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YYA, I am not sure about your dig at “modern”. Are you talking about the YU club? First, YU as a whole is a thing in itself, not a halachik institution. And was. R Soloveitchik was negotiating a contract w/ YU in 1930s as a total outsider – while his father was the Rav there … and they had their disagreements. When he writes to defend an idea of YU medical school, he mentions that his argument is b’dieved and that he was not consulted l’hathila. Second, they were, and I believe, still fighting this, so it is clearly not something they, ahem, embrace.
YYA > those ‘old books’ as you call them … ‘world Hashem sent us to’ is a test how loyal we will be to doing Hashem’s Will,
I am obviously pushing this term too far, but the point is that Hashem sends us the world not simply to reject it all, but to deal with it. Everywhere in Tanach and Gemora, Jews deal with politics, economies, science, ideas of their time.
> and explained and applied by the Chachomim of each generation, (not the baalei batim from the peanut gallery
this is a lame excuse – let Chachomim deal with all issues, and we will just sit and learn!? Chofetz Chaim did not start Beis Yaakov despite writing a lot about social issues of the day, but a simple Polishe lady who happened to hear a Yakkish Rav while in exile in Vienna – did.
YYA > Lakewood in the 40s-50s was also nothing like how you describe it, both in its goals and its modus operandi. What happened to Lakewood decades later is a different subject.
Not sure where you are correcting me. Early on, Lakewood could not find post-HS students because they were going to college. R Kotler saw that this was pursuit of the material gains at the cost of Yiddishkeit and made a (successful) effort to reverse the trend and make it honorable to learn.
YYA > Mendelssohn (‘successfully’) attempted to create the PROBLEM, Rav Hirsch zt”l created one of the SOLUTIONS
I am aware how MM caused controversy at the time, but let’s look from the current POV: do we think that MM caused or accelerated assimilation in Germany? It was happening without him alright. And even in Lita 100 years later, communities were not well prepared to deal with free societies, even as they had so many Talmidei Chachamim … So, all anger at MM from the others might have been mis-directed. To reverse your statement, MM attempted (unsuccessfully) to come up with solutions. He was there early on. R Hirsh and others built on him. Others who were blaming MM often did not propose their own answers, they just hoped that the problem will go away. So, Western European chachamim have some excuse in that they lived through unprecedented times. But Lita/Eastern Europe had 50-100 years before it hit them – and they also did not have much success also. Arguably, the real solutions are post-WW2 in US and Israel, both in charedi and in “modern” approaches, focused on better mass education, building community institutions, etc. It took 200 years to come up with some, still imperfect, solutions. MM was there early on and did his best. R Hirsh appreciated it and so should we.
YYA> What on Earth are you talking about putting Rav Hirsch zt”l in the same sentence as Mendelssohn
R Hirsh disagrees with you in 19 letters: (18:8)
When the external yoke began to grow lighter, and the spirit felt itself freer, then arose a brilliant, respect-inspiring personality, Mendelssohn, which by its commanding influence has led the later development up to this day. This commanding individual, who had not drawn his mental development from Judaism, who was great chiefly in philosophical disciplines, in metaphysics, and aesthetics, who treated the Bible only philologically and aesthetically, and did not build up Judaism as a science from itself, but merely defended it against political stupidity and pietistic Christian audacity, and who was personally an observant Jew, accomplished this much, that he showed the world and his brethren that it was possible to be a strictly religious Jew and yet to shine distinguished as the German Plato.5781, do not worry, we can see that those Yinglish classes did not affect your neshoma at all.
somejew, Rambam also says that mitzvos apply only in EY. But at least you are consistent – refusing to participate if you see a risk for yourself, whether Tzahal or Hashem are asking.
reb mutche> we truly believe that by sitting and learning we are helping as much and even more … there is no way that a frum yid can join the army if he will not return from the army on the same level of ehrlichkait.
