Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Write or Wrong–“reallynow-I find it interesting that one of the posters who was accusatory and critical of a parent of an OTD child, would be so quick to start their own thread on the same subject”
I find it interesting that a mother who is so desperately looking for a zechus/refuah/yeshuah for her otd son, would be so willing to speak loshon hara on another poster…
What books will your students be reading this year? Not sure if you still need book suggestions but here are some books you might want to consider (if not for now, then for the future):
The Giver by Lois Lowry
Charlotte’s Web by E.B. White
Oh, The Places You’ll Go by Dr. Seuss
The Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson Burnett
A Little Princess by Frances Hodgson Burnett
“”Perhaps it is you who are/were off the derech, and have a lot of unresolved anger.””
Could be but if that is it true then it is you that could benefit from my experience/hindsight.
“”As far as my son making decisions for himself, he was not a little child at the time. He was much older, and when he refused to switch schools, he actually had a valid reason for wanting to stay. So we let him, but we gave him the option of changing his mind if he wanted to.””
thank you for agreeing with me…
“”You are so wrong on all fronts, that I don’t have the time to refute all your distorted conclusions””
could be but if you reread the post then you will find that I offered no conclusions, I merely suggested that there are other underlying issues that need to be looked at (based on what you have already stated previously) in order to resolve the situation at hand. I am sorry if I offended you, it was not my intention to do so:(
Disclaimer: please note that i am not attempting to blame or offend wow (or anyone else) in any way for anything with this post but I am trying to help her understand that there are deeper things going on and that if she understands that then it would help her move forward…
Wow, according to you– your son didnt want to go to karate/music/art/etc lessons when he was younger and he didnt want to switch schools even though he was being bullied. In other words, your son was fully in control over his life and what he did or didnt do when he was say 6,8,10,12 etc. So now he is 16 and is once again taking control over his life just like he is used to doing and decided that he didnt want to be frum anymore. Why are you complaining? If it is true that you allowed him to make major life decisions at a younger age and never complained about it then you should do the same thing now and be happy and supportive of his decisions now.
Wow, I believe you mentioned that you have a sister who is not Haredi (yet you are haredi), correct? you also mentioned that you havent told your parents about your son being otd, right? If both of these things are true then I have a question for you. Did you become a bal teshuva at some point in your life and your parents fought against it but you still wanted to be frum so you went against their wishes and did what you wanted? Or did you grow up haredi and your sister rebelled against it and is no longer haredi today? If the first one is true and you became frum, then perhaps you feel embarrassed by it and have to “save face” now to your family (and friends, relative, community etc). If the latter is true however, and your sister went off the derech then it would mean that there is some sort of history in your family that you would have to look into.
and finally, wow, since you have a background in psychology then you know that you cant help anyone unless they want the help. It doesnt look like your son wants the help so there is nothing you can do for him. You can however help yourself by seeing a therapist and working through the pain you are experiencing but that is all you can do (besides for loving, supporting, and accepting your son for who he is but that you already know:). Remember, you need to uncover in order to recover…
I do have a suggestion for you if you are willing to try something more radical though which I think may be able to help you understand your son a little better but I am hesitant to share it with you since its a little out of the box. let me know if you are interested though and I will def share it with you.
Aries2756, My need was not to be right but to help wow. I have tried to respond but the mods have obviously not approved my post. if the mods are picking sides right now and not allowing for an honest conversation to take place then perhaps they should just close this thread since its been six months and the situation has gotten worse, not better. if all wow wants is chizuk and a pat in the back then perhaps its time for her to find a support group of parents who are going through this in her neighborhood.
Wow, aries2756, Imma613, I was referring to a different situation as I keep saying over and over again. Syag Lchochma was nice enough to point out that the information I had was off– It was off because I was talking about someone else, someone who btw does not drink, smoke, or do drugs BH. so yes, while there may be some similarities there are also differences you just need to pay attention to it. aries2756 said, sometimes you need to take a step back and look at things from a different perspective which is exactly what I was hoping Wow would do but she couldnt get it past her that there are others who are going through the same thing as she is and that she is not the only one in this situation:( Her dismissive attitude made me wonder if this is how her son felt when he came to her with a problem. I am not blaming Wow for anything right now, I am simply explaining my view on this situation.
“”A shoemaker does not make the best pair of shoes for himself and a doctor should never try to heal himself””
Aries2756, I completely agree with you which is why I said that wow should find a therapist to help her deal with the pain she is in… (and along the same lines, a mother should not diagnose her own child especially a child who does not openly communicate with the mother)
And Wow, aries2756, imma613, and everyone else– yes, you have to dig a little deeper (even if it hurts) in order to fix the problem instead of just putting a band aid on it…
WOW, yup, you got me… you are the only mother of an otd/at-risk 16 year old who has ever uttered any of those words or quotes as you call them. yup, you certainly have a background in psychology…
I used to wonder what the real problem is with so many individuals going otd but now I think I have a better idea of what is really going on..
