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Yachar koach in assisting the country in fulfilling a Noahide mitzva of providing justice.
In my personal experience, I was surprised to be the most liberal member of the jury while judging a possible drunk driver on an empty street at night who possibly did not speak English… While for me, drunk driving is just a bad thing to do, many others had personal experiences with misbehavior and loss in their communities and wanted to be as strict as Beit Shammai ever was. One self-identified as a pedestrian and simply hated all drivers who did not stop in front of her.
My last argument in favor of rahmonus was – that the person might be in some immigration status where he would be deported based on this very minor crime, and who knows whether he is also supporting a family. Nobody cared.
>> Unfettered internet and social media access? There’s a reason that such asifos are only in the Yeshiva world, while YU’s “yom iyun” featuring female and male speakers are always about politics or pareve topics like davening better etc
I think this discussion is somewhat meaningless, just want to mention that yo can turn this other way around: one groups learns about davening, while another about internet filters.
As to the substance, I am sure there are lots of people who need filters, but also there are more such people in charedi communities, given their lack of knowledge and experience with electronics.
You can see it here with many people bringing good knowledge of tosfos but not able to verify specious claims about current events with a google search.This is not such a big deal. Same as villages used to have asifos about cars on big highways before going to the markets, while city people drive those highways every day without asifos.
say, Hashem designates two people to be parnasim of the community.
One of them earns $20 mln and gives $1 mln – skimping on tzedoka. Another person, with similar abilities, does not aspire for much in the physical world, maybe even spends reasonable time in learning, and pays full $10 out of his $100 dollars. I can just see poor people lining up to thanks that second person for his generosity!
It would be reasonable to say that first person has a hesaron of $1 mln, or 50%, while the second has hesaron of $1,999,900 or 99.99%
I would think that in the case they are allowed, they are also required. You can also keep them locked in shul with your talles.
So, in olden times, the bochur, whatever his age was, would be given a year to prepare – get a house, have a job or business. It was often continue himself in the profession his father was, possibly getting funds from relatives to start on his own, if it was a capital-intensive business. The ketubah would be guaranteed, originally, from the set aside funds and later form all his properties. So, in the earlier system, the guy should at least have 200 zuz saved.
Maybe the same should be the criterion: he should at least be applying himself towards a way to support the family. Say, be in a medical school, or taking computer programming courses. If he has nothing except vague plans, what is a collateral for the ketubah?
lakewhut, indeed. When my daughters here about “learning Gemora” – they are against it. When I simply teach them what I learn from Gemora, they are pretty sharp and often mention ideas that both magid shiur and I missed, especially when the issue relates to interpersonal relationships. Remember (and many people write about it), that every gadol was early on taught by his mother, while the father was away learning or working.
Avira, you need to step this annoying habit of disparaging people who are not in your derech. You are preventing me from using proper references to the ideas, as I don’t want to have their names dirtied (Chofetz Chaim suggests not to praise people because of that, but just quote …).
Often, if I presume an argument without a name, it goes well through. In this case, Rav simply wrote a book in an easy style, summarizing Gemora in hundred small pages, not an easy feat.As to Rav’s sources, I know from personal experiences that his knowledge was vast, both in Jewish and non-Jewish sources. Besides asking him my own stupid questions on obscure topics, both in torah and otherwise, and getting sourced answers, I saw a professional historian confronting him about a detail in understanding of a modern philosopher after Rav mentioned him in passing, and Rav responded by a quote from his personal discussion with that philosopher and a reference to his own book where he discusses this particular issue. So, in this case, I can personally vouch for total emptiness of our criticism. This makes me discount your opinions where you might have more first or second-hand knowledge. So, I would suggest if you want to have your opinions respected, cut down on such knee-jerk reactions.
Tapuach may be some other fruit
Avram, I agree on either-or, we obviously deal with the legal side, I was just stressing the other part that describes social norms, etza tova, important focus in life, etc.
I am in no way advocating doing this now, and as the tosfos helpfully referred to by am.yeshivish says – we change the norms according to social conditions. Similarly, during gemora times there were different recommended ages for boys in EY and Bavel depending on ability to travel to learn after the marriage
n0, a year does not sound like a minimum, but rather as usual and maybe even maximum, with older girls (12.5+) typically taking less time. And after the date is set and the chatan does not show up, he starts paying for her upkeep.
