Always_Ask_Questions

We read in another thread that charedim do not need no state and no taxes, and in another thread that charedim do not need no education because they are successful businessmen. So, just call your baalei tzedoka and start these worthy infrastructure projects.

We should of course care about the state of the olam haze that Hashem created for us. There are a lot of non-controversial things that we do: do not things away, fruit trees, city layout, not damaging property.

The problem start with philosophies that make hard-to-prove claims that require, somehow, for money to flow from us to them. So, it then becomes entirely possible to pursue these goals at the expense of simple things we are required to do. Say, decrease population or at least have less kids to save the planet; close down nuclear and coal powerplants to increase dependency on Arabs and Russians.

Bottom line, we are for environment – goodm healthy Jewish environment.

Avira,
who do I believe – you or my lying eyes? I saw a number of mainstream yeshivish and chasidic (non-chabad) Rabonim sitting at the same table with the Rav, teaching with and under him, showing full respect. Why do you feel a need to insult other people’s teachers, I am not sure.

Most magidim shiur that I know are excited when a student asks a question. And so am I when the kids do. You got me with the 30 (well, 90) minutes. It is the first time I got involved into Daf Yomi, as my previous maggid shiur used unprintable jokes about this approach, his question was – what page are we on this month?

Everyone here seems to think that they can convince the other based on his own wishful thinking.

We have counties and zip codes that are majority charedi and some maybe even many-MO, why not compare their incomes, family sizes, welfare rolls, school enrollment, etc. Yes, census may not capture all sources of income, but still it would be a good start.

PS It is bizarre how values changed over time.

Avira > Rav hirsch was extremely controversial in his setting up a school with secular studies. The ENTIRE European jewish world had chadarim that were torah only. They would learn a trade from their father or someone else.

at that time, less than 1% of everyone in the world was studying science. R Hirsh was ahead.

During Satmar Rov times – 10% of men went to college.
That is why, for example, R Moshe reasonably says that one can live comfortable life without it.
There were also lots of options to not be a slave at a factory and be an independent businessmen.

In our times > 50% of people go to college. that is not the same “college” as before – IQ of 50% is still not the same as of 1% 100 years ago. Current college student is not able to read Madison – and is not interested.
Small business opportunities are very limited. Your store will compete with walmart and amazon.

Current college teaches you currently required skills – nurse, computer programmer – that are equivalent of being a butcher 100 years ago (and some programmers are very good at butchering code). It takes maybe more years to learn to code than to learn to butcher, but productivity is also hire, and thus the pay and comfort of the job. THat’s all to that, it is not about learning heresy or mixing with co-eds.

You can as well say that Rabban Gamliel was against travelling at 60 mph, it was too dangerous to the horses.

Shimon, Israel seemingly like US spends 5% of GDP on defense. Government budget (collected thru taxes) is at most 50% of GDP, so 10% of budget is for defense. This does not include other defense-like costs – police, FBI, maybe protection of cities near the border in Israel, etc.

In addition to defense, there are many other “pareve” things government spends on – roads & bridges, pensions and help to poor, at least basics. I think if you are fundamentally opposed to a country, you should find a way to get out of that country and live somewhere where you feel comfortable paying taxes. This is exactly what Rambam suggests, and if not “go to the desert” as Hazon Ish suggested … I can see, for example, if you are a citizen of Iran, North Korea, or Russia – a part of your taxes will be spent on murdering people, and even 10% might make one uncomfortable. So, it is OK to feel this way towards Israeli government, and it is entirely possible nowadays to move to another country nearby or further away.

This is like you come to a restaurant – and they you don’t like the food or even the kashrus. It is OK to go to another place, but not OK to eat first and then say you are not paying because it was burnt and treif.

> Where do chazal say that one must or even should know secular studies?

indeed, I perused a bilingual sefer of letters by Chofetz Chaim and he writes in 1920s – on the English side – that one should absolutely avoid sending kids to secular teachers and public schools…

Just as I started packing all the chemistry books in the garbage, I had some seichel to look at the original Hebrew (I don’t think this was translated from Yiddish). So, the Hebrew tzad tells me that I should not send my kids to anti-religious (Zionist? Hofshi) teachers and avoid heretical schools (obviously, there were no Jewish “public” school in 1920 Poland).

Now, I am very confused – which tzad of Chofetz Chaim should I believe?! Should I take the books out of the garbage or leave it there? So, as in the famous Gemora, the books are standing sideways into the garbage – they are not falling out of respect to Chofetz Chaim and do not stand straight out of respect of Chafetz Chaim.