WOW, if you re-read my post very carefully you will find that I was not referring to you in any way, I was talking about a problem that a friend of mine has so yes, I am deeply hurt and offended that you would even think that I was referring to your situation and that you defended yourself rather than listening to what i was saying and offering advice as requested:( There are tons of families that are in similar situations that you are in but I asked you for advice since you already tried so many things and I figured you can tell me what actually works. Btw, if you would be the only one going through this then there would not be a need for all these organizations that exist solely to help at-risk teens.
WOW, you have a background in psychology? Awesome! I have a huge problem and need advice… Ok, its not really my problem but you see I have a friend who has a 16 year old son who decided that he was no longer interested in being frum. He used to be a great boy who learned torah all day long, I mean for 12 hours a day-can you believe that?!?! He used to wear a white shirt and black pants, go to minyan, keep shabbos and was very respectful to his parents and family. He got bullied in school sometimes and the RY was also someone who was very tough on the boys but my friend didnt really do anything about it because he was sitting and learning so she figured thats the only thing that mattered and everything else would somehow solve itself. Additionally, he was very musically and artistically inclined but he never did any extra-curricular activities because well, boys like him have to learn torah for 12 hours a day, what does he need anything else for? so basically, he was an excellent frum, yeshiva boy and my friend never had any problems with him.
That changed. first he did not want to go to yeshiva, then he wanted to wear jeans and t-shirt that nebbich the goyim wear:( he made new friends with some street kids who were apparently a bad influence on him because eventually he stopped coming home some nights and slept all day etc. then to make matters worse, he got a piercing. how embarrassing for my friend:( now he is disrespectful and angry, is on his computer all day (he bought himself a computer) and is basically doing whatever he wants.
my friend is at her wits end. she offered to send him to college, karate classes, sports, even low pressured yeshivas where they can wear whatever they want and learn part of the time and maybe do creative activities the rest of the day etc anything to get him to change his behavior and become frum again but to no avail. he does not want to do anything without his street friends and he certainly doesnt want to see a therapist.
my friend is hurt and broken while her husband is angry at the whole situation. she has other children that could probably need help but they are still very frum and learn torah (in fact, her 12 year old learns for 10 hours a day) and besides, they see how horrible the 16 year old is and how much pain he causes their parents so my friend decided that they definitely would not follow in his footsteps. so my friend thinks its ok for the other children to continue with their lives as is even though they are traumatized by the situation and refuses to put them into therapy or allow them to participate in extra-curricular activities.
anyway, to make a long story short, my friend has already spoken to a rav and a therapist on how to deal with the son (who she thinks is depressed but has never had him officially evauluated) but still nothing has changed, in fact things seem to be getting worse:( a lot of people have suggested so many things but she is not really receptive to anything (i personally think that she is in so much pain that she can’t really think straight anymore). she also lives in a very hareidi community and she is terrified that it will effect the shidduchim for her other children-if it hasnt already…
WOW, she desperately needs help, what do you suggest she do?
“”You can ask a therapist what to do about the depression, and how to handle it””
SMC, from what I have read, it seems as though her son has never been seen/diagnosed by a therapist so saying that he is suffering from depression is a self-diagnosis by someone who is obviously not educated in psychology and should not be diagnosing anyone especially her own son. Furthermore, I would hope that a therapist would insist on seeing/evaluating wow’s son prior to offering anyone advice on how to deal with any mental health issue.
Wow, Crossroads Jerusalem is in Israel. they may be able to help you directly or refer you to organizations closer to your city.
also, just out of curiousity, why would you resist going to therapy yourself or taking your whole family to see a family therapist? is it possible that you have a negative association to therapy that your son is mirroring now with his refusal to see a therapist?
Wow, have you ever heard of a program called, Crossroads Jerusalem? They have a “Street Art Outreach Program” that may help your son.
From their website—
Homeless and at-risk teens in Jerusalem are out on the streets, getting into trouble, becoming more and more isolated and have lost hope for a positive future.
What they need is someone to listen and care, who offers them a chance to express their feelings and fears, and is there to give support and information about a full range of services available. Our staff understands and is ready to help kids deal with their difficulties.
You can try to reach out to Crossroads staff to see if they would be willing to help your son (and his friends).
Wow, you seem to be in a lot of pain… have you ever considered therapy for yourself? meaning, seeing a therapist for the purpose of dealing with your pain rather than seeing a therapist for the purpose of helping your son. My guess is that there are deeper issues within yourself and/or your relationship with your husband that need to be dealt with…
Also, from what you are saying, it seems as your other children are traumatized by what is going on at home. have you considered therapy for them so that they can learn how to deal with their emotions in a healthy manner?
My guess would be that your entire family would benefit from therapy, perhaps you can find a family therapist and have him/her meet with your entire family(even if your 16 year old son will refuse to participate for now, you still have the rest of your family to worry about). you can try to find a therapist that is familiar with the Bowen Model or perhaps someone who specializes in Structural Family Therapy and see where that leads you…
smc, I am sorry that you are going through that. i am not sure where you are located but if you are in Brooklyn then there are safe programs for individuals like you. you can try going to Our Place and speak to a counselor there. they can probably assist you in finding a therapist or anything else that you may need. I have also heard of Yeshiva Simchas Chaim but I am not sure if it is for you at this point.