I am not equating abilities. I am saying that people who have intellectual capabilities should not use them just for non-Torah subjects, leading to undervaluing of Torah by them – and, if R Eliezer and you do not care about their own views – transmitting it to their sons.
Middos are transmittable, not just intellect, even strength – as R Yohanan sand to Resh Lakish.
As to tiflus, it seems to be something we can reasonably analyze: schools & seminaries that end up producing tiflus outlived their purpose (circling to the topic), the ones that do not – do not, and I would be presumptuous enough to think that Rambam will agree with the observations.
R Steinsaltz in his short book Essential Talmud (that, unfortunately, has almost as many references as Rambam’s Mishne Torah) brings several observations that girls were learned in families of Talmidei Chachamim, bringing examples, but also a notion that it is a good idea to marry a daughter of T’Ch because if something happens w/ the husband, she will be able to educate the children in Torah. Anyone knows what is his source?
the way I learned – do not get yourself accustomed to luxury, so you can survive if the fortunes change. Same applies to the kids you raise. There are multiple agadta about poor people who demand stuffed chickens and die not getting it.
a good case, thanks!
SQRT,
this is a meaningless argument – when Moschiach comes, b’mwhira, those who focus on bein adam l’havero will claim it was their effort, those who were looking for birds in the forest – will claim it was theirs! I doubt Melech Hamoschiach will resolve this – l’derech shalom, or maybe even like current politicians, he will tell everyone what they want to hear – after all, al pi Rambam, there will be no difference from before, except Jews will not be subjugated. And we are getting a taste how Jews behave in such case from the Knesset elections.Avira, it is R Eliezer who mentions tiflus, not everyone agrees…
more importantly – how do we define capability? Definition of “gemora” is learning underlying reasons v. Mishna just halochos, not necessarily mastering tosfos. I am sure there are lots of ladies who are capable of learning and reasoning at that level at some topics. In my household, ladies are happy to discuss at that level agadot and issues that relate to interpersonal and practical application, with less interest in mahlokets Abaye and Rava.
Note that at Rambam times, women might have better emuna, etc, but they were way less educated both in Jewish and secular matters. So, if they are doing graduate work in secular subjects (legit, not gender studies), they need to understand Jewish subjects at the same level, otherwise, they’ll see it as tiflus.
This discussion about age raises an interesting question: do we read Gemora as a strictly legal cases or as a guide of living. Strictly legal reading defines edge cases indeed. For example, just had in the daf, a Rav goes to another city to ask a shaila about a posuk, the Teacher is not there, so he goes to another city.
You can learn from this what the pasuk says and some halochos of gezera shava – but you can also learn about an admirable attitude of dropping everything and travelling to get an answer to your question. When someone questioned R Salanter where his chidushim were from, he said “from Gemora”. The questioner was surprised – I do not know these Gemorahs [you can see here that the guy knew whole Gemora to say that!]. R Salanter said – it says so in _my_ Gemorah. I think he is talking about this expansive way of reading about lives of Tannaim and Amoraim.
This is not to defend my conjecture about ages of marriages, of course 🙂
YS, I see your position: there is a ridiculous price and then there is a price where you can consider trade-offs :). I am with you here.
This still leaves unanswered the question – what are they learning there that cannot be achieved by earlier learning and local learning and a family vacation in EY.
Also, to $40K – maybe they justify it by the full price of having their credits transferred to colleges?
I see these transfers working for several “Jewish colleges” but then one of the two:
1) you are getting FAFSA and lower tuition in college, so seminary still “stands out”
2) you are not getting FAFSA and then you might know of better options, such as higher-quality local colleges, and an idea of transferring credits to a lesser-quality high-price college is not appealing either.
So, not sure who the market is for this.apparently apple was introduced from Latin bonum et malum – good and evil, where malum is also apple.
apple were popular in Europe and Greece, where it was used to start a conflict between idols (idolesses?) leading to Trojan war.
apples seem to be known in EY some time before David, but not that popular. There are tapuchim in Bereshis, not clear if those are actually apples.
I take the criticism on extrapolating from girl’s age to what was a norm. Indeed, we have yevamos cases of groups of brothers and corresponding sisters, dying one after another that are hopefully not daily occurances.
Still, you can look at a variety of cases and get a feeling when a case is a stretch case or reasonably a norm – in the latter case, it is discussed in many situations, with practical details.
