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I had to scroll up to see if that was some other yankel berel who wrote that these are young vulnerable kids who learned for 4 years, but already learned rov geonim veposkim.
If you are really serious, maybe this is a good time to define a psychometry type test to measure learning, and those who pass can somehow justify an exemption, charedi or not.
It is also scary then that someone with such learning can fall vulnerable to tzahal… as we know talmid chacham will do teshuva in the morning if you see him doing an aveirah in the evening. So, if you send someone to tzahal and he comes back and continues learning, it was wrong to send him; but if he comes back otd, then he wasn’t talmid chochom to begin with, and he was justifiable drafted. Sort of a breira.
Ok, and then how many of those 18 y o qualify under this definition?
>> “if you know aleph teach aleph”
> cliff in pitch dark.I heard the same admiring expression about aleph used by R Mordechai Shapiro Z’L. Of course when appropriate. I don’t think either speaker meant anything kabbalistic or set theory of Georg Cantor.
yankel, will wait, but you can start by simply saying what your current assumptions are what is T’Ch to whom halochos are applicable. you surely had something in mind when referring to it.
Market-fare v law-fare. Getting interesting.
yankel,
I am not deciding anything here, just trying to understand the issue. entitlement attitude does not start & end with a specific issue of draft. Before going to exemptions, let’s start from the beginning – what are person’s position & obligation towards a community and a country. If you agree that you part of the community, then certain obligation might apply or not. Say, Bava Basra says town dwellers need to contribute to protection. T’Ch do not need protection and thus only contribute to upkeep and not security.One major question here is who is a T’Ch here. As you mention above, you are thinking of a vulnerable 18-y.o. with 4 years of yeshiva. We are bnot talking about exempting Roshe Yeshivos.
There is YD 243:2, for example. What does it say?
There are many mailos of a T’Ch not all of them strictly halachik,. Here is a couple that might be halachik:
If you see a T’Ch doing aveira in the evening (sic!), do not reprimand him in the morning as he surely did teshuva. So, anyone who did not do teshuva for an aveira for a day is not T’Ch?Just came up in B’M daf: you can give T’Ch his lost object without simanim if he is only known to change his words re: learning, bed, having good dinners. So, anyone who said something crooked unjustified is not a T’Ch for this halakha….
All of that does not mean that there are no good reasons to keep 18-yo away from non-religious army. But if you appreciate that you have an obligation and looking to justify avoiding spiritual dangers, then start actively working on alternatives that could at least partially compensate. Organize fully chareidi units; help with training; work in cyber security; take jobs from people who are deployed (major limitation of Israeli army is that most large operations have to be quick to return people to work, can’t afford a standing army …); work more than others to pay for the things that even Talmidei Chachamim are supposed to pay – roads, water, electricity … If you don’t, that is what I call “entitlement attitude”.
Anon, right answer! DaMoshe B+ on a harder question. Also r Salanter. R Kotler is the one not like others.
Common and Besht attack litvishe rabonim for not having fun, fathering phds and otds. I didn’t study whether these two degrees have correlation or causation or neither. Chofetz Chaim blamed the Times: whwhis daughter asked for a brocha to have kosher children, he gave her one to have many children.
Square root may be not rational, but he is real.
RebE > Trump, according to a book by chief of staff
Right, Mordechai also had people saying things about him.
yankel> exempt talmidei hahamim from contributing funds to the defense of the city they inhabit .
So, it seems to me that there are two possible approaches to justify non-participation:
(1) medina is built by non/anti-religious people, many mitzvos do not apply towards them, so l’hathila there is no shared obligation, we are protecting ourselves from them
(2) halachik exemptions for Talmidei ChachamimOn (1), I appreciate historical and cultural tradition, with religious community being confronted by various ideologies. I do not think it applies to current day government and, even more, population. Israel is full of non-charedi shomer shabbos and stam masorti people, they are represented in the government, and mitzvos apply towards them for sure. Many, many of the other ones are tinokos shenishba (by earlier generations of anti-religious). These are people you will daven with together in a minyan at the kosel, so other mitzvos also apply.
