Always_Ask_Questions

somejew > This is all the same for all types of heretical movements that we suffer from, such as Reform or Sha”tz or MO.

I think you have a point that an individual might really not subscribe to the movement theology and be judged on their own. this still does not answer yankel’s questions that RL and MO witnesses and rabbis are usually treated with neemanut that reform does not.

third version of the same story from the anti-zionist POV. Seems like everyone agrees on the words Chofetz Chaim said, but interprets them somewhat differently.

footnotes of Chofetz Chaim Al Hatorah, Parshas Bo:

In the winter of 5678 (1917-1918) when they told the Chofetz Chaim about the simcha that had spread in Jewish homes because of the Balfour Declaration, the Chofetz Chaim burst out crying and said, “What is the point of this simcha? Hakadosh Baruch Hu promised us, ‘And you shall spread out west and east and north and south’ – here is a sure promisory note, which Hakadosh Baruch Hu will pay up when the time comes. Now some people come and admit to a small part of Hakadosh Baruch Hu’s promisory note, and everyone is happy about this declaration, and they see it as a sort of redemption. They are satisfied with a little… they don’t wait for more… Oy, what has become of us…” and he continued crying.

The Chofetz Chaim’s son, Reb Leib, used to relate: “When the British government issued the well-known Balfour Declaration regarding Eretz Yisroel, the Chofetz Chaim saw it as an arousal from above regarding the redemption. At that time he quoted the comment of the Ohr Hachaim Hakadosh on the verse, ‘a tribe will arise from Israel’ (Bamidbar 24:17). But he said, I am afraid that the irreligious will ruin it, G-d forbid. He would said that many times there have already been times of favor, but those generations ruined it.”

here are some interestingquotes from a site that defends shevuos and starts with “Zionism was the most successful violation of the oaths in our history, but it wasn’t the first. I”

The Chofetz Chaim says that there is one kind of war that is permitted even during exile: a war against a decree of shmad, a decree made by a government that forces Jews to give up their Torah observance. The classic case of a war against a decree of shmad was the Maccabean revolt, he says. This war took place during the Temple era; nevertheless the Chofetz Chaim said that such a war would be permitted even today, when the oaths are in force, against an empire that outlaws the Torah, such as Communist Russia. (Recorded by Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman in his article “Omer Ani Maasai Lamelech” section 9.)

When the British government issued the well-known Balfour Declaration regarding Eretz Yisroel, the Chofetz Chaim saw it as an arousal from above regarding the redemption… But he said, I am afraid that the irreligious will ruin it, G-d forbid. He would said that many times there have already been times of favor, but those generations ruined it.” (Chofetz Chaim Al Hatorah p. 101) In any case the Chofetz Chaim never said that it was permitted to found a Jewish state. Similar, the Ohr Somayach was quoted as having written a letter in support of immigration under the Mandate, stating that immigration did not violate the oaths. He never said that conquest of the land would not violate them.

I think this is from same notes
One time, they read him an article from a newspaper, in which one of the ‘maskilim’ expressed his hope that in the end Eretz Yisrael would be an independant country like Bulgaria, which was established on the ruins of Turkey. The Chofetz Chaim burst out crying and said, “Does this matter make sense? We are suffering for one thousand eight hundred years, our blood flows like water, we increase our prayers and supplications for a respite from the difficulties of the exile, and here they satisfy themselves with only a small amount? They have completely forgotten about the roles our prophets set out for us, and the promises of our holy Torah.”
…
One time we heard how the Chofetz Chaim expressed his anguish about the leftists in Eretz Yisrael, “Could it be that something good will come out of the left, that the Divine Presence will rest on their actions?”
….
It is a grave mistake that these people make, to think that the Torah and mitzvos are secondary matters and are unconnected to the building of the land. Remember the words of the Torah (Vayikra 18:21), “That the land not vomit you out when you contaminate it, as it vomited out the nations before you.” Eretz Yisrael is the palace of the king, one who sins there sins a great sin, and the danger [that results from sin] is much greater there!

The son of the Chofetz Chaim, Harav R’ Leib zt’l, would tell over that when the British announced the Balfour declaration in regards to Eretz Yisrael, the Chofetz Chaim saw in this a type of אתערותא דלעילא (awakening from above) in regards to the redemption, and he spoke then of the Ohr Hachaim on the verse “וקם שבט בישראל” – “and a rod shall rise in Israel.” [There the Ohr Hachaim speaks about the two possibilities in regards to the redemption. It can come miraculously, if the Jewish people merit it, or it can come in a natural way, if they do not. This part of the passuk refers to the redemption coming in a natural way in the merit of the tzaddikim of the Jewish people, who are referred to as Yisrael.] He said, however, that he was worried that the ‘frei’ would destroy it [as a result of their bad deeds], heaven forbid. He would also say that were many times in the past that had been opportunities lost for the redemption as a result of the destructive deeds of the generation.

xCTL > I don’t care to daven next to a gun.

we just had the tragic event in UK … But where does it end then? I may be uncomfortable to daven near a lawyer who might have lied and defended reshayim; or near a mamdani supporter or near a businessman who might be cheating on taxes.

