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Every shul and every person is different. We have to get rid of a holier than though attitude towards other people and learn to focus on our own davening. Go at the speed that you feel comfortable with whether fast or slow and that is OK and don’t let outside pressures factor in.
“Like we’re talking about Yomim Tovim… ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????…” Aha it began……..looking forward to an exciting weekend in the CR!
HaKatan: Your really proving my point in your tone towards MO.”The “proud MO” want to hear examples and also engage in name-calling, but, as soon as an example is brought up, they even admit it but they say “let’s leave that aside for now”. You seem unwilling to accept that they’re are different points of view other than authentic “Chareidi” Judaism. I think that’s the point of this discussion. There can be two sides to an opinion without putting the other down, and people have to choose what derech is best for them. As long as there is halachik and Rabbinic backing we can disagree on issues and live together.
“it is absurd to claim that it is Halachicly permissible to “modernize” Orthodoxy as MO delude themselves into believing and as some here are promoting.” I don’t understand this statement. MO does not claim to Modernize halachah. It does claim to engage in the outside world within the constraints of halachah and accept the risks that come along with it.
“The Zionists have acknowledged a small portion of their misdeeds. Yet MO makes this heresy of Zionism one of the most important parts of their theology.”
Ok this is pure nonsense and really unfair towards another group that you happen not to agree with. You might not agree with Zionism, That doesn’t make it wrong. This is my point. Rav Kook wore a bekisha and shtreimel and there are literally Thousands of Rabonim in Israel (Rav Aviner, Rav Lichtenstein, Rav Yaakov Ariel,) who agree that Zionism is one of the pillars of Orthodoxy today and is a big part in the bringing of moshiach (Please for everyone’s sake don’t start attacking these rabbis, That was not my point). You disagree with them, That’s Ok but it doesn’t mean that Zionism is heresy, It means they’re different points of views regarding the issue.
HakunaMatada: The tone of your post was excellent. Thank you for commenting on the Response and not the people within the category. I think that is the way for the discussion to move forward:
As far as woman not dressing Tsnius and covering there hair. I believe your confusing categories. There are many people in MO who don’t cover their hair and dress untsniusdik (Shorts Sleeves, Pamts)and maybee even certain Rabbis accept it but I don’t think that’s part of the overall philosophy. MO understands Tsnius and tries to follow it to the best of its abilities. But I will concede that Its Much More Accepted in the MO Community than the Chareidi Community. I think this issue has to be left alone and just agree that although its not correct it does occur in th MO community but is not part of the overall Philosophy.
As far as learning full time I agree with you that the attitude in the Chareidi community is learn torah first and in the MO its support a family and then learn torah. I also agree that if its financially feasible there’s nothing wrong with someone learning full time. This is an example of Eilu Veeilu each person has to do what’s best for him. We can disagree with this point and be OK.
“The problem is, there are many people who are machshiv Torah and mitzvos, but are pro Israel, so they identify with modern orthodoxy, and then you have people at the opposite end of the spectrum who do most of the basics, and label themselves as orthodox” This isn’t a problem Whatsoever. This is the Beauty of AM Yisrael. We are one nation with one Torah no matter Which Philosophy (Right or Left) you subscribe too.
Hakatan” However, one difference between traditional Orthodoxy and MO is that, unlike traditional orthodoxy, MO claims certain aveiros are muttar”
I want to throw up after reading this statement. What purpose does it serve? All your accomplishing is Sinas Chinam and causing people reading this thread to dislike or think lower of Modern orthodox. You gave no examples to back up your claim, It was just baseless hatred (borderline foolishness) against another group you disagree with. The OP originally asked at what point are you categorized into each. Wouldn’t the normal approach to the question would be to explain the differences without putting the other categories down??
There’s Plenty good within both categories and mutual agreement to not have to resort to mocking each other.
HakunaMatada: I don’t think woman not covering their hair and dressing in an untsniusdik way is “Accepted” in Modern Orthodox circles. Does it happen?? Of course. But are we going to ostracize woman from orthodoxy because there not following halacha 100% of the time? That’s not fair no matter what circle of orthodoxy you’re in. Every single MO day school teaches the value of tznius and what woman decide to do is up to them.
