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Neville > You didn’t have to go to the top 1% back 100 years ago–or even 50 years ago–to find respectably dressed goyim.
Well, sort of. This is along the lines of R Avigdor Miller that old books had more morals. I am not sure this applies to lower classes. Many were totally ignorant and drunk, depends on the country somewhat. They may have had bulkier dresses but they also had houses to raise children of unmarried low classes. Not sure whether this matters, we agree that the standard needs to be higher than “average”, proper to someone meeting a King. Surely, a peasant is not at that level in the old society, whether he wore a hat and socks or not.
as I mentioned, this is because of a biased correction. If they would have simply missed some groups, then all polls would be off by 2% but there would be variation between polls and for same poll over time. As some analysts noticed, the polls stayed suspiciously synchronized and stable over time.
What can we learn from this? Sometimes, we can apply good thinking but be burdened by unjustified assumptions that bias us towards certain opinion that we hold historically, or because we were raised in a certain hashkofa, or because it is comfortable … We need to always analyze our intellectual biases. It is often hard to do on your own. A lot of analysis in Bavli is about that type of discussion. And, hopefully, discussions here, when done in a right way, help us to see issues from different perspectives.
Students from the Mir Yeshiva, 1938
ttps://encyclopedia.yivo.org/media/963Iraqi Jews early 20th century
https://breakingmatzo.com/wp-content/uploads/Iraqi_Jews.jpgThere might be over-estimation of Ds, BUT the data is corrected after that – and this year they are correcting using more factors than before. This is in theory more accurate, but can introduce a bias as the correction is based on some assumptions about voting population. Ok, you might reasonably assume that ratio of D and R voters will be same as last time (will it?), but when you also include age, area, income, etc – your assumptions essentially guide your polling correction.
It is not just mobile phones, response rates are now very low. One way to deal with it is to re-weight results using demographics to account for non-random responses. Previous weighting by a small number of factors – party, age, gender, education, etc – was proven not to be sufficient when alliances change, like with Trump. So, this year pollsters seem to be using more weighting. As some researchers point out that because of this increased weighting current polling is abnormally stable over time and, at some point, reflects your weighting assumptions instead of actual voter preferences. So, at this point, there are 2 possible outcomes: or vote will be indeed very close and take long time to sort out, or one of the candidates is way ahead and polls systematically made the same error. In the latter case, it is more likely that T was “misunderestimated” but there is no guarantee that there was not a over-compensation the other way. Note that campaigns have way more internal data and you can try getting clues by where the candidates are campaigning at the end – defending their own or attacking in new areas.
Neville> I’ve not seen convincing evidence that this means we model ourselves after the goyim,
We have photos of both sephardim and ashkenazim from 100+ years ago. Most of them dress like locals. I don’t know what the “modern” position is, but my personal is that we need to use not “average” goyishe dress, but top 1 to 10% – those who are eligible to see the King. Obviously, Polish peasants did not wear charedi dress, poritzim did. Of course, there were Jews who dressed like peasants, but it is not the standard for us.
> great Papa Bar Abba once remarked in one of these CR discussions, all of religion is one big “no true Scotsman” shmooze
Who am I to argue with the rishonim … I am not even an aharon … We just to define who the SCotsman are. I am defining them as Talmidei Chachamim who have a grasp of Torah, you seem to define them as those who follow exactly same derech. As, say, R Moshe, R Soloveichik, Lubaviche Rebbe were respectful of each other, I would include all of them – and those how any of them respected – into the circle.
>> “as we developed more sophisticated ways to deal with modernity.”
> Which is what? Surrendering to secularism and liberal academia?I think every reasonable response that we have now is more effective than what was there 200 years ago – whether it is lakewood yeshiva, bays yaakov, or chabad houses, or Ohr Sameach, or modern day schools. Note that there is no tension right now between science and Torah as ideology. In certain times, there was. Many rabonim objected to Mendelhson translation as it led to Jews learning hochdeutsche and that to mixed dancing. Anyone is objecting to Artscroll nowadays? I personally try teaching children that Torah is by Jews but yesh chochma b’goyim, and it is not a problem to learn chochma. And then train them to separate chochma from liberal and secular stuff by discussing every issue and defining what the Torah outlook on that issue is.
xCTL > Fafsa is only open to US Citizens
I don’t think so, green card and refugees, for sure, and asylum seekers with valid docs also.
