Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
yeshivaman, thanks! did the Dayan tell you how to vote (like R Shmuel does) or left it for you to decide? (or is it self-understood within the community that you need to vote for as certain party only)
Simcha, I asked on the newspage about an irony here: the fast is commemorating Jews fasting under direction of Esther before going to battle against the enemies. Where does tefila against the draft go in the service then? Right before thanking Hashem for letting our army win against Haman?
I got two answers (I presume the rest agreed): (1) current army has girls (2) Purim army was led by Mordechai (not really, the order was from Esther and Jews presumably organized locally, Mordechai was not the general).
So, based on these answers, I am suggesting that every bochur should make a written stipulation with the army that he should be drafted and one of the chiloni maidens should go to a sem instead. Then, at the end of the service, he gets the first dibs for shidduch. Let’s see if the army agrees.
And after enough bochrim join the army, some will become generals, the way other religious generals got there.
yankel > The navi [!] Shmuel was mistaken about Yishay’s sons
indeed, Shmuel was mistaken about his own sons … this episode actually bothers me. Anyone knows of a good explanation. Shmuel’s first nevuah is about telling Eli that Eli’s two sons are not proper and more bad news to tell Eli … That is how Shmuel becomes a leader – instead of them. Then, he raises two sons himself – and both are also not proper. Then, when frustrated Jews come and request a king (true, not wording their request properly) – Shmuel is all offended. But how is that Shmuel is not addressing his own failure – that is repeating Eli’s failure, so he was warned …
This time I clarified something from this discussion.
Think of a doctor that does not recommend you to exercise and have a healthy lifestyle and giving you preventive medicine but reassures you – don’t worry at this rate, you will need heart and lung transplant in 10 years, I’ll be there for you! same with the car mechanic who does not do oil changes.There are simple first steps that you should take by yourself: put your computer in a public room; share that computer account with others; learn useful things to do on that computer; do them together with your parents and siblings; share your room with siblings; establish a sleep routine, etc. This advice probably has some details that are worthy discussing. If you ignore basics and only talk about filters that will “protect” the kid who is allowed to sit in a dark room at night with his phone – either this person is selling something (so it can not be “free”) or he is not very smart and you need to find other role models.
As an example, one of my kids was reading silly rhymes online and even generated by AI. Nothing inappropriate. I suggested googling a poem by Robert Frost. He did. “It does not rhyme” he said. I suggested – read slower .. now, he is taken by the road less taken …
somejew > RJBS was the leader of the Tinukei Shenishba kehilla. Not familiar enough with Yiddishkeit to be fully frum, but sincere enough (presumably by chazukeh) to keep the Torah if their leaders would ever dare tell them the Truth.
I don’t think you picture well the American scene in 1930-50s. Majority of American Jews were assimilated or on the verge of it. NY and I think other states allowed for one or several hours of religious study at public schools and various tzaddikim were trying to recruit several Jewish students at their locations to teach those students. RJBS writes with accolate about such chabad shluchim in his area (under the previous L rebbe).
I still do not understand the “fully frum” idea. I’ve davened at YI at various parts of the country and did not see any halachik problems. Maybe you are confused by the fact that less-observant people come to [some] “modern” shuls. Is this bad? The shuls themselves are generally committed to halakha. There are indeed cases where amei chaaretz take over shuls. RJBS answers several queries from his former students whether they are allowed to take jobs at places with mixed seating and he replies that they can not.
lakewhut > He also wasn’t the only decision maker in YU.
Right, I think RJBS had direct influence on his students, but not always at the institution. He was not a founder. His initial discussions (while he father was with YU) were an agreement to allow associating his Boston yeshiva in 1930s-early 40s with YU and sharing fundraising funds with YU. This agreement was with YU as an institution, not like a son of a chassidishe rebbe ready to inherit.
> Not every town had a touro and yeshiva program.
Touro started in 1970s and while it has solid programs for people coming from yeshivos with limited general studies enabling a pathway to respectable jobs , YU is way higher academically. They both have a niche, not fully covered by the other.
somejew, I looked up this article, thanks, it seems to be written by a total outsider, zeroing on some inconsistencies in the reports.
