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Joseph: It’s not what I believe, it’s what Yirmeyahu believes. As stated, historically, Jews did davven for the Czar’s.
Daas: Do the gedolim say it or not? If they don’t, that is a p’sak. That is an illogical statement. There are many things they don’t say. They never said a yeshiva boy is who not learning, who is just hanging out, should not go to the Army. Must be they approve?
Yes, Boys and Girls need to sign up for exemptions. No chiddish there. We are our worst enemy! If we truly followed the Torah and showed Hakoras Hatov, I hardly doubt they would try to get yeshiva bochurim in the army. When you are facing people who call you Nazi, spit at you, punch and kick you, don’t respect you, the government will start questioning why are we fighting for them?! Do I blame them? No! I blame ourselves! If we showed our Hakoras hatov and they we truly appreciate what they do, their hatred would not be as great.
All I am suggesting is we start! Don’t know if it will change anything.Daas: I am sorry, the absent of a pasak is not a pasak,
As I stated, most shuls stopped saying Mi Sherberech during WW1 when the Jews from Germany were in the Army fighting Jews from other countries. It was an ethical question of how we can pray to hashem for our country to be victorious when this means our brothers on the other side were going to die.Based on that, the “minhag” was established. And if shuls accept this minhag, fine. But as others nicely stated, saying tehillim, seeing a soldier walking down the street and say thank you, buying a soldier food, are all ways to show Hakoras Hatov. To argue the point that because you learn Torah, Hakoras Hatov should not be shown is apikoresus! While there is propaganda that the Israeli government is forcing yeshiva bochurim in the army is pure ignorant lies and sheker. All they asked was that you sign up for exemptions; like anyone else asking for an exemption. The issue here is we feel we do not need to follow the law. We feel we do not need to show hakoras hatov to the soldiers, religious or not, who are fighting for our people to have the ability to study Torah. To show a lack of hakoras hatov, to show a lack of Torah learning by breaking the law is what I have issues with. And there are many, many gedolim who do encourage their bochurim to get the exemptions. They discourage their bochurim from protesting that impacts the tzibur.; besides bittul torah.
I personally know a bochur who was not learning that went to a Rebbe in Eretz Yisorel for a Bracha, the rebbe gave him a bracha with LOVE. This is what ahavas yisroel is about! This is what I learned from the Rebbe. You do not need to join the army, but love the Jews that do it and show them the love.
This mere topic is proof why moshiach is not here yet. We cannot love our fellow Jews, regardless if they are religious or not. We can not even show them the appreciation for what they do. Hopefully, one day, we will have yeshiva bochurim who can show their love, their hakoras hatov, to people who are not yeshiva bochurim, but that day is not today.Takes3: You are using the same old ploy liberals use on conservatives. As soon as you lose your position, you go after the personal attacks. Congrats for taking a play from them!
No, I am not against gedolim. I am against people who put words in the mouth of gedolim which is contrary to the Torah. Unless you can provide a name of a gadal that states the torah words I mention arenot valid, I do not believe in the words you say that any gadol goes contrary to the torah words.
You brought a Ran, which we do not pasken like to meet your position. You bring every source to show how Hakoras Hatov is not required.
You have a mishna that states you should davven for the welfare of the ruling government.
The Navi says וְדִרְשׁ֞וּ אֶת־שְׁל֣וֹם הָעִ֗יר אֲשֶׁ֨ר הִגְלֵ֤יתִי אֶתְכֶם֙ שָׁ֔מָּה וְהִתְפַּֽלְל֥וּ בַעֲדָ֖הּ אֶל־ה כִּ֣י בִשְׁלוֹמָ֔הּ יִהְיֶ֥ה לָכֶ֖ם שָׁלֽוֹם׃. It is your achrayus to davven for the STATE you live in; regardless if it is Zionist or not.
We even offered Korbanous for the gentiles in the world in the Bais Hamikdash! But instead of going to the source, you distort the words of gedolim to meet your agenda. You davven 3 times a day for : אַתָּה חונֵן לְאָדָם דַּעַת. Is that just mere words to you?We have Yekum Purkan, Av Hrachamin etc, were all written after Anshi kennes Hagdolah in the 11th & 12th century. They have the official sidder of Amsterdam also having a Mi Sheberech for the state in 1600 hundreds; siddurim from England from the 1800’s for Queen Elizbath, etc Please name ONE gadol who will argue that historically the frum shuls never davvened for the welfare of the state, prior to WW1. I have seen a russian siddur with it asking for the czar. You cannot argue historical facts.
Regardless if you think government deserves your hakoras hatov or not, the soldiers who put their lives on the line for you do!