So, my feeling is that pre-12 y.o. marriage was not that typical, while possible, but 12-13 bogeres
was closer to the norm. See multitude of cases discussing 12-13 y.o. naara/bogeres engagement issues. Another example – when father sells his daughter into servitude (not that typical), she is expected to be married or go free at the bas mitzvah (as this wold be a typical moment).Also, a notion that a man should not live/visit too long at his in-laws before of mother-in-law there. This hints that husband and bride’s mother are typically close to each other in age. Would not be such a big issue if hatan is 15 and MIL is 40 …
7-11 has a free drink day, would it be Nov 7 in Israel?
I usually use this to discuss with kids that they need to actually buy something before or during the “free” day. Sone matanos.
interesting question whether all changes are only chumros and gezeiros …
first, “greater beis din” was less of the issue in antiquity, as such things happened…
not sure whether conditional get by Dovid was a change or not
allowing moabite women – if not a kula, at least a clarification– changes in school systems and ketuba during BM2 – not really kulos or chumros, just changes searching for successful social results.
– shemen akum – was announced and taken back within a year because people did not accept it.
– writing down Oral Torah
– all post-BM2 changes
– allowing taking money for teaching or even learning Torah and probably other things that are allowed because “our generations are weaker”ok, so I think we all agree that “halakha changed”.
Avira puts a couple of useful caveats to that:
– easier to add chumros, gedorim than other way around based on “greater beis din”
– applications change, but principles stay the sameI mostly agree with these, just pointing out that the serious answer is longer than “halakha did not change”. I actually once – many years ago – tried to be friendly with a C- Rabbi. His first question was “do you agree that halakha change”. I answered “yes”. He then deduced “so, you agree with us?”. Surprised, I answered “no”. He somehow got upset and ended the conversation. Maybe, his expectations were too high after the “yes”.
a gemora discussing birth control doesn’t presume the girl to be married?
shoun, then how about a gemora discussing a joint revocation of girl’s neder by the father and the hatan? this can happen only before 12, and marriage should happen within a yearAvira – They also believe halacha can change. That’s something all of them, left and right, agree to. And it makes them heretics.
yes, indeed. but saying that halacha doesn’t change would make you a tzeduki… we discussed here multiple times how halacha changed over time without making any of us C.
YS, so for $15k, you’ll send the kid?
The difference is – people voted Trump in to overturn and fix the system, and then they voted for Biden to “return to normality”. So, in eyes of the voters, Trump’s shortcomings are price paid for dealing with the issues he did (I listed them before, so I’ll spare). But Biden has no other attraction as being solid and organized. Turns out (not just in this episode) that his strengths were oversold.
Gadol,
“rich” people pay most of the taxes, what is the argument that they should pay even more?Even proportional taxation is not so clear from the first principles: yes, rich may get proportional benefits from the government in, say, protecting their property, but in other aspects – say, voting, medical insurances, the benefits are the same for everyone, so “fair” taxation should be proportional or less.
So, after you skip the intentional lie of “free stuff” for poor, then you can see that reducing taxes is supporting your expressed desire to stop extra spending. The argument that probably comes from Goldwater to Reagan is to “starve the beast”: it is difficult to get rid of a specific program because there are specific beneficiaries – people with bad teeth; missile makers; etc – but there are no particular objections from the taxpayers, as each program is “only $10 per person”… So, the creative solution is to reduce collections to make it harder to spend. Results in a debt? well, the alternative would be to collect more taxes and then increase spending to whatever is possible, leading to a similar debt … for example, pre-Obama debt-to-GDP was 86% just slightly higher than France 70+ and Germany 60%. Obama broke through the Reagan’s trick by increasing spending despite the debt making the ratio 138%, France did similarly, but Germany stayed at 75% (cheap Russian gas and exports to China).
There is nothing new here – Gemora calls government “wailing poor” because they always ask for more.
not charging interest is a form of chesed, so it might be questionable to do it to avdei kochavim. Presumably, you have a decent person in this case, so this might not apply (I think Radaq says this).
I am not sure what the difference is with returning a lost object, maybe because the latter one is really an extreme behavior that most non-Jews do not extend to each other.