Again, I am not sure where you are located but there is also a program called Priority 1 located in Cedarhurst, NY that may be able to help you.
Good Luck!
Wow, you said it right, Hashem is running the show. Hashem decided that your son should become one of those street people and you have to accept that. I know its hard but as you keep saying over and over again, there is nothing you can do about the situation. so just accept it and move on…
Wow, I am really sorry to hear that his identity until now was learning torah and wearing black and white clothing and now that he has shed this “identity” he has nothing else to fall back on, no developed skills, no developed talents, nothing. I guess he feels empty and has absolutely no reason to get out of bed these days. I dont blame him…That is a sad, sad situation to be in:( Perhaps you can send him to a kibbutz where he can learn to work the fields or perhaps learn how to fish or something similar to that. of course, I am assuming your answer will be that you want him to be religious and so going to a kibbutz is out of the question but I think for now you need to overlook religion (or find a religious kibbutz)and focus on his mental health. give him a real reason to wake up in the morning and working on a farm will def give him a good reason to do so. plus, it will keep him safe and away from the street people you seem to despise.
regardless of whether you take my advice or not, i think that your other children are in danger as well (even if it seems that they are doing ok right now, they may be faking it and waiting to see what happens with their older brother before becoming rebellious themselves). are they also too busy learning torah to take classes that will help them develop their skills and talents that Hashem gave them? what will you do if one of them starts acting out in the future? the least you could do, is give them a chance now, put them in karate classes or on sports teams or let them learn how to play an instrument etc. so they develop their self-esteem now instead of falling through the holes later.
another form of reverse psychology would be to go see a movie with him. then go out to eat with him and discuss the movie at length. you can try it with different things like going to a concert of his choice etc. yes, you may have to swallow your disgust at what the movie is portraying or the music he is listening to but on the positive side, your son will realize that watching a movie or going to a concert is no big deal for you and his rebellion will be moot since you are showing him that it has no effect on you. it may also open the door to communication between the two of you and perhaps if he sees you accepting his choices then he will be open to accepting yours.
Wow, it seems as though you are contradicting yourself.. on the one hand you are saying that he is emotionally unhealthy and on the other hand you are saying that he is simply lazy so I am not sure what the real case is here if he truly has a mental illness or not. have you given up on him?
You say that he has many talents but has never attended any classes–is there a reason for that? perhaps he feels that it is too late to start anything?
perhaps, instead of just offering to send him to karate classes which may or may not interest him, you can do as I suggested and find several different brochures of programs that he may be interested in–maybe music since that is what he is into these days. again, dont offer to send him anywhere, just give him the brochures (of several different programs so he has options) and see if that sparks an interest in him. he may yet surprise you…
perhaps you can try some sort of reverse psychology by getting your other children to participate in extra-curricular non-threatening or non-religious activities like karate, kickboxing or swimming and when he sees how much they enjoy it he may be compelled to join them in their activities.
Wow, Can you please elaborate on what kind of extra-curricular activities he has already done?
I would think that any boy who tries karate would feel empowered by it and would want to continue with it until he gets his black belt (and perhaps beyond that as well) Karate teaches self-discipline/respect which he seems to be lacking at the moment… it would also provide him with a healthy alternative to relieve his stress/anger while simultaneously helping his self-esteem issues.
also, perhaps he is more artistic and would want to take art classes? or woodworking classes?
Perhaps he likes to cook and would enjoy taking culinary/pastry classes?
perhaps he is musically inclined and would be interested in learning how to play an instrument or two and start/join a band?
perhaps he enjoys swimming and would be interested in becoming a lifeguard?
perhaps he enjoys working with cars and can find an auto mechanic shop where he can be an apprentice and learn all about cars?
perhaps he likes computers and would benefit from a computer programming class?
You can find several different programs/classes (like the ones listed above) that you would approve of and just hand him the brochures and let him decide if he wants to take any of the classes or not. dont pressure or force him into it, like you said-the decision to attend these classes has to come from him. its really up to you to show him that there are tons of things that he can do and that you would be willing to support him if he chooses to attend any of the classes. You never know if he will take you up on the offer or not but you can at least try.
Good Luck!!
Wow, I have not read all of the posts in this discussion yet so I apologize in advance if this has already been discussed but I was wondering if there was a way to get your son to participate in some sort of sports activity i.e. joining a soccer or basketball team since it builds character and gives youth a sense of purpose among other things. Also, if sports is not his thing, then perhaps he would be interested in theatre whether it may be for acting, singing, or even playwriting, directing, set design etc. perhaps he is good at stand-up comedy and would enjoy doing that professionally? None of these things go against the torah and may help strengthen his yiddishkeit. If there are no teams/theatres in your community that he can join, then perhaps you can help him start one from scratch and build it up from there. That would probably help other teenagers that are in the same situation as he is which will help with his self-esteem/anger issues as well.