Let’s look at a bigger picture: Ohr Sameach was a rav in a large city, Dvinsk that was full of political activities. I’ve read a couple of articles, it seems that Ohr Sameach was generally pro- yishuv eretz yisroel but wary of anti-religious groups involved, still having some sympathy. I’m putting below some quotes. Given where and how he lived, I don’t think his activities and letters would go unnoticed by contemporaries, he was not always outgoing with his positions, but he was not hidden in a desert. In particular, the letter ^ was published in 1922, there are his responses from right after Balfour in 1917-18. He was niftar in 1926, surely an actual forgery would be noticed during his lifetime. The quotes below are from a long article A Light Unto Our Nation: R. Meir Simhah of Dvinsk’s Approach to Nationhood and Zionism in Meshekh Hokhmah By: JONAH STEINMETZ – you would be better off reading the original than my random quotes to understand complexity of Ohr Sameach views.
From the day our holy Torah was given, prophecy has never ceased to command us to settle the land [of Israel]. There is no section in the Torah which bears no mention of the Land of Israel… From the day that Zion and Jerusalem were singled out, David in his praises [i.e., Psalms], Isaiah in his visions, Jeremiah in his rebukes, and Ezekiel in his parables never ceased to stress the commandment of settling the land… So too in the Grace after Meals, we pray for the land and Jerusalem… Indeed, in this century, rays of light have shone through the efforts of activists… but many rabbis have opposed it… However, providence has intervened, and at a conference… it was decreed that the Land of Israel will be [given] to the nation of Israel… [And so,] the command to settle the Land of Israel which is as weighty as all the Torah commandments [combined] has returned to its place. It is [therefore] incumbent upon each person to support, to the extent that he can, the fulfillment of this command. The words of the one who awaits seeing the salvation of Israel, Meir Simhah Kohen Ha-Tor, Vol. 3 (1922)
Eulogy from R. Hayyim Zev Harash
Everyone claimed him as their own. Agudath Israel says he was theirs, the Hasidim say he was theirs, and the “Zionists” say he was theirs. And this is the truth, because he would find positive aspects in every group. And so, he once said to me in conversation… that in every group and in every organization, there are found good aspects and evil aspects… [A] person who stands on the side, a neutral person, is able to truly know and understand the good aspects found even in the lowliest of the groups; and to find the evil aspect which exists even in the finest of the groupsYou asked me… to express my opinion regarding the new movement which came to be in our times… by the name of “Hovevei Zion” are they called..
[F]or one who looks at the history of the Jewish people in exile with open eyes sees that at some times crazy, imaginative people arise from among our nation… and place their trust [in the idea] that the redemption is close in coming. And being that their words are [destructive] and all their acts are [ensnaring], many from the nation of God left the religion and the nation and denied the hope of the future… Behold! How terrifying is the sight of the enthusiastic [people] who go out saying: “This is the way which leads to the ultimate redemption From R. Meir Simhah’s letter to Slucki.
I see also ref to
Meshekh Hokhmah, Bereishit 12:5; Devarim 11:31.
Meshekh Hokhmah, Bereishit 50:24. where he supports oaths
after Balfour, he supported yishuv, but does not join Zionist movement Iggerot R. Hayyim Ozer, vol. 1, pp. 311-12 (no. 289).
see also She’eilot u-Teshuvot Avnei Nezer, Yoreh Deah 454:56UJM & RJBS > true, there is a bit of Torah in the Diaspora; however the number of Torah students is proportionately very low, and it is impossible to forecast what will happen in future generations. . . whereas in that very non-observant Israel the future of Torah and traditional Judaism is far more secure.”
this is a very accurate description at the time and reflects the feelings of many. I heard from R Nosson Sherman that his father was encouraging elderly students to continue coming to class in the snow “because who knows if there will be a class after you”. This is also in the context of destruction of European Torah from which RJBS came from and pondering how we restore the glory of Torah.
And he was right that Israel is a great environment, and note that he says “impossible to forecast” about US. He is not totally pessimistic – and he is obviously doing something to change the course. In another speech, he says that Mizrachi is wrong when they only try to collect for EY and recruit people
to go to Israel: we need yeshivos in America more as people are disappearing here. Then he says – we already collected money for our school in Boston, I am not fundraising here, I am just surprised that Mizrachi did not run to help us.> also acceptance of not full adherence to the Taryag Mitzvos
I am not sure what this means. Maybe you can clarify. That not fully observant people attend MO shuls? Most MO Shuls have normative halakha, a Rav and a core group of fully observant people. YI movement has a charter. I talked to marginally observant people, incl Israelis, who said that they were welcome to a local YI but were not given membership. And they respected that.
Jewish communities always had all kind of individuals. Now, you’ll say Chabad is not observant because they invite people from the street. With millions of Jews who already disappeared or are on the verge, it is more appropriate to look down at a shul that makes no effort to invite someone non-observant.