SQRT
I thought it is in Nedorim, but could not find so far, sorry. Here are a couple related ones:
Nedarim 81 – pay attention to poor children as Torah comes from them
Nedarim 40 – R Akiva visiting a sick student not visited by anyone and saved him as, apparently, people paid attention to him otherwise (was he poor? AAQ)jackk > wealthy individuals tax breaks which caused the debt to go up 5.9 Trillion dollars.
jackk, we really are able to read propaganda on their original sites if we are interested … If you want to have an ehriche Jewish discussion, please do not refer to not taking someone else’s money as breaks that cause debts. I can tell you more, I am missing out on a lucrative investment right now because jackk did not give me $100K. If you believe in what you say, please figure out my address and wire me a check while bitcoins are so dirt cheap.
> They have no issue sending 800 Billion dollars to the military every year when we are not at war and have not been in a real war for decades.
please refresh your browser, you are reading off 2021 talking points. There is an actual war in Europe going on for almost a year where US military equipment is being used.
Maskil > Claiming that the Torah needs to be hyphenated (e.g. Ethical-Torah ) is a claim that the Torah is Chas vishalom deficient in some way, rl.
right, I agree with the sentiment. But modernity brings this need to define your position. A similar unreasonable term is “Orthodox Judaism” – as if there are others (R’L), but everyone is using the term to define themselves. So, while “ethical O” sounds corny, there is – again R’L – who are not careful on that.
> So sometimes we have people who follow some of the Torah and succumb to their Yetzer hora and act in an unethical manner . This doesn’t reflect negatively on the Torah, Chas vishalom.
This is mamash opposite of what Chazal say on this issue – our inappropriate behavior reflects on how people think of Torah.
Just to see how we view different aspects of Torah – if you were to suggest that it is OK to wait one hour between meat and milk, you will be called apikores and pounded by citations, even as there are no Gemoras that contradict that. And while there are hundreds, if not thousands of Gemoras calling for exquisite thoughtfulness in bein adam l’havero, this is still up to debate.
Asking for a friend: I would be curious to see a teshuva explaining under which conditions insider trading is kosher.
This involves explicitly breaking a contract that a person signs and also ensuing hillul Hashem caused by almost inevitable SEC action.
Is one allowed to break a contract for no good reason?
And even if there is some heter for the contract – mybe the teshuva was written before (or was unaware of) SEC deploying algorithmic search for irregularities in trading.
YS, (putting on a teacher’s hat):
would you really say that $45K is too much to ensure your daughter’s neshoma, continuous (for the year) happiness, and secure future shidduch that comes with a haskoma of the line on the resume?
Eibishte sent you these $45K (even more pre-tax if you happen to have a W2) – how else would you spend it? Now an actual quote from a teacher: and if money is an issue for you, I can help you find a seminary that will take her for free.> From her perspective, the best shot at avoiding being left at the altar with no one, is to get married as early as possible
exactly, that is why this is not going to work out on it’s own, but requires leadership. I think I read Telshe yeshiva in the 70s saying that early marriages are the main causes of family problems in the frum community of that time…
YS > If all Roshei Yeshiva would get together and….”
Rav Steinsaltz wondered aloud why we simply not follow the Gemora that says when all Talmidei Chachamaim would daven together on the same street of Yerushalaim, Moschiach will come.
He also answered – we misunderstand it, It is only when Moschiach will come, such event will happen …
> intensity that brisket yeshivos offer,
I think file mignon yeshivas are more intense, at least from the point of view of required shechita.
Gemora lauds a Rav who did not differentiate between rich and poor kids …
I seriously doubt that Pres. Obama actually gave Joe classified information. Possibly Obama declassified them in his mind before giving them to Joe. (It will be fun when he is called to testify on that). Or, more likely, it was disinformation that was used to make it to Hunter and then to his Russian and Chinese employers.
Possibly it was something that caused Putin believe that he can win over Ukraine and provoked him into a hasty action. Like results of Joe’s IQ test. That’s it. That was the secret.
PIM2C, thanks!! Finally, I was asking here before what happened with ehrliche yidden… this is indeed connected to the topic and shows that there is nothing new here. So, maybe, the pompous statements above do not sound right for some people, but sentiment is correct.
you can _try_ davening in a Mosque, not sure whether you’ll get arrested though. But this is about Muslims being true monotheists, which does not prevent them from committing other atrocities, like quickly forgotten ISIS or still out there Iranians.
