Ungar, never assume, when you do, you make a “donkey” out of u and me. You are putting words in my mouth and then questioning them.
“Have you ever tried nursing a baby in a public restroom?”
How did you make the leap from public area to public restroom?
“I’m really only interested in what Torah sources say.”
So, unless your Rav is reading this thread, you came to the wrong place for an answer.
Pardon me for being crass.. I’m sure there is plenty of medical literature about the dangers of holding oneself back from reliving themselves, yet, noone will advocate doing so in the middle of the mall or in front of others in a restaurant. The discussion is not, should a woman be allowed to nurse in public areas, of course she should, the only discussion is, should government legislate that they be properly covered while doing so.
You cant give birth while jogging, or working out in the gym either, so I guess having a family gets in the way of a healthy lifestyle too.
“Do you focus more of your energies on stopping the drug dealers or on stopping their customers?”
So, chinuch and yiras shamayim are meaningless? Go after Ping Mobile, the yungerleit will suddenly move on to the next yetzer hara? Besides, that wasnt my point, but, you are good at avoiding the point and moving the discussion elsewhere.
” An honest parallel would be do you focus your energies on the pharmacies or the addicts. ”
Or the abusers.
Its easy to go after the store. Why dont they go after the members of the chassidus who walk in there in the 1st place to purchase such phones?
This is also not a flowery phrase.
הוי לי לאנתו כדת משה וישראל ואנא אפלח ואוקיר ואיזון ואפרנס יתיכי ליכי כהלכות גוברין יהודאין דפלחין ומוקרין וזנין ומפרנסין לנשיהון
That some women are mochel this obligation, and agree to shoulder the burden themselves so their husband can stay in the beis medrash says volumes about those women. They should be praised, not made to feel guilty if they takes steps to properly shoulder the burden they accepted.
“There is a culture of putting careers in the place of children. ”
Sure there is. Just not among the females under discussion here. The females under discussion here would like very much for their husbands to stay in the beis medrash and out of necessity to feed and clothe their husband and children leave the safety of their home and enter the workforce.
“he was allowed to continue dating her”
sure, but, he could not start with someone else.
“I also do not agree that when someone is in EY for two or three years and then come back and go to BMG that they have to be in the “freezer”. ”
Perhaps you would if you knew what things were like in the 80s and early 90s. My chevra used to refer to BMG as the worlds largest shteeble.
“Since the “ol parnassah” will fall on the girls…”
I’d like to add, or her parents, or a combination of the 2, it is prudent for the girl, or her parents to make sure there is an ability to shoulder this “ol”. This is the reality. There is only so much an uneducated, untrained person will make, and often it is not enough to support themselves, let alone a spouse and several children. there are also only so many jobs available for uneducated, untrained people. There is only so much demand in the job market for a 22 year old who can rattle off every Ramban in the 3rd perek of Sefer Melachim, and the market is flooded with such girls.
Appropriate to the time of year…. Simana milsa hi. Will the same people scoff at those who dip Apple in honey and eat the other simanim? Will they out it down as some form of old superstition?
Leitzanus is easy and requires no effort. Stopping to listen and understand the other side requires patience and time. Its way easier to be a leitz (talking from experience). Its not the right way.
Who says “fallen out of use” is necessarily a good thing? Perhaps we’ve lost a certain sensitivity that was a positive attribute.
“Make a bracha” was the common phrase for have something to eat. Now its, have a bite. Is that a good thing that the focus had shifted from ruchniyus to gashmiyus?
for example, the term “ereh binechama” used in the gemara, when in fact the oppostie is meant.
the gemara uses euphamisms all the time instead of mentioning bad things.
It has been a while since I have seen a copy (can get it at hebrewbooks.org) , but R’ Menashe ben Israel wrote Mikveh Yisrael in approximately 1650. He discusses the aseres hashvatim and if they would be various peoples discovered in the “new world”. I believe there is a chapter devoted to the Inca of Peru. I dont remember his conclusions. He was the Sephardic (I dont think there were many ashkenazim in the country at the time at the time) Chief Rabbi of Holland I believe. The dutch, and many of its Jews were huge explorers of the new world, settling many areas and establishing trade, to the point that Holland was a “major player” in the new world at the time. In the sefer, he records that a jewish captain returning from the new world told him that he was in what is now southern georgia (I believe in the sefer they name the mountain range which is in the southern appelaichan mountians), he and his assistant, also jewish, met with natives and they tried to converse with them in all languages that they knew, with no luck. When the captain turned to his assistant and spoke to him in hebrew, the native replied to him and then proceeded to recite Shma Yisroel….
That is the story as it is recorded. He discusses this and other stories he heard, or were told to him and tries to determine, based on what we know from chazal if they could be from the aseres hashvatim.He addressed this because “messianic fever” was very high. The expulsion from Spain was just more than 150 years earlier, the inquisition was in full force, the ashkenazic jews just suffered through tach vtat and yidden were looking for any sign that moshiach was on the way. the native americans and the tales of the lost shevatim being found were fueling hopes that moshiach was right around the corner as kibbutz galios was starting (hence the title, Mikveh Yisroel). I dont remember his conclusions about the Incas or othe rindian tribes. if anyone wants to do us a favor and read it and report back, thank you in advance.
“the bigger problem was slavery. And a statue memorializing a soldier who fought to defend that state is an abomination.”
So, when does the wrecking ball take aim at the Jefferson Memorial. He was a slaveowner too.