UJM > But he thought (and states) that “separatist Orthodoxy” would disappear and only MO will survive. Like you pointed out above, “tourist attractions” he says Chareidim would end up. Clearly he was 100% mistaken. And it was that which he said justified “Modern Orthodoxy” – survival, nothing else.
many good thoughts to discuss here, thanks. I suggest to read on RJBS more than just the most quoted (and misquoted) major addresses to understand his line of thought. He clearly argues that his derech is emes, not just accomodation. The way I understand him: Hashem gives every generation the world in it’s current state and it is our challenge to address it. We learn gemorah on relationship between Jewish leaders and Rome – and supposed to apply this knowledge to modern politics. Same way as Tannaim were learning Chumash on Yaakov Esav when going to Rome. So RJBS is trying to address these issues – see his several speeches to Mizrachi gatherings. In these speeches, he is not claiming to be an expert in politics, just bringing his Torah knowledge to their discussions. As an example of his limitations – students demonstrating for Soviet Jews in the 70s asked him whether it is a good idea, and he said “no” (as did R Feinstein and R Teitz, and, I think not sure, L Rebbe – their answers was primarily out of fear that Soviets will retaliate against these students). They did it anyway. One of them asked RJBS later if he still objects, and he said – not objecting anymore. I first asked my contacts in Israeli government what is best policy “for Soviet Jews”. Israeli advised him to be quiet. He later realized that the answer was based on Israeli interests who hoped to negotiate with Russkis. His psak was to do whatever is best for shevuim themselves, disregarding side effects on others.
And he paints “separatist O” as people who do not want to engage with the world. My own understanding is that many “separatists” positions are not based on emes but are haraa shaa to save Jews from surrounding dangers. And many of these were successful in preserving and growing large communities. But the expense of creating sick hashkafos is evident right here and we now need to heal the ribs of all those saved by R Kotler’s CPR.
lakewhut > I think it’s not a far stretch to say if not for RJBS, most of what we call Modern Orthodox would not be religious at all today
Or become chabadnikim :).
> YU is designed to be an alternative to Jews who would go to a secular college.
not only that, but to train rabbis who can address communities of Jews who went to college.This development also shows the deficiency of previous generations of religious leaders who were not able to address Jewish masses who got access to general culture and education. They were not doomed for assimilation if there will be someone who could talk their language. This is a generalization, of course. There were, of course, R Hirsh, R Salanter, etc. It is very instructive to read letters from Chofetz Chaim in 1920-30 and from R Soloveitchik starting mid 1930s. Ch.Ch is vividly describing increasing devastation of Jewish observance and education in Poland but his proposed solutions are simply cries of desperation – please have at least one kosher school in your town, please do not send your daughters to (polish) gymnasiums (and send where?), please women who know how to read, read enclosed halochos niddah to your friends who can’t read (how about teaching them to read?). At the same time, RJBS develops ideas how to quickly train rabbis to address this ignorant population.
RJBS was probably followed his father who, I think, was already involved in modernization of Jewish schools in Poland.
Note that RJBS was not responsible for everything that was done at YU. He did not even start there – he first negotiated a partnership with YU when his father was the Rav there and RJBS had a yeshiva in Boston.
One example is his article about opening of YU Medical school. He said that many people asked him – why is YU going into this business when it was first formed on donations for a rabbinical college. He then says that he can justify it b’dieved – because he was not consulted about this l’hathila! His justification is that Jewish community suffer from non-religious doctors (it was that way in Lita) who are not sensitive to religious patients (it is easier for me to talk about these issues with non-Jewish doctors than with non-religious Jewish doctors). So, if some doctors will go to YU – they will not necessarily become observant, but at least they will have sensitivity to halakha and hopefully will be better for religious Jews.
rocky> Using language like ” risking your olam haBa”
This is a variation of Pascal’s wager: it is better to be religious than not because you may lose eternal reward in one case, and almost nothing in the other.
Of course, in this case you are probably not risking your olam haba if you make your decision after carefully studying arguments of both sides and end up following one of the decisions. But you are probably at risk, if you make your decision based on biased and hateful ideas.
Baruch, I am not able to address your points – they are so disjoint and picked at random disregarding the big picture.
Chaim –
> No “Big wars”?
yes, we agree that there was more aggression during O and B. O started the apology tour, nullifying American zechus all over the world. Yes, Russians pressed Ukraine. There was “arab spring” that O did not support well. There were American troops in middle east that Obama was limiting in their actions.
