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Lostspark, learning to earning a living is more problematic than possible A’Z?
Found the nekuda that explains what bothers me when reading Yidden arguing without integrity about politics or whose rebbe is bigger:
Berdichever (as quoted by R Twersky) says – if you are lying in non-religious matters, you are losing out on many mitzvos. For example, when you say “Shma Yisroel” it is your testimony of your emunah. But if you are known to lie, you are not believed in this testimony and you are losing out on kriyas shma [ AAQ: even if you say it b’zmono]
qwerty > So according to you when there’s a pressing need one is allowed to change the Torah.
this is not what I said. Maybe you need to explain what Gemorah contradictions you mean. And I would presume R Feinstein and people of his stature would have pointed it out. What I do mean is that often new circumstances require different actions. Gemora itself brings enough examples – such as writing down Torah ShebAlpe, changing how to organize schools based on whether the approach worked out, etc. I imagine every time someone suggested to change how school worked, someone else said – this is against what chachamim said. L Rebbe definitely cared about Am Yisroel and tried to do something about it. Was he always right and were there negative side effects? This is a separate question that may take some time to answer.
Dr Pepper > not to be too comfortable and we need to continue to daven.
Definitely, many events in a last month would be rejected as unlikely if they put in a fiction novel …
well, bar kamtza obviously was for cooperation with Romans, as this is where he went. But I never heard of tzduki connection. Anyone sees it in Maharsha? Should be in either Gittin or Yoma gemoras, I presume
qwerty > Yes the Rebbe was a gaon in Torah, but he rejected open Gemaras that didn’t jibe with his agenda.
L Rebbe tried to address important issues of his generation, some of these new issues that did not exist before and with innovations that did not exist before. It is always easy to criticize those who try to do something. Those who disregarded Jews who were assimilating; Israelis; Russians behind Iron Curtain did not do controversial things, so nothing to criticize for.
qwerty > Yes the Rebbe was a gaon in Torah, but he rejected open Gemaras that didn’t jibe with his agenda.
L Rebbe tried to address important issues of his generation, some of these new issues that did not exist before and with innovations that did not exist before. It is always easy to criticize those who try to do something. Those who disregarded Jews who were assimilating; Israelis; Russians behind Iron Curtain did not do controversial things, so nothing to criticize for.
First, you need to hear the tape. Rav is not responsible for the pamphlet writers. I stopped reading them for this reason.
fandango, Rav Twersky writes that educated and smart alcoholics (or any addicts) are the worse to treat – they can always twist the facts to explain themselves away: I can quit any time, so I am not an addict, so I do not have to quit. Thanks for providing an illustration.
DR Pepper > Unfortunately after Biden was forced out my 401(k) took a huge hit- not that I’m concerned about the amount that I lossed- I’m concerned that the investors aren’t so confident that President Trump will win and fix the economy.
I think the market (over)-reacted to Kamala rising in polls. A buying opportunity.
skripka > Trump keeps taking the Dems bait and gets triggered the way he has
It may not be that simple. T made a number of “questionable” and risky statements – and a number of them worked out well. Starting from his in-his-face attack on Jeb Bush during a debate that demolished Jeb! and made T the lead candidate; his seemingly offhand “what do you have to lose” to Black voters that is now acknowledged that he is picking up some Black and Latino votes. Note that Kamala tried a similar approach with her wild accusation against Biden for throwing her under the bus – and despite the plunge in popularity and hate from Jill – that made her VP and the candidate. Who laughs last … with an apology to her laugh
sechel > you can check the original yourself
Hm, you might point me to which of 900+ pages you are referring to. I looked somehwat closely at a number of footnotes and they all looked reasonable and corresponded to what I knew from other sources.
sechel > it is very important to know that the Agudas Harabbonim, of which Rav Moshe was President in his later years, had a Lubavitcher secretary, by the name of Avrohom Shmuel Lewin,
Maybe I was not clear – this Rav called _Lubavitcher Rebbe_ secretariate when _Lubavitcher Rebbe_ was incapacitated, and they responded that they do not support people running around calling Rebbe maschiach and ask that Rav to publicize this message, and that is what he did.
Gadol > No more having to establish a relationship with a local rav
Well, the AIrev rav will still need to personalize the psak, as we discussed here many times – halakha is personal. The only difference is – the rav is basing his psak based on what you tell him about you, while AI will use your actual browsing history. So, expect the psak being more precise.