I am flabbergasted on how people use the Torah to distort the basic premise that the torah states: Derech Ertez Kodma Latorah. Hakoras Hatov is the simplest form of Derech Ertez. And yes, I refuse to believe you when you state gedolim are against this premise of the Torah. I ask you name one gadol that clearly states we do not need to follow it.
Tas: Halacha dictates a mishibrrech should be said for the state.
משנה ב רַבִּי חֲנִינָא סְגַן הַכֹּהֲנִים אוֹמֵר הֱוֵי מִתְפַּלֵּל בִשְׁלוֹמָהּ שֶׁל מַלְכוּת שֶׁאִלְמָלֵא מוֹרָאָהּ אִישׁ אֶת רֵעֵהוּ חַיִּים בְּלָעוֹ
I know…I know….the mishna is outdated and our gedolim know better.
One of the reasons we stopped was because in ww1 Jews were fighting each other. However, if you look in older day siddurim, they still have it for the queen or czar.Daas: Stop listening to propaganda. They want charadim to follow the law. If a charadi applies for an exemption that they are learning, they are exempt. If they are not learning, they can go to the army. If they want to learn and serve, they can go to hesder. There are many options available for all types of people.
Joseph: “Members of such communities should be exempt from all taxation (VAT, income, business, etc.) as the government should not bite the hand that feeds it.”
Great idea. No hospitals, no electricity, no police, sewers, roads, health inspections etc. that are paid for by taxes. If a yeshiva guy wants to go to the kosel, he can go to the small kosel in the arab shuk, or pay an entrance fee to help maintain the area. Great idea! I wonder how long that would last!
TAS: Zionist do not want chardiemm to join the army. Zionist want chardiem to obey the law and file an exemption from the service. In addition, a simple Mi Sheberech for the SOLDIERS, not the state, to show Hakoras Hatov.
Joseph: Most yeshivish charadim came AFTER 1948.
I do not think they should throw anyone in Jail. If I was a Zionist (a term antiquated from the 1800’s) I would allow the Palestinians to control Yerushalyim, Chevron and only keep Tel aviv and Eilat. If you are not willing to die for something, why fight for it? The Zionist, as you put it, don’t care about the Torah or Yerushalyim so there is no reason for them to fight for it. If the yeshuivish velt wants it, then do something about it. If you think that is a great idea, please take a ONE day trip into Gaza or Area A before you comment.And yes, causing traffic that puts commerce to a halt is not what the Torah subscribes.
Daas: Obeying the law by signing up to be exempt from Army service is all that is required. A simple mi’sheberech for the soldiers who are fighting for one to sit and learn is a common hakoras hatov. Anything less is a Behama and distorts the Torah for their own agenda. This is not a argument regarding serving in the Army or not. It is about obeying the law and sign up for an EXEMPTION! If people cannot do a simple thing to get exemptions, then leave Israel and wait for moshiach!
Wow…to sum up this post, yeshivish charadim refuses common decency of hakaros hatov and backs it up with Torah while other express Haloras hatov based on Torah.
My answer will be simple, objey the law or leave. Objey the law or get thrown in Jail. Pure and simple. You can bring all the rayis to your court case.
Takes3: you have it all wrong. All the people you know who joined the army were ALREADY off the derech and hanging out at 7/11. They decided that if they dont want to be shomrai Torah umitzvos, at least they will have ahavas yisroel.
BH that even though they did not want to keep the mitzvos they still had a kesher to their fellow Jew. This by itself will one day bring them back.Joseph: can you please provide a source that musicians, politicians etc at exempt? You keep on saying that and I cannot find a source.
And no one is saying give up Torah. You can still go to a hesder yeshivish.
Daas: No one is arguing the benefits of Torah. The discussion is can you provide any Rishonim or Achronim that says Torah exempts you from military service?
You have countless examples of Jews leaving their homes and lands in order not to violate the Torah. If military service is against the Torah, leave or be arrested.
Actually, it is very pashut we do not follow the Ran. He is a yachud in this matter.So are you saying frum people do not need to follow the law because there is a Ran who we do not pasken like?
Still not understanding how frum people can live there and break the law.
What heter is there? Either follow the law or leave.
Daas: And thank you. We do not Pasken like the Ran (I am glad I was also mechven to what the Rashba wrote).