When B exited Afghanistan, immediate world reaction was that this is a message to all dictators that US is not able to respond to anything. I do agree that there is no definite proof that T was not somewhat “lucky”, but he deserves credit anyway. Recall that his recognition of Yerushalaim, Golan, killing of Suleimani were all considered crazy actions that will immediately lead to war. Bubkes.> Trump spent like a druken sailor
again, easy compare w/ Biden and Obama. T responded to Covid with a quick action both fiscal and medical. I recall US performed relatively well economically during covid, look up stats if you are curious. B continued same and more spending without any good reason. Even after B spending, inflation now is high enough to cause political turmoil but is not huge. Without B’s meaningless spending, it would have been less. To sum it up: there was an actual problem, T addressed it, you think you could have done better – duh.> tariffs
I understand purist argument. Adam Smith. Still, we live in a complex world. Should we have free trade with our enemies? Communist Lenin said “capitalists will sell us the rope on which we will hang them”. Now, it is in reverse – we are buying that rope from China. Is building factories in China while they are stealing IP from the factory makes sense? So, there are clear limits to free trade. What about resolving disagreements with friends using tariffs? I would, again, wait for results.I skip the political topics.
> Its inefficient because its lacking technology
gov lives happy life. As long as you follow the rules, you have nothing to worry about. You can have a meeting with 20 people slowly discussing some un-urgent issue for a couple of hours. They make decisions based on what is of interest to their department as if it is “theirs”. And this is not counting those who make decisions based on their political views or help their friends. It is very hard for Musk to over-reach here.> When i apply for medicaid
right, AI should be able to quickly match medicaid applicants resumes to available jobs and conduct the interview. Last time I used such benefits 30+ years ago, all it required is to show letters I mailed to employers. I would not be surprised that current requirements are fewer than that.why is alter rebbe’s son – mittele rebbe – mittele? was the next one considered the last one at some moment?
somejew, I see references that Ohr Sameach signed multiple appeals for Keren Hayesod. Presumably, they appeared in newspapers that supported the same. How is that suspicious? What is the proof that those quotes were fake.
All he needs is a hammer and 4 nails to attach the laptop. No monthly fees.
Ari > “a terrible shedding of observant Jewry in the United States” – What does this mean?
It means that those who came to US in the first half of 20th century had minimal rabbinic guidance and were assimilating. RJBS (and his father) were one of the earlies yeshivish gedolim who came to US before WW2. One of the famous earlier rabbis was walking around NY boardwalks protesting hillul shabbat and everything else. This was not attracting followers. RJBS calls these people “checking each others’ tzitzis”.
Agree with Daas. RJBS indeed cared about all Jews in US and otherwise. He planned YU Rabanut curriculum in order to mass produce rabbis who would be able to serve multitudes of small communities in US. Still, this description (as others at other threads) seem to simply quote some sources that argue with RJBS without trying to understand him.
1) He does not call this “kiruv”. He calls these people “American Jews” and takes them as they are and looks prospectively that many of them are or soon will be college-educated. He describes how he was sitting thru hours talking to such young people, noticing that neither reform clergy, nor aguda rabbis would be able to address their questions.
2) he is not suggesting “lite” movement, he is always quoting and using his grandfather as an ideal. He defines the difference in the following way: agudah is trying to ignore the world around them. He says – if we claim that we have Truth from Hashem, we should not be hiding in caves, but rather learn to address problems of modernity.
Now, looking back at almost a century of this disagreement – agudah definitely had tremendous success in saving people from assimilation and growing large communities. Definitely, many from those communities would have likely assimilated without agudah approach. RJBS’s approach worked well for some people, but probably not so well for others. At the same time, it attracted a lot of people who would not ever understand agudah (or as RJBS put it – agudah will not be able to answer their questions). But, on the main question – are we actually representing Hashem’s Truth, RJBS seems to be on target – Jews always addressed the world events of their times. It is hard to imagine that Hashem lead the world thru so many developments during last several hundreds years, and he really wants Yidden to ignore all these events and continue reviewing laws of roman avodah zorah without addressing the modern forms.
Baruch > he doesn’t know if he wants to honor his NATO agreements,
top the countries that do not spend enough for defence. Why not turn the question around and be surprised that so many countries do not feel they need US/NATO cooperation so do not bother spending 3% of their GDP on defence.
I just don’t understand what stops the OP from attaching his laptop in the public area of the house and then discuss the filters.
Baruch, Chaim, I feel your anxiety about what is happening. Megillah/Purim is about that – we experience both a win and anxiety about threats.