Neville > , but this traditionally was not true.
college prices go up way higher than inflation, and private higher than public, so do the math (if you took it).
My experience is with ASU and U of FL, their prices are lower than comparable private in midwest and northeast. It may be different in other places.
Also, online now is highly competitive – as the competitor is just a click away.keith > where they are beginning to accept aboriginal mythology as equivalent to science!
even if this is true, you don’t HAVE TO (so far) to tka it, you can take normal science. As xCTL says, educated parents can help student take reasonable classes at reasonable prices.
> how could any of minhag lita that is based on the Gra exist before the Gra?
How is debatable that Chassidim changed minhagim – whether in Lita or other places also? I don’t think any chassidim disagree with. Community separation went beyond davening – separate kehillot and shehita, leading to decrease in community income from taxes on meat and candles, etc.
I am not learned enough to evaluate how Gra’s changes relate to Chassidut. I’ve read that some of the R Chaim Volozhiner work is a response to chassidut, and I think mussar might be influenced also, but do not about the Gra.
> Bare in mind
Can we not have pornography on this site?! Even in mind
Baki, if you are addressing someone in particular with this generic statement, maybe you should refer to that statement. I am sure you are pointing at a line on your screen, but we do not see that.
qwerty > but it’s true that there’s reward and punishment.
so, what is your reading of this story where some incompetent people almost lost this boy who came on their own and Chabad was able to help him? Make fun that you think their philosophy was not up to your standards? R Dessler writes that every person is trying to ascend up the “sulam Yaakov”; people differ at where they are; and also what tools they have; and those who do not have appropriate tools would use any tool they can find. Same applies to those who are trying to help. If someone saves you form drowning – would you sue them for hurting you during CPR?
For good, but not top level students, look at quality out-of-state state colleges, preferably online version.
These colleges look for out-of-states, as their in-state enrollment is limited to state subsidies. So, you benefit from their reputation, earned by in-state selectivity, pay more than in state, but still way less than comparable private. Online gets you another 50% discount.
I had a question on Rambam that, turns out, others had to – was not Rambam supported by his brother David? So, a close reading of a letter from Rambam describing his feelings after his brother disappeared in Indian ocean shows that:
1) David was trading on the property that partly belonged to Rambam
2) David himself was Rabmab’s sharp student in TorahSo, their arrangement was a joint venture between two T’Ch, not a Z/Y.
a better question would be – what are we doing to support T’Ch the proper way – by giving them a priority in business and partnering with them in business. I used to buy esrogim from talmidei chachamim, some were old, others were young, but this practice seems to end in our locality. Any financial advisors that would take T’Ch’ money with no fee? Any real estate agents that will rent out their apartments?
> Who do you think was supporting the educational system set in place by Yehoshua ben Gamla?
Community funds supported teachers for little children with prescribed maximums of students per teacher. These teachers were, ideally, not doing anything except caring for the children. There is one example in Bava Basra of a teacher who went to look at his garden after 13 years and was still thinking of students. Another in Bava Mtz, I think, of a teacher who skipped teaching another rav’s kids because he had a fantastic crop of fruits – and is reprimanded for that. More importantly, this discussion in Bava Basra depicts several methods that were tried. Clearly, the preference was for the method that worked, not for some preconceived idea. And it took seemingly a number of generations to figure it out. So, we should also be open to experimentation.
> Yissocher and Zevulan predate even that.
I am not sure what is historical here, but it is a volunteer contract between two people. Not a request for charity (difference explain in SA and by R Moshe). Often, between relatives or brothers. Vayikra Rabbah 25:2. Hillel was not supported by his brother Shavna … Mechaber seems to be explaining in a teshuva that this is allowed in extreme poverty.It seems that some version of Midrash and Rambam understand Y/Z as the earner (active partner) using assets of the learner (passive partner) in his business, not just working on his behalf.
I agree that we lack people who work half day and learn half day. I do know, though, a number of full-time employed engineers and professors who are clearly T’Ch. I did not have a chance to ask them how many hours a day they learn. Some of them may not know everything that a F/T learner of the same intellect does, but, at the same time, they know some things that the F/T learners do not.