“or a guy isn’t so zahir in halacha” This applies to both categories, They’re plenty of Yeshivish people who are “not Zahir in Halacha”. Your attacking the people of a category instead of trying to explain the beliefs (The good) within each category.
“thousands of bnei torah learning in kollel” Yes by and large they’re more Yeshivish people learning full time than MO, But should all of them be Learning instead of supporting their families?? Have you walked into Yeshivas Merkaz Harav? Shaalvim? Kerem Beyavneh? And our very own in America Yeshiva University??? You may disagree with the philosophy but theyre are plenty of Modern Orthodox Men in Kollel and learning full time the same Torah.
I dont think One is better than the other they each category serves a purpose and there is plenty of room in Judaism for both categories.
+There’s more common ground in both (These are just examples / don’t take it at face value : Shabbos. Learning, Kashrus EX.) than slight philosophical disagreements and it would do everyone well to focus on the positives that bring us together than the differences that drive us apart.
It seems the Yeshivish world / The right wing of orthodoxy cares a lot more about Hashkafah than Modern Orthodox / The left wing of Orthodoxy. You will not find mussar claasses in Modern orthodox high schools. The general rule of thumb is Co-ed day schools align with modern orthodoxy and Yeshiva ketansa/ Gedolas and Bais Yaakov are more to the right of orthodoxy. Modern Orthodox / The left of orthodoxy believe in valuing a higher education and secular knowledge in its own pursuit is worthwhile while the yeshivish world generally just tolerates higher education / University as a means to make parnassah. Both groups believe in taking on leadership roles within the outside community but the right wing is just a little more focused inwards than the left of orthodox (not always true). The left of Orthodox strongly believes in and encourages an attachment to the state of Israel (celebrating Yom haatzmaut, Serving in the Army, Ex..) while the right values the land of Israel but doesn’t always recognize the state. The right tries to minimize outside influences (TV, Movies, Secular Music, Ex.) while the left fully allows them within the constraints of Halachah.
I commend you rebdoniel, Thanks for publishing. I like many, find it extremely difficult to connect this day with national pain and sadness and tisha baav becomes one of the most difficult days of the year as a religous jew. Thanks for giving us insight on how to properly observe the day.
tzaddiq: Montreal and Toronto while both being very big communities and wonderful cities I would not recommend to anybody that doesn’t have a family motive to move to those cities. They’re actually the opposite of what the OP is looking for, both are extremely expensive (getting to the point of unaffordable), cold and you have to be Canadian or have a specialized profession to work there and in Montreal you have to speak french in order to work outside the Jewish community which is the reason for the gigantic Sefardic population that lives in Montreal. They are both nice cities with wonderful shuls and great for the right personalities but just too many headaches. save them for vacation spots.
One of my favorites is Uprising, not sure what age the Shul is but if their are children Inside Hana’s suitcase is a great documentary.
There are certain instances in life you have to decide on your own if you’re comfortable with such a situation (the Fifth Chelek of shulchan oruch). The Coffee is kosher don’t let anyone tell you otherwise but the least of the issue are of it being washed with products that might have been touched by treif in addition to Maaris Ayain of going into a non-kosher restaurant. Ask your rabbi if he thinks it ok than if your comfortable with this enjoy the coffee and try not to care what others might think.
good question, some couples make by with wedding money and just a little help from parents. even people who marry later usually live above their incomes and are still being supported.
Based on the public facts of the story it is reasonable to assume that he was stepping overboard his call of being a shomrim member. there were numerous instances before the attack where he should have thought about what he was doing and have called the police. I’m not saying he’s guilty but he did cross the line and it wasn’t a miscarriage of justice. Shomrim is to assist the police , not to replace it. Does anyone know if he’s going to serve time in prison?
Is it common for religious Jews to drive German cars? They’re so many other options……
There’s no answer to this question, but as a general rule you are better off buying an existing business.Unless you’re an incredible entrepreneur buying a business gives you a preexisting framework to grow. As someone who sees many start ups I can only say that the biggest mistake most start ups have is not securing proper financing for the long term which applies to both cases.
troll troll troll . I your asking how to get dates you do have to be very proactive and not be shy and take a back seat, go to a Shadchan, go online to frumster or syas tell your friends your looking. Maybe write a more specific question?