RBZS, you can make a case that Ukrainians might be guilty of something like what you say – they were close partners to Russians in Soviet Russia and now when they got their own state – and thus full responsibility for their actions, they might not have fully reconsidered some of the darker pages of their history.
Still, it is nonsense to discuss this in the context of the brutal invasion. Hashem punishes at his own level, we do not need to support (or not condemn) brutality. This is akin to Egyptians being at fault for prosecuting Jews, even as Hashem seemingly required it. You don’t have to be on the part of punishers. As Avraham Heschel writes about Spanish Jewry (really about German) – who were expelled right at the time of American acquisition – they were lucky to be victims (of inquisition) and not part of the perpetrators (of conquista)
I had same thought as Square Root: Russians expected increased dependency on their gas during winter and Hashem relieved it somewhat. This seems to be a machloket whether we expect Hashem to intercede as open miracles or hidden ones: when Rav Huna realizes that he was wrong not to pay salary to the workers who already stole his wares, his spoiled vinegar either turned back into the wine (one opinion) or the market price of the vinegar increased. So, here is a precedent of Hashem interceding into the markets, most likely through weather events.
at the end, people are usually in charge: according to a Midrash, Pharaoh first resisted persecuting Jews but succumbed to popular pressure; Jews did not go to EY because of popular outcry; and Hitler, Stalin, and Putin depended on popular madness that they carefully cultivated.
not sure what the issue is, but maybe other members of the community should be allowed to do something “different” as long as it is not bad or harmful. Maybe low self-esteem does not allow you to do what you think is the right thing for you?
Maybe this discussion will be more grounded if the proponents start simple. Rather than making grandiose statements, pick up specific gemoras that discuss what you would call “ethical behavior” and then make implications to current life.
This statement has very good intentions but very vague so it could be mis-directed, same way as “tikkun olam” by Reform. That is why you are immediately met with criticism here.
On the positive side, I heard specific statements along these lines from many “standard/RW orthodoxy” Rabonim, and if you read from R Salanter to R Avigdor Miller, you will find similar sentiment. R Miller, for example, suggests that batei dinim will be administering punishments to bad drivers.
Focusing on “saving an idolater” is an interesting theoretical bit to clarify positions, but it does not deny my experience thinking about saying gomel after driving through a parking lot in a “frum” town [several drivers dashing in front of me, a pair of frum drivers waiting to be towed after bumping into each other, and others driving around them creating further havoc, several children from B’H large families standing alone in the cars way]. There are many areas we can improve without getting into obscure issues.
> we should look at our forefathers during this crisis for a solution (as Klal Yisroel has always done)
a good approach! Do we have examples of Klal Isroel using polygamy as an emergency solution? Or at least, at the times before R Gershom increasing polygamy from a rare occurrence to a frequent practice?
Note that we had this problem at least once: when Jewish numbers were increasing dramatically during Yetziyas Mitzraim! Maybe it was mitigated by men being killed off directly or in labor camps.
Maybe that is why Amram marries his aunt? (presumably older than, say, a niece)Here are several possible solutions for parity under rapid growth, what do you think?
1) re-institute a 2-stage marriage with 1-2 years in between. I don’t think R Gershom forbade that!
This still means that the shidduch is done for immature people, but at least they are matched up and mature at the time of the chuppah. This is very similar to what was done in Eastern Europe in troubled times when children were matched up way early.2) nudge men to marry earlier. This goes against the trend of delaying maturity (of which extra yeshiva time is just one manifestation). Solution would be to teach in the yeshiva how to be a good husband and support the family. Sign up prenups that the boy can continue learning.
3) nudge women to marry later. This would lead to more mature marriages, but goes both against girls’ instincts and social pressure and also boys preferring “younger”. Maybe Roshei yeshiva can order their students not just to stay in the “freezer” but also no brides under 22 or pay back previously subsidized tuition (say, $1K multiplied by months before kallah’s 22).
4) focus kiruv on college women more than men. Pay shadchanus fee to college Hillel and Chabad Rabbis.
As mentioned above, Muslim rulers included Almahids that Rambam ran away from and thought to be the worst (not that he moved to artzot ashkenaz, of course 🙂
coffee, this is why democracy was not considered a viable system until recently. People with chochma need to establish guiderails for people to limit their collective greed.