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Asking for higher quality of baalei teshuva rather than quantity is not an answer when he have huge swaths of Yidden literally disappearing. If you think you can do better quality, go do it, rather than criticize other efforts.
I see commonality here on several subjects – do we look at a treif object (feminism/socialism/zionism) and see the worst manifestation of it, or do we try to see possible positive elements that might be motivating some of the adherents. This is nothing new – avoda zara started as an attempt to show respect to Hashem’s messengers; some religions started/ or became popular as misguided version of Jewish religion…
I think the hiluk is in timing: when Inquisition was chasing us it was not the time to ponder their Jewish roots; when commies were sending Yidden to gulag and closing schools it was not the time to discuss with them the betterment of the world … But, as I understand Lubavicher Rebbe quoted here, one can look at person’s motivations and try to find and strengthen the right things. As one (non-L, yeshivish) Rav told me, he was sometimes asked by non-religious people whether he is a “Zionist”. He did not want to sully the good part of it, so he responds: yes, as in “hamehazir shhinaso l’tzion”.
Ze, Chaim Berlin did not live in Berlin, he was born in Volozhin and niftar in Yerushalaim, being a chief Rabbi of _Moscow_ in between, so you should be ok with that!
N0, I think you are right. Modernity is plagued by ideologies, with people creating fake theories to justify what they are doing and both Z and our esteemed poster are doing a similar thing. It is not a surprise at all, in this context, that people bitterly opposing each other, have similar features. Nazis Y’Sh rose as opposition to communists Y’Sh but created a very similar movement.
Neville,
I was pointing out possible difference between Mizrachi – religious zionists, and other movements. This is in response to a poster who claims any association w/ religious zionism would be condemned by gedolim.According to a wiki, there seems to be 4 major school networks in 1920s Poland – Aguda that Chofetz Chaim presumably advocates for, tarbut, yidishist, and mizrachi. I looked further and I see multiple references against the first 2 and none so far against mizrachi. It seems also that more than half of kids went to Polish gymnasiums that are also mentioned but less, maybe this is more about girls, not sure.
In one letter, he explains what these two schools do – they sound Jewish to parents who do not pay attention, but they tell made-up stories unrelated to what Chumash says exactly, like Lavan having pity to Yaakov and not attacking him.
I am also seeing now a photo of 1919 mizrachi teachers conference and they are dressed frummer than 1950s Lakewood.
DaMoshe, amazing story! Thanks for sharing.
RBZS, so you do know the answer. Witnessing Rav’s behavior is one of the major ways to learn the halakha. It is a wrong idea that learning have to be from books, it is preferred to learn it from T’Ch – unless you suspect that R Moshe was under duress, or it was a wedding of a princess, or R Moshe (H’V) is disqualified by the virtue of having a bas going to college, or a bas bito learning Gemora L’A.
For those who want to take their words back, know that the eye is watching and recording it at archive org periodically. This is not taking into account NSA and FBI … But I think this is why we cherish this anonymous forum that people can post things they are thinking about and can get honest (and more) feedback from fellow posters. On many issues, you would be reluctant to propose an idea to your IRL friends and they may be reluctant to point the contrarian views to you. So, if you end up realizing that you said something that was not accepted, you may change your opinion, or you may change how you argue your case.
We mentioned r Elchonon here who followed in footsteps of Chofetz Chaim in evaluating grim reality of 1900s … interestingly, Chofetz Chaim repeats in his letters again and again about danger of sending kids to wrong schools and a need to have at least one kosher cheder in every town. I saw him specifically naming two treif groups: yidiishistes and tarbut, cultural Hebrew school. I don’t see Mizrahi mentioned. Did I miss it?
Incidentally, his definition of a kosher school: learning chumash with Rashi without skipping any psukim. Double check whether your kids didn’t skip Dina or Tamar or Timna or gemora that doesn’t advise full time learning rashbi style
In Meron, you should follow minhagim of Rashbi, not of your shell. He didn’t listen to music from a box for sure
HaKatan,
1) Who made you and me judges over judges? the chief rabbi owes us to show us his internal teshuvos as much as the State of Israel owes us to show how their atom bomb (that they may or may not have) works.