On (2), maybe we can have a serious discussion what this implies. Who qualifies; what obligations and non-obligations are T’Ch entitled to; do they need agreement of others or can T’Ch demand their rights. Many, manhy questions here. For example, same Bava Basra brings an example of R Yehuda’s student who refused to admit his learning in order to get food during famine. This seems to be the opposite of the entitlement attitude.
avira > rav shach received a lot of criticism from brisk
here we go again. If someone else disagrees w/ Rav Schach, then he is an apikoires. But my group can. Can we all have equal rights here?
doom > Sharing the burden may be a good midah in general, but every middah should be evaluated. Charity is also an important middah … The fundamental of being a frum Jew, is declaring that Hashem’s word is of highest importance in your value system
Thanks for posting a reasonable argument! Having someone else defend you, against his will, does not seem to me to fit into Jewish value system. Pages and pages of gemorah are spend on how to be considerate of other Yidden. Having them serve in the army instead of you seems worse than not helping his animal to unload…
> If your commander orders you to do something prohibited by the Torah, you must do it.
As you look at serving as an optional activity, this is surely a justification not to go. But if you look at a joint need for defense of the community that you have to participate – then, this is something that you have no control of while you are engaged in an activity. Steipler was trying to keep shabbos in Russian army .. and many others
> all of my friends went to the Army, and almost all came in frum, and came out OTD.
this is terrible, and if the numbers are so skewed as you say, even startling. There are a couple of questions to ask:
1) what was their education that did not prepare them to deal with real life. Yes, there is a great value in keeping community safe from problematic activities, but at the end, it is up to individuals to follow Torah. Is Hashem expects us to follow Torah only when fully furnished and subsidized? It is an insult to our ancestors and everything they went through.
2) if you understand responsibility, then you can work on making things happen. Same way the community shows power to protect itself and also find government funds to use, could use this power to make sure that some members of the community are trained to be part of charedi units and deal with tensions between army orders and observance.
Like Trump, Mordechai was under-appreciated despite his service to the country; he rejected conventional courtesy and annoyed his enemy to no end; tried to overturn appointment of his nemesis; he was sued and gallows were prepared; everything he achieved involved charming women; and, at the end, he was favored just by “bare majority”.
yankel > I can’t see any inference from said Rambam to the question of joining the army
Just think it through: what was Rambam’s shitah about surviving in the desert? Did he expect the country government (reshaim that are causing the exile to begin with) to protect the desert community with taxes and army?
Avira > Rav shach said in the 80s that this psak no longer applies. Under Menachem begin, things were different.
Note that Rav Schach advised against an agreement between Haredi politicians and Begin to have fully gov-funded haredi schools in order not to lose ability to maintain private support.
We had before Presidents that fit Achashverosh role, but Biden fits the best. Declaring his kesher to Mordechai and then giving his stamp of approval to Haman in all languages of UN.
Hakatan, you can disassociate from groups you don’t like, it is fine by me. But then you need to make sure that you live an honest life without taking more than you are giving, whether you are in EY or in Stamford Hill. If you don’t want to rely on idf, negotiate with the government to move to an area adjacent to the border and organize your own self defense, either train fully chareidi militia, or pay Wagner group, or daven. Same for financial support. If you push for such resolution politically, you may not get immediate agreement from most ardent Zs, but you will get a lot more support and respect from regular Israelis.
> Satmar isn’t responsible for every idiot who quotes them wrongfully
We have concepts of being responsible for creating wrong impressions
@yankel, you mentioned menorah against haskala, I am just saying that not everything that was appearing at the time was wrong. It is possible that immediate reaction to close the gates of the ghetto, yes helped to keep many inside, but also left others permanently outside. We are somewhat better now Dealing with modern world, and both haskalists and traditionalists made imperfect decisions at the time. Not blaming anyone, it was an unprecedented challenge.
Yankel, right, I refer to that conversation. I am just exploring what this implies. I don’t think Rambam demanded Army protection in the desert, but expected to fend for yourself.