I hear you, I also would not join kids for a job interview, but have no problem calling someone to arrange it! Also, nobody ever came with a parent to the interview, even the one whose parent was my colleague. Maybe engineers are more mature than lawyers.
Still, we supervise more aspects of our kids than our parents ever did – and our parents do not object. I once asked my mother why she did not suggest me to do what I am now suggesting to a kid (and she agreed with the idea) – and she said “we simply did not think about it”.
skripka, while I am making a light-heared argument here, I can tell you that – in my humble experience – if the lady in question smells wine, she is drunk. And, if she is sitting on a barrel of free wine and controlled herself so much that she did not drink any – she is a tzadekes. And this ability to withstand the yetzer very much correlates with the condition of her reproductive system.
Come to think of it, maybe that _is_ the allegory the gemorah is making – barrel of wine as yetzer.
I have a problem with Trump critics. If someone were to present a reasonable view of T and argue against him, I’m happy to listen. But both media (predictably) and some posters here (unfortunately) present a one-sided grotesque picture ignoring or denying pretty basic things T achieved. This is obviously not going to convince anyone here and the only reason it is being posted is probably a free substitute for therapy, that is evidently not working.
xCTL, you seem to be preemptively defending Mr Walz for his pro-China positions. Private wealth in China is mostly under close observation and ultimate control by the government. So, Mao was simply hacking away those who disagree with him, and Xi figured out how to allow benefits of capitalism while keeping control with more modern means does not make that regime more attractive. You can see this with Russia that has a slightly less advanced system – it switched to a more totalitarian the moment they felt they need to.
YS > Chareidi Rabbonim should be pushing the Israeli government to abolish the draft so that more Chareidim can go to work.
A better idea – push Tzahal to have wars bein hazmanim.
skripka > My strong position on this is knowing basic anatomy
There are two similar stories, one about Vilna Gaon, and another about a Muslim medieval philosopher – both asked the doctor how many layers are in the eye. The doctor answered according to “basic anatomy” (aka Galen) and Gaon/philosopher refuse to be seen by the doctor because there are way more layers (confirmed by now). Difference between book knowledge and actual experiment.
skripka > “No True Scotsman”argument is definitely the way most people would argue
Gemora learning should cure that by giving you plenty of examples of taking different views and information sources into account and building a valid sevorah. When I talk to people who are ostensibly very learned but are not good at thinking, I have to presume they did not learn Gemora right …
Over time, you can see whether you are able to see what is good, or at least remarkable, by looking back. For example, I noticed Apprentice and used it as a recommendation about business education before Trump got into politics. Thus, I can be sure that if I see sense in his position, it is not entirely based on political propaganda. Similarly, I noticed the early book by Nosson Slifkin that he wrote while he was in yeshiva (Lying for truth), recommended it to multiple people and gave him sone feedback. So, when he started writing controversial stuff, I know that there is some strength to his argument (even if he disavowed his early book when I asked him later). You can do similarly by looking back at what contemporary talmidei chachamim wrote about before and then make conclusions.
Gadol > We have seen on multiple occasions, parents showing up with their kinderlach for job interviews at our firm.
Selection bias maybe? Those free range kids just don’t get to the job interview?
Rashi suggests time to teach your kids from between 16 and 24, about the age of your applicant.
You may be idealizing industrial age lifestyle. Historically, kids were raised at home and worked at fields and workshops. A select few got educated, mostly by tutors. Society figured out that it is possible to educate the masses by making them sit in same-age groups of forty and repeat ABC after one teacher.
RebE > brilliant iq. why can’t he differentiate between right and wrong? A smart person must see the consequences of one’s actions.
Bilaam, Trotsky, Clinton all had passable IQs, but failed (each in a different way). Cut some of them some slack – they did not learn Tanya that intellect should control emotions.
Dovid > same applies to human beings.
ChatGPT is different from more professional AI apps as it learns from a large corpus of human text and speaks like your average person, just with less safeguards. Some theoreticians posit that the next generation of GPTs will perform worse than the current (contrary to the usual tech improvement trends) – as current human generations learns from GPT and next generation of GPT will learn from current writers …
A traditional AI poses a question and then measures how well it can answer it. It can be wrong but in a controlled way. There is now work to combine GPTs with responsible algorithms, will see how that goes.
RebE, having acceptance standards is somewhat different from expelling. Same difference as between rejecting a shidduch and giving a get.