2) I looked up who is on London B’D. Graduates of Gateshead, Ponevezh, Etz Chaim, former dayan in Lakewood and Monsey. What else matters? How do you not treat them with respect? It is very confusing.HaKatan, as mentioned above, previous UK CRs attending similar ceremonies. On your other point, if you have a T’Ch, you interpret his actions l tzad zchus as much as possible. In this case, this is more than one, and heads of the whole shomer-mitzvos community. It looks like you are triggered by the Z word for political reasons. Please review halochos of how Jews are supposed to live with each other from pre-Z times and then apply them, rationally, to our times.
HaKatan, we re not talking about Z word. We are talking about basic halocho – there is a shomer-mitzvos community in a large country; they have shuls, shoichets, cheders, gemora classes … they have a duly constituted beis din and Chief Rabbi (which US does not have, btw). They have a chazoko to deal with their king, they are not ignorami, they know how to ask shailos when they need to. That is all. You may disagree with them on any issue you want, but you have no right to dismiss them from the Jewish community. Torah is marashas kehilas Yaakov. You are worse than Yannai who made fun of an ignoramus, you are ignoring people who are more learnt than you are.
They are – UK is probably the closest partner and similar economy to US in the world. And I am talking solely about personal experiences here. There is definite effect of US on the world in politics, science, world wars, anti-communism, etc that might not have happened where it just a rich province of UK.
Reasonably non-controversial eruvim are available in EY and many “OOT” cities in US. So, it seems that the most “in townies” consist of either people, whose wives can’t walk to shul or park with a stroller on shabbos like everyone else or those who use possibly invalid eruvim? This is not worth the large selection of restaurants …
This seems to be a quote or paraphrase of R Elchonon about Z:
Nothing is asked of a Jew but national feeling. One who carries shekels and sings Hatikva is exempt from all the commandments of the Torah. Clearly, this approach is considered idolatrous in the eyes of Torah.This seems to be talking solely about anti-religious Z, not Mizrachi. Maybe, he takes on Mizrachi in some other place.
It is telling that HaKatan brings R Elchonon here. He was probably one of the most anti-Z gedolei of his generation. There were others who were more accommodating. Weird decision to cancel a Chief Rabbi of a large country because a website of the beis din that approved Rabbi’s decision has a reference to a movement that one of the gedolei disapproved 100 years ago. It is as if it is an impression of “frumkeit” if one finds someone else to denigrate, while there is no down-side of rejecting a large community of Yidden.
R Soloveichik analyzes what interactions with christians are appropriate. He absolutely forbids any interaction about theology – no disputes, discussions, finding common points, etc. When catholics were preparing to renounce their position that Jews are in error and recognize us as “older brother”, he advised against attending: it is their problem, if they want to teshuva gezunte heig, we do not want them to expect any concessions in return! At the same time, we are interested in bettering the world and should absolutely have a dialog related to solving the issues of the society, world peace, etc.
found a good story about BB 116, why “chochom”
Rav Shlomo Zalman smiled back at the happy father and remarked, “Chazal tell us in Bava Basra 116 that if someone has a sick person among the people of his household, he should go to the ‘chochom’ and ask that he beseech Hashem to have mercy on the sufferer. “The language here seems strange. Why not direct someone to go to a tzaddik? Why a chochom? I once heard a tongue-in-cheek answer from Rav Eliyahu Kletzkin from Lublin. He explained that if a person goes to a tzaddik and the sick man recovers, the tzaddik could mistakenly think he is a baal mofes. For this reason it adjures one to go to a chocham. A wise man understands that this came from Hashem and will not think of himself as a baal mofes!”HaKatan,
I understand your passion and I see that you can come to the conclusions quiet logically – except that I disagree with your premises. As Avira, I also witnessed multiple Rabonim of different flavors, all refer to UK beis din with CRs with appropriate respect. Maybe, you are not aware how legal process work. London Beis Din _is_ the one that determines halocho there. If they have a need to consult someone else, rest assured, they will do that without your and mine advice. If you are in London, you follow their regulations. Just because you see something on the website that you disagree with does not allow you to disrespect a choshuv beis din.As already mentioned, take pairs of countries that have similar cultures but different government for some time: North and South Korea, West and East Germany, Lithuania and Belarus, China and Taiwan, etc and compare them.