Can we examine this position? It seems to be coming from a very self-centered point of view: there is a country that does it’s own thing and then there is “us” who decide on what condition we will participate. Maybe let’s look at this as everyone is a citizen of an (imperfect, but democratic) country:
1) are you fulfilling your responsibility by choosing to ignore what the country needs? is this a yassachar/zevulun partnership when yassachar grabs money from zevulun rather than signs a contract? do you also exclude people fro your community who are not learning themselves or who are not learning
2) seems that you genuinely feel that you have responsibility but the risk is too high. This is important to show – as many of your opponents feel that the risks are just excuses and, thus, no meaningful dialog is possible. So, maybe you need to be proactive and actively go in the directions that minimize the risk: select jobs that are less risky – engineers, cyber, drivers … select people who can survive the risk (Steipler survived Russian army, there should be some people who are able to spend several months near non-religious mena and women)… provide training and support to these people who can guide and monitor the soldiers.
>> Coffee Addict, those classifications of the four levels of material are not in the Torah
> What do you define as the “Torah”?It is chochma. These 4 classes seem to originate with Aristotle – and he did not drink coffee,
YYA > but in hindsight there is no question who was right. … תן לי יבנה וחכמיה is the precedent for Jewish survival, not political maneuvering…
A good analogy. Again, I do have mixed feelnigs about charedi community – indeed, great growth numbers but at the expense of changing the character of what passes as Torah: aggressive self-righteousness, lack of ahava towards other Jews, having no shame in living at someone else’s expense (and in Israel – lives), “bite as a horse” attitudes towards anyone who learned chochma. Rough generalizations, of course, but Emes is too high a price to pay for Survival. And this is nothing new in history, there were all kind of Jews at all times, but I think talmidei chachamim of previous generations policed their members better than now,
YYA > The early leaders of the State granted many concessions to the Chareidim in order to keep them quiet… They were sure that within a decade or two they would complete their work of shmad with both the new immigrants from Sephardic countries, and even the children of the Chareidim themselves.
Again, you are shifting a little. I would rather say that they presumed that Old Yeshuv is a nostalgic little community that will not grow … And Sepahrdim came later. Here, indeed, leftwingers poresumed that they need to re-educate them, but Menachem Begin did not and got their support.
YYA > but the Zionists controlled the limited supply of ‘certificates’ issued by the British…
there was another issue here, according to research I saw some time ago: initially, donations were coming thru major gvirim, but then in 1920-30s Sochnut centralized donations and directed them towards kibbutzim and acquiring land rather than manufacturing in Tel Aviv area – for ideological reasons. In hind side, land was important factor, of course, but the price was that manufacturing had potential of generating wealth, giving jobs to new arrivials, while kibbutzim were money pits. So, for example, German Jews were not interested in coming to a place with no job prospects until it was too late.
YYA > The ones who listened and (many of them) died על קידוש השם, or the ones who didn’t listen, and lived (many of them were also killed) as מחללי שבת and בעלי עברה? … Many Chareidim attempted to go to Eretz Yisroel,
First, apples & oranges. We are trying to compare religious Jews who stayed and those who went. Not those who were not religious. And you are sugar-coating here: many of those who later called themselves charedim were actively advising their followers to stay in Europe using logic that you use above – that going to America or EY would lead to shmad. I am not saying that there is no truth in this argument, but I think if the discussion was: would you like to go there or die here – the followers would not listen, and probably most rabbis would not advise so. I heard someone asking R Zelig Epstein – how did Mir Yeshiva left Vilna in 1940(!) despite R Grozdenski’s daas Torah? He quipped: it was not a problem, it was before daas Torah.
YY > I did not claim that Mizrachi ITSELF made their children non-religious. It facilitated contact between virulently anti-religious people on one hand, who the secular Zionists undeniably were, and people who were basically ehrlicher Yidden who they could never reach on their own.
Eastern European Jews lived separately from Reform Jews in mid 19th century, and some rabonim blamed Mendelssohn for translating chumash into High German, enabling Jews to read German in general. But in the early 20th century, various -isms were all over Eastern Europe. There were no Meah Shearim, everybody could read newspapers. They were in Yiddish and in Hebrew and in Polish and in Russian. I think you are projecting current charedi community into 1920s and think Mizrahi went there.
