Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Although it would be beneficial to maintain Yiddish, the “facts on the ground” in the Chareidi community in Eretz Yisrael are that Hebrew has been accepted as the lingua franca. Whether we like it or not, nearly all Bais Yaakov elementary and high schools in the country are teaching in Hebrew. The Chazon Ish himself had a hand in this decision to teach in Hebrew. Of course, there are plenty of private schools that teach in Yiddish. Nearly all of the students in these schools come from Yiddish speaking homes. And it is a parent’s and community’s right to perpetuate this, if they so wish.
So, if the girls are not learning Yiddish at home or in school, their future homes will also be Hebrew speaking. These are the facts of life today, and have been for quite some time. Any sort of posturing and prevaricating that it is not so is simply ignoring the truth. There are many Chassidishe groups as well as the “Old Yishuv” Yerushalmim that are working hard to maintain Yiddish in their communities. (Chassidei Gur are a notable exception. They have mostly given up on Yiddish.) Decades ago, you could find many youngsters who could not communicate in Hebrew. Nowadays, teenagers and older have managed to learn Hebrew (most of the Yerushalmim work, so only Yiddish would be a huge handicap).
The Mirrer Yeshiva in Yerushalayim recently switched over from Yiddish to Hebrew for the shiur klali in the Beis Hamedrash. And don’t think that some “kanoyim” (NK outsiders, not anyone in the yeshiva itself) didn’t protest. Many of the regular “daily” shiurim have already been said in Hebrew for a very long time. In general, the Gedolei Torah have decided that today insisting on Yiddish is not an issue.
So, whether we like it or want to admit it or not, it appears that Hebrew has become the spoken language of most of the Chareidim in Eretz Yisroel. Along with a sizeable population that is still maintaining Yiddish.
80 years ago, there was a fierce kulturkampf about the languages, today, because of Gedolei Yisroel’s decisions, the majority of Chareidim are speaking Hebrew. “The battle has shifted to other areas.” (The Chazon Ish responding to some Yerushalmi kanoyim who came to his house to argue with him about his decision to allow Hebrew.)
נהרא נהרא ופשטיהNearly 40 years ago, I heard the Lakewood Mashgiach Reb Nosson zt”l say more than once that the Rishonim “sanctified” Yiddish to a certain degree, somewhat like the status of Aramaic in the times of Chazal. It’s likely many others heard him say this as well.
Be that as it may, if the language is not spoken in the home, it’s an extra burden on a child in school to have to learn it. Yiddish has it’s value, but we need to approach the question using a broad outlook. School/cheder is hard enough as it is. There’s no point in torturing a child unnecessarily.
To all those who harbor a visceral disdain for Yiddish. Ask yourselves, if Ladino and other Middle Eastern languages and dialects that were developed by those Jewish communities (e.g., Kurdish Jews have their own languege) If are kosher — so is Yiddish.It depends what is meant by “half kiruv.” If it means “half observance,” well, most BTs don’t keep everything all at once. Could be they’re not required to “take the plunge” and as of tomorrow morning to behave like 100% frum Jews. All the experts recommend taking things slowly . So, in that sense, the “all or nothing approach” is not a good idea.
But, if we’re talking about “half commitment” in terms of what the potential BT should be taught, this is where the question arises. Teach them “halfway,” but teenage boys and girls mingling socially is not a problem, well, I’d say that the “mekarever” himself needs “kiruv.” Here we are getting back to the old saw about “one man’s extremist is the other man’s ehrlicher Yid.”
It’s one thing to teach total commitment even if observance is presently only at half or quarter-throttle. It’s quite another to teach someone from the outset that certain halachos, customs and behavior is just for “those fanatics or extremists.” The former is OK, The latter is a reprehensible distortion of Torah.This matter of using tactics that originated in Eretz Yisroel and Yerushalayim in Chutz La’aretz is highly questionable at best. Problem is if you view the U.S. as the Promised Land, you’ll feel that we are the masters of the land, or at leaset “our” neighborhoods. Therefore “we can do what we like” without fear of any backlash from the host gentiles. I think an honest assessment would indicate otherwise. It would be prudent to consult da’as Torah about these sort of demonstrations in Money, Lakewood, or anywhere else in the U.S. The U.S.A. in general has been extraordinarily benevolent to our people, kein yirbu, including for the most part allowing the frum Jews to live our lives as we see fit. Let’s not wear out our welcome and cause friction and animosity that might not be sanctioned by halachah and might not be very smart.
Should we be concerned about the growth and anti-Torah indoctrination that the secular movements — schools in Israel (and the rest of the world) are implementing? More babies are born every year to secular Jews than to Chareidi families. The Rosh Yeshiva Rav E.M. Shach zt”l seemed despondent one day late in the summer. In response to his students’ query, he replied that today is Sept. 1 — a million Yiddishe kinder are being taken to the slaughterhouse (that’s what he called it) that they call “schools” (i.e., the start of the new school year for the secular schools). And I shouldn’t be sad??
That’s what should bother us.
As far as the NK kooks who hobnob with murderers — on the one hand it is VERY serious; on the other hand, they are a disturbed pack of pathetic folk whom I’m certain that in the Oilam Ha’emes Reb Yoilish zt”l is condemning for “speaking in his (Reb Yoilish’s) name. The local NK in Yerushalayim and the Beis Din of the Eida Chareids do not call for any kind of consorting with the PLO or other murderers of Yidden. It is only the chutz la’artez based lunatic fringe of NK that is doing this.What’s the big deal here? A clueless editor or reporter for this website saw a guy in a while shirt and decided he’s a “yeshiva bochur” even though he said quite cldarly on the video that he’s a university student. This student/bochur said something the editors/promoters of the website didn’t like – even though the Israeli Shabak held the same opinion (not to place metal detectors on Har Habayis) — and proceeded to castigate this poor fellow. Some people just can’t pass up the opportunity to make someone Chareidi look or sound foolish and if he looks like a yeshiva bochur all the more so! Someone rushed to judgement on the entire story, and YWN is now eating crow.