So, nor you nor I know what is going to happen and what the effect of current US government will be. We can, though, analyze previous T administration and compare it Obama/Biden and previous Bush…T had no big wars and major advances for Israel in diplomacy. I am not claiming that he scared off Putin and ayatollahs, but at least he did not cause any major losses. In internal politics, he attempted reasonable changes but was only marginally successful. Under O/B, things are slowly and predictably going the wrong way. US was losing ground all over the world, all kind of tyrants were getting wins. In internal politics, all kind of stupid things and spending was happening, with no hope ahead. Under Bush 2, there were lots of good intentions, but results were mixed.
So, currently, in the world politics, we can only hope that T’s negotiating skills lead to good results. We only have his previous term as a hope, so let’s give him some benefit of doubt. In internal politics, he is doing a lot of things that majority of population wants. if he is overreaching, there is hope (again based on experience) that he is responsive to feedback from voters and stock market.
yankel, a great point about Rambam.
So, a similar approach can be applied to non-religious Zionists (not RZ as you say): those were people who grew in the middle of assimilation, and, instead of fighting for “better world” in Russia and Germany like many other Jews did – they directed their efforts to help their Jewish brothers. Take Hertzl, for example. He is a pure tinok shenishba, grew up totally assimilated. In our times, he might have walked into a chabad house on campus and would be dancing for Moschiach right now. But there was no Chabad house in Vienna …So, were RZ wrong when looking with such redeeming attitude towards non-religious Zionists? I don’t think there is no clear right or wrong here. Depends on a person, it is one or another, and in some middle cases, both attitudes may be legitimate. I suspect the hardened attitudes pro- and contra- go back to European scene where there was a political fight between different groups – and we inherited those attitudes even if there is no good reason for us to fight about it.
Baruch > Trump has normalized the lunatic right.
Given how close recent elections are, it is inevitable that the lunatic side of either party is going to matter. Biden was constrained in his ME policies by arab voters in just one state – MI… Jews used to be decisive in FL but it is not a battleground state any more. Maybe Jews should move to PA in big numbers to matter.
There are also lunatics that are party-neutral. Trump moved a lot of them from being seekers of Dem giveaways to aggrieved fighters with immigrants.
Trump can’t even boast about his vaccine development – because anti-vaccine kooks are on his side. Anybody noticed – in his recent speech, he mentioned – “even if I were to save the world from a disease”. I think he meant the vaccine that he could not name.AAQ> Start with spending time with the child
Daas> The OP in this case is the childFair comment! I commend the OP that he is looking for the solutions himself.
In this case, spend more time with his parents!
R Twersky writes about a child of a psychologist who came to his father saying: I saved $100 already, can I use it to have an hour of your time?Daas > It’s expensive to develop and constantly update the software,
Passive defense is sometimes necessary, but it is a losing fight. Don’t hope that some software will solve the kid’s problems. Start with spending time with the child, then teach him to use computers for things that are both good and interesting, then supervise him by keeping computer in the living room, and – only then – consider adding filters if necessary.
why does a family need all these devices?
to stay constantly connected with friends after school? Definitely, not necessary, especially for boys.> Large screen in the living room might not be a bad idea, but it is not the answer for a struggling bochur
why? what is your struggling bochur going to do with the screen in front of his parents and siblings?
Having screen in a public place is one of the first recommendations from one of the organizations who work to deal with this issue.
If things moved too far, they suggest for parents to negotiate – buy some fancy new device and any other benefits in exchange for
keeping device in the public place. Additional safeguard – have more than child per room, even if you can afford to have separate rooms.When you suggest filtering in the privacy of his own room instead of monitoring by the family, you are outsourcing family to some filter
and webchaver… this should not be your first line of defence. Just start using computers together with kids, modeling for them what good
things you can do. Post about it on YWN together 🙂tzedikis > Prayers are the most significant of all and you want to put a gun and harm someone whose soul and heart has been trained to sweetness Torah, and contemplation
If there were a consensus among Israeli Jews that they want a certain group to fight, and a certain group to learn and daven for them, that will be a great situation. This is like Yassachar/Zevulun agreement – that both sides sign. It is a contract, not just an agadah that one side can invoke unilaterally.
It seems that currently there is no such consensus. Then, every group need to fulfil their share. Maybe the group that thinks their learning is zechus for others, should be more outgoing in providing Torah learning, chesed, tefilos to the others – and hope that this will be appreciated. At minimum, have explicit tefilos for Tzahal in your shul; go bring food and medical supplies to the soldiers; and teach them some Torah and halochos of being in the army.Here is an example of cross-camp halachik cooperation:
R Ovadia Yosef has a teshuva whether a couple in Israel who got married outside of Rabanut requires a get (it is probably was some sort of a joke marriage between non-religious Israelis) and whether the lady is considered grusha for a kohen. He paskens that because Israeli Rabbanut requires marriage to be conducted through them, and the Hatan acknowledge their power when saying “al dat Moshe v _Yisrael_”, then the marriage is not valid.A little Trump Purim Torah: Rav and Shmuel disagree whether it was smart or stupid for Ahashverosh to entertain out of town guests first. The assumption there is that the in-towners will be just later. Maybe we are talking about populism here – Ahashverosh, an outsider himself, comes to elevate and flatter his populist “base” at the expense of the elite in the Capital.