Chaim, I do understand that there are cases of unfair prosecution and other injustices. I am just suspicious when a member of a certain group considers most prosecution of his group unfair. What are the chances that every black arrested by police is innocent? same for the Jews …
This attitude is just creating a license for the group to misbehave further. If we could stay away from helping illegals getting fake documents; keep one set of books; do not commit wire fraud and use welfare programs beyond the bare minimum, those anti-semite will have a hard time building a case against us, right?
Participant (and we all are), I think I responded to someone else. I see a problem with your argument that you talk like a consumer: those in power owe you a justification for you to agree to something. Think like a free religious person about your obligation to Hashem and other Yidden. Someone (a person or a community) who lives together with others needs to participate in the society. If you think Army is not doing something right, vote and raise your own officers and push your policies. Sometimes, in a democracy, you have to even accept a decision that you think is wrong.
“Yeshiva as a Maimonidean desert” that Chazon Ish created is not a correct analogy. Living in a desert presumes you take care of yourself, not erquesting others to send an army to protect your oasis.
All sides of this discussion of the conditions in EY omit the question – about all Yidden who found refuge there from Russian and Turkish Empires, then Russian revolution, then Stalin, then Nazis, then commies in Eastern Europe, then from Arab revolutions and mullahs and terrorists. Imagine Jews in Aleppo staying there until ISIS arrived … It is not just about 100 people who could beg the locals to put chairs near the kosel.
Answering that they could have gone to USA, British Empire, South Africa & America does not fully answer – not everyone was able to travel there, and many rapidly assimilated. Those who came to EY even under most hardened commies, had Jewish grandchildren, who still have a chance to do teshuva. And many Rabonim did not recommend going to the golden medina either.
smerel, I am talking about 1920-30s specifically. I’ve read a very detailed thesis on the topic some years ago and it sounded convincing. Sochnut centralized funds provided by private donors and directed them to agriculture rather than cities as original donors preferred. Manufacturing in cities was able to provide a living and an economically viable community. Agriculture was losing money, so more and more funds were required to support them.
German Jews in particular were reluctant to come during early nazi years, leaving their parnosa behind.
Yidden who moved from Europe to EY pre ww2 escaped commies and nazis. Did old yishuv have a plan to absorb all these people without zionim? Did they have funds to feed them or to create jobs for them?
Zionim were at fault diverting funds from donors from tel Aviv manufacturing to kibbutzim. Manufacturing was able to support more jobs in tel Aviv and would enable more German jews to come. Kibbutzim were ideological goal but didn’t create enough productive jobs, limiting lives saved.
@yankel, there never was a concensus to keep Yidden away from contemporary science. There were, and are, Yidden and talmidei chachamim who learnt and debated with their contemporary non Jewish chachamim. Of course, not everyone should, or could, do that.
Avira, Jews were not taking EY by force. They came as farmers or city dwellers (with a big machlokes between the two groups, first more ideological, second – more practical, first one won and less people came before WW2). Yidden in Eastern Europe were collecting money in their shuls for “workers in EY”, not “fighters”. Fighting was in self-defense as you suggest.
Avira > And during the Holocaust, fighting would have only ensured that no one survived
Pre-WW2 Europe, including Poland, deluded itself despite nearby presence of USSR and Nazis. In interwar Poland, Yidden were fighting each other and Poles were fighting each other as in any healthy democracy, except it was not healthy and under external threats. OK, Poles are traditionally brave but not very learned, but maybe Yidden instead of figuring out which schools to go to,, could figure out that Nazis and Soviets are building tanks and airplanes instead of doubling down on horses.
> punishment for some of these piety crimes are mortally wrong.
Indeed, we learn from the Megilla that an insurrection is punished mortally. Even when they are undocumented Persians speaking in foreign language!
Chaim, your list of “wrongfully convicted” is scarily long. We live in a country that is way nicer to us than many others we lived in. Their laws are not perfect, but pretty reasonable. Maybe it should be a minhag Yisroel to show our appreciation by staying way to the right of the line between legal and not, so that “unfair” prosecutions do not happen. With so many business opportunities and even availability of “free money”, it is not impossible to choose a path in life that does not create unnecessary risks. If our forefathers were able to stay Jewish under Russian czars and Persian kings without selling out, surely we can make a little effort.
