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Whatever the revenue stream of the shul, I still think its wrong to buy and sell kibbudim. I think it is perfectly OK for shuls to offer people the ability to buy a mitzvah. I’m not disagreeing with the practice, just the semantics of what it is called. It just grates my ears when I hear someone say “we bought or sold a kibbud”. The mechaber tells us that “mefarsimei osei mitzvah”, not “lokchei kavod”.
Never discussed with anyone. Growing up, and today in my own home, we put a tablecloth on the table because it looks nice, likovod yom tov. Its the same reason we vacuum the carpet, clean up the toys and generally straighten up the house before yom tov (succos included). Does the Pri Migadim or Chazon Ish discuss cleaning the rest of the house? Shouldnt the same logic be applied to the entire house?
About 30 years ago, when my father and I were looking into a mesivta, we were told about one in particular, “the guys in this yeshiva are so “greasy” (is that term used anymore?) they dont take off their hat and jacket, even in the bathroom. I thought it was weird then, and I still think it is weird that one would mow his lawn wearing his hat and jacket. I’m not sure what the guys in this mesivta do in 2010.
Mexipal. Wouldn’t it be easier to just prominently display the receipt?
Just curious. When did “maftir yona” become THE aliya of the year?
Psach lanu shaar….so now those words are diected towards mr psicha purchaser and not the ribbono she’ll olam?
Maftir yona. So, your selling shlish, not maftir yona. It happens to come along for the ride.
I agree with what Oomis wrote, but probably not for the same reason that she is thinking. One shouldnt think they are buying a kibbud. You can’t buy kavod. If that’s your intention, how sad. Same with the shul. You can’t sell kavod. You can “buy” a mitzvah. The shul is offering people the opportunity to do a mitzvah with their money. Oomis, one fact in life that may or may not be fair is that some people have more money than others.
Anyone care to answer what the signifigance of maftir yona and psicha neilah is? Why is it any more a kibbud than maftir by shachris? Why is psicha neilah any more a kibbus than psicha for avinu malkeinu?
What exactly is the segula for psicha neila, maftir yona (aren’t you lihalacha allowed to give maftir to a katan?) and some of the other things people outbid each other for? I’ve davened in a yeshiva (the yeshiva has changed over the years) minyan almost my whole life and I’ve almost never experienced selling aliyos and other kibudim. Even now that I daven in an “alumni” minyan that tries to mimic the way things are done in the yeshiva we still don’t sell aliyos.
Looks like “how much did kibbudim go for” has become the adult equivilant to ‘when did you finish your sedorim”.
By us all kibbudim are given out by the Rav and the “commitee” as a way to say yasher koach to all those who help out the minyan during the year.
As always, it was given to the gabbai who after the Rav is the main cog in the minyan.
As a married frum man I noticed that so far nobody has written “married women dress to look good for their husband”. I think my ego has just come down a few notches 🙂
“Clearly we are going to agree to disagree on this issue.”
Which myth, exactly, was cleared up? 🙂
Gmar Chasima Tova.
We asked in Selichos this morning that the ribbono shel olam silence the prosecutor and close up his mouth.
As a man I won’t make even a half hearted attempt at trying to answer how, what or why a woman might dress the way she does.
I did want to comment on 2 points that were raised.
. The rules, the dos and don’t are repeatedly stressed, but the beauty of it is not. Put another way, I think the person was saying, if someone understands what it means to be a bas yisroel, a bas melech, proper dress wouldn’t be an issue. I think there is great merit to this line of reasoning. It reminds me very much of the Slabodka approach to mussar, “gadlus ha’adam. One of the first things written about Rav Ezrachi Shlita (one of todays leading “slabodka” talmidim) is how he carries himself and how he presents himself including his apperance. If the gadlus ha’adam approach could somehow be incorporated into chinuch habanos generally and tznius specifically we may not be having this discussion.