It is great that we seem to have a majority here that are ready to accept the other side as being stam wrong and not kefirah.
The next question is who is right.
First version is – under the circumstances of the times someone lived and information he had, was someone right? In this case, most of those rabbonim were right in their own way, provided they were baki b’Torah and were able to approach the issues honestly. You go to shoftim of your times. Sanhedrin might need to bring a karbon if they make a mistake. So, if someone was a great Rav in all other aspects, he had a right to pasken according to his understanding. Should the Rabbis work hard to obtain military information about relative strength of Nazi, Soviet, and Polish army to figure out that Polish cavalry was doomed against tanks? Looking from our times – maybe, but nobody did. If they did ask Polish experts at the time, the answer was wrong.
Second version – what is the right decision from Hashem’s POV? I humbly think that we are not yet able to answer this question yet. The history is still being developed. When Jews started building second BM, there was abundant rain at night and they, thus, felt that there is Hashem’s brocha upon their work. Thus, (1) before the rain, they were not sure, (2) you need to watch for hidden signs. Are modern Zionists or modern Haredim experiencing hidden miracles? Maybe both are – Israel is a blooming country and Haredi yeshivos are full of students, all bli ayn harah.
Could they both be right? R Soloveitchik writes that one and same kohen godol has a tzitz (symbol of halachik decisions) and a choshen (symbol of politicla decisions). He says that “in our times” (1950s) the problem is that you have kohanim with tzitz (yeshovos) and kohanim with choshen (zionist politicians) trying to work on their own, ignoring the others.
yankel > But — Zionism is wrong but NOT heresy.
Yankel, what is “wrong”?
Are we talking about bringing Yidden into Palestine under a guide of non-religious Zionists? Imagine, Aguda would have called for more observant Jews to join that movement. In hindsight, not only this would have saved those Yidden from death under Nazis and Soviets, but would also make Yishuv much more observant. We know now that first Mizrachi and later Degel HaTorah joined government, so it was not a lost cause. Think if there were way more religious Jews in Israel, how different Israeli government and policies would be. Of course, we can’t blame gedolim of Europe that they did not predict the terrible future awaiting the community, they were not neviim. But also, I think, they saw immediate danger from engaging with non-religious Zionists, and it was hard to foresee how democracy is going to work in future Israel, with ability to influence the government even when you are in a minority. Jews did not have experience of democratic self-government, so it was a huge risk.HaKatan> In fact, Rabbi Dr. Soloveitchik acknowledged that he was breaking from his (rather strong anti-Zionist) mesorah in doing so, and the gedolim did not agree.
I think he does acknowledge this difference from his grandfather (but not his father). It does not mean that he abandoned his grandfather’s Torah. In multiple places, he brings his grandfather’s ideas, explains them, uses them as a guide. Every generation has their own issues to deal with, you don’t expect every rav to just confirm what his grandfather said. For example, when outlining his plans for YU Rabbinical school, he focuses on a streamlined system preparing multitude of local rabbis for many small communities that lacked them – so that they are able to do basics according to halakha and be attractive to American Jews: run the shul, say dvar Torah on shabbos, deal with kiddushin, and refer get cases appropriately. He contrasts it with Litvishe yeshivas (in Lita), where he says, in addition to gadlus of certain individuals, you had people who were hanging around for decades without any specific learning and outcome achieved.
Anyway, I have a feeling that your references here reflect that you read articles arguing against the Rav on specific controversial topics. I don’t think you ever opened an article by him.
