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“Any further questions you honor?” I assume that was directed to me. Actually, I do have more questions.
WHO makes this payment (sorry, who is responsible to show hakaras hatov) to the shadchan? (I dont want to assume the girl, but I think I read that in a response of yours).
What if one side says great idea, lets go on a 2nd date while the other says no way. Was it a good idea? Does the agreeable party make this payment? Why or why not?
The compensation after dates 2/4 etc… does it count towards the shadchanus in the event the shidduch is successful, or is that a separate account?
To each their own. Personally, I think it is one of the dumber things to come down the pike, but whatever floats the boat of this unknown community and its residents. Perhaps it is the land of AZ led by some famous wizard. Pay to date. Sounds like an escort service.
Tzipi. I dont think it means reconditioning girls. It means reconditioning boys not to reject out of hand girls who suddenly have 2 additional years to broaden their horizons (since they are banned from the dating pool) in college or the workplace. If the boys are not reconditioned, do you know how many girls will never get a date because they are “modern working girls”, or “overeducated”?
Showing appreciation is mentchlechkeit 101. The question really is, can you dictate how the appreciation is shown. One person might feel $100 is a nice way to say thank you, while another might feel it is too much. While another wishes they had the $100 to feed their family. The ways to show hakaras hatov are as many as their are people.
If a shadchan has a fee for services, then in a free market you can pay for the service at the set price, try and negotiate down the fee or shop elsewhere. Whatever floats your boat.
AZ: We agree that getting more boys dating and sooner is the solution. Where we differ is your desire to eliminate younger girls from the pool by encouraging dating boys to date older girls. Compensation for additional dates is a funny motivator. Who are you suggesting gets compensated for the date, the shadchan? The boy? the girl? All? Who pays this compensation? You dont see an inherent conflict of interest in compensating someone to go on a 3rd or 4th date? You dont see a conflict of interest where someone with a financial stake in a date occurring might not push for one, where it isnt warranted?
Its probably halachicly worse to call it “chugga” than to give a token of thanks. At least call it, their chugga.
AZ. The approach you suggest does not resolve anything. It is a short term band aid for a situation that requires a tourniquet.
Your essentially saying, since we have an imbalance, let’s eliminate girls from the pool.
If I was a shadchan who charged a fee, I would charge each boy $25 for every name suggested to them and return the money if they give an answer, yes or no, within 72 hours.
“That is exactly what i meant by age gap… current societal norms that dictate that 23 year old guys are dating 19 year old girls.”
That may be what you mean, but it is not what I mean. I see it is pointless to try and explain, yet again, because you will spin it into an age gap thing again. Without elaborating. We have eliminated a fair percentage of boys ages 18-22 from the dating pool because we have determined that unless you are “sitting in yeshiva” (and I use the term loosely) you are not a good shidduch prospect. The smaller pool of guys then goes on a search for the mystical reason to say no to a shidduch once a girls name is mentioned to him and the girl is relegated to his “list”, further complicating things. This results in hysterical girls and their parents who see themselves 4 months removed from seminary and still single as the time to panic. They pester harried and overworked shadchanim who in turn are frustrated by the antics of boys and their mothers as they continue to “look into” the suggestions given to them. What a world we live in.
Boys – No Charge
Girls – $150
I’m waiting for AZ and the age gap folks to suggest we charge the girls based on a sliding scale.
18-20 $300
20-22 $200
22-24 $100
24+ no charge
And the boys in the reverse.
Looking for and willing to date a girl
24+ no charge
22-24 $100
20-22 $200
18-20 $300
I go with the front brim down and the brim in the back, up. I tried going with both down, and people asked if I was from Texas.
“‘ve said it once i’ll say it a million times, equal out the numbers and you’ll solve this problem as well problem…..”
The ribbono shel olam called out bas ploni liploni for every girl. I dont think you or the minions that have perpetuated this age gap “crisis” disagree with that. Lets call a spade a spade. The current “societal norms and expectations” are all messed up and is the cause of all our problems.
“APY: A shadchan makes a reasonable suggestion. it is up to the individual sides to do their own reasearch to to see if they want go ahead.”
AZ. The shadchan makes this reasonable suggestion based on information he or she has because they met both sides. If they were just throwing things against the wall and hoping something would stick, my 5 year old can do that and would charge a much smaller fee. A pack of hello kitty stickers would do it. I dont think anyone would balk at that fee.
“And the research/questions are vital and necessary. They aren’t going away.”