But even them – a number of chabad schools accept such kids at least in younger ages, especially Israelis who send kids to Jewish kindergartens until public schools. And now, with government giveaways of pre-schools that seem to also fund religious ones, I’ve heard of mixed kindergartens of yeshivish and non-observant kids. Possibly because free beats the concerns and nobody issued an issur yet (as with public schools).
Shapiro was not thrown under the bus, he got off the bus before it went off the cliff. I am happy for him and all Yidden that he is not put into the position of campaigning in front of the Michigan Ummah.
I wonder how Dr Jill feels though: Kamala threw Biden under the bus at first opportunity in 2019 – and now knived him in the back on his way out. Possibly Bidens will come out and endorse Trump before the elections.
> but not yet a legal divorce. May she go out on a shidduch date or not?
RebbeGPT answered that yes, but she needs to disclose it by the third date. Unless your minhag is to do a vort after two dates. In this case, it is unclear whether you should be using kallah married name in the invitations. Ask your ruv.
SQRT> Rabbi Moshe Feinstein never saw the many thousands of Chabad people who continued to insist that their Rebbe was the Melech HaMashiach,
even after his death.Indeed, according to a contemporary public testimony of a Rav who spoke with L Rebbe’s office while he was incapacitated, they did not support the meshugas. Kal v’homer after petira, kal vehomer R Moshe v closest rebbe’s confidants.
Evion is a poor person who has no money. Ani is a person who used to have something and is now lacking that. He needs our support if necessary even if he is not poor in financial sense. A person who volunteer to risk his life – kal vechomer. According to R Wachtfogel Z’L, Lakewood Mashgiach, Esther becomes Mordechai’s rebbe at the moment she is risking her life (by deciding to go to the King). I did not use this chance to ask the Rav about giyus.
Closer to home: we have a letter on the front page where the respected talmidei chachamim say that they do not know of any gadol (singular) that disagrees with their position on draft. This breaks the infallibility argument: either those who are verifiably Talmidei Chachamim and are known to hold opposite position are wrong and not gedolim; or Talmidei Chachamim that signed the letter are wrong not just in their conclusion, but simply in the veracity of their statement. I don’t see how this simple example can support that T’Ch are always right, unless you are using “no good scotsman” derech.
skripka > ow for example could they think that having a women sit on a barrel of wine and smelling her breath is a way of being able to tell that she is still a besulah? It just isn’t!
I simply can’t believe your strong position is based on rigorous testing. You are just making unscientific assumptions. Pot. Kettle.
Yes man, I didn’t come to any conclusions yet, I just found some numbers that looked relevant and reliable and shared with you.
RebE, indeed, my hevruta and I were once kicked out of the class specifically fir that. As the rebbe said in front of the class, our misbehaving didn’t affect our learning but affected others who were copying us.. this tochacha actually worked
.. still, this contradicts numerous stories of gedolim personally protecting such kids. Maybe there are other gedolim who hold differently, then please bring the sources.I once talked with a school administrator about challenging kids. He shared with me how he visited r Kanevsky with a shailoh about his child. I asked him then who is the school asking such shailohs about expelling kids and he didn’t have a ready answer. Do you know who is your school asking shailos of?
Dr Pepper > I was walking by a meter maid who slapped a ticket on a car in a way
I was walking in front of a meter maid and threw a couple of quarters into the cars in front of me. Got me ayn harah.
Guys, stop focusing on a yeshiva.
They had their chance to educate the kid and to show chesed if the child is a difficult one. There are numerous stories that gedolim did not tolerate expulsions, such as R Schach telling the yeshiva managers that it is ok to expel the the kid and then was seen personally tutoring the kid, leading to them taking the kid back. I am not saying that there are no kids that should be elsewhere, but most cases are not.
So, it is either the yeshiva managers (1) are not aware of the position of the gedolim, or (2) are not willing to follow their example, or (3) it is a case of a kid who really does not belong there. My humble opinion is in all of 3 cases, there is no reason to try to get back there. If you think differently, please specify which of the 3 hypotheses above you presume.
