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Personally, I like a good smoked whitefish over gefilte fish, but since the zemer says basar, vigifilte dakim vichul mattamim, I dont put up to much of a fuss and just pour some chrain over it and eat it.
Just curious. Just who are those meforshim? On which seforim hakedoshim did those meforshim make those comments?
(Tongue firmly planted in cheek). perhaps the shadchan should pay for the 1st date? you know, sort of a guarantee that they really think it is a good idea. If it progresses further they can be reimbursed.
Artchill. I wasnt aware you were appointed spokesperson for the vast majority of readers.
You never know what you’ll find over at the AMI – American Mustache Institute. Keep google safe search on.
Lakewood Dude. Can I assume you are learning in Lakewood? If I am correct, can I also assume your parents do not live in Lakewood? If my second assumption is also correct may I ask, are there no yeshivos in your hometown?
When it comes to shidduchim seems there are emotions that run the full gamut. At one extreme we have those who feel shadchanim are underpaid, underappreciated, misused and abused and on the other extreme are those who claim shadchannim ignore you and dont give you the time of day (along with several choice comments about witholding pertinent information and outright lying). A very toxic mix. Are there any professional shadchannim reading this? What is YOUR take?
Does anyone have any statistics on the percentage of shidduchim made by shadchanim as compared to those made by friends and family?
How long is your sister married? Why do you assume it is your brother in law? Maybe it is HER decision.
AZ, unless you ARE NASI or an official spokesperson, I will not tell you a name (the more I read your postings here and the responses of Rabbi what’s his name in the yated, – I’m sorry, I forget his name, – I’m beginning to thing that you are the same person).
I will tell you this much, this RY neither encourages or discourages close in age shidduchim. If one of his bachurim is redt a shidduch the least of his concerns is her age.
Admittedly, almost every shidduch that is done by bachurim in the yeshiva is one made by a friend, relative or acquaintence and not shadchannim who might be more aware of NASI initiative.
This is not addressed to you AZ specifically. Someone made a comment about who knows people whose shidduch was done by a shadchan as compared to a friend, relative or acquantaince. I thought about the last 10 chasunas I’ve been to and based on my experience 2 out of 10 chasunas came about via a professional shadchan. The other 8 were made by friends and relatives. No, none of these were chassidishe weddings.
Lastly, the comment regarding the time necessary for a single date to occur is spot on. I think the situation should be reversed and all suggestions for a shidduch should go to the girls side first. You will see a lot more girls dating, a lot more often and a lot more girls getting married.
I don’t have any statistics, and this is nothing more than a wild guess, but I am guessing that the avg guy goes out on 3x as many dates in a year as does a girl and the factor increases each year that they are dating. This is not an age gap thing, just the normal get on a list, I’ll look into it, waste everyones time problem faced by girls of all ages.
“that A. is working B. has been encouraged by a broad range of Gedolim and R”Y.”
1: IS it working? You claim it is. I dont see it. I know many girls over the age of 21 who cant get a call from a shadchan, let alone a date.
2: Regarding the “broad range of geolim”. I spoke to my rosh yeshiva who told me flat out that it was misrepresented to him exactly what the ad would say and how it would say it. Sounds more like someone is trying to force an agenda down peoples throats.
Thank you shtarky.
AZ. You misunderstand what I write. I am NOT encouraging close in age shidduchim, nor am I encouraging people to do so by offering financial incentives. All I am saying is that we have managed to create a society where we have artificially created a smaller pool of boys for an increasingly larger pool of girls. As time goes on, boys are “sitting and learning” longer and longer and girls are more desperate than ever to start dating while the ink on their high school diplomas is still drying. We have to change the mindset to get more boys into the pool, not eliminate girls from the dating pool. While we are at it, we have to make sure those boys we are allowing back into the pool (who will inevitably be “younger”) are prepared to move on with their lives. It means encouraging those who are not able to sit three sedarim a day to utilize the other two, to do something to learn a parnassha whether it is college, trade school or something else. I said before and will repeat for the last time, what you are advocating is a band aid which helps sometimes, and short term, but is not solving the actual problem at hand.