.This sentence, I think, is extremely important. “What inspires me and makes the biggest impression on me is when people tell me what the outside world thinks of you when they see you dressed tzniusly. How special they think you are…”. This is an affirmation (not that he needs it) of what the sefer hachinuch writes in mitzvah tes zayin, “adam nifal kifi peulaso”. In short you keep positively reinforcing an idea and a person will strive to that praise. The chinuch turns the saying “confidence breeds success” on its head. He seems to be saying “success breeds confidence”. Its difficult to summarize a long chinuch, its worthwhile to see what he says in his own words. The sentence I quoted affirms this idea. The greatest inspiration to be a tzanua she wrote, is hearing how speacial other people thought she was. And as the chinuch himself writes “mitoch chelo lishma, bah lishma”. (Never did I ever think I would quote a chinuch explaining the lav not to break bones of the korban pesach in the same sentence as tznius).
A gmar chasima tova to all.
“they sell them”
Where? 🙂
“someone who believes in the Torah and calls themselves orthodox but wears short skirts isn’t frum.”
If there is ANYTHING that we should leave to Rabbonim is the right to say that someone is not “frum”. (the word frum. Where does it come from? Is it yiddish? what does it mean literally.)
Do you really believe that girls/women from torahdik homes (I’ll even expand the question to non jewish girls and women )get dressed in the morning and think about how to attract men? If you do, there is nothing I can say or do to change your mind nor do I have the desire to change your mind.
“but eats treif frum?”
Can you clarify?
“Any woman who looks in the mirror after getting dressed knows exactly what she is thinking and what she wants others to think of her.”
I asked my wife if this is true. I gave her the context of this quote. Her response. “I cant speak for other women, but the last thing on my mind is – hey guys, check me out”.
smartcookie. on the small chance that you were serious i checked drugstore.com they dont carry them. any other suggestions? 🙂
If you wouldnt want someone to say it about you there is probably something negative involved, therefore, dont say it about someone else and dont listen to someone else say it either.
Oomis. Not a single suggested reason was meant to be taken seriously. Perhaps I should use a symbol such as 🙂 to indicate humor (is there a symbol for sarcasim yet?)
This just showed in my inbox from the Agudas Comission on Torah Projects. From the title of the teleconference, I am willing to bet Tznius will be part of the discussion.
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We are pleased to invite all women to a special Pre – Yom Tov telephone conference to be held this coming Tuesday evening, September 21, 2010 at 9:30 PM. This teleconference on the topic of “Making Hashem Proud of us Inside and Out,” will be addressed by Mrs. Chani Juravel, a noted mechaneches and therapist.
To join the teleconference please call 712-432-1001, and enter access code: 495236131#.
In addition to her talk, Mrs. Juravel will be answering questions submitted in advance from the public. Please email your questions for consideration to [email protected] before 5:00 PM, Monday, September 20th.
Best wishes for a Gmar Chasima Tova.
In response to Aries (and anyone else who cares):
“A father asking Hashem to kill his own child because she is too pretty?”
It just so happens that she was very pretty (the gemara stresses that), but the way the maharsha understands his reaction she could have looked like a llama and he would have done the same.
“Please, didn’t he have enough faith and trust in Hashem that He made her that way for a reason?”
He had plenty faith in hashem. See the gemara 2 lines up how he dealt with his son.
“Couldn’t he have built a bigger fence or one that was not see through?”
He had a mighty fine fence. The way Rashi learns the gemara, the fellow bored a hole into the fence so that he could peek through. He caught the peeping tom in the act.
Regarding the “neighbor”. The gemara doesnt say who he was, but he may have been one of his talmidim, the way he addresses him. There MUST be more to the story than the gemara tells us. Does it sound logical to ask a father, I wont be zoche to marry your daughter, let me instead gaze at her beauty and enjoy myself that way.
“Hashem didn’t kill the child because HE made her too pretty. If it is true, he killed the child to punish the father for even thinking and asking for such an horrendous bakasha.”
According to the girsa in our gemara, it is not clear, at all, if she died. the bach has a girsa (he adds one or two words to our text) that she did in fact die.