The modern movements were very attractive: “we can build a new life!” If you and I were there, we would probably join also. So, under these conditions, Zionism in general was a good thing comparing to the alternatives – taking people with socialist (left wing) or nationalist (right wing) ideas into building up Jewish nation instead of Russian/Polish/German or world communism. And, of course, religious Zionism let people combine these new passions with traditional Judaism. I would say even if/where they went too far (from our view a century later),
R Kotler says somewhere that he had to spend so much time away from home, travelling to fundraise. So, he asked himself – why did he deserve that (even as he was able to fulfil his approach of having many students by this). And his answer is that – maybe he was inconsiderate and answered in a rude way to a student at some point and that was the punishment. I first read this as a siman of humbleness, but maybe it was an example of honest self-assessment that we should all emulate. There are apparently stories of Rav’s temper and effect of it. One story is that when there was a confrontation between Kletzk yeshiva students and non-R Zionists on shabbos – where yeshiva students “learnt” loudly to prevent the speaker (in the shul that let the yeshiva be there) and some local gvir started tearing seforim and Rav (who was there too!) told him that he’ll be torn apart himself – and the gvir fell into a machine and lost his legs same afternoon. Then, a story of him cursing a Lakewood yeshiva’s neighbor for complaining about noise and then finding out that it was student’s fault and then asking Hashem to take his curses back … With this background, we can see how R Kotler was passionate about his position, and how R Soloveitchik decided that it is better to stop it as he would not change his mind in such a discussion.
itsnotme, the goal of Sara Schnerer was not to educate girls to want to marry Bnei Torah, but to educate them to know Torah themselves. At her times, 1920s, Jews in Poland were working and poor, and when men went to learn or visit their Rebbe (she was Beltzer) on shabbos/yomtov, their wives and daughters were sitting at home doing nothing. Many ended up leaving traditional Jewish life or worse.
My theory is that nowadays the modern idea that it is ok for masses to be bnei Torah without earning a living is part of the crisis. For this ideal, all girls need is to desire to marry a T’Ch, as you are saying – which is achieved by educators by telling girls stories about wife of R Akiva and avoiding telling them that many followed R Shimon b Yochai and failed and many followed work/learn of chachamim and succeeded. BUT for boys to become a T’Ch is obviously a much harder task that requires years of effort, not just inspiration. No wonder that there are lots of girls who inspire to marrky a T’Ch but not enough T’Ch.
yeshivaman > A few of the historical claims and perspectives that have been shared by some of our fellow commenters are quite unfounded,
it looks like you are actively tying to avoid lashon hara and not name anyone – but you are making it worse! Now everyone here is under suspicious. Maybe you should just state what you think is wrong and why.
Chaim, you raise an interesting question – as indeed the story is told that he appealed to R Soloveitchik historical responsibility referring to Brisker Rav and R Meltzer, but then how would R Kotler respond to his own views on Medinah and R kook being different from R Meltzer? Too bad you were not there during this historic meeting, it would be a good question to ask 🙂
HaKatan > Rav Aharon said imagine that in this room were not you, but your grandfather Rav Chaim Brisker and not me but my father-in-law Rav Isser Zalman, etc. What would your grandfather say. Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik would have none of that and wished him a good day and left.
right, and this story demonstrates that Boston Rav and Kletzer Rosh Yeshiva valued each other and were interested in the other one joining in the opinion. In the case of Chinuch Atzmai, they agreed and in the case of drafting girls they disagreed. It happens. Again, I suggest to you reading some of the regular writings of R Soloveitchik – I see that you read some stories and even his famous polemic essays, but read more of his Torah to see where he is coming from and see if it is that easy to reject his positions the way you do now.
Menachem > This is a happy ending, but any wise person, איזהו חכם הרואה את הנולד, saw it coming from the outset.
I am not sure this is “ending”, but the problem comes with accepting federal funds, as we see now with other colleges. Let’s not demand purity and perfection here: YU is a leader at combining reasonably high quality general education in safe Jewish environment with serious learning. The only reason clubs are relevant is that parents/students demand such activities. If they minimize/separate clubs from the school itself, I don’t think a lot of kids will be bothered by this small group. This is like a story about an Israeli woman who first bothered an Ashkenazi Rav in a bus, who had to move away, and next day – a Sephardi Rav who did not respond to the provocation and explained why he did not defend his honor: “Hu Rav, ani Haham”. So the less will be said about this story, the better. Of course, some will use it to discredit a competing derech, but this is their problem, not YU’s.