One comparison – US v. UK or Canada, probably shows that American revolution is somewhat over-rated from this point of view – societies are relatively similar.
> Properly filing taxes is more important than keeping kosher,
Chofetz Chaim writes about letzanim who somehow think that kashrus is min ha Torah, while other lavim from the torah are, in his words “eitza tova”.
Specifically, when Polish government put “stringent” requirements on the cleanliness of Mikvaos, he suggeste to lobby Polish politicians, but also to try to collect funds to make mikvas according to the new laws, no suggestions to go around the new rules.
Re: CTL,
I can’t fully discuss what exactly his upbringing was, I was not there. I do agree that pre-war and later American Jewish life was in bad state. I heard from R Nosson Sherman that his father would tell his elderly members of the shiur to come even during bad weather – “because who knows whether there will be a shiur after you”. Not clear where things were better. Chofetz Chaim letters c. 1920 from Poland talk about not sending kids to anti-religious schools, closer to 1930 he talks more and more about at least keeping Shabbos, Nida, having at least one kosher cheder per town, and even a suggestion for T’Ch to travel to different towns because maybe people who did not listen to one T’Ch would listen to another one.Did things improve by now? On one hand yes, we have big observant communities. On the other hand, “the rest” of the Jews look completely lost, as Chofetz Chaim was warning about. In 1960-90s there were a significant number of baalei teshuva, which I think is not happening to the same degree now.
Right, to a chacham – not a “tzadik” – who will “ikaper” the anger of Hashem… So, if Hashem is angry at a person (and commentaries follow this line), maybe the first thing Chacham could do is figure out what the anger is about and help defend the sick person, possibly by giving him understanding what H’ is angry about. I don’t see commentaries saying that, but this sounds like peshat.
I am not sure if “sick person in his house” is a euphemism, meaning a person himself, or an adult is responsible for the health of his household?
Shenei Luchot HaBerit mentions this in passing when talking about health, starting with that the best refuah is prevention and taking care of his health even in small matters, and, at the end, it is all b’ yadei shamaim, daven, go to Chacham. So, maybe understanding of the Gemora is that you go to the Chahcam if you can’t figure it out and fix yourself.
> So, the working assumption by anyone who at least wants to be G-d-fearing, is that this was a tremendous chilul Hashem.
So, maybe it is healthy that Yidden are naturally appalled by what they think is hillul Hashem. There are mashalim about a peasant visiting a king and not understanding what is going on there (and not even tihnking of a shidduch with the princess). So, it is not surprising that a normal Yid from Brooklyn can’t relate to dilemmas of a Rav at the king’s table. It is worse in the circles where the reaction is “great, let’s go party with the king and marry his princesses”. Still, in older times, a Yid from the shtetl will not have a chance to disparage a shtadlan who represents him, he would simply not know about him. In our days, facebook is in every shtetl. So, somehow, our educational system need to prepare Yidden to either learn halochos of malchus or at least halochos of kavod haRa, even if the Rav is not from his shtetl. Otherwise, we increase machlokes in Israel.
this site allows a lot of filtering – by state, age. type of area, ethnic groups. I looked at the “healthier” group – 25-35 y.o.
There is less seasonality in 2018-2019 – deaths are in 1000-1200/week for 2018-19, then there is a clear jump in March 2020 to 1400-1600 band, reaching 1800 in Sep 2021, and going back to pre-covid numbers in Feb 2023.