It should be pointed out, that the Maharsha states that Rav Yosi bar Avin was absolutely positive that Rav Yosi bar (I forget bar who – but the father was also a Rav Yosi) was wrong. His proof? the way avraham Avinu handled the situation with Sarah 9thats all he says, we need to understand the maharsha too).
Also left unanswered is, what was the father thinking with this approach and where does it come from. Also, Rav Yosi bar Avin told Rav Ashi this (and another story recorded about his son) is the reason he left as a talmid and came to learn by Rav Ashi. We dont see that Rav Ashi responded positively, or negatively, although Rav Ashi DID choose to record this story in shas for all generations to learn and understand, so we definitely must try and understand, both sides.
I dont have access to the Maharal on aggados. It is probably something he would go through. the Ben Ish Chai probably explains this gemara too. For now, this is one of those gemaras that you know you cant get bogged down on as you try and finish the massechta, but you definitely want to get back to.
A nice set of Ramban. Very practical. For the next 5 years, she will remember you every day as she has to memorize page after page in high school and seminary.
Any suggestions for those of us who cant go without our caffeine intake and avoid those headaches? Ive been trying to ween myself off of coffee all week I hope by the time the fast starts i’ll be good to go. Any other suggestions? Perhaps someone knows of a food loaded with slow release caffeine? Do they make caffeine patches?
I’m not arguing with the chazon ish, just trying to understand his svara (the way the chazon ish is quoted is “I am convinced…”). Didn’t beis din give makas mardus to those who they felt were out of line, so to speak?
Context is everything.
In defense of oomis. The gemara was grossly misrepresented here the way it was brought up.
“Dont you know by now that money is everything to people today? They will sell their Yiras Shomayim for a $100 bill.”
Come on, we have enough of a kitrug from the satan. We dont need fellow yidden piling on.
The story is true in its essential facts. The context in which it appears in the gemara will clarify some things, but not the actions of the Amora (yes the father appears to have been an Amora). It certainly requires going the maharsha, and other meforshim on the gemara to see if they offer an explanation for the actions of the father. The story is mentioned as part of an incident with Rav Ashi. Rav Ashi once related a din in hilchos shabbos, one of the talmidim commented on the halacha and Rav Ashi replied That is the opinion of so and so (rav yosi bar I forget who). The talmid replied “that’s me”. Rav ashi asked I thought you were a talmid of so and so (also a r’ yosi bar someone) why are you here. He replied “he didn’t have rachmanus on his own son and daughter, he won’t have any on me. The gemara then relates the two stories, the one with the daughter is the one mentioned here. It was his daughter being looked at.
Kasha. The girl in the gemara was dressed not tzniusdik? the father took her to beis din?
Notarabbi: Parents should daven that they do a good job raising their kids. Everything else will follow if they are successful in that.
Telling someone off, in ANY situation will elicit a negative response, it is not a sign of acknowleding wrong or “feeling guilty”. Kamayim….
“About two years ago this time, there was rumor going around about mashiach coming(may he come now). There was a women who called her Rov saying she doesnt want mashiach to come yet because she has nothing Tzniusdik to wear.”
I think this is an urban legend. Its a shame Snopes doesnt cover rumors that run through the chareidi community. Well they cover and debunk one story. David Miller and his refusal to fly without his Tefilling on United flight 175 on 9/11/01.
“That last thing you want is the rebatzin to make about a comment that the clothing is to short.”
Actually, thats not true. The rebbetzin wont “tell someone off”. She will comment in an appropriate manner that is not attacking and/or degrading. People take mussar from someone like that. Not from people who “tell them off”.
“The father asked Hashem to kill her and she died, because she was making people look at her.”
Do any Rishonim or Achronim suggest that fathers of good looking girls adopt this practice? Does the gemara itself suggest that this is a practice to be followed?
(This gemara might be a solution to the so called age gap crisis in shidduchim – kill off a bunch of good looking girls – AZ where are you when we need you?)