So, instead – focus on what the kid needs to develop into an erliche Yid and start providing that. If you think that in a long-term he needs to be in a yeshiva, you can continue searching for the right place, but there is no reason you can’t provide a good environment for the kid yourself with the help from friends, tutors, local rabbis.
sechel? (according to making of a gadal – who makes up many things so i dont know how trustworthy he is -)
This book has enormous number of citations, I never saw anything documented as well as this sefer. Maybe you think so because you skipped over little numbers in the main text. These are called endnotes and refer to specific people and books. They are at the end of the book in fine print and are even more interesting than the main text.
sechel> all the gedolim supported the rebbe and held of his as the gadal hador and many held he was moshiach
At minimum, I think LR, R Moshe and Rav YB Soloveichik had respectful relationships between each other. Maybe, as I once was told by a Rav about another Rav with whom I suggested a cooperation: “at least we learned not to hurt each other’s work”.
Qwerty > I’m surprised that you think it’s a Chiddush that Lubavitchers would lie. …To blatantly lie and think you can fool others as well as Hashem is, perhaps, worse than idolatry.
All I am saying that intellectual honesty is a prerequisite for a debate. Especially when you are talking in an anonymous forum. What is even the point of lying to someone you do not know personally? Self-gratification? then, go to your own group and talk to each other. We have here a rare chance of having a free-flowing discussion between people with different views and experiences. Lies just waste everyone’s time at best and, at worst, makes your own view less respectable.
So, as you have strong opinions, maybe you can go and re-check that podcast, and maybe someone pro-chabad can do that also, and report to us?
PS Interesting in Bava Basra 41, if we have two witnesses, one saying the loan is $100, and another $200, we do not conclude that at least $100 is owed – as one of the witnesses is evidently lying (or off his rocker), we have only one kosher witness. This underlines that if someone mis-reports something, we should not listen to the rest of his speech.
> That’s subjective.
This is not the real problem. The real problem is that true answers will attract creeps, not well-matching candidates. Maybe booking system should simply ask users for their match com or CU@Sinai profiles and manage the bookings.
> win back Arab American voters
There are also articles discussing whether Gov Shapiro is a problem because he is so pro-Israel or because he is stam Jewish … This D party left Joe Liberman way behind.
Maybe Israel should time wars for bein hazmanim so that bachurim could lead the troops with their true Torah attitude and not miss classes.
How about airlines provide additional information during seat selection: gender, ethnicity, age range, girth, attractiveness level – all publicly observable when you are in the plane, marital status (optional) – I am sure they can charge more then.
here are some sources oft-quoted in such discussions:
Pesachim 94b
The Sages of Israel say, During the day, the sun travels below the firmament, and at night, above the firmament. And the scholars of the nations say, During the day the sun travels below the firmament, and at night below the ground. Rebbi said: Their words seem more correct than ours, for during the day the wellsprings are cool and at night they steam (due to being heated by the sun passing beneath them—Rashi).Sanhedrin 5b
Rav said: I spent eighteen months living with a shepherd in order to know which blemishes are permanent and which are transitory.Rav Sherira Gaon (or possibly his son, Rav Hai Gaon) Teshuvot Ha Geonim, no. 394:
Our sages were not doctors and said what they did based on experience with the diseases of their time. Therefore, there is no commandment to listen to the sages [regarding medical advice] because they only spoke from their opinion based on what they saw in their day.Rambam, Moreh Nevuchim 3:14
Do not ask me to reconcile everything that they (the sages) stated about astronomy with the actual reality, for the science of those days was deficient, and they did not speak out of traditions from the prophets regarding these matters.Maharam Schick, Teshuvas Maharam Schick 7
Matters that were not received by Chazal as halachah leMoshe miSinai, but rather which they said according to their own reasoning – and with something that is not received [from Sinai] and has no root in our Torah, but rather comes from investigation and experience, it is difficult to determine [that it is true]. And there are many occasions when the sages determined, according to their own intellects, that a matter was a certain way, and the subsequent generation analyzed the matter further and disputed the earlier view.Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch, Trusting the Torah’s Sages, Chapter 4:
We find that Chazal themselves considered the wisdom of the gentile scholars equal to their own in the natural sciences. To determine who was right in areas where the gentile sages disagreed with their own knowledge, they did not rely on their tradition but on reason. Moreover they even respected the opinion of the gentile scholars, admitting when the opinion of the latter seemed more correct than their own.