Repeating myself as several people repeated the same – do not use phone, do not use laptop in your room. Put a desktop (or at least attach your laptop) in the living room where others can see what you are doing. Several people might have a whole row where you’ll be successfully using laptop to access torah materials; national geographic; and SAT prep classes. Also, have that laptop being used by several people in the same account. And put opendns and safety options into your search engine.
you should also put your laptop (or better desktop with a large screen) in a living room so that others in your family see your screen.
opendns is free
yankel, thanks for trying to find a consensus. You need to define what “zionism” is and what “bad” is. If we talk about pre/poast war period, we are mostly talking about pre/early Israeli government. I think everyone agrees that they are “not part of Torah”. R Soloveitchik describes how a non-Jewish kid was watching with them an Israeli minister during 1950s pre-war events saying that he has faith in British minister and “Arab youth” that they’ll not savagely deal with Jews. The kid remarked “I would put more faith in G-d of Abraham” …
related questions are
– is it appropriate to cooperate with them to achieve better outcomes. In one narrative: Mizrachi thought so from the beginning and achieved a lot by both being in the government and quitting it when they could not agree. And Rav Schach and others agreed to that policy many years later. (I think this narrative is too simplistic, but still has something to think about).– are there any redeeming qualities in the Z leaders and their followers? I think this is where opinions differ the most.
Baruch> Seriously one benefit of Biden was that we could ignore him.
it is the difference between a hospice/drug dealer v. a doctor. Biden soothed everyone with excuses – there was no other way out of Afghanistan; we sternly warned Putin but it did not help; I did not find vaccines in the oval office; inflation is supply chain disruption, no just transitory, not just us everywhere, oh look it is already ending; borders are closed, they were open under everyone, look we are already closing them… Trump is trying to address the issues. Is there risk? Sure. Can he be wrong? Sure. Hopefully, he corrects, including by the voter feedback.
here is some history between early zionists and Rav Chaim Brisker
In 1904, years before Menachem Begin was born, Theodor Herzl, the founder of modern Zionism died, and Zev Dov Begin, one of the leaders of the Brisk kehila, wanted to hold a memorial service in the main shul. Rav Chaim Brisker said no and locked the shul. Menachem Begin’s father and his friend, Mordechai Schneidermann (whose grandson Ariel Sharon would later play a powerful role in Menachem’s life) broke the lock of Rav Chaim Soloveitchik’s synagogue to conduct a service in Herzl’s memory.
Does that mean that Begin’s father was not respectful of the Rav? When Begin visited the United States as prime minister, he visited the great rabbis of the Agudah in Rav Moshe Feinstein’s home. He also paid a call on the Lubavitcher Rebbe and held a meeting with Rav Yosef Dov Solovietchik, who insisted on coming to meet Begin, not the reverse. Rabbi Soloveitchik reminded Menachem Begin of the incident in which his father had disobeyed Rav Soloveitchik’s grandfather. The Rav told him that, in the family, they said that this was the one and only time the elder Begin did not follow the Brisker Rav’s guidance in regards to the kehila. Menachem used to tell another story of how his father and the Rav were walking together, and an anti-Semite began harassing the Rav. Zev Dov Begin took his walking stick and hit the gentile over the head. He went to jail, but he was proud that he stood up for the honor of a Jew.
second part:
Yet, not long after this incident, in 1954 or 1955, Rav Aharon reached out again to him and enlisted him in efforts to raise funds for Chinuch Atzmai. The high point came at the first Chinuch Atzmai dinner where Rav Soloveitchik made the most remarkable speech I have ever heard…[R. Soloveitchik] then lavished praise on Rav Aharon, comparing him in elaborate language, first to the Vilna Gaon, then to Rav Akiva Eger and finally to his zeide, Rav Chaim. I was standing directly behind Rav Aharon as Rav Soloveitchik spoke and as each of these comparisons were made, Rav Aharon tugged at Rav Soloveitchik’s jacket with one hand and implored him to stop and with the other hand he pounded on the table and intoned repeatedly, “Das iz nisht emes, das iz nisht emes.” As I looked more closely at Rav Aharon, I saw that he was crying…
here is from 1955:
After more than a half hour of futile effort to get Rav Soloveitchik to publicly oppose giyus banos [female draft into the IDF], Rav Aharon [Kotler] came up with the following brilliancy, of course in Yiddish. He said, Bostoner Rav [R. Soloveitchik], imagine that instead of the three of us discussing this issue, there were another three who were judging the appropriateness of drafting girls into military service. Instead of the Bostoner Rav, there was your zeyde, Reb Chaim. Instead of the Radiner Rosh Yeshiva [R. Mendel Zaks], there was your father-in-law, the Chafetz Chaim. Instead of me, there was my father-in-law, Rav Iser Zalman Meltzer. Bostoner Rav, what would your zeyde have said?This masterstroke did not result in a shift in Rav Soloveitchik’s position. He got up and said that he had to leave, “Kletsker Rosh Yeshiva and Radiner Rosh Yeshiva, a gutten tag” and left.