For ages 5-14, need to smooth data to see the trend but still there is one – pre-covid 105/week
increased to 125/week starting first week of June 2020 (end of school year at home) and staying similarly elevated until Feb 2023 and normal now.I think it could be last several weeks of data is not final and could be adjusted, but the trend is healthy for the last several months.
You don’t have to go to this crazy gov site, but I just wanted to make sure I am looking at raw data and not corrected by some web developers.
CDC has a site Provisional Mortality Statistics, 2018 through Last Month Results. I plotted weekly total deaths in USA by week.
2018 and 2019 have winter peaks of 67K and 58K and summer lowers of 50K both.
2020 jumped from 60K to 80k for several weeks, from March to May;
again from Oct 2020 to Feb 2021, reaching 90K in the middle of that (with vaccine)
then from July 2021 to Feb 2022 with a peak of 85K at the top (delta)
then Nov 2022 to Feb 2023 with a smaller peak of 70K (Omircon)lowest level during summers of 2021 and 2022 is 57K v. 50K in previous years.
plots going to normal previous levels in the last 2 months when data is available – Feb, March 2023 (this does not mean that there are no covid attributed deaths, as there is expected decline due to vulnerable peopple who died 1-2 years before their time).
Interesting example of how loshon hara works: I think OP and supporting him Avira were satisfoed when it turned out there is an actual beis din in the far away England that issues psakim, but others were inspired by their ideas and continue arguing the case despite the evidence.
Neville, your question is already addressed in Mishna. An Yid was approached by Samaritans and paid money to confuse Rabban Gamliel about rosh hodesh. He took the money and fulfilled the deal – told the beis din that he saw a cow in the sky, etc. The psak was that he did not have to return the money. So, maybe you can sign up so that they pay you to convert other Yidden, take 1000 books and use them to heat your house. win-win-win.
I would like to defend CTL. I do not agree with many of his political positions, but I think he is reflecting an authentic Jewish tradition, mostly Yakkish – but not only – of Jews being comfortable both with Jewish sources and world culture. This may sound ridiculous if your family comes from the Pale or Hungarian villages, or Yemen, or Persia, or if your information comes from teachers from same places, but not if your family comes from London, Paris, Berlin, Vienna, Prague, Warsaw, Petersburg … True, many Jews in the latter areas ended with assimilation, but (a) those who survived are worth respect, and (b) a lot of people from other areas also did not end well.
What is effect of WFH on Brooklyn traffic? In many cities there are now less people in downtowns and there is less weekday traffic on major highways out of traffic, and probably also on weekends as people can have a weekend the whole week. I don’t think the traffic might fall below the levels of R Moshe’s time, though.
Neville > In Manhattan, the entirety of the frum, non-MO tzibbur follows his psak …
this is no good scotsman fallacy: you exclude frum MO from the tzibbur and now you can say “entirely”
[I have no dog in this food fight: personally do not use this eruv and do not care for the term “frum” ]does he mean where we are hated now or where we were ever hated? Spain has museums about the Jews they killed or expelled. Seemingly went around the world buying Jewish artifacts, and even desecrated gravestones of the Jews they prosecuted … New world mostly? Iceland, Finland, India, China, Japan, Central Africa?
That explains it! L kavod malchus, the lord rav pretended that this Rambam doesn’t apply to kings, so he let future king to be somewhat meikel in his marriage, leading to the king being good to Yidden for the remaining 46 years of his monarchy. See how much wisdom is required in interacting with them? Do you really think such shailos should go to the most esteemed litvishe poskim who dealt with Russian kings and comissars or to London beisdin who are boke in Anglican kings marriage minhagim from the time of Henry the 8th?
Neville, I don’t think we talked before here. I can add that I was zoche to participate in earlier internet forums – before yeshiva bochrim got phones, and the Jewish discussions included people from yeshivish world to apikoiresem mamash, but the tone of (better) discussions was higher. People were not afraird to quote sources and discuss their views, without so much bashing others for the temerity to be associated with that or this group. I may be mis-remembering, but sometimes I see here people talking past each other, simply repeating their sources, be it CNN or Yated. I don’t think there is value in doing that, everyone interested can read the originals. I always hope that there will be an actual discussion, and it does happen sometimes. Maybe, you can help us raise the elvel?