When I was dating (yes, it was a long time ago), almost all the information people looked for was ALREADY with the shadchan. It is why someone used a shadchan in the first place! What changed?
“apy, the girls dont have to wait for an answer. She can go out with the first guy who says yes.”
The “yes” is what takes forever which is why girls are desperate to get on as many “lists” as possible. Hoping to get that elusive yes to a first date.
Suggestion to get things moving along. anytime it takes more than 2 weeks for a bachur, or his mother, to “look into” a shidduch they pay a small fee. This will discourage boys from creating their stupid “lists” and girls will go on dates. Our stupid system that requires everything to go through the boys side first creates a logjam where a boy is looking into 10 girls, while 10 girls wait around, sometimes for weeks, until tzadikil makes up his mind, then these other 9 go back into the “available” pool and onto the next heiliger list. The girl who gets perpetually stuck on lists for months at a time DOES feel desperate, its why they go to as many shadchanim as possible. The more lists you get onto the better the chance of getting a date. Pay all those shadchannim a fee when meeting them for the luck of getting onto a list is pouring salt onto a wound.
What I don’t understand is. You go to a shadchan, they meet with you, ask questions, hopefully take notes so that they have the answers ready when they need it. Yet, they suggest a shidduch, and everyone does their own independent research to learn much of the same information. If you don’t trust the shadchan, why use them? Are they viewed as access to people and nothing more? Sounds like the “system” is not just broken, but was developed by a sadist.
TMB. Whatever means are used, one has the option to ignore the phone. There is no mitzvah to answer the phone every time it rings.
I think people intuitively know the difference between a rabbi and harav. I have yet to see anyone (who knows better) say something in the name of Rabbi Kanievsky Shlita or Rabbi Elyashiv Shlita.
TMB, that is true of the organization itself, not a company acting on their behalf. See the rules at the FTC website.
Getting swiped in the eye with the tzitzis from someone elses tallis.
Whatever the age of the boy, or girl, and whatever the amount of money you do or do not give to a shadchan up front, after a 2nd date or upon the successful conclusion of a shidduch, if people dont date it is all irrelevant. People ask so many inane, insane and outrageous questions, and look to uncover the secrets of the universe in every shidduch, that it takes WEEKS for a single date to happen. Because the girls are on the wrong end of the waiting stick, they bear the brunt of hardly ever going out and growing older. The Ribbono Shel Olam has created enough females to go around so that everyone has a shidduch. I have yet to see it written in any sefer that by certain girls there was no bas kol that said “bas ploni liploni”. We have a stupid system that simply doesnt allow bas ploni to meet with and go out with her ploni. Stop asking so many questions and go out already!
“Many of these people make their living collecting “tzedahah” usually gettng a % of their take….this is their job, they won’t stop so easily”
These people are subject to the rules governing the National Do-Not-Call registry and you may ask them to remove your name from their list (on behalf of THAT organization) if your phone number is registered, if that is your wish. If they call again they (not the organization they are calling on behalf of) risk a $16,000 fine, for each call they make.
What I find most annoying are the robo calls where you pick up the phone and there is nobody on the line.
Turn off your ringer.
Shadchanim can charge what they want, when they want and how often they want. You are free to use the services of someone else.
(If you have an issue with shadchanim, I imagine you also have an issue with yeshivos and seminaries who charge an application fee, a registration fee and then tuition. Leave this discussion to another thread).
I am NOT a shadchan (not in the professional sense anyway) and dont know any professional shadchanim, but I would imagine the $150 (or whatever they charge) for the “initial consultation” is to weed out those who are serious from those who are looking to throw as much as they can against the wall in the hope that something sticks.
who needs a tv? you can watch everything online.
Why do you care how big the house is?
Whats wrong?
You wouldnt be skeptical if I told you that I was the only one aware of something occurring right under the nose of hundreds if not thousands of people? You are the only person who sees that the store is open? You’re the only one who knows the owner is jewish?
There are three sides to every divorce. His, hers and the truth. If you have a serious shidduch inquiry speak to all rabbonim who may have been involved.
This story doesn’t pass the “smell test”.
Commuting
I have found it “safest” to always move in groups. Business lunch, trip, working late. Always in a group, never one on one. Its not too difficult, at least where I work, to make it happen.
Sounds like TheGog is unhappy at work. Perhaps if you spent more time working instead of writing on YWN, you may accomplish something at work that says to your boss, hey, mr gog is really good, lets make sure we make him really happy here so that he wont go elsewhere and help our competition. Just a suggestion.