Admit that a mistake was committed, take down the article with the video, and move on. Sheesh!! All this talk about a non-issue.Avi K, you and some others persist in trying to persuade the Chareidi community, by somehow thinking you can turn to the community without the Rabbonim “interfering.” But, I’ll say it again. You are wasting your time. Just like you are wasting your time citing a lengthy essay by someone (Rabbi Melamed) who has zero standing in the Chareidi community. I’m not trying to upset or antagonize you. I’m certain that he’s a fine person, although I wish I could figure out why he likes to dress up in clerical garb, that is reminiscent of the galus. But, at the end of the day, his opinion in Torah matters does not carry any weight in the larger Chareidi community. The Chareidim (at least the ones that I know) are not losing sleep over the fact that the national religious don’t do as we do. We are not going out of our way to “proselytize” anyone. Yes, it’s painful to us and unfortunate that the dati leumi don’t obey da’as Torah. But, it’s not an obsession among the Chareidim to persuade them to accept it. We understand that most will not, indeed cannot accept the da’as Torah of the Sages. In fact, until a few years ago, the dati leumi refused to acknowledge the very concept of “Gedolei Torah” and “da’as Torah” altogether. Used to be that a politician’s or a MK’s opinion about Torah and halacha was considered equivalent (or even better) than that of a rabbi, even a gadol beTorah. The dati leumi rabbis back then realized that they had to accept this state of affairs, and, as a rule, refrained from issuing public statements on matters of public policy. Just as a reminder, didn’t Rav Soloveichik from Boston write in his book that there’s no such thing as “da’as Torah?” Today, the situation has changed somewhat. The dati leumi community learns much more than in the past, and this has most likely has had a positive influence. A new generation is growing up realizing that rabbinical opinion is more important that was previously thought or admitted. So, yes, many in the dati leumi community consult and follow rabbinical opinion more than their parents’ generation did.
But, to try to persuade me and the rest of the Chareidi tzibbur to abandon the Batei Medrash and join the army – based on an essay written by someone whom I and the rest of the Chareidi tzibbur do not consider to be a “bar-plugta” of the Gedolei haTorah? It’s as pointless as it is absurd. You need to meet with and (try to) persuade the Gedelei Torah to change their minds. I imagine that there is not much chance of that happening, but that is the ONLY way to make such a seismic change among the Chareidim: that only if the Gedolim change their opinions about learning vs. army service. But, given the current situation, the same way I understand that you are not going to forsake Rav Melamed and start following Rav Chaim Kanievsky and the other Gedolei Torah (although I wish you would!). Similarly, you ought to understand and accept that the Chareidi tzibbur is not going to abandon those whom it understands to be the Gedolei Hador, and whose opinions to be da’as Torah. Especially by citing the words of someone who has no rabbinical standing in the Chareidi world. The only possibility would be discussing it with the Gedolim. And as you probably realize, the chances of getting them to change their minds on this is probably nil. So, accept the situation. The same way the Chareidim accept the unfortunate situation that so many people disobey the opinion of the Gedolei Torah.Joseph, the OP asked how an authentically Jewish army should look and act. Your first reply sounded like there’s no way for it to be kosher al pi Torah. There can be no such thing until Moshiach comes. So, here’s my question: are you therefore advocating to nevertheless leave it as is due to the concern for sakanas nefashos of 7 million Yidden living here? Or are you saying that since it is tarfus, best to disband it altogether. There are no other possibilities (“tdaddim”) here. The former stance is the position of the gedolei Torah world-wide. And I believe Rav Yoilish mi’Satmar zt”l would concur that pikuach nefesh is paramount. Or are you saying that since it is treif, it should be disbanded, and we should all be abandoned to our fate. I suppose you are entitled to maintain such an opinion, but know that there is not even one Talmid Chochom alive today that advocates that position. And if you insist that Rav Yoilish zt”l holds like this latter opinion, well, here too, I suppose you are entitled to your reading and interpretation of the sefer. No one else has to, and in fact, no living Talmid Chochom advocates dismantling the state or the IDF. Should you wish to argue Rav Yoilish zt”l was greater than anyone alive today, I might even agree with you. Yet the darkei pesak halacha (yachid vs. rabbim, etc.) require us to obey today’s living Talmidei Chachomim who pasken in favor of pikuach nefesh.
And if you are saying that in the zechus of dismantling the abhorrent zionist entity and its treife mixed army, we will be zoiche to the geula ha’shleima. Well, i might give that some credence if even ONE adam gadol also said it. In my nearly 4 decades living here, I’ve never heard anyone who is considered da’as Torah say such a thing. You can sit comfortably in the U.S. and champion your own opinions if you like. Just know that you are doing something very similar to certain groups who consider themselves Orthodox and “frum” who cite the writings of this or that rav or other, in justification of their deviations and doing whatever they want. You can cite VaYoel Moshe in a similar fashion. Not I nor anyone else are required to agree with your interpretations. All of us who are following da’as Torah of the living gedolei Torah are on solid ground.
Personally, I would agree that, still, it’s an unfortunate state of affairs. We can and should try to work on it, as I already wrote in my previous post.So Joseph thinks we are still in the 1920s or earlier, when we have the luxury of arguing whether or not to “declare” a state. Of course, before there was a state, nearly all Gedolei Yisroel opposed setting one up, especially one run by atheists, r”l. Unfortunately, their advice was not heeded, and so, today, we are faced with a fait accompli. It’s here, whether we like it or not. And many of us, myself included, most assuredly do not.
Some people still think we can “undo” the damage that the state has wrought by somehow “turning back the clock.” Something like “System Restore” in Windows. By advocating “going back” to some earlier state of existence that was before the state of Israel was declared.
So, as I’ve asked in the past, to those who would want to perform a “reset.” To what or to whom would you like to “go back?” The British Mandate? Maybe the Ottoman Empire? Or maybe the Byzantines or perhaps the Roman Empire?
THERE’S NOTHING AND NO ONE TO GO BACK TO!
And aside from a few NK fruitballs, not one gadol anywhere in the world today advocates trying to “turn the clock” back politically to some previous non-Jewish rulers. There are some who profess to be following what they think the Satmar Rov zt”l would hold. He has unfortunately not been among us for nearly 40 years, and we cannot ask him what he would say about today’s situation. We do, however, have living gedolei Torah, NONE of whom advocate disbanding the existing state. We are talking about pikuach nefesh of 7 million or so Yidden living here, surrounded by blood thirsty enemies who would be pleased to have some kind of power vacuum in “occupied Palestine,” so they could move in and slaughter every Jew living here: frum ones included. This pathetic fantasy that some entertain that somehow, the frum Jews could negotiate a “separate peace” with ISIS or the Palestinian Authority, or any of the other gangs of murderers (because 80 years ago, the frum Jews opposed setting up a State) is patently absurd, dangerous, and is NOT advocated by ANY gadol, and rav of stature, not even the Eida Chareidis. Here too, the vituperation of a handful of NK nut jobs is not considered to be a valid halachic opinion by anyone with his head screwed onto his shoulders. Just look at what’s been going on in Syria for the past 6 years or so, what the various different groups are inflicting on each other. We are surrounded by vicious enemies waiting for the opportunity to destroy all of us, including the frum yidden, r”l.