An article I read opined that R Jakobovits was more lenient here than R Mirvis – he would attend when he thought it is beneficial, not necessarily officially requested.
PS If R Jakobovits did not attend that wedding, he was 1) chacham, as over time monarch family would not look favorably at those who favored Diana, 2) thought halachikally that this marriage is not going to last and (not being a navi) presuming a get or an annulment , did not want the melech to have complications doe to presence of kosher witnesses at the wedding
> I’m questioning r. Mirvis. He’s not someone who I’m obligated to listen to or be mevatel daas to. And he’d be the first person to tell you that.
This phrase should be reversed “he is not obligated to listen to you”. He is a Rabbi in an official position. Were you to travel to UK, you would be bound by his positions in public. And just because he is “not your Rabbi”, does not mean that you can disrespect him. Hope you’ll review these halochos urgently with your posek in case your students will ask about the coronation this week. Let us know what he says!
The above would be true for any issue, but specifically here – do we expect R Mirvis to post a written teshuva that explains why we need to placate the King? Do you think King will relate to us better after he reads this teshuva? If MI-5 & 6 do not tell him, he can easily google himself for King and Chief Rabbi. I think this would be clear, as you say, for a Roman emperor. Things may not be as dramatic now, but world politics is still there, just in a different form.
> And why isn’t r. Mirvis releasing the name of the posek
I agree w/ DaMoshe. Our expectations of “transparency” are going overboard. We have a sensitive relationship between a Chief Rabbi and a King, whoever symbolic his powers are now. And some are demanding that the Rav provide a written notice, specifically by a posek personally approved by the poster. Would _anyone_ be privy to medieval discussions between shtadlanim and kings?! We might have some glimpse in later writings – that might be true or just a legend. They were not published on internet the same day.
We are to see melachim as a glimpse of how we relate to King of Kings. this particular message might be that we do not always understand how and why the King do what they do, and how to approach them the right way, and we need to keep our places, unless “we are commanded to attend”. And attend when we are.
From the Chief Rabbi’s tweet:
How times have changed…On 3 September 1189, Richard I was crowned King in Westminster Abbey. Jews were barred from attending, but in a spirit of heartfelt goodwill, some Jewish leaders arrived bearing gifts for the new king. They were informed that Jews were not welcome, whereupon Richard’s courtiers stripped and flogged them, and then flung them out of court.
A rumour spread that the King had given an order for all Jews to be attacked. While some Jews escaped, arsonists set fire to many Jewish homes, some Jews were forcibly converted, while others were given sanctuary in the Tower of London. Some thirty innocent Jews were senselessly murdered on the day of the Coronation, including Rabbi Jacob of Orléans, the most senior Rabbi in England at that time.
Biggest bonfire in Chicago was in 1871. I don’t know whether anyone blamed Jews.
> I think people who judge him have are one dimensional
> We still have yet to see a heter cited in the poskim to allow being jn a churchHow is the chief Rabbi not a decider here? This is his job, he is presumably qualified and, if he has a shaila, he may ask it. Presumably, Q&A will be private and not available for exposure on dailynews.
> Funny how the same people who don’t like it when Torah jews blindly follow gedolei yisroel,
I have not heard of gedolei yisroel asking people to blindly follow them. I am currently re-reading Chofetz Chaim’s letters, and he tries to patiently convince people of the things he is asking them to do. Maybe, you meant that others accuse you of blindly follow.
As to this case, I might think twice of the British Chief Rabbi tells _me_ to attend the coronation, but here it is his decision and his position. You may want to go and learn with someone halochos malchus, but people posting negative opinions about a duly appointed representative of Jewish kehilla sound like poshut apikoiresim, or l’tzad zechut, amei haaertz.