Tzippi. If you discouraged girls from dating until 20-21 (which is the same thing as saying, we are incentivising shadchannim to set up “older” girls”) after they get a degree from a fast track degree mill, what should they do with their lives? Will a 4 year program suddenly be acceptable? An advanced degree? A job in a midtown firm not named cohen and shapiro? I still remember the thread in the CR titled “overeducated girls”, will the prevelant mindset expressed in that thread be changed? If not, these girls will really be unproductive and vegetate.
I dont think anyone agrees or disagrees over the potential pitfalls one can sink into via the internet. Those pitfalls have always existed, for both men and women. The internet has provided for much easier access and more importantly, it removes a level of “busha” due to the anonymity it provides. I dont think it is a good idea for anyone to be the sole keeper of internet access. Everyone needs a shomer, some might require two or three and others may need help not to relapse. Either way, in any household, like everything else that goes on in the household, both the husband and wife, mother and father have to agree on a course of action, agree on the plan to execute that course of action and then work together to execute that plan. In my home, the PC has user profiles set up for the various family members. Each user profile is allowed specific access to specific applications. No user has access to the browsers installed as it is password protected. Depending on the browser (we have IE, Safari and Chrome installed) half a password is controlled by me, my wife and 2 of my older children. Some combination of any 4 of us is required to open a browser (the application is password protected) and go online, this way, nobody in the family can get online without the knowledge of at least one other family member.
How this was set up is due to a techie friend who knows how to do these things, I have no clue. On top of the password protection, I have K9 and Malwarebytes that logs all visited sites (with K9 blocking sites we dont want and Malwarebytes looking to block specific types of sites). Both K9 and Malwarebytes are available free.
AZ. Promoting close in age shidduchim doesn’t solve any problems. It simply says to a group of girls, delay jumping into the pool for 2 years, we’ll worry about you then. In the meantime, don’t do anything that might ruin your chances of a shidduch like going to college or going out into the workforce. Sit home all day and vegetate. In the meantime, we’ll keep the bachurim who don’t want to be there in the beis medrash, while they vegetate, and when you are 21 we will fix you up with a nice 22 year old vegetable who has no means of getting along in the world without your fathers support. If you are happy with that solution, push it.
“some people keep this as a Minhag”
While some believe it is one of the taryag mitzvos, so they make sure to incite an argument whenever possible.
“There is no way that there can be no mistakes happening in the production of all these 500,000 products. It is impossible to be on top of it all.”
If you believe this to be a true statement, don’t eat products certified by this hechsher.
“kashrus agencies rely on many kulos that you would never use in your home”
This is false.
If your model is working so well, why is it being kept a secret?
If I used a term I felt appropriate, we wouldn’t have a “crisis” 🙂
My own 2 cents on the situation:
15-20-25 years ago there was no “gap”, because girls and their families were not desperate to start dating the day after high school graduation and boys did face social pressures to “sit and learn” until they were 23 before they started dating.
Once it became “the norm” for a bachur to “sit and learn” (and in many cases all they are doing is warming a seat) and a stigma was attached to a boy who didnt, boys and their parents, figured the best way to “fit in” was to pack off to eretz yisroel for a year or 2 of “learning”, then back to their home country to “sit and learn” for several more. Societal stupidities took many boys out of the dating pool.
Concurrently, we became very “frum” and decided that post high school, girls only did certain things. Speech therapy and teaching became the vogue. Of course, going to college was looked down upon, so girls attended fast track, 8 months or less, programs and were done and had degrees and ready to get on with their life before they were 20.
If we allowed the numerous girls who wanted to, to continue their education to do so without attaching a stigma to them. If we allowed those boys who are ready to get on with their life at 21 because sitting in yeshiva 3 sedarim a day is not conducive to their growth as yidden, let them finish college and get married at 21-22 we would have plenty of “younger boys” to date a pool of girls that has suddenly become smaller, by choice.
We have created our bed, and now we have to sleep in it. I applaud groups like NASI for trying, as misguided as I feel they might be, but I dont believe anything will change until we wake up and realize that all we have done is create an unsustainable situation.