There is, unfortunately, no political alternative right now to the present state of affairs. We cannot afford the luxury of disbanding the existing structures, and this unfortunately includes the IDF.
We can, however, and must work to spread more and more Torah among the people, worldwide as well as in Eretz Yisroel. More shiurim, more mosdos, more kiruv. More light of Yiddishkeit to the masses who hunger for ruchnius, for the emes.
And of course, to ceaselessly beseech Hashem Yisborach to bring about the Geula HaSheleima with the arrival of Moshiach Tzidkeinu beme’heira be’yomeinu!“… a gadol hador must also have extensive secular knowledge, etc.”
In which “Handbook for (Prospective) Gedolei Hador” does it say that? I’ll reiterate what I wrote previously. It’s not a popularity contest or an election. It’s the consensus of leading rabbonim at any given time who among them is the biggest expert. The “vote” and even the opinion of laymen and certainly amei-ha’aretz do not count for much in arriving at this determination.
Checking back to the OP’s question. I sincerely think YWN needs to take a long, hard look in the mirror and decide if this website is a chareidi yeshiva website or is it going to be a mouthpiece for other brands of Orthodox. I realize that there might be financial considerations regarding sponsors, advertisers, etc. And perhaps even particular ideological inclinations of the site owners. One thing is certain: MO/Dati Leumi folks are likely not too interested in the latest Satmar wedding, Melave Malka by the Rachmastrivska Rebbe, or hespedim that were delivered in Ponevitz Yeshiva a few days ago. On the other hand, chareidi yeshiva types are not eagerly in need of information on the latest group of American kids volunteering for the IDF, or the most recent group of fighter pilots who just graduated their training course in the Israeli Air Force, or the latest marathon conducted in Tel Aviv or even in Jerusalem. The founders of Chareidi media a century ago or so understood that the ultimate purpose of said media (back then it was just newspapers; today of course, there are also websites, video clips, etc.) was to propagate the Chareidi hashkafa as a counterweight to all the other “hashkafos” that were (are!) inundating the Jewish world. It’s really not possible to satisfy everyone and every hashkafa. So, YWN has to decide what it’s identity should be. A Chareidi website that, forgive me but, nearly constantly and consistently criticizes the Chareid tzibur as a tzibur is placing itself in the realm of other English “Orthodox/frum” sites who will remain unnamed (but everyone knows who they are) who feel that pathological Chareidi-bashing is practically a mitzva. I’m not saying that we are above criticism. On the contrary, but a public website is not the place for it. We are a heavily maligned (some say threatened) minority in the Jewish world. At least we should stick up for ourselves. When so much of the “Jewish” world is searching with magnifying glasses to uncover and (very often) exaggerate any and every flaw of ours — real or made-up — the proper response of this website would be to counter their claims by aggrandizing the commitment, sincerity, dedication of the Chareidi world to Torah and mitzvos, to chessed, to kiruv, etc. No one reads YWN to obtain general news, including Zionist news. All that is readily available elsewhere. What is not so common is Torah-true hashkafa that reflects the general Chareidi outlook as espoused by the Gedolei Torah. So many of my acquaintances snicker in derision when I mention the YWN website. I’ll spare you the comments most of them make about “(you’re kidding!) THAT website??!? It’s not even a Chareidi site!” I know from reading so many other comments posted by others that I’m not alone in this sentiment. A minor overhaul of YWN’s editorial positions will go a very long way toward a serious upgrade of the site. And, le’ma’an Hashem, please stop imitating those other “religious” websites with their pathological Chareidi-bashing. As Shlomo HaMelech stated, ??? ??? ????? — a person is what he praises; and reveals his true nature by what he praises.
Hatzlacha rabba!!
P.S. — although it wasn’t planned, I guess a gantze megilla is in the spirit of Purim!
Regarding the OP’s question. “Who is the Gadol Hador?” (There can be more than one, BTW.) This is not a popularity contest, or a democratic electoral system. The biggest, the greatest Talmidei Chachomim in a given generation all know who — among them — is the biggest expert. That person is the Gadol Hador.
Both Rabbis Kook wore “the dress of paritzim” (i.e., levush chareidi). So, I guess at least Rav Tzvi Yehuda did feel was better than an IDF uniform — which obviously didn’t exist in the senior Rav Kook’s time.
“when Rav Shaar Yishuv Cohen zatsal came to a wedding in uniform nudniks complained about the way he was dressed. Rav Tzvi Yehuda asked why the dress of paritzim was better.”
BTW, the very same dress (style of garments) that both Rav Tzvi Yehuda and his father wore.
I see. So, the SS criminals who emptied canisters of cyanide crystals down the chute at Auschwitz were just “people who worked for the German state.” Or NKVD/KGB agents who treated our fellow Jews savagely were “just people who worked for the Soviet state.” Seriously? We remain adamant in our thanks to Hashem for all that He has done for us. At the same time, we refuse to give homage to the wicked people (Jews!) who ran the state apparatus 60+ years ago who perpetrated spiritual genocide against our fellow religious Jews. All attempts to obfuscate their crimes will not succeed.
Utah: “…the State of Israel does a lot of good for the Jewish people. The state gives funding to yeshivas and other Jewish institutions.”
If a murderer shoots a number of people, and at one point, he decides, “OK, I’ll let some of these folks live.” Should we sing the praises of this murderer for not shooting them all? Killing some people and sparing a few — is that reason to show gratitude?
The state has spiritually (and physically…) murdered so many immigrants over the years. This is not ancient history; it happened only about 60-80 years ago. And they still try to do it whenever they can get away with it. The majority of the secular population of Israelis are the result of spiritually murdering them or their parents/grandparents. So, ring a ding ding, they allow a few religious schools to flourish, not nearly at the same level of subsidy as the ‘murdering’ (secular) schools. So, should we be grateful to the spiritual murderers of so many of our fellow Jews?