Per Rav Asher Weiss shlita Dina d’malchusa dina applies also in Eretz Yisrael and which the opinion of the Rambam, and of the majority of the poskim.Daas: You are twisting the Ran. As you correctly posted: “אבל במלכי ישראל לא לפי שא”י כל ישראל שותפין בה”
You do not have the right Bzman hazeh! I truly cannot comprehend how that Dina Delmachusa applies in any government where “יכול לומר להם אם לא תעשו מצותי אגרש אתכם מן הארץ”. The fact that someone can be arrested because of avoiding the draft proves you have no tayna!Regardless, the Israeli government does not hold of the Ran or ANYONE else for that matter. So there is really no point discussing halacha when the government will not abide by it. So the options are clear,
1) Hold of the Ran and use that in your court case prior to prison
2) Move to a country that does not have a draft law
3) Join the army.Joseph- You misunderstood the Ran in Nedarim 28. Dina D’Malchusa Dina does not apply under a Jewish KING who follow the Torah. None of those conditions apply! There is no king and nor do they follow the Torah. So Bzman Hazeh, Dina D’Malchusa Dina DOES apply in Ertez Yisroel.
And no where does the Ran talk about a secular government!
Daas & Joseph: The chumish clearly defines the boundaries of ERETZ YISROEL. The boundaries are different than what is currently defined as the State of Israel. Feel free to live in any part of ERETZ YISROEL that does not have the requirement of joining the army. A few places that comes to mind that are considered ERETZ YISROEL that does not have a draft law are: Gaza, West Bank, Jordan, parts of Syria and Lebanon. Those will all meet the Ran’s requirement and allow you to obey the laws.
No one is forcing you to live in the parts that have draft laws. If you voluntary live there, please follow the law.
Thanks,
IsaacJoseph:
The Ran said Eretz Yisroel, not the State of Israel. Your right will exist when moshiach comes. In addition, if you hold the land is kedusha, it does not stop you from living ayvar hayardan too. The Ran does not say you are limited to the State of Israel borders.
I do not know where you are living, but you can move to Jordan (still considered Eretz Yisroel, per the Ran). I know, because I have been there. But do keep the torah, you have US, Germany, UK, Spain, Malaysia, South Africa, and many other countries where you will find Israeli’s living. How far are we truly going to sacrafice to be Shmori Torah Umitzvous?Joseph….that is not correct. You cannot be forced if you are out of the country. However, you can also never return. The price to pay for shomrai Torah and mitzvos.
Daas: the US doesnt have active draft laws. Durikg vietnam, if you were not in Yeshivish, you were drafted
Again, this is NOT a halacha army. They may assist with your religious requirements but are not required to. The law is everyone must serve in it. As a chesed, they allowed people who register that they are learning to be exempt. No other country does that. People have 3 options:
1) join the army
2) register to say you are learning.
3) leave the country
This is not that difficult to understand. If it help most people here, replace Jewish state with Arab state. Faced with those 3 options, what would one do?YeshivaRockstar.
Typical yeshivish response. However, feel free to Google “Peleg Tzaddikm Rip Tichel Off Lady Trying To Stop Them From Blocking Cars” as it seems I can not post links.AviK- U- unvaynig….very little
Don’t know what people are talking about. This is a jewish state, not a religious state. They do not need to follow halacha. You need to. Dina dilmachusa applies to any government the Jews live under.
The age 20-60 may have been written in the Torah, but most Jewish kings never followed the Torah!
Take3tomakemangoes- simple…dina dilmachusah. You need to follow the law of the land. Since this is NOT a halactic army they do not need to follow the Torah. However, people as citizens in this land need to follow the halacha. The other choice is leaving, like Jews have always done throughout the ages when forced to violate the Torah or principles they hold dear.
I wonder if the OP can retitle his post as “Can the “right” of Ultra-Yeshivish be saved while the “left” has left? There are many examples where the oilam has gone beyond frumkeit and to the extend it borders on reshus.
I just saw a video of black hat members of this crowd pulling off a techal of a woman?!?!?! Never in my life I would have ever thought I would see supposedly Benai Torah doing something so vile?!?! Is it time we separate from these people and the rabbonim that support them? What should we called this new sect; FRUM:
F- Feel
R- Reshus
U- unvaynig
M-Mitzvos@SHopping613: Actually, since the 6 day war, Israel has not won any real wars. It technically LOST the Yom Kippir war. If it wasn’t for a seize fire with Egypt, Israel would not be able to concentrate it’s forces against Syria in the Golan. Egypt recaptured the Suez which was a big win for them. Almost half of Israel’s air-force was destroyed and approximately 2,700 Jewish soldiers were killed. I don’t know how you can consider that a win! Eben in Lebanon, Israel paid too high of a price against Hezbollah. I’m sorry, but since the 6 day war, Israel did not win any wars. There were always seize fires to save face.