What will happen, I’m sure, is that a small percentage of girls will start dating later, while a larger percentage of boys will start dating younger because they no longer feel pressured to do what everyone else is doing.
Of course, we have to do away with the fallacy that every girl must marry a rosh yeshiva and that every boy will be the next rosh yeshiva, because all we will have accomplished is unshackling boys who dont want to be there 3 sedarim a day from their chairs in the beis medrash (which harsh as it sounds is not a bad thing for those bachurim).
Please give me 5 minutes to put on my flak jacket before you respond and call me an am haaretz, a rasha, a masis (or worse, if thats possible). After you do so, please offer up your own take on the situation and provide your own proposal.
Blech is not a loophole. It is the way we comply with a takanas chachamim on our modern cooking devices.
For starters. Stop calling a 21 year old girl, an “older” girl. Right or wrong, it attaches a stigma to her. The stigma leads to panic.
Maybe there is a problem with someones hashkafa if they don’t believe that a bas kol calls out “bas ploni liploni” every time.
Only if he owns a gun, a dog and waxes his facial hair.
AZ. It is a pay to play set up. You keep saying so. Right now, you are shaking down girls and their families because “the present reality is such that the boys parents are in the drivers seat and are not ready to do it as by and large they will just have someone else redd them a shidduch” (these are your words). What you are saying is, the girls and their families are desperate, we can shake them down for a few dollars, the boys, they have options, we cant shake them down, yet. As much as you keep mixing in mentchlechkeit and legitimate compensation for people who are providing a service, I get the feeling that it is mere lip service, and the true motivation is your comment about boys having elsewhere to go while the girls do not, so you feel it is easier to prey on their desperation.
If this was a matter of pure mentchlechkeit, or even a pure business matter – you use my service, pay for it – then this would extend evenly to all parties at all times.
The non jews have a saying. Women think with their head….. (vihameyvin yavin).
Did yichus get anyones street plowed any faster?
This is degenerating into terrible lashon hara about another yid.
Never heard of AMI magazine. Guess they need a new publicist.
Your kidding, today is tuesday?
You will need a catchy name to solicit funds.
Last time I checked, Rashi said nothing about kupat hair. Arba shelach, kineged arba sheli, period. That is the havtacha of the passuk.
AZ. I will clarify the union/organization comment. It goes hand in hand with another comment. Legislating mentchlichkeit. Your word imply the threat, you dont pay, you dont get to play. Unions work that way.
Please clarify this comment of yours.
“The concept IS show the people that you appreciate their time, effort and attempts and they will show your girls attention”
It is a tit for tat game? Pay me, I show your daughter the time of day, you dont, I wont. Sounds like a shakedown, nothing more.
Also, what about boys? They get redd shidduchim automatically? No need for them to pay them anything? Why do you keep harping on the girls and their parents? Is it girls, and their parents who are overwhelming shadchanim? The ones who take all their time and resources? The boys dont require much time, effort or resources so you dont mention them? Is it just how you wrote it, but it applies equally?
“isnt there an organization that guarantees a brocha for a donation”
The torah guarantees this, you dont need this organization per se. Arba shelach, kineged arbah sheli (you take care of mine, hashem says, i will take care of yours).
I think the edited portion is where the main point was made. That portion was not edited in the original message from the now closed forum. Perhaps a general fund under the auspicies of whoever, is not such a bad idea.
Frum yidden everywhere responded to help the legal needs of one yid, perhaps even when the matter is not out in the open, but the need is there just the same, yidden will generously give, to help another yid.
If Tzippi doesnt mean it, I do.
Community standards means. $10, $50 or zero. It means paying the shadchan nd what awhen the community deems it appropriate, not the shadchan, or some organization. If the community feels they do not want to play by the rules of the shadchan or their union, perhaps the shadchan should pick up and move to another community. It works both ways. If someone wants the services provided by shadchan, they play by the shadchans rules. If the shadchan wants clients the shadchan has to play by the rules of the clients. In a free market the 2 sides will both bend a little and a workable solution will be found.