CTL, refuah shleima. I am happy to hear that you are reasonable here. There is another problem here – criminal/civil charges are inevitably comingled with political ones. Political ones are subject to constant lies from the media. So, inevitably, law is losing respect of people who see the political mud fight. Chaim shows us a good example how people can nullify the legal system this way.
Unreported in the US but heard locally, Lord Balfour’s painting was destroyed in Cambridge (real one, not MA, USA). I was suspecting NK punished him for violating drei shevuos, but I am not sure they are allowed to approach paintings, especially in a college named after AZ.
Lost, Obama presided over post-crisis economy. Growth rate was lowest comparing with similar recovery periods. Possibly, he did not bother growing it to make sure no new downturn comes before 2016 elections?
Obama had forces in ME, but we were not winning. Obama’s policies were restricting military. Each strike had to be approved from the White House legal council. Read it up. Read, for example, about Gen McCrystal who had a distinguished career … Maybe let’s look at contemporary reports:
CNN December 7, 2016
SIS’ march across Iraq and Syria – a campaign that’s forced President Barack Obama to return small numbers of US troops to the region, even after touting an end to the decade-long ground offensives there – came as a surprise to US intelligence, the President told CNN in a new special report.
..
As Obama’s presidency concludes, it’s clearer than ever he’ll depart the White House with Syrians facing nearly unyielding misery.
..
Avoiding a large scale ground conflict in Syria “is the smartest decision from a menu of bad options that were available to us,”
…
Some of Obama’s generals wanted to keep 10,000 US troops in Iraq to maintain stability in the country as it emerged from a decade of war. But …
The efforts have squeezed ISIS on the battlefield, reducing its territory and taking out key figures in its leadership. A campaign to retake Mosul, the group’s base in Iraq, is making progress.more purim shailohs
Did Achashverosh call himself Xerxes 1?
Was it ayn hara to call a war “world war one”?
Why are kevuros of Shmuel Alef and Shmuel Beis in different places?
Why is Sinwar 50 amot down, while Aman was 50 amot up? Olam afuch
Whose son got a PhD? Chofetz Chaim, Rav Salanter, Rav Henkin, Rav Kotler,or Rav Soloveichik?
Those who want their own protection should negotiate with any surrounding country or polity to allow them to settle there. Maybe Egypt will be interested in settling Sinai with Jews. This is a place of history of Jews learning under Hashem’s protection. Hizbollah is also very religious and they might be interested in having a buffer between them and Zionists.
King’s English name was Xerxes or Artaxerxes. Greeks might call him Xerox – because he was always copying other people’s ideas and spending OPM (other people’s money – see taxes). That is why we praise Esther for quoting bshem amro rather than xeroxing without attribution.
> they just usurped the NK name
who stole the original ones? or they had no followers except the usurpers?
You don’t want the president to be double-checking his decisions – what if I’ll be sued for that? He is delegated certain authorities and he is checked by other branches of government, this should be enough. If Congress wants, they can restore office of independent prosecutor.
And you would create wrong incentives. Look at Putin – he would probably gladly retire if someone could guarantee him life & liberty after that. So, he has to stay in power.
yechiell, there are a number of opinion writers who are critical of T, while admitting that they have no problems with the actual policies of his administration. You started with Kurds – T resolved the situation in probably best possible way. Recall that he also dealt decisively with ISIS there. The thing is – solving an issue does not pay politically, nobody remembers ISIS at this point. Imagine Biden standing up to Putin early in 2022 and making it really clear to him that the world will defend Ukraine? Maybe joint exercises in Feb 2022 on Ukrainian/Russian border? A couple of Tomahawks near Russian troops in Syria? Everybody will be saying now that it was not such a big deal.
Avira > we know from people who were there at the time how the chofetz chaim felt
I think you wrote about this before, I do not recall exactly what it is. What is the chance that the people “who were there at the time” are ideologically aligned with you? We all often tend to believe unconfirmed sources that align with our own position.