“If a person relizes he/she is doing somethig wrong, but wont change because a stranger told them off,”
See the Ksav V’Hakabbalah on the passuk hocheach tochiach es amisecha. After thoroughly going through and understanding what he writes, perhaps you will rewrite this sentence when you realize that telling someone off, especially some stranger is horrible thing to do and has nothing to do with the mitzvah of tochacha.
I was reading the blogs on several sports sites about the reporter in the Jets locker room. The general consensus among the writers (which I feel I can safely say are overwhelmingly not jewish bloggers) is that both the reporter and the players are wrong. The players for the comments, and looks and the reporter for her choice of clothing, especially into a mens locker room (where the testesterone level is already way off the charts after hours of grueling workouts).
Both sides, the men and women, have choices to make and both are held accountable for their decisions. Neither side can blame the other. Women should dress appropriately at all times (appropriately obviously depends on where and when and who is around). Men should be careful about where they go and where they look because they are responsible for what their eyes see, despite the choices made by the women in how they dress. The goyim understand this (on their level and their standards – which are obviously different than ours) we should too. “Dont look at how i’m dressed” and “dont dress in a way that gets my yetzer hara activated” are both wrong attitudes.
Squeak. Interestingly, as I read your last post. The background is BLUE, while all others are white. What kind of acid are you using? 🙂
SJS. It also gets you into all the “no strollers please” stores.
Just curious. Have you ever encountered a situation in those buildings that check bags, that you were asked to show that all you had in the sling was a baby? I once saw security at a Manhattan building ask a woman to remove the sling and “shake it out” to prove all it held was a baby.it was a “home made” deal, a bunch of cloth the woman magically tied into a baby carrier (I still can’t figure out how she did it).
Thanks for having my back Cookie 🙂
DA. “Frum woman” was not an attempt an a joke or an answer, rather an introduction.
I’m not a frum woman, but would like to offer several posibilities, if I may.
. Its easier to shlep around a baby in a carriage.
. Their pocketbooks are filled with enough junk and are already heavy enough. The extra weight just isn’t possible.
. When slings are sold in stores named “Le Snobbe Baby Gear”, or can be advertised as “100% pure Italian fabric” or have a Dolce and Gabana monogram on them, everyone will wear one. Even those with no kids to shlep around will tie one on and put in a watermelon.
. Our heilige bubbes didn’t do it in “der alte heim”.
. Slings sounds like a medical device and they want to avoid ayin hara. Call it a sash and people will buy it.
. The tznius police don’t like it. I’m not sure why, but I’m sure they don’t.
There is always the old standby, the beach. You can take the train, so parking wont be an issue. If you go at night, parking is also not normally an issue. You can go on the boardwalk in Manhattan Beach, Brighton Beach and down Surf Ave in “Coney Island”.
You can also drive down to the end of Ocean ave to the Bay (past the Bel Pkwy). In Marine Park you can park anywhere near Kings Plaza or go further down Flatbush Ave extension and park in the Toys R Us lot.
Cut (or bite) your nails real short before shabbos. This way there is nothing to bite on shabbos.
Tziipi. Uniforms are GREAT for parents, I agree 100%. They are even great for the schools because they dont have to deal with issues of tznius because they choose the uniform already.
“One tzniyus teacher in a BY in brooklyn looks under the girls sweaters to see if their tzniyus button UNDER THE SWEATER is unbuttoned! Of course this turns off tons of girls.
Girls have to be taught the meaning behind tzniyus – they just can’t have rules shoved down their throats.”
To this day my wife has bitter feelings about the “tznius morah” who used to check under the girls uniform dresses to make sure they were wearing the appropriate “leggings” (I’m a man, you’ll have to forgive my not knowing the appropriate name).
Kids learn from their parents. Spouses learn from each other. If a woman sees her husband is not that makpid with being kovea itim, or making it to shul on time or times it so that he makes it for barchu, don’t you think she will cut corners at times? If its good enough for him (and vice versa)…..