YY > Those who listened to the Gedolim (both Agudah-type and outright anti-Zionist) did better in Yiddishkeit in the long run than those who did not (i.e. Mizrachi),
putting aside that you don’t consider others gedolim and historical errors of preventing Yidden leaving Eastern Europe for EY and US, this is indeed a fundamental question – which derech is better for Yiddishkeit. I don’t have an answer here. And I will talk more on US side that I know better but prob similar applies in Israel. On one hand, Aguda approach was able to isolate and save from assimilation a lot of Yidden and many had large families in several generations. Those who were more exposed to non-Jewish world have higher assimilation rates and smaller families. But notice that both EY and US leaders considered these measures as emergency (midbar, Chazon Ish, breaking ribs while doing CPR R Kotler) – and now these communities normalized this emergency method, leading to three generations of Yidden with broken ribs wandering about the desert – well beyond the forty years of Mitzrayim. Now, some people are self-correcting. Going to colleges (often online diploma mills or Landers). Notice people who used to say “we live near Lakewood” switching to “we live in Toms River”. But mostly, there is a large community that focuses on self-preservation rather than Emes of Torah – and redefines what “emes” is according to their limited understanding. I don’t think this is what Hashem expects from Jews.
I would worry more whether their halocha allows them to eat us.
> Stop looking for money
This is true only to extent. If you educate boys that money does not matter, only their learning, then Gemora Kiddushin 32 teaches you that this is the same as teaching them banditry. R Kotler introduced this approach when American Jewry was too excited abut new opportunities of earning money but things are different now, when whole communities are attempting to live at the level they are not prepared.
I read memoirs by a R Kotler’s student who mentions, inter alia, that Rav davened for him as he couldn’t find a shidduch for some years. Rav also fasted when he was expecting a call about his former student who was not very bright… the point of his fasting was that future mehutonim would NOT call him so that he does not have to say non-truths … The author does not notice the irony that Rav’s problems are caused by his own policies – inviting not-so-bright students to learn and neglect work prospects – and this combination was causing these shidduch problems.
Haleivi, thanks for clarification on Ranmab. Anyway, he says there:
All these and similar matters, however, man will not know how they will occur until they come to pass … A person should not involve himself with the homiletical statements or protract on the Midrashim speaking of these or similar matters, nor is one to consider them fundamental; for they do not lead to either fear or love [of G‑d]Yy, I hear what you are saying. Let’s make sure we are not combining two issues: 1) you claim that Mizrahi affected those jews that were not affected by the non religious movements. Prob true, but it is a crime in your eyes because you are viewing any cooperation with zionists as a crime. 2) that Mizrahi made their children non religious. This is a serious claim. Is it really true? It probably was true early on, but so was with other jews, in Palestine andin Europe. It was everywhere.
At the end, children of those who moved to EY did better than of those who stayed in Europe listening to r Wasserman and others.The way you present history after that is somewhat colored by your opinion. Who started, who joined later… bottom line, Mizrahi Cooperated more and had influence on what the state was doing. I agree that both groups tried their best in unprecedented circumstances and had both good and bad Decisions. Even r Yochanan Ben Zakkai was not sure whether his negotiations with Romans were done correctly.
another note: there was no popular expression “yeshiva world” in the “old world”
DJT did it again – not only he appointed 3 Justices, he now installed an American as a pope (after sending JDV to have a “last talk” with the previous one). Tired of winning yet?
Don’t ask for a too traditional pope – if he goes too far back in time, we will get blood libels again.
Maybe we should also appreciate similarity between two approaches. Both Lakewood and RIETS are a modern innovation – they are different from what was the norm in Eastern Europe from where they came. Old norm was: small yeshivos for mostly poor smart & dedicated students. The rest of the community knew basics but did not participate in advanced learning. It was not total ignorance, there was a lot of what to admire:
there is a WWI diary by a German officer who got a report of suspicious activity in occupied Warsaw: he observed Jewish balagulas gathering in some remote building for an horu every day. This looked like a preparation to a rebellion. Turns out they were coming for a quick halocha class… German officer was amazed, saying that surely Berlin drivers were more educated than Warsaw Jews, but he never saw them to gather to learn together in the middle of a work day. Still, those balagulas were not learning gemora and they were working most of the day.This system clearly failed when balagulas got access to newspapers and other sources of information – in 19th century the disaster was all over Western Europe and started in Eastern and by early 20th century Eastern Europe was also full disaster. So, both Lakewood and RIETS addressed this issue – in a different way as we all know. But the main focus was the same – how to change educational and rabbinical systems to make majority of Jews appreciate Judaism when other attractive alternatives are freely available. Lakewood focused on teaching as much Torah as possible to people who may not become Talmidei Chachamim – and keeping them away from other info. RIETS in 1940-50s focused on quickly raising a generation of Rabbis who could talk to American-born Jews (including children of recent arrivals). Add Chabad to this list, of course.
yankel > Its gdolei yisrael who don’t like it.