???? ??????? ???? ?? ??????
Hence, according to Chazal, whatever good the state has done is outweighed by the spiritual destruction that it has deliberately wrought among the Jewish people. We are grateful to Hashem that He caused them to spare us and our families. But, the spiritual wasteland they have created surely does not deserve a drop of praise from any of us.
LU: “It sounds like you were saying that he would have approved of a deal with the Arabs at his time?”
Before 1948,the majority of the gedolei Torah were opposed to the idea of Jews declaring sovereignty in E.Y. This of course, primarily meant not declaring a state.
After the atheists, along with some “religious” assistants disregarded the gedolim’s opinion, and declared the state, a certain change took place.
The Chazon Ish zt”l held that we are anyway “partnered” with tje seculars even if we don’t want to be. (He did not rule that frum Yidden have to pack up and leave E.Y. because of this). For that, and other reasons, the Chazon Ish held to vote for a party in the Knesset and in the local municipalities that will see to the needs of the frum community. This was and is alos the opinion of many other gedolei Torah. The Brisker Rav zt”l agreed with them regarding municipal elections, but not for national (Knesset) elections.
The Satmar Rav zt”l remained adamant in his view about not recognizing the state and zionism in general. Even after the state came into existence. Therefore, NO voting, and NO taking govt. funds for schools.
Before 1948, some of the gedolei Yerushalayim wanted to try to reach some kind of understanding with KIng Abdalla of Transjordan (the present king’s grandfather). Rav Yosef Chaim Zonnenfeld was a prime believer in this attempt, and sent Dr. Yaakv DeHaan on “secret” missions to discuss peace with the king. The secular zionists were outraged at this, and Yitzchak BenZvi and his wife, went out (were sent) to dispose of DeHaan. Actually the wife pulled the trigger and shot DeHaan ha he was leaving shul after Ma’ariv.
I don’t know if the Satmar Rav zt”l would have sought out or approved of a “deal” with any Arab states. Before 1948, it might have been a possibility. TODAY, no gadol urges such an approach. And so, neither should any of us.
Instead of arguing about intangibles, we should pool all our resources to spread Torah and mitzvos throughout E.Y. and indeed the entire world!
Health: I suggest consulting with some gedolei Torah and find out their opinion before expressing your ideas. I’ve never heard of ANY gadol suggest what you seem to be advocating. Why do you even dream that Turkey would want E.Y at all? Because the Ottoman Empire had it about 100 years ago? The Byzantines and the Romans had it even earlier than that. Well, they don’t exist anymore, you will say. Well, guess what? The Ottoman Empire doesn’t exist anymore either. Ask the president or PM of Turkey if their state is a continuation of the Ottoman Empire. You know very well what they will say. “The Ottoman Empire is gone, finished! Today’s Turkey is a modern, secular state.”
You know what there is instead? There’s Hamas, ISIS, and assorted cutthroats who would jump into any kind of power vacuum, any kind of lack of control, security in the country. They would be more than happy to c”vs massacre every Yid that they could get their hands on. INCLUDING THE FRUMME YIDDEN. Don’t delude yourself. The ISIS murderers wouldn’t blink for a moment to slaughter everyone. Before 1948 the situation was different. Today’s situation requires a different approach. We have to put up with the present political structure, with all of its serious flaws. Because any other stance, particularly the one you are advocating, is a serious danger to around 7 million Yidden living here in E.Y. Don’t believe me? Come here and arrange a meeting with Rev Chaim Kanievsky and Rav Ahron Leib Steinman. They will tell you that what we have to do is build more Torah institutions, more shiurim, more kiruv, spread more light of Yiddishkeit. That is our job. One can disdain the govt. while still caring about the Yidden, even the seculars, who live here. You don’t like this idea? That’s your prerogative. But don’t sit in the USA and criticize what the gedolim here are telling us to do.
IITFT: “Is it really like how it’s supposed to be?”
Is what really like what’s supposed to be? What “it” you referring to to?
ZD: How some people relate to gedolei Torah is the result of too much western democracy (aka “goyishe influences”). Feelings don’t transform errors into truth and correctness. I assert that the cardiac surgeon analogy is valid. Those that are not willing to accept it — well, let them ask their butcher or a cab driver whom they think is the best surgeon …
I have posted similar words on other forums on various occasions. What is this business about “deciding who is a gadol?” Do taxi drivers, butchers and carpenters decide who is the best cardiac surgeon? No. For that matter, we do not even consult medical students. The collective of cardiac surgeons all know who among them is the biggest expert. It is their opinion that counts, not the butchers or cab drivers. Regarding gadlus be’Torah, it’s similar. The Talmidei Chachomim in a particular generation all know who is the biggest expert(s) among them. Stop treating the matter as if it were some kind of popularity contest, c”v.
To Ubiquitin: Hilarious is no less spiritually degenerate than Donald. But, being a woman, she has not allowed herself to speak in quite the same manner as 2 guys who thought no one was listening. Which teaches us something important: “The microphone is *always* on….”
Have mercy on the U.S.A. and the rest of the world by keeping Hilary-ous out of the White House. Right now, the only, and rather distastful way to do it is to vote Trump.
It’s a question of voting for the lesser rasha. Trump is mushchas who at least publicly stands for what is good for America. Clinton is a mushcheses who openly declares her intent and desire to bring down the U.S.A.
We should vote for the one who will do the least damage to the U.S. and perhaps to the entire world. It’s fairly clear which candidate fits that description.
Most of the preaching against divorce takes place when the candidates, especially the wife, are unknown or not related to the advising authority. The moment the abused wife is someone’s daughter, granddaughter, niece, cousin, etc. — most of the time the opposition to divorce suddenly disappears. It now becomes a mitzva, “to save the poor wife or the children” etc.
There seems to be a point of view here that “people chose who is a gadol.” This is an error. When we wish to learn who is the best orthopedic surgeon (in say, the U.S. or in the world) do we ask the local taxi drivers? Or the butchers or grocery store owners? No, we ask the local orthopedic surgeons who among you is the best? The knowledgeable ones in the field know who among them is the biggest expert.
It’s the same when determining who is the gadol hador (there can be more than one). The talmidei chachomim of the generation all know who among them is the biggest expert. These person(s) are the gedolei hador. Any other determination is a foolish waste of time.