HaKatan, you keep bringing those who disagreed with RYBS and he would agree with you (as he answered the question whether his secular learning interferes with his Torah learning, he replied – when other T’Ch learn, I learn; when others tell lashon hora about me, I study philosophy). But, as mentioned, R Kotler’s position was somewhat nuanced.
I came up to seemingly a factual story – when Rav initiated Talmud Class for college girls in the 1970s, R Schwab and some other Rabonim were considering a cherem and wanted to have R Moshe onboard. Some of Rav’s students went to R Moshe hoping to explain that they are not initiating “new reform”, R Moshe dismissed their defense and said “r Soloveitchik’s teaching approach does not require my defense”. Cherem did not materialize. Seems that we can learn from this
(1) R Moshe respected RYBS’s approach even if it was different from his. Possibly because they were addressing different audiences.
(2) R Schwab and others maybe did not like RYBS’s approach but did not consider him a heretic at least until 1970s (and RYBS was a public figure from 1930s).
(3) a harrowing lack of communication between the gedolim from my perspective. Why didn’t they get in the same room or a conference call and discuss all views and implications?Of course sending monthly checks for the same amount should have lower overhead than a real insurance.
1% known error? So if you pay 20 bills monthly on autopay, you will somehow miss 2 payments every year? Those two mosdos will not be happy.
HaKatan refers to specific sources arguing against r Soloveitchik. How do they argue? Do they use the same terms as you or do they simply argue with the viewpoint? And I hope you are using moderate sources that I am interested in. We are already established that there are extreme views on both sides that fully reject the opposite view. The question is that what is the position of the moderates, how do they think of the both extremes.
Incidently, while researching this issue, I saw a reference that r Aaron Soloveitchik wrote after his brother’s petirah in response to what he saw as disrespectful article about him. Does anyone have this article? Not sure whether it is in English or Yiddish. This would be a source that both sides could respect, even if not totally objective.
Actually, Sesame Street in Iraq may be not bad. During Reagan times, we subsidized radio propaganda towards the Soviet Block and it was a great source of information there and presumably contributed to their downfall . Maybe, you want some edgier than Sesame Street, but maybe that is the level that works for current generation …
Daas,
I think they want to have some sort of certification and, hopefully, meaningful education. They want stop you from offering a shidduch same way as hairdresser union is not going to stop movers from cutting their child’s hair (or will they?).Maybe, instead of certification, we can have disclosures of education, endorsements by rabbis, (verifiable) statistics – 100 shidduchim based on 10,000 dates .. although even that might call people to fudge their numbers … not sure about endorsements also – I asked one rav who, bli ayin hara, already married double digits of children, he shrugged: “shadchanim did not work out for any of mine”.
coffee > Extra kneich to Aaq if GH told you not to believe me
?! cool down your coffee. GH and my posts came in the same batch. I do not get private previews from the mods. And when do I do as I am told by either hagadol or hakatan.
Chaim > The Ashkenazim joined the govt way before R shach . The imeri emes sent R itcha Meir levin to the kneeset. R shach came into the picture after Beagin won
you are right. they supported from outside of the government without joining. Still. R Schach’s position was a change from the previous one. Was previous position conditioned on what party was in charge? After all, Begin was still a Zionist … I am bringing this as an example that very strong position can suddenly change over time…
Note that R Schach did not have any illusions about the government. Begin offered to fully support charedi yeshivos the same way as other schools. Charedi politicians were very happy – but R Schach said to refuse full support. His rationale: you will dismantle your financial support network and when a government changes and takes away the benefits, you will have to close yeshivos.
Chaim > Firstly yes R kook is relevant
And ZSK similar.I am thinking it is a stretch to try to have antiZ acknowledge R Kook and similar rabonim. It would be easier to have a dialog about Rabbonim that were well known to have respectful relationships (even with disagreements) with Rabbonim antiZs consistently recognize.
ZSK > They also (incorrectly) lump ideologically secularist Zionism together with Religious Zionism
Right. That is why I would advise these guys to go open a sefer from the Rabbonim they can accept and then let’s have an informed discussion. Let them point out what exactly they disagree, how R Yoel argues on R Soloveitchik and let us understand those disagreements. I am shocked, shocked that they are not showing any signs that they opened a sefer. It is not osur to read a kosher sefer that you disagree with. Beis Shammai & Beis Hillel knew other’s halochos.
Gadol, there is a yeshiva l’maalah (see Taanis ~ 20) that sends shalom to Rava before every Yom Kippur; to Abaye before every Shabbos; and to an erliche bloodletter – every day. So, I am sure there is a hashgocha l’maalah that visits most famous restaurants every year and small ehrliche kebabbers every day.