I think you mean to say that the rabbis you follow do not agree with the person in the article. Not that they “do nor like the article” that seemingly simply reported facts.
Teiku
We also need to look back at the start of the problem: how come so many Jews became anti-religious? In part, it was the influence of the times; amei haaretz who previously would be part of the Jewish community now had a choice to leave; and attractive influence of various isms.
But, we also need to admit that Jewish communities, and Talmidei Chachamim, did not initially have effective tools to upheld Judaism, it took some time to develop these tools – and by this time so many Yidden became members of various movements … One can say that adequate response was early developed by R Hirsh (and attempted before by Mendelssohn), R Salanter, Beis Yaakov movement, but really developed after WW2 both in Israel and US. During 1930s, Chofetz Chaim writes a lot about problems but offers almost no solutions, except “keep at least one cheder in each town so those who still want would be able to send kids there”. He even pleads with Polish President to rescind sanitation requirements on the mikvaot because Jewish communities were not able to abide by them…
So, two major approaches survived: (1) going to the desert to avoid any contact with anything “modern” and (2) developing approach that allows people to understand modernity in the Jewish context. After about 80 years, I would say approach (1) had definite successes “in the short term” by creating large community with large families of those previously committed, and (2) had definite success attracting more assimilated and educated people. At some point, we should get out of survival mode and ask the question – is Hashem looking for a nation that reads old books or a nation that reacts to the world that He sent us to.
A lot of feelings towards Zionism were based on the politics of the time. But was “Zionism” the real issue? Imagine, there is no WW2 and many Jews still live in Eastern Europe. Would “Zionism” be the biggest problem? No, it would be communists in Russia, all kind of secular movements all over Europe, German Reform, etc. So, just because the confrontations moved to EY and the only remaining secularists were Zionists does not change that the core problem was secular anti-religious movements in whatever form they happened. As you see now, Israeli left is not so Zionist any more, but it is still in confrontation with Judaism.
Duvidf > The fact that we have no system of appointing legitimate Rabbis to a Sanhedrin or some sort of supreme Rabbinical court is the main churban of our times.
This is not the only one. Current Batei Dinim have a very narrow area to operate – kashrus, marriages, yeshiva curriculum, days to say tahanun … maybe that is why they are spreading out into politics. R Soloveitchik writes about that – we first lost dinei nefashos at the end of 2nd commonwealth, then karbonos … he says that he remember his grandfather R Chaim dealing with business problems brought to him, we do not have a lot of those. So, maybe start asking dinei mamonos from your beis din and they’ll have less time to make pronouncements about WZO voting.
Avi > Why does Malchut Bet David require dismantling Israel c”v?
Good question. By Rambam, zman moschiach will be only different in that the non-Jews will not oppress Jews. Having a state with an Army is definitely a step in the right direction.
chiefsmerel > The word “Druze” does not appear on the UN website even once
This happened before. League of Nations had a charter to protect minorities in Central European countries between WW1 and WW2. Jews in Baltics, Poland, Czechoslovakia, etc often complained, together with German, Russian and other minorities providing pressure on those governments. In 1930s, Jewish organizations decided to complain about treatment of Jews in Germany – and were told that German Jews are not registered as a minority.
You need to define what do you mean by “Zionist”? Members of Hashomer Hatzair – probably not. Supporting Jewish settlement and later state – probably many. Also, note that sometimes fierce fighting happens between leaders trying to bring people to join their movement at the expense of the competing movement – does not mean that they always disagree. If you look at recent discussions here, you will see that, say, Netziv, Ohr Sameach were not at the same position as others.