Furthermore, the RZ claim that “some gedolim support or supported zionism” is ludicrous, since until a few years ago, this movement denied the validity of the entire concept of a “gadol hador” who was a source of “da’as Torah.” Even nowadays, some RZ politicians openly declare that they do not and will not consult rabbonim (even “regular rabbis” who are not “gedolei hador”) in matters of “public conduct” (i.e., politics). So, to then turn around and claim, “well, we have OUR gedolim” so why don’t you (chareidim) abandon your sages and start following my sages?” is completely beyond comprehension.
yichusdik: We know that Moshe Rabbeinu and Dovid Hamelech sinned because *the Torah says so.* Not because someone figured it out or made some arbitrary statement about them. The issue of “infallibility” is simply that some people consider certain Gedolim’s opinions to be authoritative and binding. And that there is no one around today with enough cred or “plaitzes” to argue with them. Just as an example, but not meaning to exclude others, the Chofetz Chaim and the Chazon Ish come to mind. Is some fellow who learned 3-4 years in kollel in a position to argue with them either in halacha or in hashkafa? Is someone who learned 10 years in kollel in such a position? Only someone on their level is a bar plugta. So, indeed Rav Elyashiv DID argue in psak on both the Mishna Berura and the Chazon Ish. Some Chazon Ish-niks in Bnei Brak disregard any such hasagos on the Chazon Ish, claiming that he was not in a position to argue on the Chazon Ish. Rav Chaim Kanievsky does not follow every single psak of his late father-in-law! But, this is all a machlokes among gedolim and tzadikkim. Less-qualified people, even if they have semicha, for sure have no business arguing with those greater than them either in halacha or in hashkafa. The matter becomes complicated when we have a situation where I consider Rav A more qualified than Rav B whereas someone else considers the opposite to be true. It’s often nearly impossible to reconcile such disputes (“my rabbi is bigger than your rabbi”) and we just have to let people act according to their understanding. This situation is the cause of friction and dispute between religious Jews. I think that only Moshiach will have the authority to resolve such problems.
The primary axiom of the original secular zionist movement was that no longer was fealty to Torah and mitzvos a requirement for being part of the Jewish people. So, in the beginning, they promulgated the idea that “redeeming the land” — i.e., moving to E.Y., draining the swamps (which admittedly were quite numerous 120 years ago) and “settling the land” were enough to be considered “a good Jew.” Torah was for the golus; in the redeemed land, it was no longer necessary to obey the Torah, r”l. This is surely ????? ?”?.
In the past, all the various movements that were disloyal to the Chachmei HaTorah ended up breaking away from our people (e.g., Tzdukim, Karaim, followers of Shabtai Tzvi, among others) and went lost. The zionist atheists, however, have usurped (well, tried to usurp) the definition of a Jew. As a result, they are somewhat “stuck” to the body of the Jewish people. Incidentally, this is congruent with the Vilna Gaon’s description (in Even Shleimah) of the “erev rav” at the Ikvesa De’Meshicha, where he writes that this erev rav (he writes that there are different types of erev rav) will ‘stick’ to Klal Yisroel like the bran sticks to the wheat, and it will require a “great shaking” to separate them — the chaff — from the Jewish people — the wheat.
Nowadays, most secular Israelis chuckle at this “old time zionism” which has almost completely fallen into disuse, if not into disrepute. Most seculars in Israel today are just continuing as they were raised, were taught in school, and continue to be brainwashed by the rabid anti-Torah media. We ought to work hard toward spreading the light of Torah to them to save them from oblivion. ??? ?? ??? ????
Yserbius: No rav, rosh yeshiva, chassidishe rebbe, no responsible organization endorses the idea of Palestinian rule. What alternative is there? Turning the clock back to the British Mandate, the Ottomans, or perhaps the Byzantines, or maybe the Roman Empire???? There is nothing and no one to go back to. Do you have an alternative to put forth? The only way out of this mess is ????? ?’ ?????. So, the consensus da’as Torah is to stick with what there is — a severely blemished medinah. A medinah that provides at least a modicum of protection against the blood thirty hordes that would love to overrun us and slay all of us, c”v. From a ruchniyus standpoint, we have to spread more and more Torah learning, shiurim, kiruv, in order to combat the darkness of secularism.
What you refer to as the “so-called Neutrei Karta” are a side show that no one here takes seriously. Their late leader whom you refer to might have been well intentioned, but he did not rate as any kind of da’as Torah. He did whatever he wanted.
And please don’t accuse the multitude of chareidishe yidden of supporting NK. Most of the people I know disdain NK, and mostly follow their antics for some comic relief. Except for the hundred or so families that comprise the “so-called NK” (some say it’s a hundred people, not families), and a few hangers-on, the vast majority of chareidim here do not support them in any way.
Yserbius123: Fully agree with your explanation of the Emmanuel Bais Yaakov episode, but not the matter of chareidi support for pro-Palestinian rule. No reputable frum organization (emphasis on reputable), no rabbinical figure of any kind here endorses murderers of Yidden ruling in E.Y. The words ?????? ??????? in that 50+ year old ditty refer to non-acceptance or non-recognition of the zionist regime, but doesn’t express any sympathy for murderous arab terror organizations. As to following “Islamic time” — this clock was used by the Yishuv Hayoshon from Turkish times, and wanting to retain it expresses the rejection of the zionist takeover. (You just pick up stuff when you’ve lived here for a few years….)
Joseph: I guess the conversation has reached an impasse. You are not addressing my points or questions, and just keep on repeating your ideas, albeit with somewhat different wording at each posting. I mean, the very same Rav Elyashev, Rav Chaim, Rav Aharon Leib, Rav Shmuel, etc. whom you cited as supporting the parents’ efforts to keep the Israeli Education Ministry out of the decision-making in the Emmanuel Bais Yaakov — are the SAME who endorse and follow the psak of the gedolim of the previous generation who permitted taking Education Ministry funds. The two opinions are not mutually exclusive. Relieving the Israeli govt. of its funds is allowed; but their meddling in a school’s internal affairs is not, as Yserbius pointed out. As an aside, although the rabbonim surely supported the position of the parents at the Emmanuel Bais Yaakov, they did *not* personally came out to the public rallies. Rav Elyashiv zt”l was extremely ill and frail at that time (about 5 yrs. ago).