And I would love to meet and look into the eyes of a person who spend so much time translating heilike seforim of Chofetz Chaim about purity of lashon and then creating these garbage problems. I hope I’ll see a soul, maybe a confused soul, but a soul nevertheless.

lakewhut > The MO aren’t balancing education and Torah as R Hirsch and Soloveitchik had in mind.

Possibly, I am not so familiar with various streams in MO. But, as YS suggests, rather than bashing each other, maybe we should ask ourselves – how do we balance these right.

CTlawyer, those of us who live in large cities get more criminal cases than civil, unfortunately.

And I did get dismissed usually from civil cases as they are long, and I always have something lined up – yom tov, work trip, vacation. I even suggested to the judge that it is only a minor inconvenience – tickets are non-refundable, but the wife and kids are fully capable of travelling on their own. Did not tell that the tickets were on Spirit and was looking for ward to a quiet fortnight vacation in a jury box, but the judge promptly sent me back to the pool, unfortunately.

Lil froggie, it is great that you represented Jewish people proudly, but a yid with a degree would also have a place there and maybe able relate the Gemora he was learning (probably on his phone) to the points of law, maybe opening some new vistas to those lawyers, etc. For example, discuss the difference between Roman caveat emptor and Jewish personal responsibility to not harm others.

it is also extremely easy to get valuable items from stores for free. I choose not to disclose the methods here, connect with me direct. 6 days a week, not on shabbos koidesh.

I once was “excused” by a career criminal himself. State and his lawyer questioned me and were satisfied with my answers, I left towards the jury box, but then was called back. The criminal himself looked at me and then advised his lawyer to dismiss me. Don’t know whether he did not trust Jews in general or disagreed with my CR posts.

Also, if someone is rich, then Hashem obviously thinks he is worth such a hard challenge, so even if he is not fully up to it, he deserves some respect and owe, especially from people whom Hashem does not want to trust with more than $100 at a time. You surely have no idea what their taavos are and how you will behave there. And if he is a self-made person, then he was in your place …

For example, many rich people have hard time finding friends and partners, as everyone is there “for the money”. Some of my “filthy rich” friends really enjoy a conversation with a friend from the time they were poor. I feel the same with hoshuve people from the Jewish community – there is a difference between those with whom I was learning when I had nothing, and those who are inviting a person from whom they can potentially benefit. I can’t even imagine how sad is the life of people who were born into rich families – do they even have real friends?!

dangerous drinking: indeed. If it were a case of clearly drunk driver and a dangerous event, I would probably be on a stricter side. In this case, the evidence was that he was stopped soon after leaving a bar (a bracelet on), stopped on an empty street, and then not able to walk a plank and recite alphabet backwards, I think. Not clear that he was a danger to anyone except himself and the utility pole. And maybe he did not even know English alphabet… sfek sfeika of 4th degree.

Again, I was surprised both by strictness of the jury in a generally liberal precinct and my own attitude. Maybe the prison system was in the back of my mind. The person will be risking his life and getting onto a path of crime, and abandoning his family … If he were to become an eved for 7 years, it would be an easier decision.

Yachar koach in assisting the country in fulfilling a Noahide mitzva of providing justice.

In my personal experience, I was surprised to be the most liberal member of the jury while judging a possible drunk driver on an empty street at night who possibly did not speak English… While for me, drunk driving is just a bad thing to do, many others had personal experiences with misbehavior and loss in their communities and wanted to be as strict as Beit Shammai ever was. One self-identified as a pedestrian and simply hated all drivers who did not stop in front of her.

My last argument in favor of rahmonus was – that the person might be in some immigration status where he would be deported based on this very minor crime, and who knows whether he is also supporting a family. Nobody cared.

say, Hashem designates two people to be parnasim of the community.

One of them earns $20 mln and gives $1 mln – skimping on tzedoka. Another person, with similar abilities, does not aspire for much in the physical world, maybe even spends reasonable time in learning, and pays full $10 out of his $100 dollars. I can just see poor people lining up to thanks that second person for his generosity!

It would be reasonable to say that first person has a hesaron of $1 mln, or 50%, while the second has hesaron of $1,999,900 or 99.99%

So, in olden times, the bochur, whatever his age was, would be given a year to prepare – get a house, have a job or business. It was often continue himself in the profession his father was, possibly getting funds from relatives to start on his own, if it was a capital-intensive business. The ketubah would be guaranteed, originally, from the set aside funds and later form all his properties. So, in the earlier system, the guy should at least have 200 zuz saved.

Maybe the same should be the criterion: he should at least be applying himself towards a way to support the family. Say, be in a medical school, or taking computer programming courses. If he has nothing except vague plans, what is a collateral for the ketubah?