EN is only there when you are in hebrew mode. You click on them to switch back to english mode. In english mode you wont see the EN (obviously).
A ben torah has better ways to spend his free time than YWN. Plants vs Zombies for example is a much more eidele way to waste your time 🙂
My sisters had an opinion on everything, including the girls I dated. Especially those who were their classmates. I just took everything with a large grain of salt.
Perhaps you get paid 4x what they do, so you only get 5 minutes of his time to waste, but they each get 20.
The grass is always greener on the other side it seems.
My first day on my first job out of kollel, the woman sitting behind me, in a show of friendship was asking me about my family. I mentioned I was married with children. She looked at my hands and saw no ring. I explained that many Orthodox Jewish men do not wear a wedding band. Her reaction caught me off guard. “No ring”, she exclaimed, “how do you keep yourself from getting into trouble?”. It took me a while to really understand the bewilderment expressed in her question.
I dont know if it makes a difference halachicly, but due to the massive difference in what is considered appropriate behavior and not appropriate behavior among genders/sexes (I dont want to offend anyone by misusing either word) between jews and non jews, certain behaviors by a jew will not be viewed as “holy” by a non jew but rather irresponsible and even disrespectful or rude. To a goy, there is nothing “arayos” with calling someone by their own name and is considered rude and disrespectful if you dont use their name in many instances. Use your seichel and when in doubt consult a Rav.
On the topic of calling someone by their name, even some non jews recognize the feeling of “personalness” (for lack of a better word) created when calling someone by their name. Dale Carnegie in his lectures and his books writes how the nicest sounding word in any language to every person, is the sound of their own name. He uses this idea in a number of contexts.
I failed the first time. I failed the 2nd time. Then I took 5 driving lessons and I passed.
I always wondered why so many women were named her-na.
Did you hold down shift and alt at the same time? If you have the hebrew module of MS office installed shift/alt is the command to go from english to hebrew. If your text IS moving from right to left, check the lower right hand corner of the screen to see if the letters “en” appear. If yes, click on it to go back to english. Alt shift also takes you back to english (at least it does for me).
Oomis. I’m not in the “parsha” with my kids just yet, but I would have tested the waters with a “no” to the request for a photo to see what would play out. A neighbor in shidduchim, a wonderful girl, said no to a photo request, the other side said “no date”. She compromised by sending a photo of her profile, from her shoulders and up. For some reason they said yes to a date even though I as a neighbor couldn’t tell who it was a photo of. This is just one of those things that leaves you scratching your head and makes you wonder if we’ve lost our collective minds.
If all men wanted were “looks”, most would never have gotten married, unless you believe that he majority of men settled on their choice of a wife.
“So who decides the rules?”
Apparantly in some places, they follow the golden rule. The one with the gold, makes the rules.
Single, rude, dishonest, older than 19 people who drive taxis really slowly on the way to Walmart to return stockings they wore for the last year.
It took google 40 seconds to return that info to Mod 80.
On the subject of kleenex. Once you use it (even if it IS 3-4 tissues and you throughly irked Mod-80) dont open it up to see whats inside. What are you expecting anyway?
Aries, I am not a grandparent, I am a parent, and one with children approaching shidduchim, so I am not what one would call a young, or a new parent. It is clear we travel in very different circles. In the circle I move in, kids do NOT expect anything but parental guidance from their parents. They do not expect, or assume their parents will pay for everything, or anything. The attitude of your friend and their child(ren) is foreign to the circle I travel in (no, it is not a tiny circle, so wipe that smirk off your face 🙂
I guess it is why my reaction to your statements above were of shock and amazement. Sure there are spoiled kids and lousy parents in the circle I travel in, but it is not the norm, certainly not the norm you describe. If the attitudes expressed by parents and children are the norm in your circle then I can understand why you feel the way you do.
Aries: Ultimately I think it boils down to whether someone who is owed gratitude can expect or request that it be shown in a specific manner and more importantly, should they let that preference be known and can they be upset or even mildly annoyed if a different form of gratitude is shown.
I still don’t understand what “but we might choose to compensate the parents less for being less than generous in return.” means either. To me it still sounds as if there is a payment being made for a name being given to a child. Worse, it sounds like a game of tit for tat parents or grandparents are playing with their children and grandchildren.
STILL talking about a WB production?