I respectfully reiterate my question to Joseph — the question upon which rests the entire disagreement. I, at least, am not insisting that Briskers and Satmarers abandon the ruling of their leaders.
So, please explain why you think that the huge tzibbur of chareidim, bnei yeshiva, Talmidei Chachomim who are following the decision of the Chazon Ish, the Steipeler, Rav Shach, et al, should abandon the psak of the gedolim whom they they have been following for decades.
Of course, you don’t have to reply, but I, for one, would be interested to hear your answer to this question. But, please, i beg you, furnish new insights and not just restating what you’ve already written. Thanks.
Akuperma wrote: “If Israeli hareidim want to free of zionist control, they need to reject zionist funding.”
Can you show an instance where this has actually happened? Not the govt. sputtering and threatening to intervene, but actually closing a mosad or forcing a change in curriculum? If you can, I suggest arranging a meeting with Rav A.L. Shteinman and Rav C. Kanievsky, and try to persuade THEM to accept your point of view. Arguing with me or anyone else on this forum is not going to change the way the chareidi tzibbur thinks and conducts itself.
Joseph: I was being sarcastic about the Chazon Ish “not thinking about it.” Of course, he thought about it. And he still paskened the way he did. Emmanuel was an ENTIRELY different story. The sad story of chareidi discrimination against “others” (it is also perpetrated against “Americans” [unless you have gobs of money to ‘donate’ to the mosad you want to get your child into) and against ba’alei teshuva. It is a sociological problem that some folks have tried to transform into a religious issue. The govt. tried to intervene saying no discrimination in schools that accept govt. funding. So, after trying to “jail” a few parents for a day or two, they were released. The parents who insisted on continuing to discriminate opened their own school.
Aside from some occasional govt. sputtering and threatening to intervene, I cannot think of any instance of it happening.
Indeed, “our tax shekels at work” — in accordance with the opinion of the Gedolei Torah. You think it should be otherwise. I’ll give you the same advice I wrote to Akuperma. Arrange a meeting with the gedolim here, and try to argue your case. You need to persuade the gedolim, not me. Of course, when Reb Chaim Kanievsky will ask you why you are living in the U.S. and not here, you will need to come up with a good explanation.
Takahmamash: question: do you mean ALL da’as Torah or just the opinion of those whose opinion you somehow don’t agree with? Is the da’as Torah expreessed by Rav Yoel mi’Satmar infallible?
One more time: we don’t expect the Satmars to abandon their Rebbe and to follow our rabbonim; Satmar ought not expect us to abandon our rabbonim and gedolim and follow theirs.
Joseph: Interesting that the Chazon Ish and all the other gedolim didn’t think of that…. The zionist govt. huffs and puffs from time to time about telling the yeshivos what to do, because they have a psychological need to be able to pretend they are are truly in the driver’s seat calling the shots. In actual fact, over the 38 or so years that I’v been living here, I can’t think of even one demand that they have made to which the gedolei Torah had to capitulate. Potentially, the regime could c”v shut down any mosad they wish for any sort of spurious reason, whether or not they accept ‘zionist money.’ Hashem watches over ????? ????? and has ensured that in actual fact, this has not occurred. Don’t forget that today we are a population of at least 800,000 people (???”? ?? ????) and the regime would have a very difficult time putting all these people c”v in jail. Can you begin to imagine the furious outrage that would erupt if the police would even just knock on Rav Chaim Kaniensky’s door to “arrest” him, c”v. Every highway, intersection, shopping center would be ablaze with enraged chareidim protesting. Mass arrests of ‘divinity students’ would not play well on the evening news in the U.S., causing the regime a huge black eye.
Honestly, it’s not the 1950s anymore when we were at best a few thousand; we are B”H a huge tzibbur here today that the govt. needs to reckon with. Obeying the da’as Torah of the Gedolei Torah of the past generations and the present is our guarantee.
Joseph: Right, and now the chareidim are paying the zionists for those services instead of the British. So, just like you pay for trash removal, street lighting, etc, you also pay taxes and you get govt. services, including school funding. That is exactly what the Chazon Ish said. That if the chareidim are paying taxes to the medinah, it’s considered that we’re receiving what we’re paying for. Sort of like “your tax shekels at work…”
Incidentally, the fire dept. and ambulance service (MDA) are not like the phone company or electric company where you pay for what you get. Fire and ambulance services are paid for by the state. Not aware of any “real” chareidim who don’t use those services.
I enjoy reading the folks living on the other side of the pond pontificating about what they think goes on in E.Y. When you’ve lived here for nearly 4 decades, you are just more aware of what is really happening. There is so much stuff going on that people don’t hear about, that never gets back to Williamsburg, Monroe, Lakewood, or anywhere else. Brisk and Satmar do not haul their own trash, provide their own street lighting, have their own private telephone company, and do not have their private fire department or ambulance service (when Hatzola answers a call and decides an ambulances is needed, they themselves call the regular MDA ambulance service; this is known from personal experience.) And for those who are not aware, Brisk participates in municipal elections. Because that’s what the Brisker Rav, Rav Velvel Soloveitchik zt”l instructed them to do.
Akuperma seems to think that all non-Satmar chareidim are required to disobey / disavow the decisions of the Chazon Ish, the Steipeler, Rav Isser Zalman Meltzer, Rav Zalman Sorotzkin, Rav Leizer Sach, Rav Elyashiv, zt”l just to name a few that come to mind, and follow what he thinks Rav Yoel mi’Satmar zt”l held. This, despite the opinion of nearly all the non-Satmar rabbonim of today — led by Rav A.L. Shteinman, Rav C. Kanievsky shlit”a — who also rule that it is permissible to take Zionist money.
In any case, nowadays, some institutions that outwardly deny accepting such funding are quietly taking money under different budget items from different government ministries, not the Education Ministry. According to akuperma, only those following the Satmar agenda are “real chareidim” but those who follow their rabbeim or any other gadol, like the Chazon Ish, Rav Shach, the Steipeler, etc. — are not real chareidim. Us non-Satmarers do not expect the Satmarers to disobey their rebbe. So, why should the Satmerers (incl. akuperma) expect us to disobey ours?
This is entirely separate from the question whether the state should accept U.S. money or not. This is a much less relevant question, as you can all be quite sure the Israeli govt. is not paying much attention to what some talkbackers are writing in the YWN CR.