Avira, you need to step this annoying habit of disparaging people who are not in your derech. You are preventing me from using proper references to the ideas, as I don’t want to have their names dirtied (Chofetz Chaim suggests not to praise people because of that, but just quote …).
Often, if I presume an argument without a name, it goes well through. In this case, Rav simply wrote a book in an easy style, summarizing Gemora in hundred small pages, not an easy feat.

As to Rav’s sources, I know from personal experiences that his knowledge was vast, both in Jewish and non-Jewish sources. Besides asking him my own stupid questions on obscure topics, both in torah and otherwise, and getting sourced answers, I saw a professional historian confronting him about a detail in understanding of a modern philosopher after Rav mentioned him in passing, and Rav responded by a quote from his personal discussion with that philosopher and a reference to his own book where he discusses this particular issue. So, in this case, I can personally vouch for total emptiness of our criticism. This makes me discount your opinions where you might have more first or second-hand knowledge. So, I would suggest if you want to have your opinions respected, cut down on such knee-jerk reactions.

Avram, I agree on either-or, we obviously deal with the legal side, I was just stressing the other part that describes social norms, etza tova, important focus in life, etc.

I am in no way advocating doing this now, and as the tosfos helpfully referred to by am.yeshivish says – we change the norms according to social conditions. Similarly, during gemora times there were different recommended ages for boys in EY and Bavel depending on ability to travel to learn after the marriage

I am not equating abilities. I am saying that people who have intellectual capabilities should not use them just for non-Torah subjects, leading to undervaluing of Torah by them – and, if R Eliezer and you do not care about their own views – transmitting it to their sons.

Middos are transmittable, not just intellect, even strength – as R Yohanan sand to Resh Lakish.

As to tiflus, it seems to be something we can reasonably analyze: schools & seminaries that end up producing tiflus outlived their purpose (circling to the topic), the ones that do not – do not, and I would be presumptuous enough to think that Rambam will agree with the observations.

R Steinsaltz in his short book Essential Talmud (that, unfortunately, has almost as many references as Rambam’s Mishne Torah) brings several observations that girls were learned in families of Talmidei Chachamim, bringing examples, but also a notion that it is a good idea to marry a daughter of T’Ch because if something happens w/ the husband, she will be able to educate the children in Torah. Anyone knows what is his source?

a good case, thanks!

Avira, it is R Eliezer who mentions tiflus, not everyone agrees…

more importantly – how do we define capability? Definition of “gemora” is learning underlying reasons v. Mishna just halochos, not necessarily mastering tosfos. I am sure there are lots of ladies who are capable of learning and reasoning at that level at some topics. In my household, ladies are happy to discuss at that level agadot and issues that relate to interpersonal and practical application, with less interest in mahlokets Abaye and Rava.

Note that at Rambam times, women might have better emuna, etc, but they were way less educated both in Jewish and secular matters. So, if they are doing graduate work in secular subjects (legit, not gender studies), they need to understand Jewish subjects at the same level, otherwise, they’ll see it as tiflus.

YS, I see your position: there is a ridiculous price and then there is a price where you can consider trade-offs :). I am with you here.

This still leaves unanswered the question – what are they learning there that cannot be achieved by earlier learning and local learning and a family vacation in EY.

Also, to $40K – maybe they justify it by the full price of having their credits transferred to colleges?
I see these transfers working for several “Jewish colleges” but then one of the two:
1) you are getting FAFSA and lower tuition in college, so seminary still “stands out”
2) you are not getting FAFSA and then you might know of better options, such as higher-quality local colleges, and an idea of transferring credits to a lesser-quality high-price college is not appealing either.
So, not sure who the market is for this.

I take the criticism on extrapolating from girl’s age to what was a norm. Indeed, we have yevamos cases of groups of brothers and corresponding sisters, dying one after another that are hopefully not daily occurances.

Still, you can look at a variety of cases and get a feeling when a case is a stretch case or reasonably a norm – in the latter case, it is discussed in many situations, with practical details.

So, my feeling is that pre-12 y.o. marriage was not that typical, while possible, but 12-13 bogeres
was closer to the norm. See multitude of cases discussing 12-13 y.o. naara/bogeres engagement issues. Another example – when father sells his daughter into servitude (not that typical), she is expected to be married or go free at the bas mitzvah (as this wold be a typical moment).

Also, a notion that a man should not live/visit too long at his in-laws before of mother-in-law there. This hints that husband and bride’s mother are typically close to each other in age. Would not be such a big issue if hatan is 15 and MIL is 40 …