Imagine if a scholar such as Humboldt had lived in their times and had traveled to the ends of the world for his biological investigations. If upon his return he would report that in some distant land there is a humanoid creature growing from the ground or that he had found mice that had been generated from the soil and had in fact seen a mouse that was half earth and half flesh and his report was accepted by the world as true, wouldn’t we expect Chazal to discuss the Torah aspects that apply to these instances? What laws of defilement and decontamination apply to these creatures?Chacham Yosef Chaim, Benayahu, Bava Batra 25b
Know that regarding what R. Eliezer and R. Yehoshua say here regarding the motion of the sun, was said according to their intellectual assessment, according to whatever seemed true to them in the science of astronomy. And they did not determine these things and establish them as true; rather, each went according to whatever appeared to him in accordance with his principles of astronomy; they did not say these things as a tradition from their teachersSo, let’s define an Yid who lives safely avoiding major sins according to anyone.
First, he should not be angry at all. That’s by all opinions A’Z. 2nd, he should not disparage any other group of Yidden who are shomer shabbos by some opinion because they are in danger of a cherem if that other group is announced kosher.
Is eating treif a biggie? Is there a shechita that is kosher by all opinions? super-glatt.
Hametz on Pesach is a thing. Luckily, Mishna tells us not to worry about mice from neighbors, otherwise there will be no end.
How many times we would need to read zecher Amalek to satisfy all opinions? And will we violate tircha detzibura by some opinions while doing that?
On the main topic of believing in Gemorah medicine. I am not going to hunt for quotes, but I would think that Rambam himself demonstrates same attitude that his son is referring to. He is clearly using science of his time. Also, Gemora itself describes multiple cases of Amoraim knowing or not knowing various medical facts and relying on factual proofs to make decisions. Just study Shmuel’s approach and try to describe how he would behave in our times. I think he would go to medical school.
Also, just a simple observation that amoraim argue with each other on all kind of points makes it clear that none of them has access to the absolute truth on anything. Their overall approach to the argument is such that they are able to develop a coherent system of making decisions. And even then, they leave multiple questions without a clear answer or to defer to Eliahu. This is indisputable and should be a starting point for any logical argument on the topic.
>> In fact, most of Ashkenazi Jewry can have their DNA traced to about 350 people in Germany in the 1300-1400s. Which is why there is a relatively high number of Recessive diseases among Ashkenazi Jews. Be that as it may, we still do not differ much from the Non-Jews of the Mediterranean area. (arabs, etc.)
the fact that Ashkenazim come from a small group of _men_ (the way I heard it, more variety and European admixture on female side) makes us different from even Sephardim. Mathematically, think about this way – you have a large multi-dimensional population. Take a 100 random samples – distribution of that small sample will be different from the whole population. That is, you can find some out of 1,000s variables that will separate these 100 from the whole. With time, those differences are reinforced. So, it is not by chance that medieval Europe starts depicting Jews with specific features, like long noses. I don’t think Romans or Persians ascribed specific features to Jews.
And also diet and public health make impact. It is in halakha, I forgot the source, that modern Jews are weaker – because weak children are saved by medicine. In older times, people who have a hard time fasting for a day would not be asking shailos about it, as they would have died in childhood on a day there was not enough food.
which Gemora are we talking about, btw? I do not see a reference ^
DaMoshe, I tihnk R Moshe answers your question in the teshuva where he argues that it is not necessary to go to college. He says, paraphrasing, you do not need to try to live like top 5%, you can live like a median American without going to college, as the median American did not at the time. He is clearly not suggesting the charity route or pas b’melach, or at least he is conscious that it will not be accepted by the majority.
Also, please differentiate between pas b’melach, which is a very respectable approach, v. relying on scholarships and government welfare.
> when he saw that the destruction of the mitzyim brought the Jews to emunah.
That was when Yidden saw the Mitzri army fully destroyed. At this point, it is appropriate to continue tehilim for safety of Yidden in EY.
akperma> So stop worry, and say Baruch ha-Shem that Lashon Kodesh is a living language, richly able to absorb new words, and never suffered the fate of Etruscan or Minoan Linear A (languages which never get butchered).
excellent point. BTW, I think theory says that language changes more in the center while preserved more in far-flung provinces. That is why, American English is closer to old English than British (excluding NorthEast that continued communicating with Britain and getting new sounds from the metropolis). This might explain relative fidelity of Teimeni Hebrew.
But, generally, Hashem put us in this world to develop it and humanity, with some side turns, is successful at that, and the language is supposed to give us tools to reflect current reality. Gemorah is full of words related to agriculture. Surely, Amoraim of our times would add words related to math, chemistry, computers, and AI.