Edited. Any further attempts to reveal another poster’s identity will result in your being blocked.
Neither candidate represents the acme of moral rectitude, as someone so aptly put it, the choice is between Achashverosh or Vashti …. Nevertheless, and particularly in view of Rabbi Miller zt”l’s opinion, the choice should be for the candidate who espouses less immorality. On this matter, the candidate’s own words speak for themselves.
Most soldiers are not combat and hence, unless there’s an all out war c”v, they not exposed to danger on an ongoing basis. B”H! And even regarding the combat soldiers, do we ask the tank crewman, “Why aren’t you in the paratroops or a pilot in the air force?” It’s an absurd question, because someone in one branch of the service clearly doesn’t have to also serve in another.Each person contributes to the national effort by doing his job. Even the cooks! The talmidei hayeshivos are also serving, even though they are not wearing uniforms. Just like Shabak and Mossad people contribute without wearing uniforms. So, the cooks, secretaries, and all the rest (some call them “jobniks”) are also not likely to c”v be killed, captured or wounded. Yet, no one claims they are not fulfilling their responsibilities. And so it is with the bnei hayeshivos.
Joseph: I am sure that I am even more anti-medina than you, especially because I’ve been living here for nearly 4 decades. I’ve experienced stuff here that you haven’t heard about and can’t even imagine. I’m convinced of the evil of the zionists even more than you. Nevertheless, it’s pointless to argue today about what SHOULD have been 75 years ago. I’ve posted this idea several times in the past. Let’s agree that the majority of the Gedolei Yisroel opposed setting up a secular state led by reshoim. But that’s history. Hashem allowed it to happen, and I won’t pretend to speculate why Hashem is testing us with such a powerful nisayon. But now, we have to acknowledge that there’s no turning the clock back. There is presently nothing and no one to whom “we could go back.” To whom would you like to “go back?” The British Mandate? The Ottoman Empire? The Byzantine Empire? The Abbasids? The Omayyads? Seriously, bloodthirsty enemies are sharpening their knives at this very moment just a few miles from the borders of the state. I presume you’ve heard of ISIS, and some of their escapades. And Hamas, and all sorts of other murderous organizations. Isn’t it obvious what those butchers would try to do if there was a political and military void in E.Y? And please don’t try to tell me that you’re imagining that the frum yidden would somehow be able to negotiate some kind of “understanding” with these killers. In the 1920s, Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld zt”l did have such an idea and wanted to send Reb Yaakov Yisroel De Haan Hy”d to negotiate some kind of understanding with King Abdallah of Jordan. De Haan was subsequently assassinated by the zionists, and nothing ever came of that plan. Today, no gadol says to dismantle the medina. If you claim to be following the shita of Rav Yoelish Mi’Satmar zt”l, well, he has not been with us for about 40 years now, and no one can speak in his name or claim to know precisely what he would hold in today’s situation. We have the unanimous agreement of the gedolei E.Y. who have never suggested dismantling the medina and trying to “go back” in time or to negotiate with the Arab murderers. Perhaps you might want to tell me that yes, they are murderers, but if the “zionist entity” would cease to exist, at least some of them would change their tune and become friendly — at least toward the frum yidden. This is rampant speculation at best, and dangerous fantasizing at worst. And, as mentioned, none of the gedolei E.Y. hold of such an idea.
What can we — should we do? As stated on previous occasions, we have to spread Torah and mitzvos as much as possible. Build more mosdos, more yeshivos, girls’ schools, shuls, mikvaos, be mekarev yidden as much as possible, striving to spread the light of yiddishkeit as much as we can. While at the same time davening for the geula ha’sheleima with the coming of moshiach tzidkeinu be’meheira.
There is nothing wrong with wearing a kipa seruga. The only question that could arise is WHY does a person want to wear a kipa seruga? Here too, if the answer is “that’s what my dad wears,” there’s not much to say to than, except maybe that HIS dad most likely did not wear one. Possible food for thought. In general, in E.Y, the kipa one wears is a statement that announces “I identify with the group that wears a kipa seruga,” or that “I don’t identify with the group that wears it.” Perhaps in the U.S., it’s less part of a “uniform” than in E.Y.
“The Modern Orthodox and Dati Leumi worlds never adopted the Kollel for Everyone system and are doing fine. They also aren’t requiring massive government subsidies for their survival.”
Dr. Hall forgot about the 350 billion shekels annually that supports the settlements. It’s actually even more than that, but some parts of the settlement budget are ‘concealed’ in other budget items. This is besides the budget for hesder yeshivas. The entire chareidi education system receives about 200 billion shekels, and that’s for elementary schools too. The married kollel students are budgeted at about 800 shekels (approx. $200) per student per month. Unmarried yeshiva bochurim are budgeted at about half of that.
All the arguments and explanations that you will use to justify the settlement budget, how necessary it is for the nation’s security, etc. can be applied to the chareidi kollel system as well.
As an aside, some Dati Leumi Roshei Yeshiva or Roshei Kollel in a moment of candor are sometimes willing to admit which system is producing greater Talmidei Chachamim.
What are you asking? For laymen to comment on the opinions of the gedolei Torah? Isn’t it time, once and for all, to get over this? A child in kindergarten doesn’t comment on the opinion of a professor in a university. And if he does, it isn’t worth very much.
Avi K, what is this obsession with curtailing or shutting down the chareidi yeshiva system? A thousand study and a hundred and fifty become Talmidei Chachamim. The others? They get training in order to be able to appreciate the 150 Talmidei Chachamim. BTW, a Talmid Chacham
who is not a gadol is also a Talmid Chacham. Not everyone becomes a gadol hador! The ones who really can’t manage even that end up leaving, doing Nachal Chareidi, or some other solution. Is every Technion student a future Einstein? Does the Technion know in advance who will make a Nobel Prize-winning discovery in 20 years? No, of course not. Those who want to study physics at the Technion’s level are allowed to do so. Do you think that Hashem only helps potential physics geniuses, but not yeshiva students? To those who really want it, Hashem grants siyata de’shmaya. Those who don’t or can’t — generally end up leaving the yeshiva.
What are you trying to accomplish anyway? A few thousand more jobniks in the IDF? The army doesn’t have enough jobs as it is and many conscripts are underutilized and seriously wasting time and taxpayer money by being in the army. But, as long at they’ll put on the green uniform even for just a few months till the army realizes that these guys anyway have nothing to do — so Avi K will be satisfied. OK, probably some quality combat soldiers could come from the ranks of the chareidi yeshiva world. But, it will be impossible to turn the majority of them into killers. So, they’ll end up being conscripted to do busy work — at the taxpayers expense.