In the time of the Tanach, learning had NOTHING to do with who goes to war. That was never the question that was asked by the Cohen. Those questions were also only asked for a milhemet reshut. A milhemet mitzvah everyone needed to fight. I would think Pikuach nefesh is a mitzvah.
The problem, I believe, is that most frum people are spoiled. We all grew up in luxurious safe environments and do not understand what it takes to protect a country as we have goyim who are more than happy to sign up in our stead.
My biggest fear is, as most frum shuls, do not even say a tefillah that our brothers in arms (and yes, brothers) to be safe, is that the irreligious leaders will one day decide that the west bank, which includes half of yerushalyim, the old city, neve yaakov, pisgot zeve, etc will all go under the Palestinian rule. It is sad that everyone alive cannot recall all the massacres under the Arabs, but it seems that our yeshiva system prefers Arabs over irreligious Jews. We will then have fast days, yom tefillah and hopefully, hashem will not say why are you davvening now? You never cared for it.
I do not think anyone says learning is not important, but from all of Tanach, can anyone find ONE source where people who were learning was excused from military service? Where is the betachon that the learning that you do will protect you? It’s great saying it protects the soldiers, but how much more meaningful will the learning be when it is YOUR life a stake?
And if people refuse to serve, then they should not live there! Move to Gaza where you are not required to serve in the army. What right do you have to live in Yerushalayim? You did not fight for it so you should wait for moshiach to gain the right.Sorry, I did not read through all 601 posts, but there are studies, like:
Madsen, K. M., Hviid, A., Vestergaard, M., Schendel, D., Wohlfahrt, J., Thorsen, P., … & Melbye, M. (2002). A population-based study of measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination and autism. New England Journal of Medicine, 347(19), 1477-1482. That concludes that there are no associates between the MMR and Autism.In addition, there are numerous studies that show that there are no link between SIDS and vaccination. it appears that the opposite is correct, the vaccination may as well reduce the risk of SIDS.
Hoffman, H. J., Hunter, J. C., Damus, K., Pakter, J., Peterson, D. R., van Belle, G., & Hasselmeyer, E. G. (1987). Diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis immunization and sudden infant death: results of the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development Cooperative Epidemiological Study of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome risk factors. Pediatrics, 79(4), 598-611.
Mitchell, E. A., Stewart, A. W., & Clements, M. (1995). Immunisation and the sudden infant death syndrome. New Zealand Cot Death Study Group. Archives of disease in childhood, 73(6), 498-501.
However, as people mentioned, not all studies are clear cut. However, what is clear is the risk outweighs the adverse effect; as studies have shown it is minimal.
Ellenberg, S. S., & Chen, R. T. (1997). The complicated task of monitoring vaccine safety. Public health reports, 112(1), 10.
I am PRO Polio and Measels! You vaxxers never stopped to analyze the benefits of not vaxing. It eliminates the stupid and dumb people from propagating their dumb genetics to the future generations. This is a golden opportunity to ensure our future generations will be smart, intelligent, and talmia chachomim.
I disagree, Marriage Councilors are trained professionals that assist in helping couples work through their issues without any bias.
Regardless if they are married, they were trained in that area. It’s like saying Rabbi
A Talmid Chachum is not trained and I know marriages ended because of the advice given.
I am not makpid on being a Ba’al Nefesh. I enjoy my not spoiled CS at half the price of CY.
I don’t understand how there could be any school shootings?!?! In 1996 we made schools Gun Free Zones and this law should have stopped any guns being carried in a school area.
it is sad that criminals and demented people do not follow the laws!
The only other option is to have armed peace officers or teachers that would be able to respond to such threats.Why don’t we stop talking in shul, which is considered a mini bais hamikdash and maybe we will be zoche to build the big one
DAAS: I couldn’t find a halacha on coming on-time to shul so I doubt they would ask that.
Even if they do, my ahavas yisroel of not wanting to disturb other Jews from davvening will trump my selfishness of coming on-time and talking.I’m not worried 🙂
I used to talk during davvening, but stopped.
I now come late and davveing is 2 hours for me, with some of it catching up. I have no time to talk.
In shamayim, if they ask why I came late to davvening, I will answer them that I followed Halacha where it says it is better to stay home than talk in shul. Shulchan Aruch Siman 124:7
Mentsch1: Actually, you can transfer a gun. My father died and i transferred ownership to myself.
Joseph- yes, I would even allow my child a person whose parents are off the derech. If it was good enough for Yitzchok avenu, it’s good enough for me.