This is taken from the blog Hirhurim i cant phrase it better “av Tzvi Yehuda Kook was a major force and proponent for shaving in honor of the day and Rabbi Shlomo Aviner calls it a great mitzva worthy of ignoring the instructions and preferences of one’s parents.[3] Even Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank was said to have permitted shaving on Yom Ha’atzmaut.[4] There are also a number of precedents for individuals and even entire communities to take a haircut and shave on the anniversary on which a great miracle had occurred, even if it is during the omer period.[5]
It is reported that Rav Kook was once asked what the halacha is with regards to shaving on Yom Ha’atzmaut and his response was that he would examine their faces on Yom Ha’atzmaut for the answer. When he saw that many of his students did not shave in honor of the day he labeled them with the verse: “Their faces show their character”,[6] as if to say that the disheveled look on their faces from not shaving shows that they did not understand or appreciate the great spiritual significance of Yom Ha’atzmaut. As he put it: “When there is faith, there is joy and when there is joy there are no halachic doubts”.[7]”
I hope that answers your question, once again im not sating i agree im saying that rabbis hold differently so you have to ask your personal rabbi about this.
Rav Kook writes that you can truly tell who a Zionist is by looking at his face (I.E whether he shaved or not) on Yom haatzmaut during sefirah. I’m not downplaying rav kook I’m sure he has a very good reason for allowing people to shave on Yom Haatzmaut I’m stressing the importance that a question like this should not be posted on a forum rather asked to your rav.
150k is pretty high, would you be considered very poor if combined your making only $85,000 a year which is considered fairly average for the rest of the world?
It refers to a culture that values fitting in, wearing black hats (For guys)and disconnecting itself from the outside world (Reality). Part of the shidduch crises is many girls are looking for there perfectly “Yeshivish” husband.
Do they actually have a minyan everyday of frum jews in Otisville or is it just an urban legend that goes around?
I don’t think he was referring to the age in which people start dating at all. The cause of the crises is that every girl coming out of sem wants to marry a learning boy and all boys are told to stay in learning forever and to look for a father in law who can support them. Tthis translates to that all boys (boys moms?) want a shver that can give money to keep them in learning with a comfortable lifestyle. which means more boys are marrying wealthy girls whose parents can support them which makes the rosh yeshivas happy because more boys than ever are staying in learning, and girls who’s fathers do not have the capabilities for support are not getting redt shidduchim. these very same girls should be looking elsewhere for shidduchim but instead many are unfortunately becoming older singles because the boys will not give them a yes and they refuse to think out of the box and realize the type of guys they’ve been told to marry their entire life are not interested in them.
Yes of course there are exceptions, but this is most certainly a man made problem by narrowing our community (kinda a bad idea huh) which can be fixed. it’s not a numbers problem.
There’s a comment regarding girls from either There’s a comment regarding girls from either families that cannot support a son in law learning or from a broken home in another thread I’d like to discuss here
The comment goes as follows “Of course they made a choice. They choose to look for something extremely rare (a boy who is a “yeshivish” Ben Torah who does not want to be supported, or a boy that can not reject out of hand due to his huge “list”). Blame that on society that pushes boys to be supported.
Then their parents (or the girls themselves) reject the boy they are actually looking for (a Ben Torah who is working) because he is working or YU type.”
how much of this statement do you believe to be true?
With all the recent comments regarding NASI maybee the problem is not a numbers problem at all rather we are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
I know that there are bais yaakov girls that have gone out with YU types that have been forced to break up because of parents involvement. There is an entire Jewish Orthodox community out there who are frum shomer shabbos and learn torah and I have to wonder are we limiting our girls?
Interesting, I agree with you that in Yeshivish circles the shadchan should have made the call but Considering the reason the shidduch was called off wasn’t given I don’t blame the shadchan for getting upset and making the guy call himself. In more modern circles after only skyping with someone a few times you don’t even owe them a reason for ending the relationship. It does seem like the guy cancelled the trip for a valid reason figuring he didn’t want to waste anybody’s time. A decent guy with a proper reason should be able to make the phone call to the girl and explain why he thinks it won’t work out. Yes people feelings get hurt in shidduchim there’s no way around that but if his reason is valid than she should be able to understand and move on.