As to general “yeshivos”, we might have a very idealistic view of what was happening there. for example, at some point Telshe yeshiva was emptied out because all students became socialists, so Slabodka sent new students there …
As to YU, I am not sure whether there was politics involved when R Moshe Soloveitchik (son of Chaim Brisker) was there in 1930s, but R Moshe was already involved in creating modern religious schools when in Poland in 1920s. His son, R YB Soloveitchik was of course a supporter of Mizrachi, with some reservations and had explicit goal to produce Rabbis who could work with Jewish communities that had Americanized and educated people. His observation from talking to college students in 1950s that they had a lot of questions that they were not able to get answered either from reform or from Rabbis who did not know anything modern. So, it is R Soloveitchik’s “fault” (as well as Lubavitchers) that there are observant Jews outside of Boro Park – without their efforts, everyone would be assimilated already and you will not encounter such posts on YWN.
YY > The Mizrachi got the secular Zionists ‘in the door’ of Eastern European Jewry in the late 19th and early 20th century,
This seems like a story … Jews had a “healthy” choice of secular movements – bundists, hebrew culturalists, socialists, communists that they were rapidly joining. Sure, there were religious Jews who supported Mizrachi – do you claim that they necessarily became non-religious after that? This is a strange claim. If they became mizrachi, they probably stayed. If you consider any association with zionism an aveira, then I understand what you are saying, but otherwise, I don’t think mizrachi made JEws non-religious. Possibly, it worked other way around – those excited about settling in EY had a religious option.
Even non-religious Zionists have some zechut – they were competing with the secular movements ^, and those who became Zionists rather than communists definitely had a higher chance of survival; did not have blood of ,illions on their hands; and probably have their grandchildren Jewish.> This is leaving aside the whole sorry story of the ‘Rabbanut’, which was dominated by Mizrachi from the start. …The so called ‘Status Quo Agreements’ you are probably referring to, were negotiated during the British Mandate, primarily by Agudah (which at the time included Neturei Karta lead by R’ Amram Blau… check it out, it’s true.) The Mizrachi mostly did damage,
I did not mean to skip Agudah activities in general, I was thinking about activities affecting all Jews in the State. As you are saying, Agudah was making arrangements mostly for themselves, while Mizrachi established Rabanut and affected everyone. Agudah early on joined Knesset, but did not participate in the government. Mizrachi was sometimes struggling about this issue also, but preferred participation.
> Today’s Zionists are mostly descendants of Mizrachi…
Indeed, that is why I think making today’s political decisions based on (sometimes bad) history between non-religious Zionists and Agudah is not useful.
The anti-religious left moved to other ideologies. So, we need simply to see what today’s positions are, not what was happening 100 years ago.yankel > person than the typical ponovezhers.
I believe ponovezh early on would take different types of students regardless of hashkofa. Things changed prob during 1960s
hakatan > Had the Zionists not invaded, the entire area would have remained peaceful, and Jews would have been able to continue to live in not only Palestine but also in Arab countries in even better conditions
thanks for addressing my argument. So, you are suggesting that all dictators in Middle East are due to Zionist influence? There would be no Sunni-Shia wars? No socialist countries? No Al Qaeda or ISIS? They all sprung up because of the Zionists? Yazidis and Christians and Kurds would also live happily with their Muslim majority? Are India-Pakistan wars also due to Zionists? Chinese communists killing millions also?
dak > his questionable statements:
Dak, your thinking is really backwards: you are saying that your positions are opposite to the one of the respected posek – on issues on which, I presume, you do not bare any specific expertise. Maybe instead you just make a note that you need to reconsider some of your views or at least admit that those views have solid halachik backing. Start with something simple, like looking up medical papers on efficacy of vaccines or reviewing YWN death notices in 2020-21 …
So, I am not the only one hiding out. See this reference:
R’ Y.D. Soloveitchik was only opposed to reciting hallel with a b’racha. I heard from a talmid of his that R’ Soloveitchik would face the wall and b’davka cover himself with a tallis so completely that nobody could figure out what he was doingold news: (Teshuvot Yabia Omer 6:O.C. 41
April 20, 2010
Chacham Maran Ovadia Yosef Shlita announced that one is permitted to recite Hallel on Independence Day without a bracha. The Rav adds it is preferable to push off the recitation of Hallel until completing the davening, since one should not insert tefillos into the prescribed text.The Rav explains that gedolim have voiced various opinions regarding the recitation of Hallel, since Chazal did not insert it into the tefilla for this day we are not accustomed to do so but one cannot discard the miracles resulting in the establishment of the country and the ability of Jews to return to their Homeland.