HaKatan > You aren’t being specific: Jews who specifically were looking to “integrate” into secular culture were rejected from doing so. Jews continuing to live as Jews as did their fathers and grandfathers and all the way back, however, were doing just fine. … his Plan A was conversion.

Yes, of course – Hertzl, like many non-religious Jews at the time – hoped to become equal citizens and Dreyfus affair showed him that this is not attainable through assimilation. What I am saying – for people like that, following Zionists to EY was a way better path than alternatives that existed at the time – conversion, communism, german nationalism. That was the main impact of Zionism on Jewish population. In no way I am supporting all the other narushkeit.

haimy > every time you go shopping online, there will be photos of inappropriately dressed women displayed.

1. there are adblocks for browsers that filter out ads
2. ads are usually tuned to your history of browsing, search, and clicks on ads. It is unfair in a sense that if you did it once or some time ago, the ads will be pursuing you for some time until it becomes clear you are not buying it. Aveira goreret aveirah.

HaKatan, please could you give me some quotes from Chofetz Chaim. I looked them up and could not find any so far.

HaKatan, right, Herzl was a thoroughly assimilated Jew who realized, to his shock, that Jews are hated and started looking for ways out. Many people like him chose conversion, others chose to fight their governments in a hope that revolutions will bring equality among other benefits. All of those people are not part of Jewish nation anymore. Those who among all -isms chose zionisms (thanks, in part, to Herzl) have their grandchildren Jewish and maybe even observant.

Haimy> Because you can always change your Google settings

right, google family link allows someone else control the settings. I think windows also have that feature and there are other products like that.

but you should start with physical controls – use internet on a computer and not phone and have either a desktop or attach a laptop in a dining room with the screen towards other people.

yankel> if he did not go to the midbar , MUST BE that his generation were not a generation consumed by sin ,