There is also something that works in both directions: a T’Ch when he engages in business is able to earn quick and easy money and go back to learning. Similar,y someone who has good professional skills, can understand a sugya much faster. I agree that we do not have enough people in the “golden middle” that Rambam seems to suggest – as in other middos. Maybe someone got to be like Rambam to reach that.
OC 91:6
off the bat, it says this is derech chachamim and talmideichem .. here, the argument seems to be circular or at least aspirational: let’s all wear black hats and voilà, we are T’Ch. Could it be that some people who come to shul are not T’Ch or at least are modest enough not to consider themselves as such?2nd, atufim – is this a hat or a turban? Or as Rava b’ R Huna in Shabbat 10 – socks ? I am all in for requiring socks in shul, by the way.
3rd, as DaMoshe mentions, everyone refers to the standard of the time of what is respectful clothing. We seem to have a machlokes here what is considered “standard of the time” – something that is respectable in the general society (not “average” rapper, but average professor or congressman, John Fetterman excluded) or should we go by the standards of the current Jewish community. Would you agree with this?
I have to note that referring to the Jewish community standard, this becomes “no true Scotsman” fashion. You simply declare that your community is the standard and, thus, everyone else is in violation of OC and are, thus, not proper community. Of course, at some point – probably 18th century, Yidden clearly adopted standard Polish dress and then (some) refused to change it. I personally think that wearing 18th century jacket was a reasonable idea when 19th century jacket represented haskala and there was a good reason to stand firm against it. I do not think, though, that we are still in the same boat, as we developed more sophisticated ways to deal with modernity. Reasonable people can disagree here, of course.
Not every chabadnik is meshichus
BUT
every meshichus is chabadnik
Pale was due to the following: Russia did not allow Jews to their country up to 18th century. Then, they conquered part of Poland and other countries with large Jewish population. So, Jews were allowed to live where they lived but not into “Russia proper”. There were exceptions for professionals, such as doctors, large merchants, rabbis. R Salanter when he had a need to travel into Russia, he learned some ink-related trade so that he could travel legally. His student, R Yetzele Peterburger
Neville > I don’t think this post is about the times with Chassidim controversially don’t say tachanun, but rather when Litvaks controversially DO
How is the fact that someone in Baghdad did not say tachanun affected what happened in Vilna? Chassidim changed minhagim of their communities, not litvakim. The only controversy about litvakim is their extraordinary effect on Ashkenaz in general, given that this was a small country.
By the way, note that parsha Noach mentions Ashkenaz, but not Sepharad, Lubavich or Uman.
Sanhedrin 6?
pure somethingkeit> I wasn’t referring to the Rambam itself i was referring to the attitude
could you explain what lines in OP are not from Rambam so that we can review?
If this is true, then average adult IQ for ujm household is 97.5?
BUT average IQ is, by definition, 100. So if men are 99 and women are 97, then there are some malochim or mazikin with a higher IQ that make it come to 100 as an average.
DJT, both stock and person, is a good illustration of the danger of ayn hara. Better follow gemora advice and build your towers and web services private and away from the cities.
Tikkun Olam did not start in Hamburg.
I can’t recall – is it Rambam using the word tikkun olam in the introduction to Mishnei Torah or, more likely, kessef Mishna says that in response to criticism.
R Berel Wein says that if there are 100 Yidden in town, Hashem wants to see one shul with 100 people. Yidden open 10 shuls with 10 people and end up with 11 shuls and 9 people. Well, 100 people makes it OOT …
SQRT, I don’t think R Miller quoted Tolkien, he was talking about classical classics, like Dickens.
Neville actually got my point – the end line of this jokey thought is that, absent strict halachik guidelines, I am surely take into account opinions of important people in my life, starting with my wife. You should also ask your wives to vote.
There is a story about an Israeli Rov running a small yeshiva; he would travel to US for a month to collect funds. With time and children, his wife started complaining that she can not manage without him. The Rov did not want to close the yeshiva, so he asked a shaila. Posek asked him – what percentage of collection the Rav takes for his family. Nothing, of course – it all goes to the students. Posek suggested to charge what others charge – and the wife was now able to manage somehow … Maybe, apply same approach when you want to enhance your observance in terms of time, effort, and money spent, make sure it is done the way your household feels good about it.