We are still left with the question. If the mesivta bachurim are in yeshiva (or their yeshivas camp) who should camps hire as counselors for the younger boys?
The way I heard the story I mentioned in previous post: When R’ Shmuel Z’l inquired of R’ Bender Shlita who the camp counselors were, R’ Bender repplied “nar bums”. He saw that R’ Shmuel was taken aback by his response, and that is when he told him, who should we hire, if the yeshiva bachurim are not allowed to be in camp for the entire summer.
Well said Aura.
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Merriam Webster.
Scheme: A plan or program of action.
Is it neither a plan, or a program of action?
whatever you play, make sure it doesnt become a bored game.
I heard that Rav Bender made such a comment to R’ Shmuel Berembaum Z’l many years ago and after that comment R’Shmuel “left alone” those bachurim who returned late to the zman because they were counselors in camp.
Chaim berlin (yeshiva ketana) has canceled for tuesday as well.
If you really want to stick out like a sore thumb forget the corvette. Get an suv with custom rims.
Does it really matter? Todays religion is is a creation of Saul of Tarsus (paul) who managed to convince enough pagans to follow his new religion based on this (some historians say) mythical person.
Back to learning. The majority of jews did not learn friday night, motsai shabbos, tonight, or any night of their life. What is everyone doing to get at least one of those people to learn, at least once in their life?
Mesivta Yesodei Yeshurun in KGH is closed tomorrow.
1: Yeshu mentioned in the gemara couldn’t possibly be oso ish the xtians are celebrating. Yeshu of the gemara was a talmid of yehoshua ben prachya (according to the gemara) who predated hillel and shammai by several doros (see pirkei avos), while oso ish the xtians celebrate was supposedly a contenporary of Raban Gamliel and a talmid of hillel according to their scriptures.
2: The xtians themselves have surely made up a birth date for oso ish, just as surely as they made up his yichus (different books of xtial gospel list very different yichus back to david hamelech – with one listing 24 generations and another more than 40 – with most of the names different in each – and one listing the yichus through the mother, since they believe he had no physical father). The birthday chosen is one that coincides with numerous old pagan beliefs.
3: To learn or not learn on the night of nittel is surely a minhag that some have while others do not. Instead of haggling over yes or no, it makes way more sense for us to focus on how to reach out to the vast majority of jews who will not learn a word of torah, unfortunately, on any night of the year, and worse, might have been celebrating his birthday on that night.
Was work done without a permit? Was work not on the permit done? How much deviation from the permit did the inspector find? If you have a building permit and everything was built according to approved plans and is up to code, you shouldn’t get a run around.
Why dont you stand outside the Touro building on Ave J and E.16th and ask the boys what they think. Or their parents. Or the girls who they date.
Unfortunately, most of klal yisroel won’t be learning torah tonight, or on any night for that matter. Instead of worrying who does or doesn’t have a minhag to learn or not learn and the reasons for doing so, why don’t we all get together and come up with ways to make torah accessible to the vast majority of jews who were never exposed to it. That would be the true way to be rid of whatever tumah may or may not descend on the world on nittal nacht.
What does the word “nittal” mean? Is it hebrew, yiddish, aramaic?
“Do you know what Oorah does?”
R’ chaim Mintz shlita will be more than happy to tell you. He is listed in the Brooklyn phone book. This thread looks like it is headed to the sour grapes that was all over the Yated half a year ago.
Mentchlichkeit, is tried and tested. The torah is all for it too. We cant legislate mentchlichkeit, which is exactly what this scheme is.
“should the wife have total control of the home internet?”
I dont think it is a good idea for any one person, male or female, to have sole control.
AZ. You may agree with what I wrote, you may not. Its hard to determine sarcasm in an anonymous posting.
You seem to be advocating the “more government” approach. Since, in your opinion, people who should, do not display hakaras hatov, we will instead legislate the appropriate hakaras hatov.
Personally, I think our yeshivos and bais yackovs should do a better job when it comes to teaching middos, along with a communal re-emphasis in middos.