If kids see their parents cut corners, they will too. Eventually, the cut corners become the norm. (I personally don’t see this as the terrible mageifa people make it out to be but according to those who do) To use skirts as an example since this is the thread. Did too short, too tight skirts just suddenly pop up one day? Did we go from flairy skirts that go down as far as you need them to to suddenly too tight and too short? Kids test boundaries with their parents, people test boundaries with halacha. When kids see they can get away with things, they push the boundary even more. Same with halacha. I don’t beliebe Rabbonim have been asleep at the switch, and if they are not putting out these long screeds about the “prutzos” and “zonos” masquerading as BY girls, I don’t thing anyone else should either.
SJS. I was going to raise coming late for davening, but bittul zman is also a terrible crisis, a mageifa, why its practically pritzusdik.
I have never been able to verify this story. Can someone?
Supposedly R’ Elyashiv Shlita was asked to be sandek at the bris of a great-great (maybe only on great?) grandson. He refused to go because it would be a difficult trip roundtrip yerushalayim/bnei brbak and would result in him missing out on a lot of learning in hi sneed to rest from such a trip. The grandchildren supposedly dangled the argument that it is a segulah for a guaranteed ticket to olam habbah to be the sandek for a great great (1 great?) grandson. He supposedly replied that he would rather earn his olam habbah the old fashioned way.
Has anyone heard of this story? Is it verifiable? Part of it?
I think there is an over the counter product called “thums”, it is meant to stop thumb sucking, but the idea is the same with nail biting. It tastes horrible and you would probably sooner eat your shoes than suck your thumb with this stuff on it.
I used regular clear nail polish which helped me stop my nail biting. My doctor at the time suggested duofilm (or its generic equivilants) which is made for warts. You dont want to chew on that stuff, but he claimed it was harmless to use on your nails. The nail polish worked so I didnt have to try the duofilm. Cant tell you if it works.
My wife says “filenes basement” (which i think is now part of the syms chain) has a nice selection. perhaps there is one in your neck of the woods.
Someone hit upon a great idea earlier. Perhaps they did not intend for it to come out this way but the way I understood it, it makes a lot of sense. I apologize to the one who raised this idea earlier, but I dont have the patience to scroll back and find out who you are, so I can not quote you by name, but, you know who you are.
Schools should do away with uniforms and instead establish guidelines for dress. Let the students come dressed however they want and when that mode of dress does does not meet the schools guidelines it should be addressed with the student. Students will learn pretty quickly what standards are expected of them by those who run their school and if they choose to continue in that school, will continue to dress according to those standards, whether they like it or not (even if that standard is chumra built upon chumra, by choosing to attend the school, they agree to the mode of dress). Parents have a right to send their children elsewhere if they dont agree with those standards. Something will give, eventually. School uniforms dont do a very good job of giving over to students what the school hashkafa is regarding dress. Has anyone ever seen the uniform of any bais yackov type school that conjurs up the slightest hint of annoyance by anyone? Do the students believe this is the standard expected of them by the school? I have never worn a uniform (I’m not even female) and the closest I have ever come to a dress code in any yeshiva setting was dress pants and business shirts (which by definition excluded certain colors and styles), and that was when I was in bais medrash. When I was in high school, I started out wiht Polo shirts, until I was approached by the mashgiach at the end of tenth grade and we discussed “graduating” from Polo shirts to button down shirts. In 12th grade we discussed graduating from khakis and other casual style pants to dress pants (all bachurim had these discussions with the mashgiach, when he deemed it the appropriate time). In short, I (and my chaverim) understood the hashkafa behind why we were expected to dress a certain way. I am out of high school for close to 25 years and I dont know if bachurim in yeshiva or girls in high schools and seminaries develop relationships with people who know and understand them to get such hadracha. It seems that todays chinuch in general is mass produced and not “al pi darko”. As a result, instead of a teenager, boy or girl, learning why they are expected to dress a certain way, they are given the basic “do this, dont do that” routine (in the case of tznius its, cut and dry rules along with outrageous hyperbole with terms such as prutza and zona casually tossed around).
It is 100% assur to give tochacha if you do not know how to fulfill the next mitzvah “lo tisa alav chait”. See the sefer hamitzvos. For starters.