If YWN lets the link
https://www.yutorah.org/ lectures/744024/Saying-Hallel-on-Yom-Haatzmaut
Speaker: Rabbi Ahron Soloveichik
Date: April 14 1986I was davening in a charedi shul, so I put my head on my hand, pretending I am saying tachanun while secretly learning gemora.
In a modern shul, I say tehilim pretending I am saying hallel.> those Jews are by definition heretics (even if tinok sh’nishbu).
you need to read up on yor chofetz chaim and rambam. Join daf yomi as this discussion is coming up in Shevuos 5 … tinok sh’nishbu is NOT heretic and is NOT to be obligated to be hated. You should like Yoav run to your cheder teacher and slain him in case he taught you wrong.
In case of the soldiers mentioned here – recruited into Russian army – were often the poor and orphans – often using questionable methods protecting “more observant” Jews (guilty of violating mitzvos related to orphans and poor), and thus having less chances of being observant. More “regular” Jews were recruited into the democratic Polish army, but still even if they were “regular” Jews (that is observant when in the community), their observance decreased when in the goyishe army… Steipler, for example, was conscripted into the Russian army and was mesiros nefesh for keeping mitzvos but not everyone was.
There is a sheila of such soldiers addressed to Chofetz Chaim (yes, they asked shailos) about eating non-kosher meat. His response was – you are allowed to eat the meat but not such the bones (i.e. not to enjoy it).
Another story I heard is from R Berel Wein – during his father’s class a goyishe/uneducated dressed person came into beis midrash. Rav’s father interrupted the class and got up to shake the man’s hand. He later eplained to the surprised Berel that this was a kantonist who went thru 25 years of Russian army, is very much an ignoramus and not a baal middos, but he came back to the Jewish community and deserves a lot of respect.
hitler killed himself on that date because it was may 1 – international labor day celebrated by all commies and socialists. american commies were for many years shy of celebrating this day the way soviets and europeans did and also prefers to do things on weekend, so US has “walks for hunger” “first sunday of may”, or in other words – first sunday after May 1st. Recently, R’L, there are actual May 1st events.
YY> his is in stark contrast to the real Jews who had cordial relationships with the locals long before the Zionists invaded the holy land around the turn-of-the-century.
I am not sure about WZO, but I think Mizrachi early position on cooperating with – mostly anti-religious at the time Zionists – paid off by having Israeli law incorporate some respect for tradition. If early non-religious leaders were on their own, Israel would have sunday for a day off. Eventually, R Schach and others accepted the reality and gradually joined Israeli politics.
> stark contrast to the real Jews who had cordial relationships with the locals long before the Zionists invaded the holy land around the turn-of-the-century.
Look at last 100 years of Middle Eastern history. Do you see how Arabs are treating each other? They kill each based on religion, sect, tribe, political party, drinking habits … If no zionists came to EY, Jews of old yishuv – and Jews in sepahardi countries – would have ended up under Nasser, Yasser, Saddam, Aytollah and ISIS. And those Ashkenazi Charedim (majority) who came after the zionists would have ended up being killed by Nazis and Commies or assimilated in goldene medinah. And even those most evil Israeli commies ended up playinh soccer on Shabbos rather than being commie leaders in USSR, still an improvement for themselves and the world.
I am torn between Mizrachi and EH. Mizrachi is an established religious organization in best position to influence politics and developed overall view on all Yidden in EY, and lead by a talmid chacham, R Schachter. EH is started by courageous people who dare to join am yisroel despite opposition of people from their own group – so I’d like to encourage them, but at the end they may not be there to care for everyone but just to get funds for their own mosdos, although maybe getting more influence in those mosdos as a result… I have 2 hours to think about it …
With so many ashkenazi parties – It would be easier to be a sephardi – there is “raq shas”
I wonder whether we will ever have “World Torah Elections” – maybe proportional representation: 20% of votes reserved for those who know all mashechtot, 20% of those who learned at least one, 20% for those who know Mishna, 20% for those who know Chumash, 20% for the rest kehilas Yaakov
Last century fights between ideological organizations are currently irrelevant. Medinah is a democracy, so when majority of jews would will something, it will propagate to the government. So, hopefully more and more Jews will vote for Ehrlicher Torah true representatives, and both anti torah and haters like the op will be irrelevant.