My information comes from a 2-volume collection of Ch Ch letters published & translated by a pro-yeshiva velt organization, so I am not afraid that they show some pro-modern bias or omissions. To the opposite, they do not hesitate to add yeshivish geshmak – when Ch Ch writes about anti-religious books, they add in italics: all media, internet. When Ch Ch mentions anti-religious schools, they translate “secular schools”. So, I am pretty sure if there were any additional material, it would be there. I may have missed something, of course, but most other themes – build chadorim, mikvaos, shabbos are repeated in multiple letters and are impossible to miss.
Apparently, there was a Jezebel restaurant in Soho 10 years ago, but OU asked it to change the name. So, Jezebel might have been kosher for Eliahu but not anymore. Standards are rising.
Also, I found someone pondering whether Rambam holds by shevuot and remarking that he found only 2 places where Rambam paskens using Agadah …
Finally, if you are taking Agadot seriously, pay attention to BM 20 where R Amaram asked a silly question of Rabba, and Rabba called him a name, and a building beam cracked up .. and both seemingly said that it cracked because of insult to him. Seems like some questions and some answers are capable of destroying the whole yeshiva. Be careful. I am thinking about renaming myself into AAAQ – always ask appropriate questions. Maybe after Purim, bli neder.
From a leftist source:
Donald Trump on Sunday said Israel should quickly end the war in Gaza and “get back to the world of peace”—but it’s not what it sounds like.The once and possibly future president was not urging Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to stop the bombing or withdraw Israeli troops. Quite the contrary: Trump was prodding him to intensify and accelerate the military campaign, “to finish it up and do it quickly.”
He lambasted President Biden not for going easy on Israel, as leftist critics charge, but for applying pressure on Israel at all. “Biden is so bad for Israel,” Trump said. “They should’ve never been attacked. If Biden were good to Israel, they wouldn’t have been attacked.”
Another thought based on reading Chofetz Chaim letters that do not seem to contain condemnation of Palestinian Zionists and mention of shevuos. Any Rabbi who was writing publicly in the time of early Zionists and does not mention shevous should be presumed to not hold by them. It might be murkier later on, when state politics might make someone more or less vocal on the issue, but European Rabbonim, like Ch Ch had all opportunities to express their opinions. We know, for example, where R Elhonon Wasserman was holding. Did he quote his teacher, Ch Ch?
Avira, it is true that Chofetz Chaim was talking to those who will listen to him and who were to at least some degree observant. But, there was no strict separation. For example, he writes that it is wrong to fathers to be observant themselves, while their wives and children break shabbos, read anti-religious papers and books, attend anti-religious schools. That is what was “frum society” in Poland in the 20s. It was under attack. He lists, by name, many organizations that he supports, and many, by name, that he is against. The fault in the organizations he objects to are wholesale rejection of Yiddishkeit, focusing on Jewish stories that omit religious content.
We also all know that Ch Ch endorsed Bais Yaakov. Despite that, I could not find any letters that advocate any organized education for women. He addresses the women directly several times – in letters and speeches in front of women conventions. He suggests women to organize to support chadarim, suggest for women who know how to read to teach those who do not know – specifically halochos niddah. In one letter, he summarizes all these laws in a couple of pages to help in that. I do not see him suggesting ways to teach those illiterate women how to read.
There are several letters that Chofetz Chaim published after an earthquake in EY in 1927. He mentions several other devastating events that happened shortly before, including flooding of Mississippi and then he enumerates aveiros that lead to that and that Klal Isroel should try to correct… a perfect setup to mention sins of Zionists and violations of Oaths. And he is not being shy in these letters – he calls on people to send kids to kosher schools, naming the opposite ones – yiddishistes, culturual schools, (Zionist affiliated?) Tarbut, Polish gymnasia, blaming them for anti-religious propaganda, including telling “Jewish” stories that excluded Torah contents; and Polish schools for leading to shabbos violations. What he does NOT mention in his criticism, as far as I can see – any sins by Zionists in EY, any mention of calls for Aliya in Poland, and, for that matter, any studies of math & science.