OOTers have whatsup and text groups that count from 1 to 10 (or from 10 to 1) nightly. Some of these are for dwindling minyanim, others for convenient times, others for vacation periods.
VOSIZNEIZ> opinion of R’ Chaim Kanievsky ZTL. So you should take off your hat for him
I retract. This is usually where you are supposed to “eat your hat”. For that, one should have a hat, have it made from a kosher animal that was properly schechted. I fail on the first condition.
Unfortunately, Sheilas Rav seems to be pretty succinct with “asur”, so we can speculate on the reasoning. Could it reflect the social attitude of the charedi community in Israel standing up for their community? Do we have similar psakim in previous generation (his father, Chazon Ish) when charedim was just starting, and in previous generations. R Chaim Ozer?
Chaim > 538 has Trump at 52% chance of winning
now, 51.2%. This is getting so close to 50.0% that I am sure that my votes will decide the election. Still thinking, in which states I should do that.
PS If voting is a mitzvah, do you say sheyhianu only first time during each election?
Khan academy, Beast Acadmy and others make math problem into fun contexts, especially for younger ages!
But real games – checkers/chess/go. In my opinion, it is a must if you want to become a T’Ch. These games require strategic thinking, sevorah, and, most importantly, you verify your intellect against a worthy opponent. You can’t simply claim that you mastered this game by sitting in a shiur if you lost 10 out of 10 games. So, after you master it, you know the level of your thinking and also what types of thinking you are good or bad at – intuition, long analysis, creative, memorization. You can apply results directly to your learning and also to working on improvements. Maybe the best would be to play with your yeshiva/seminary chevrusos. Then, you would know whose opinion to value in learning. FWIW, R Feinstein played chess until he was 9 when he felt that the game was interfering with his learning.
Gedol, why are you ruining the party? People were just warming up! As I conjectured in another thread, Rambam would not be allowed into some of the modern yeshivos, so he would have to stick to medical schools and astronomy.
CA, ayn hara – went down today. Hope you did not buy on peak. Some speculate that DJT is a measure of T election chances (see another thread), but I think it is too easy to manipulate. Better look at whole industries that will benefit from the election of T or K.
back to the topic – not just about preferred way to daven, but about excluding people who follow accepted halachik opinions different from your own on how to dress. Should we go back to machlokes between nusach ashkenaz and sfarad? Mishnaic examples list cases when we shush a shaliach tzibur – when he says something unacceptable, not just “different”.
you probably meant Mishnah Berurah 91:12, 91:5 is about belts. Aruch Hashulchan, I think, rules differently.
> You don’t have to listen to your wife when she’s telling you to be less observant, nor she you.
Hear, here: _THIS_ is the root (square or not) of the problem. Thinking that putting an expensive black hollow cylinder on your head makes you more observant. Sherlock can eat his hat (I wore it once). This is a simple difference between what is appropriate to (symbolically) wear in front of a King in our days. If you think a black cylinder signifies that you are valuing the moment, I can easily beat it with an ancient siddur, a $400 davening tie and a golden watch. In reality, the underlying feeling is that being strange and different from “them” makes one more “observant”. This is a very understandable feeling and has a place, but it is not a universal key to unlock all mysteries of the world.
Aside: R Salanter had such a watch. He once was travelling and did not had tefillin with him. He asked people in some shul to borrow one (two), but nobody wanted to give it to an unknown traveler. Rather that revealing himself, he simply got his golden watch out and asked someone for the time so that he can set his watch correctly.
US has a great feature – separate states. Start implementing any of these policies in one state, so you can test 50 policies at the same time. If they work, then surely others will pick it up. Stop risking the country by applying potentially dangerous and surely divisive policies.
Gadol> minimum IQ threshold for voting rights which would ensure that women have a structural majority irrespective of any explicit gender restrictions.
I am also for IQ or other knowledge-based testing – both for candidates and voters.
Average IQ is same for men and women, but (not fully confirmed, I think) men have more variability – there are more stupid and more very smart men.