this is what rambam actually says

וְאִם הָיוּ כָּל הַמְּדִינוֹת שֶׁהוּא יוֹדְעָם וְשׁוֹמֵעַ שְׁמוּעָתָן נוֹהֲגִים בְּדֶרֶךְ לֹא טוֹבָה, כְּמוֹ זְמַנֵּנוּ
~~~~~~

Haimy > Having a filter lowers your nisoyon to be over the lav of lo sasuru.

absolutely. First, start by changing filter options in your google search: https://www.google.com/safesearch. There is also google family link that allows to lock safesearch for your children.

There is also openDNS that allows blacklisting and whitelisting sites on the network, that can be separate for differnt computers.
So, if you have limited number of sites you need, you can just whitelist those.

> Chabad is unlike other Chasiduses.

If a not-very-observant person in US comes to almost any non-Chabad shul, be it chassidish, yeshivish, MO, he’ll very likely be ignored or looked at suspiciously. Not so @ Chabad.

Very visual picture for me: I was staying for several months at a small midwestern town in the 90s. The shul consisted of old locals and similarly old Russians who lived in a nearby subsidized housing. The latter were sitting by themselves in a corner not really understanding the davening. Once a gabbai was out of town, and a loal chabadnik was substituting. He called all Russians for leining, spending several minutes reading brochos with each of them. All locals were totally confused why their usual order was not honored.

yankel> no rav no dayan , no bet hora’a anywhere on the globe ever considered a get with fully frum RZ witnesses as pasul

it is astounding that people do not see the difference between a disagreement within halachik Judaism and other religions. It seems that appeals to emotion using such disparaging language leads to that. Again, I am very curious to hear whether Chofetz Chaim used similar language. I could not find examples so far – can anyone help me?

xCTL > I‘Ll defend you in court on that charge that violated the First Amendment

thanks for the offer. I do appreciate that right to speak my mind in case you didnt notice yet.

Dovid, I am not sure what you mean – do you mean that it is wrong that they are not criticizing the students? Why should they as long as they are able to teach?

Insisting on having a hired security guard is somewhat elitist. Not every shtibel or kollel can afford that. Given that threat level is, thankfully, low relying on trained members of the congregation seems reasonable.

There were stories in the news in other places of worship where congregants stopped the massacre. Are there negative examples – someone getting upset at the boring speaker? I see this as a real threat in some shuls.

katan > Believing that the Zionists provoked Hitler

I am not sure what the source of this historical fact, but if you think of East European Jewry, the prosecution already started with the russian revolution, with so many Jews either killed or prosecuted, Yiddishkeit destroyed, remaining Jews in total assimilation. Was it also provoked by zionists?

I think it is less on our minds because of the horrors of Shoah after that, same way as WW1 is rarely mentioned after WW2. Imagine Hitler not killing the Jews during WW2 and no Zionists at hand. Most of Eastern European Jews would end up under Stalin, their fate would be same as rest of Soviet Jews – arrests of all religious and intellectual leaders; full assimilation and mass intermarriage. From the point of view of Yiddishkeit, this would be almost same outcome.

yankel> impossible to verify what would have happened if not for the zionists …
you would need ruach hakodesh to be able to answer such a question accurately .

True. We can have bitahon that Hashem will help us when there is nothing we can do to save ourselves. But we can’t rely on miracles when making decisions. As we discussed at length, middle east in general was a bad place to be in the last 80 years.

For a contract – compare with nationalists at the end of 2nd BM. The zealots acted against the facts, they burned food to make people go into a fight. R Yohanan b Zakkai acted rationally – he asked Vespasian for the minimum to make sure Romans accept it. In our case, it seems, at least a posteriori, that zionists had a rational position and maybe got help min hashamayim also, and anti-zs did not have a rational way forward.

yankel on mitzrim – exactly, you can have hakarat hatov and still have other restrictions. You can have appreciation to what Zionists did without becoming a chosid of Ben Gurion.

But your underlying premise seems to be that zionists brought damage to yirat shamayim. I question that. I think most of early non-religious zionist followers were either non-religious already or on the way of becoming such. In other words, without zionists, most of those Jews would have been communists, culturalists, converts, bundists, etc. That was the reality of the times. And while zionist propaganda sounded awful to religious ears at the time, in political reality, they guided these multitudes to be savevd both physically and spiritually.

yankel, a fair question on who is a talmid chochom. Your definition are the right ones. There are mentions of T’Ch that describe his behaviors, which can be considered definitions. For example, if you see a T’Ch going somewhere inappropriate at night, you don’t have to tell him in the morning because he surely did teshuva. So, this means, T’Ch may do an aveirah, but he reviews his actions daily.

The problem with these definitions is that they require close observation and our own judgment. Sometimes, you can make the judgment from the stories. for example, about spare time and priorities, there is a story about R Soloveitchik getting into analysis of a Rambam during a Thursday afternoon class when he was usually flying from YU home to Boston. When someone reminded him that it is time for him to fly home, he said – nobody is leaving this room until we understand this Rambam …

So, correlation between different chachomim seems like a reasonable method to me. There is nothing new here. This is how haskamos work!
This method relies on halochos – how one T’Ch should relate to another. And it is observable – there are witnesses that saw meetings and talks, and books where Rabbis mention or give haskama.

My observations are
– OOT move to in town or suburbs, wanting to be near shuls and schools
– in town moves to greater lakewood/monsey to get a bigger & cheaper apartment and get away from gangsters
– lakewood moves oot to get jobs in jewish schools
– some lakewoodians get richer and moves to Toms River and then correct you when you mention that they are from lakewood

yankel > the fault lies exclusively with the illegal judicial overreach …if parliament and the politicians would call the shots, as should be
and again:
> was the elected parliament who voted for the tal law … and it was the unelected clique which canceled it …

I am trying to point out to you that this is how modern systems work (post-Athens) – not every element of the system is based on voting. There are various mechanism to limit direct vote because it is so unstable. Courts specifically are indirectly elected. To my uninformed eye, Israeli system seems too indirect – you have totally unelected organizations voting; and you have do not have a good constitutional system that can be used by judges to use. These flaws are good arguments for reform, but they are not good arguments to call current political situation “illegal”.

yankel > for the simple reason that not less of a personage than the rambam is the one who advocated for relocating to the desert….

this is exactly the point of the discussion. Rambam offers midbar as an option when other options are not working out. Stands to reason that this is not the ideal lifestyle for generations. I wonder whether any commentaries on rambam discuss that.

The pro-midbar position seem to be that the problem is still out there, so we need to stay sheltered. True, modernity created this new spiritually unsafe environment that does not go away. So, is the answer to stay in midbar until Moschiach comes or humanity rejects modernity and goes back to a manageable state? As Einstein predicted that WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones … This position seems to originated pre-Chazon Ish, when Alter Rebbe took a pro-Czar anti-Napoleon position contrary to most other leaders: danger of modernity v. old-style oppression. (He had a reason though – his hassidim were further east than most others, so the chances that they’ll stay under the Czar were higher). Did he expect that modernity will go away under Czar’s rule?

So, if we accept that it is not ideal to stay sheltered for hundreds of years, then the question is – when and what exit strategy. Hope I explained this better now.

> Anyone who came pre-48 generally did so without their emigration being facilitated by the Zionists.

it was not separate also. Growth of the community, increase in money and jobs, and security allowed more people to come even if they were not party members.