Avi K, you and I both know the truth: NO ONE can be “forced” to be a soldier against their will. A conscript might have to endure punishment, possibly physical, time in a military stockade. But, ultimately, the army cannot and will not retain such guys that simply will not cooperate. Undermining morale and discipline in the unit is counterproductive. The army knows this and has never called for “forced conscription” because the army knows that it’s a waste of time — and taxpayers’ money.
As you surely know, the only way to change the chareidi mind-set is to persuade the gedolim to change their minds. So, as I’ve posted so many times in the past, arrange a meeting with some of the gedolim and try to convince them your approach is the correct one. Admittedly, it’s a long shot, but you could try. That is the only way to change the chareidi tzibbur’s collective mind. Continually citing the opinions of rabbis that the chareidim don’t follow or respect is not going to achieve anything. Just like I don’t expect (although I will you would) you to accept the da’as Torah of the gedolim that I respect, you’ve got to realize that I am not going to accept the rulings of the other rabbis, those whose opinions you consider binding and authoritative. One thing is for sure: this continuous haranguing in the CR is totally fruitless. Persuade the gedolim that your opinions are right, and you will achieve your goal. Otherwise, “chaval al hazman,” you will just be talking till you’re blue in the face. (Not great for one’s health!)
Ir’s well known that the Steipeler zt”l told people that if there is some medical reason or if the boy’s hair is infested with lice, his hair can be cut before age 3.
Torah4Me: even if she can afford it, it is a supreme shtus. That doesn’t make upsheiren a shtus. Any more than overspending on a wedding would make that celebration a shtus.
Avi K: “if the tzibbor is going to pay them it should be able able to make sure that it is not being cheated through audits and exams.”
But, there’s no need to audit all the secular youth (as much as 47% according to stats released by the IDF) who are MUCH more numerous than the few thousand 18-30 year old yeshiva bochurim. Yeah, the ones faking psychological problems, who pay certain therapists under the table to falsely certify them as suffering from some mental illness. Or those that simply do everything possible to avoid serving or to get themselves thrown out of the army. Much of this is with the agreement and collusion of their parents.
And then how much does the tzibbur pay the fake students, the athletes, the “artists,” the entertainers, should I go on — many of whom shirk army service. Who are you trying to fool? The uninitiated who live in the U.S. might not know these things, but those of us who live here all know the real score. So chill out and put the rest of the house in order before going after the yeshiva bochurim.
It’s very likely that the custom of upsheirin was relatively unknown in Europe before the war. Indeed, they probably didn’t do any celebrating on Lag Ba’Omer, aside from omitting tachanun. Nevertheless, we see that the Chasam Sofer’s objections to this celebration have not been accepted and nowadays nearly all Chassidim today do celebrate it in one form or another. As recently as 2 weeks ago, Rav Chaim Kanievsky told questioners not to denigrate the custom of celebrating at Meron on Lag Ba’Omer. It was for him (like so many other questions), primarily a question of bitul Torah. The Arizal’s custom on this matter might not have been so widespread in Europe, even while his nusach in davening was. So, it’s understandable if some rabbonim might be hesitant to accept it. But calling it a “minhag shtus” is going way too far, just as no one would CV”S dare call Nusach Ari a shtus.
Exhaustive coverage of Yom Yerushalayim, Chareidi yeshiva bochurim ostensibly visiting settlements on Shabbos, the Nachal Chareidi march to the kosel (maybe “the kotel” already,huh?), the Manhattan parade saluting the state of Israel — now THOSE are news items that are part of the yeshiva world. Tefilas HaShela you want? Is that something that interests the yeshiva world?
For as long as I can remember, there have been persistent whisperings that in the earlier years of the medinah, weddings of many secular kibbutzniks were deliberately conducted using ???? ?????? so that the chuppa would be invalid. The justification was that marital morals were, how to put it delicately, not strongly observed (after marriage!). So, to avoid ????? ??? ??? the Rabbanut conducted itself in the aforementioned manner. Whether this is true or not — and whether this is da’as Torah of the gedolei Torah — I cannot say.
Regarding the matter of mesora and changing it. Some people seem to think that OK, halachic questions need a posek who is a Talmid Chacham to rule on them. But, if something seems to be a “mere” custom, well then every Tom, Dick, and Harry, any ba’al habayis, especially if he learned a bit in yeshiva once upon a time — is a qualified opinion on matters of minhag and mesora. Only Talmidei Chachamim whose entire existence is toiling in Torah, are qualified to establish new minhagim, or to change existing ones. These practices are a part of our jurisprudence no less than “explicit” (?????) halachos. WE do NOT meddle with mesora! Nor do we “make changes all the time.” Sometimes, there are differing opinions — among the poskei halacha — on certain customs. The yekkishe minhag regarding waiting between fleishigs and milchigs comes to mind. There are others as well. And please don’t counter this with cases that the gemara says ??? ??? ??? ??? ???, because those were cases where there was no definite minhag in that particular place. So, under such circumstances, there could be a decision to “go see how people conduct themselves.” And that too was a halachic ruling for that specific situation. It never meant, “if it’s ‘just’ a minhag, we can always do whatever we like.” Chas ve’shalom. It’s worth remembering that the earliest deviations of what turned into the Reform Movement began by meddling with “mere” minhagim (observing Yomtov sheini shel galuyos, reciting yekum purkan on Shabbos).
Rambam sof Shmitta ve’Yovel.
Sam2: Where do we find such a concept as a “national Kaddish?” And one cannot be certain that the relatives will say it on the yahrzeit — because after all, the atheist “sages” of the state of Israel have “paskened” that Kaddish is to be recited on 4 Iyar.
As to why I assume that the Zechus is any different on a Yahrtzeit than any other day. I assume the Chachmei HaTorah who established these minhagim had good reasons for doing so. If they determined that Kaddish Yasom should be said on the yahrzeit of the niftar, then that’s the time that Kaddish will have an iluy le’nishmasam, not any old Monteg or Donnershteg. I did point out that I have no proof that it harms or distresses the neshama of the niftar, but it surely cannot have the especial segula that it has on the yahrzeit.