This is a general trend in biology – male species have more variability.So, if you use an IQ cut off 70, exclude stupid people, there will be more men excluded, but if you use cut off 120 – keeping only smartest voters, then there will be more men, so, in practice, wives of smartest men will be in control.
chassidish-theorist> women didn’t participate in any of these inventions is because they were excluded from doing so
Most men in history were also excluded. Only relatively rich and free men participated in intellectual life. There were societies where women had access – Roman aristocratic women, for example. In last several centuries, women had access to resources in many European countries. Yes, Mrs. Curie had difficulties getting accepted in male-run university, but she could have opened her own women-only school (I think she actually was involved in teaching in such schools), same way men organized men-run universities.
> due to the fact that republicans are more avid betters than democrats.
not sure where this is coming from, but I did not study how large and predictive betting markets are. A more proven way would be to look at stock market. There are known industries that will benefit from one of the candidates (T – oil, K – solar, etc). So, looking at their stocks would show you the odds. It does not matter who trades these – there is a lot of money here and a lot of analysis goes into making those bets. I am guessing that election betters simply use stock market analysis to bet. There are some articles that look at that.
Caveat: stock market failed in Trump/Hillary election. Yes, Hillary had 70% chance, which is not that high, but lazy brokers relied on the idea that she’ll win and they did not even bother to analyze Trump’s effect on economy. What happened (my recollection): in the middle of the election night when adds switched to T, stock market futures went down – because everyone wanted to sell pro-H stocks. It took several hours to do analysis of which stocks are pro-T and then futures went up (for several years). Given that failure is still remembered, surely nobody will make same mistake this time around.
Neville,
1) tefillin are in halacha, hats are not.
2) men wrote seforim about what they want women to wear. I’ll wait for women to write seforim what they want men to wear. For now, I am following Torah shebalpe from my wife and she paskens I should daven without a hat.R Aha b’ Yaakov (I think) sent his son to learn for a year and stayed home working the farm. When the son came back, he tested the son and then went back himself, leaving the son to work. Do you think he asked the son whether he followed every word or how many hours he was holding the (non-existent) gemorah? That he could have found out via a shaliach in the first month. No, he was waiting the whole year to see what the son has actually learned.
So, you guys discuss minutiae – minutes, with text or listening, etc. I suggested ^ a middos test, but probably an open ended question “tell me something you learned” is a better one. Some will learn middos, some something else. If a person learned one tremendous idea from the whole maseches, then you can do a siyum. Even if he did by listening 8-min daf at 2x speed while exercising.
This is happening not just with vote but with other things too – men invented physics, electricity, steam engine, cars, wipers, built roads, and now when they are driving, women tell them they are doing it wrong.
> Should men have the right to vote.
The argument could be made that men deserved their vote by fighting for it over centuries, developing philosophies and constitutions … After men earned a right to vote, they decided to share this right with the women – maybe hoping that the latter will reward them in their family life. Men, as usual, never think that they might be wrong, so they did not include a clause allowing them to have a later vote by men only to return to the status quo ante.
Looks like Trump. Betting markets slowly but steadily went from 48% to 63% for T in the last several weeks. It seems that anything that could have been said about him was already said. Ds and their media switched from Nazis to Fascists (term preferred in Marxist circles) showing that they are scrambling for the remaining Commie vote on the far left.
CS > minyan factory is a mincha minyan held in the factory office
indeed, if you are reading it the Hebrew way – a subject followed by an adjective.
Sephardim serm to be inconsistent. They generally dress to match the host community. Thus turbans. Now they switched to black hats to match their new neighbors while those hats represent the opposite approach.
This was discussed before, but I think posters here misunderstand the OP – he is not talking about a particular mishna or a Rambam that others disagree with. I think he is talking about overall sense coming from Gemora about desirable lifestyle, it is multiple multiple examples and stories, not just narrow halachik decisions. Yes, over centuries there is a list of decisions allowing asking community for funds for various services – as a way to deal with the situation. Probably, someone justifies even taking non-Jewish welfare funds too, maybe not publicly. But currently so many ignore all those gemoras and don’t even try to minimize the undesired behaviors. Why, then, bother learning gemora at all if you are not interested in their approach to life, just read the aharonim. Not all, of course – only those who support your lifestyle.
Tzadikim who come to the factory would start with earlier minyan and then gradually go to the next one and next one, finishing several hours later