Maybe start showing ahavas yisroel instead of sinas chinom towards all of our brothers and sisters; regardless of their affiliation and maybe they will see the beauty the Torah has to offer.
In reality, how many of you would allow your children to marry a Baal/baalas teshuva? It’s great for ‘yenim’ but does not ‘paast’ for me. Why would they even consider us when we are so judgemental?
Just saying that it is elul, and I must wonder if Hashem thinks of us as OTD kids. Imagine he treats us as we treat others.So of course, I am a Talmud Chacham, but my wife isn’t the daughter of one. Neither did she go to seminary! It did not occur to me in my feeble daas at the time that this could be a potential issue. Our teenage son is now on the path to becoming Modern. I am thinking my wife may be the cause as her father and her upbringing are insufficient! I am klehring that it may be time to divorce her as it just doesn’t ‘past’ for us to be together, if our offspring will not be capable of handling the true Ol Torah. Considering the shidduch crisis, where there is a 20% surplus of single, worthy bnos yisroel waiting for their bashert, I am klehring if Hakadosh Boruch Hu is giving me the machshava to marry a more worthy woman and doing a lofty chesed of providing a young single woman the zechus to bear children from a Talmid chacham. Perhaps then, we can be zoche to bring true Talmidei Chacochim in this world?
It is time: But we do have some idea e.g.( Hilchos Parah Adumah 3:4 ): We are talking about how he will run the government and it’s army. Not bring korbabos etc.
It is time: You are contracting the navi as it says in Shmuel 1 that Hashem tore the kingdom from Shual and gave it to Dovid because he did not kill the Amalek king. In addition, you are contradicting the gemara in Eiruvin 53b that clearly says hashem forgave him for the massacre of Nov. The chida explains why they deserved to be killed. Can you please provide a gemara that you are quoting that contradicts this gemara?
As I also stated before, the Mosha in Sotah perek 8 misha 8 clearly states a bride can even go to war. Is there an opposing mishna?
You are also distorting the posek of Lo Silbash to your own needs. There is no lo silbosh for women to own or even carry a gun. A gun is not a men’s attire that is designed for men.It is time: “Foolish. One of rare times the gemara is darush Ta’amei D’kra.” —Again, you are distorting the torah. The torah clearly says not to have a lot of horses because “”You are not to go back that way again” Nothing about war chariots. The end result, Shlomo probably married the Egyptian princess on one of his trips down to Egypt and she caused shlomo a lot of problems. The posek also says HE cannot own, but nothing about war chariots or army. If you believe otherwise, please provide a SOURCE, not mere words. And again, Shlomo’s son lost the kingdom NOT because of Lo Yarbeh, but because of high taxes. Again, please see Malachim 1 for details.
Have you learned Yeshaya Chapter 11??? It has nothing to do with Moshiachs political or military responsibilities. It discusses how he will be a tzadik and he will gather the jews. Again- HOW will moshiach rule? Will he be a true monarch or will there be a democracy? Please provide a source.
Avi: Source is The chida in pesach einaim Erivin, Daf Peh heh
it is time: “When the chashmonaim battled the yevanim to defend religion and freedom, did women fight? Were they even permitted? !
In Dovid Hamelech’s army, did women fight? Were they even permitted? !
In kibush ha’aretz under Yehoshua and later,did women fight?Were they even permitted? !”That is two separate questions: Did they fight? No. Were they permitted? Yes. Again, please see the mishna.
It is time” So Nov Ir Hakohanim deserved death for disobeying shaul?” Yes. According to the meforshim, they were Mored B’ma;chus. Please see the Chida (pesach einaim) on this where the mere fact they allowed Dovid to use the Urim Vtmim, King Shaul ruled they were Mored Bmalchs and deserved to die.
It is time: Who knows what will be when Moshiach comes. He may well be just like Queen Elizabeth or he may be like a real king. I do not presume to know what will be when Moshiach comes. All I am stating is the halachic requirements of what a Jewish Army can be comprised of. Will we have Korbanous? Who knows and I do not worry about it. My job is to make sure I do my part for him to come. What Moshiach decides after, it is up to him.
It is time: What does Devorim have to do with anything? It has nothing to do with an Army, but with horses, wives and gold. Also, after Saul, Israel had a regular standing army in addition to citizen solders were required to serve to fill the ranks. In Malachim 1, Perek 10 has Shlomo Hamelech have 1400 chariots and 12,000 horsemen. The pasuk says he stationed them in certain cities to show that this is a REGULAR STANDING ARMY who were stationed throughout Israel and not just Citizen solders who are called into battle..
Please try to keep your posts shorter. Thank you