RebE,
read up on NATO currently trying to re-organize back into a defense alliance, exactly what T was asking them. See, for example, below. now, does it mean I know what he’ll do re:NATO in his next term, no I don’t. But it does not mean we should distort the record.Jens Stoltenberg 2019
And your leadership on defense spending is having a real impact. Since 2016, Canada and European allies have added $130 billion more to the defense budgets, and this number will increase to 400 billion U.S. dollars by 2024.Q What do you think about President Macron’s criticism about NATO, saying that it is “brain dead”?PRESIDENT TRUMP: Who said that?
Q President Macron.PRESIDENT TRUMP: .. Now, NATO serves a great purpose. It got to be unfair for the United States because the United States was paying a disproportionate amount. … I think that’s very insulting to a lot of different forces, including the man that does a very good job in running NATO.
No, it has a great purpose, especially with the fact that NATO is becoming much more flexible, in terms of what it looks at.Avira,
sorry, but this seems to be related to the topic. You mentioned it as something you students equate with becoming more observant. Some seem to be upset with nominally observant Yidden because they are not enlightened enough; others – with people who think dress is the enlightment people need, ortho-prax or not.Avram,
I mean that some “rebbes” might presume, with or without evidence, that kids need to be directed somewhere. I am not saying that this is always unhelpful. In many cases, it is. When I saw good teachers trying to affect students, they usually understood where the family was holding and tried to find ways for improvement. In other cases, teachers might just spew “humros” without having any idea what will happen to the kid. For a simple example, pulling kids away from a college track, or assuring kids and parents that their classes are “good enough” or “can wait”. I am sure that this is a good advise in many cases, saving kids from bad experiences, but one needs to know who you are talking to and maybe know a thing or two about colleges and professions.I brought above a dilemma from a conscientious educator who understood that a particular kid did not need a hat. His solution to make kid understand that others need hat may not be ideal, but at least showed some awareness of the dilemma.
Benefits of OOT for those looking for a kollel: there is usually just one eruv to argue about. I saw rabonim who pasken that eruv is ok, but I never saw them carrying. Is it a thing in NY area?
Avram,
lookin at pictures of R Kotler and others from 30s to 50s, Rav and other Rabonim are dressed differently from others. Others wear whatever was worn by reasonable people at their time – jackets, hats or caps, depending on time & place. 1936 photo of funeral of Rabbi Yeruchom Levovitz at Mir, most people are in lihjt-colored hats.You may also distinguish between “official” and causal photos. I see a yeshiva poster of individual photos for Mir in 1920s and everyone is in some sort of a hat. In summer camp, nobody is in a hat.
By now, and even then, ideological zionists you described are a part of Jews in EY. By now, they are similar to Jewish communities in any other country…
Also, we often blame divergent Jewish groups for everything wrong, but where did early secular, reform, etc came from? They are not some erev rav, they mostly came from same communities… granted behira and external pressures but what our communities were doing in part are responsible. Not just my opinion. Chofetz Chaim refused to greet rav from a town where Trotsky grew up. Berel Wein traces zionist attitude towards datiim to the history of Russian government forcing Kahal to provide soldiers into the army, leading to alienation between the poor and the community.
Research means papers published or at least preprinted by researchers who had access to raw data, know science and statistics, or hopefully all 3 of those. You can search for them on say scholar Google com, or medline, or archive org, researchnet and so on.
Ze, thanks, I see. Bravery is a good argument. Not being corrupt also. But this guy didn’t really risk his life standing up to dictators or something and he is independently wealthy from his grandpa Illegal businesses. Your comparison with reporters may be correct but this is really low bar. Read research papers instead of watching CNN and then compare knowledge and credibility
PS And this is not my opinion, but a quote from Chofetz Chaim. He may not be using the term “orthoprax” (how would that be in Yiddish?), but he says he is amazed by people who consider eating kosher a mitzva, but doing lashon hara, etc etza tova.