Benedict Arnold was a traitor. He has a plaque at West Point though (all general, or major general, maybe its both, are honored with a plaque for their service) but, it doesnt have his name on it. the tour book explained that they cant change history, he was a major general, and a darn good one for the continental army, but as a traitor he disgraced the uniform, so they dont write his name. the civil war existed, general lee was a real person, not just a car driven by a couple of redneck brothers in hazzard county.
anyone want to start a petition that the Titus Arch be taken down since it commemorates someone who, if josephus is to be believed murdered 1.1 million jews and took another 97,000 into slavery (even if 10% of those numbers are correct, that wouldnt make him a good guy).
This really belongs in the rants section but I’ll put it here. I think some of those who peddle cures, segulos and yeshuos for a few dollars call into this category.
As long as the bedroom and bathroom have doors that cloae, I’m good.
If her brothers aren’t baalei middos who is marrying her brothers? 😕
Seems “the famous teshuva of Reb Moshe z’l” (i’m not familiar with it or what it says, only what someone here claims it says) contradicts Reb Joseph Shlita.
Daven. Things worked out just fine for rivka imenu. Rochel and Leah too.
Whose momma?
According to “Master of the Mesorah, the Rishonim”, Rashi although born in France, learned in Germany under his illustrious Rabbeim before returning to France. He likely was fluent in whatever language the Jews there spoke. If Yiddish was the “street language” for all Jews though (and none made it to eastern europe yet, the ashkenazi yidden lived in ashkenaz, and west into france not poland, hungary or galicia), why did Rashi use old French words when trying to explain something and not Yiddish, the hamon am that his pirush was for, would have understood what he meant.
“APY, you’re practically a Chosid.”
If fluency in yiddish is the determining factor, I should go get myself measured for a streimel.
I’m proud to say I understand yiddish. In fact, the other day in Williamsburg, I needed directions and my fluency in yiddish enabled to understand the given directions, “gei drei blocks un mach a right far tvei mur blocks”.
I learned chumash in a litvishe cheder in brooklyn almost 40 years ago. we translated the chumash into yidish and english. the yiddish was because, it was yiddish and the mechanchim felt we should be somewhat familiar with the language, and the english was so we would understand the chumash. I dont think this “the problem” the OP makes it out to be, then again, he seems to have problems with just about everything in the world of chinuch today. 40 years later this same yeshiva translates chumash into english and yiddish for the same reasons (they stop with the yiddish at an earlier grade now).
Is this the month of bash the chinuch system?
“men drawing attention to themselves or even acting inappropriately does not cause others to sin. ”
This is false. There is a multimillion dollar industry that exists that proves this wrong.
street attire whether appropriate or not, is not proper courtroom attire. the mothers decision to dress the way she did, and to allow her daughter to dress that way too for a court proceeding, is extremely poor judgement, assuming the mother used judgement at all (which if she didnt is even more a reason not to aware custody to her) . on top of all other paperwork and info the judge had about the case, the judge, imo, was well within her rights to to what she did.
“The shulchan aruch is not for goyim.”
OTD kids are not goyim either. Isnt this what the thread is about?
Yeshivas are not rehab centers, nor should they try to be.
On them, nothing.
syag. I didnt intend to write that the specific case blamed all societies ills on yeshivas. If it came out that way it is because I was careless. Of course, I apologize to them and to everyone else.
I DID intend to write that they appear to be blaming their specific case on the school system, and I do think they are being reckless with that claim. I make this statement after reading their letters on ywn and elsewhere and watching the interviews they have done. Are the schools she attended PART of the problem? Likely. Were they the ONLY part of the problem, likely not.
“You shouldn’t get to tell other people what to do”
That is what the shulchan aruch is for. There is a famous teshuva from rav moshe about recreational drug use that was written in the 60s or 70s. What he wrote (or other rabbonim wrote or write) is what we should do. THEY have every “right” to tell us what to do.
The elephant in the room is.
Is it hypothetical, or are we making excuses. That is something that each person must answer for themselves, and ultimately will be held accountable for.
People turn to drugs as a means to fill something they are missing in their life. Perhaps to temper pain that they feel. Perhaps because someone told them it is the cure all to all their misery. Whatever the reason, that is a result of a chain of events that happened prior to that. The recent case being publicised seems to lay the blame for all that happened prior to the addiction squarely on the school system. while it may not be perfect, and they do have flaws that need to be addressed, they are not the “bad guys” who should be blamed for all societies ills. there is a show that investigates airplane, train and other disasters (not natural), their opening line (to paraphrase) is that a disaster is the culimination of a series of events. Investigating the entire series of events, one can learn where the weak points and failures are and how to correct them so that it wont happen again. Simply blaming “boeing” for the plane crash or “the yeshiva administrator” for a drug overdose is careless, and reckless.
I suspect tight/see through clothing can be a combination of many factors including:
. Deliberate decision to wear tight or transparent clothing
. Poorly manufactured (cheap) clothing that is “threadbare” even when new
. One gains weight and is not at the point where they wish to purchase new clothing, or perhaps can not
. Awareness or lack of it (it is possible someone who gained weight or clothes shrunk in dryer is not aware of what they look like from behind)In general, it is never a good idea to discuss the way your neighbors husband, wife, son or daughter dresses. That is best left to their husband, wife,father or mother. You can speak with their Rav or Rebbetzin to discuss it with them if you believe it needs to be discussed.
Where is the troll who started this thread?
Perhaps we dont know all the facts with the guy “saved” from the WTC. Perhaps he was on the 2nd floor when the plane hit instead of his office on the upper floors and was able to evacuate. Was his being on the 2nd floor miraculous or hashgacha pratis? Perhaps that is what the Rav was talking to him about and it is not relevent to the story here.